H&R Officers Model Trapdoor

[Toymaker]

Recently bought a H&R Officers Model 1873 Springfield Trapdoor in excellent condition. I've had it out twice, first time to get it on paper and second time to start testing some loads. Really nice and I know this is going to be a fun rifle to shoot.

One thing is going to drive me nuts though. The rear ladder/Vernier sight doesn't have any graduations on it. The base is inletted into the wrist of the stock. It is adjustable for both elevation and windage. So far to make adjustments I use a No. 2 pencil to mark the sight position, make a slight adjustment, shoot, mark the position, adjust, shoot, etc. until the POI is where I want it. This is going to be a PIA!

I'm thinking I can always use a sharp tool to mark positions instead of a pencil. Or take it to a gunsmith friend who's a good machinist too and see if he can mill some markings into it. But finding a ladder/Vernier sight already with markings would be ideal. I do not want to mount a M1897 sight on the barrel, period. Not keen on expanding the inletting either.

Anyone have other ideas or know of a source for a sight that will fit and has markings?

[M-Tecs]

If you opt to have the sight marked laser engraving is the way to go.

[Toymaker]

Hadn't thought of that, M-Tecs. And I've a friend who does, or did, that. I'm guessing he still has the equipment. But he explained that it was actually a marking process rather than engraving. He "engraved" a couple of brass percussion cap holders for me but warned me that it would eventually wear off.

[M-Tecs]

I believe that depends on the strength of the laser. I am more familiar with the industrial ones. In some case they can be used as an engrave or a laser cutter.

https://www.permanentmarking.com/what-are-the-differences-between-laser-marking-laser-engraving-and-laser-etching/

[lkmcd1]

I bought this sight for my H&R officers model from https://stores.leeshavergunsmithing.com/
and I really like it. It was a direct replacement for the old sight, no trimming or in lettin required. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191123/e485d53e8f66e14a91c1688d94f224e7.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191123/8e98a5c04a16304df72b2785f9536270.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191123/1f5aaf88209703a85e771435fb8ef902.jpg

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[john.k]

Another option is photo etching.If you only need lines ,then you could easily etch it yourself....Of course ,any engraver ,including a beginner could chisel some graduations .

[grantharris1945]

Should be able to get another with a similar mounting base and graduations, maybe windage too


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[John Taylor]

I use a milling machine for marking sights and other tools. Grind an old broken end mill to look like a cold chisel with a relief. Held in a collet ( motor off). Set it to cut about .005" deep and scribe a line. Then move the table .025" and make another line. You can very the lines length for .050" and .1". Looks very professional with the lines showing silver with the blue background.

[John in PA]

If you can get hold of an original or repro PJ O'Hare sight micrometer, they can be made to work pretty much with any tang or other elevating sight. Handy little gadget, and quite precise.
Depth gauge on a dial caliper works well also, but hard to stick in your pocket. Set the sight for the ranges/loads you use most often and us a tungsten carbide scribe to mark the staff.

[TCLouis]

Over time, how consistent is the sight mounted in wood rather than ON metal.

[Toymaker]

Ikmcd1 - Lee made a few of those sights but they're gone now. He did have one that he could modify to fit the existing base so I got that.
TCLouis - I have thoughts and concerns about that too. So a little bedding compound is going to help with stability.

HOWEVER, another issue has arisen. During testing the release lever to open the trap door stopped working … and there was a live round in the chamber. Making sure the door was closed and a squeeze of the trigger took care of one issue.

It appeared that the lever was rotating freely on the bar. Removing the stock made examination easier and, indeed, the lever was moving freely. I was able to pull it off the bar and upon examination determined that it was only a friction fit of the lever onto the bar.

I've an idea for a fix but would appreciate anyone's thoughts, especially if you've had this issue.

[M-Tecs]

On the H&R's they changed the design. They have two versions. One used a roll pin and the other one used a set screw. I will post some fixes later when I get home.

[Toymaker]

Thank you, M-Tecs. Looking forward to seeing what you have.

[M-Tecs]

https://www.trapdoorcollector.com//cgi-bin/afrasca/bulletin/config.pl?read=38347

https://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1278855505

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=390137

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?21373-about-to-kick-a-lid-off

[Toymaker]

THANK YOU, M-TECS !!!
I have not had the issue with the door popping open and ejecting the cartridge (auto eject) but I take the information in the articles as a warning. May decide to take one of their corrective actions before it happens.
The information about the thumb latch rotating freely on the shaft is exactly what I'm up against now. The corrections were good suggestions. I'm going to talk to a friend of mine who is a machinist and we'll review the corrections. I'll let him suggest what he considers the best.
Again, thanks for the help. Appreciate it.

[lkmcd1]

This is my understanding of the breech block issues based on my H&R officers model ......

Some of the H&R Trapdoor reproductions may have 2 different issues related to the breech block opening during firing.

1. The breech block latching cam can become loose and rotate on the shaft that passes through the cam and latch handle and allow the breech block to open.

2. The breech block latch handle can become loose and rotate on the shaft that operates the cam and the allow breech block to open during firing.

FYI, I bought my gun used about 4 years ago and it appeared to be unfired and I have shot about 500 rounds through this rifle, black powder light loads of around 45grains.

Regarding issue 1.

I read everything I could about the issue of the cam latch rotating on the shaft and before firing it I had my gunsmith drill and tap the cam and latch shaft. Now the cam is positively attached to the shaft with a 4-40 set screw that spans through the shaft into the cam.

Regarding issue 2.

I also had the breech latch handle rotate out of position recently on my H&R officer model. The cam handle rotating on the cam latching shaft is a separate issue totally unrelated to the cam being loose on the shaft. The post above regarding the latch handle rotating relative to the shaft holding the cam is a new issue to me until I recently experienced it and has not been widely discussed from what I have read.

About 3 months ago at the range I had the breech block partially open. Luckily it was held in that position by the latch handle being hooked under the hammer and the cartridge did not eject. When I got home, I inspected the gun and noticed the latch handle was rotated about 20 degrees from its design position. I could rotate the handle with some resistance, but not easily. I could not determine how the handle was fixed to the shaft, nor could I remove it without damaging something. So, with the shaft and handle still in the breech block, I fixtured the block and barrel assembly in a drill press and with everything aligned in the proper position, I drilled a cross-hole through the latch handle and shaft. I then installed a slip fit pin with adhesive through the latch handle to positively fix it to the shaft. I have shot about 150 rounds after pinning the latch handle without incident.

My "theory" is the latch handle rotated on the shaft only a few degrees in the downward direction that prevented the cam from completely latching. It doesn't have to rotate much and the breech block can still appear closed, at least on my rifle.

[Toymaker]

Ikmcd1 - Issue #2 is the one I've got and your solution is likely the way I'll go. Question - did you drill through 1) both sides of the lever/handle and the shaft or 2) just through one side and into the shaft? With Murphy's Law in mind I'm thinking of doing #1 so if the pin does shear in the future I'll be able to remove all the pieces.
Regarding Issue #1, that hasn't happened yet but, again, I can see Murphy lurking around the corner. If the set screw shears you have the problem of teasing the piece out of the shaft. I'm thinking of just dimpling the shaft so the set screw has a restricted yet firm place to secure the cam to the shaft. I read a thread on another site where the person drilled through the shaft. That created a weak spot and eventually the shaft twisted from the torque and broke. Admittedly it sounds unlikely, but it made me think.

Appreciate your input. Thank you.

[john.k]

How does a high strength Loctite work in this application?....worth a try ,if you have the Loctite,cost is low.If a hole is drilled ,any pin would need to be properly proportioned for various factors.And the assy made a very tight fit,or it would be a way of ruining several parts in one go.

[country gent]

Once in location a small set screw on the shaft lever holes seam would act as a key positively stopping rotation and when bottomed out would be secure also.
Red locktite might work in conjunction with a light peening of the shaft. This could be done and never show.
With the above to suggestions also.

[lkmcd1]

I drilled from the bottom of the lever hub, through the shaft then into the top of the hub but not all the way through. I used a straight flute drill bit 3/32". Getting everything set up prior to drilling took me a long time. The steel hub/shaft was relatively soft steel, easy to drill.
253761

[Toymaker]

Thank you everybody for your input. I appreciate your help. This forum is a fantastic resource.

The cam has a pointed 4-40 set screw in it AND is tight on the shaft. We didn't try real hard, but couldn't move it a bit. We'll keep an eye on it and make sure the set screw stays tight.

We used a milling machine as a drill press to drill a #42 hole into the shaft hole of the thumb lever. Then, mounting a tap in the milling machine, started (by hand) the threads for a 4-40 set screw. Then we mounted the thumb lever on the shaft, set the position and marked the point on the shaft where a pointed set screw would sit. Then we dimpled the shaft at the proper point. We checked the alignment of everything and then blue Lock Tite on the 4-40 pointed set screw and we were done.

Admittedly it took a couple of hours but we were talking through each step, double checking measurements, diameter of the shaft, length of the turned down portion of the shaft, depth of the hole in the thumb lever, diameter of the bit, etc., etc., etc. You name it, we talked about it. The only thing we talked about but forgot to do was to put a little red Lock Tite on the shaft before friction fitting the thumb lever back on and installing the set screw. Don't think that will make much difference and it would have made it more difficult to remove the thumb lever if necessary in the future.

Again, thank you everyone for your input. Much Appreciated. Best Wishes for a Happy and Prosperous New Year!!

[MRGoodwin]

I have the H & R 1873 Little Big Horn Carbine and recently replaced the crappy rear sight with a Pedersoli Creedmore sight. Inletting was required but a MUCH better setup than the factory sight.