I'm smelting! I'm smelting!!

[Patrick L]

Took advantage of the wife and daughter being away for the day and mixed up some bullet alloy. I do 20-1 WW to tin by volume; 20 WW ingots to one tin ingot. My ingots are mini muffin size.

Here's my setup
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb157/patrickl_01/Smelting/GunStuff063.jpg
I would normally smelt totally outside, but drizzle was in the forecast. I had the garage doors open at both ends, plus one open window and had a floor fan going the whole time.

The 5 gallon buckets in the far corner, under the shelves, are full of clean WW ingots I smelted about 2 years ago. That's about a 10 year supply for me.


I am fortunate my dad (retired now) was a contractor by trade, so I have this neat plumbers pot

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb157/patrickl_01/Smelting/GunStuff061.jpg

Here's todays production, and this should last me 2-3 years. That .50 caliber can is HEAVY when its full and I could barely carry it to the casting area.
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb157/patrickl_01/Smelting/GunStuff062.jpg

I also had these bullets that need a second chance at a useful life. Some of them are from the recent .45 H&G 68 group buy that turned out to be mismachined. These yielded me about another half of a .50 cal can, so I'm good for awhile.
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb157/patrickl_01/Smelting/GunStuff064.jpg

Not a bad way to spend the day!

PS Oh, regarding the box of toys in the background, no I'm not stupid. I recently cleared out the attic and they are broken toys/junk waiting to be thrown out; I would never handle lead around my childrens' stuff!!!

[docone31]

Very little is more satisfying!

[crabo]

You just think you have enough to last 2 or 3 years!

[454PB]

What fun!

I'm curious......can you get that propane bottle refilled? I'm sure they wouldn't fill it where I live, it doesn't have the correct valving.

[Andy_P]

Thanks for the pics. I love smelting and I like seeing other operations. I'm the same way - my wife goes away for the weekend and I usually plan a smelting evening. It's a guy thing.

[Cloudpeak]

PS Oh, regarding the box of toys in the background, no I'm not stupid. I recently cleared out the attic and they are broken toys/junk waiting to be thrown out; I would never handle lead around my childrens' stuff!!!

Oh. I thought they were Chinese toys you were going to melt down into ingots[smilie=1:

Cloudpeak

[Orygun]

Smelting or is it rendering? I thought that we were going to call it smendering. :)

[Patrick L]

454PB wrote:

I'm curious......can you get that propane bottle refilled? I'm sure they wouldn't fill it where I live, it doesn't have the correct valving.

I have a friend who has a business that, among other things, does propane. He swears its OK to fill that because its a piece of construction equipment, and not for a barbeque cooker or something for home use. On the other hand, he also says too come when he's there to get it filled as his counter staff probably wouldn't do it anyway. So I really don't know. As long as he will do it for me, I'm in business. If that changes I guess I'll look into maybe a turkey fryer.

Cloudpeak wrote:

Oh. I thought they were Chinese toys you were going to melt down into ingots

Oh that's just BAD:lol:

[jimofaz]

Hi Patrick. Nice pics of your W-W rendering set-up. I especially like the elevated ingot moulds. I usually have my turkey fryer & ingot moulds set-up at ground level, and it can oftimes be difficult to pour molten alloy without some spillage, maybe due to the big Rowell ladle I use. My lower back is oftimes quite sore after an extended session too. Methinks I'll try your elevated ingot method next time I fire up the cooker.

Question: How did you arrive at your 20-1 ratio of W-W to tin? Did your bullet casting or range results steer you in this direction? Your ratio amounts to about 4.8% of added tin, which is much higher than I have seen recommended before your post. Most folks seem to believe, for whatever reason, that any more than 1.5 to 2% is a waste of expensive tin. An old wives tale perhaps? Enquiring minds want to know!

Thanks, Jim B.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Hi Patrick. Nice pics of your W-W rendering set-up. I especially like the elevated ingot moulds. I usually have my turkey fryer & ingot moulds set-up at ground level, and it can oftimes be difficult to pour molten alloy without some spillage, maybe due to the big Rowell ladle I use. My lower back is oftimes quite sore after an extended session too. Methinks I'll try your elevated ingot method next time I fire up the cooker.

Question: How did you arrive at your 20-1 ratio of W-W to tin? Did your bullet casting or range results steer you in this direction? Your ratio amounts to about 4.8% of added tin, which is much higher than I have seen recommended before your post. Most folks seem to believe, for whatever reason, that any more than 1.5 to 2% is a waste of expensive tin. An old wives tale perhaps? Enquiring minds want to know!

Thanks, Jim B.

Hi Jim. I'm not Patrick, but I can tell you this: The guy who literally wrote the book on commercial casting, Paul Moore, invented the alloy we commonly refer to as "Magnum" alloy. (It was originally called "Taracorp Magnum" because that's who he worked for...)

He wrote a book sometime back with the assistance of Magma Engineering (the company that makes most commercial bullet casting machines) that described why he picked the "magnum" ratio. To paraphrase, it said that alloy (92-2-6) created an alloy hard enough not to lead at magnum handgun velocities, which was also relatively cheap (because it was conservative of the expensive tin, especially when compared to something like Lyman's #2), and gave decent mould fill-out. This works for commercial casters - pretty boolits, cheap, that don't lead much of the time. (They still lead occasionally, and I think it is because of poor sizing, because they have to assume a one-size-fits-all diameter, whereas in some guns this doesn't work, and gas blow-by or other problems result in leading. IMO, again, I have no proof - this is just my theory - he added the extra 4% antimony to "convince" customers that the boolits were "hard enough" and any leading was not the boolits fault... Really it is probably a bad combination of boolit size and bore/cylinder throat...)

Now, some fellows here at CB have done some research on a very technical article written by Dennis Marshall that is in the Lyman handbooks. This paper and research seem to confirm that tin and antimony combine and form a compound in our typical boolit alloys. This compound creates hardening that results in usable boolits for our handgun and slower rifle loadings. The research here indicates that bringing a WW-based alloy up to between 1% to 4% of tin, creates all the effect you're going to get from WW alloy and tin. It also indicates the ratio of tin and antimony should be about equal to form this compound, so any tin or antimony in greater proportions than the other is "wasteful." They also said that any bigger than 92-4-4 was not going to greatly increase the hardness of the boolit. (Still helps, but at a much slower ratio of hardness to alloying elements you have to add.)

Lyman #2 alloy (90-5-5) was always said to be good to 1600, or at least that's the implication I took from the velocity limits they always said worked best with cast boolits. I can't proove it, but I also guesstimate that Lyman's #2 alloy was designed to give shiny, well-filled-out boolits from their moulds, so the casters could be proud of their creations and happy with Lyman moulds. Absolutely nothing wrong with that, and sometimes, when I want to show off some pretty boolits, I might up my tin content to 3.5-4%.

I've found that older WWs (like the ton of them I still have from the 60s when my dad was casting), have about 3 to 6 percent antimony, with the average probably being around 4%. The newer WWs (since I've been casting in the early 90s onwards) have an average of 2.5 to 3% antimony. Both have minimal tin, around .5% or less. After joining this site, I've changed my beliefs and opinions about alloys. For pistol boolits, I generally add 2% tin, by weight, to my mix of older and newer WWs. I find this gives me a little over 2% tin and I figure about 3-3.5% antimony. That gives a good-casting and sufficiently hard boolit for all my uses, which is primarily handgun with a little experimentation with rifle (30 Carbine, 7.62x39, 300 Whisper, and soon, 30-30, and someday, I hope, 30-40 US). My alloy should be good for velocities up to 1500fps I'd say, and it should still be soft enough to obturate at lower velocities, like down to maybe 700fps.

There's something about casting that is just such fun. It's a hobby in it's own right, and sometimes you want boolits that are cheap, sometimes you want them that shoot extra-good, and sometimes you just want them that look good so you can admire or show-off your handi-work. Adjusting the tin often addresses all of these issues... :mrgreen:

[Patrick L]

MMA10MM,

Thanks for some great info. It will cause me to rethink my ratios.

jimofaz,

To be honest, there is no real basis in testing for my mix. I think I read somewhere that 9 lbs of WW and 1 lb 50/50 solder was a recipe for Lyman #2. I just sort of extrapolated that 1/2 lb of tin to 9 1/2 lbs of base metal would be about 19:1, and 20:1 was close enough. I have alloyed like that for years without ever really thinking about it. After reading the above posted materials, I think this may indeed be wasteful of tin. Maybe the next time I cast I will halve the tin; ie 40:1 and see how well it does.

[jimofaz]

Many Thanks to both Michael & Patrick for some thoughtful new info to digest. I will definetely try upping my tin % and giving it a go. I might stop at 3.5% with the relatively new-made W-W I am currently rendering. Then again, once I find a good load I might play a little "what-if" and make up a pot full with a 4 or 5% tin adder. It can always be "thinned" back later if needs be. This will be done with loads under 1800 fps. Mostly well under. I plan to eventually run it thru the majority of my herd, including: .357 Mag, .45 ACP, .500 S&W, 7.55 x 55, 6.5 x 55, 8 x 57mm, .30-06, .30-40 Krag, .38-55, .45-70, .32 Special, and .35 Brown-Whelen. I have more than enough commercial 90-5-5 & linotype alloy to compare it against too. I'll let y'all know how it went...in about ten years or so! So much fun planned...so little time to do it all in! Keeps me outta' the bars anyway!
Thanks Guys, Jim B.

[mtgrs737]

The cast iron pot I use came from my dad also, and it looks just like the one you have. Those pots will hold a lot of lead and one should not begin to trust the wire handle on them for lifting. I like your elevated ingot setup, makes sence to me. Good luck!