7-30 Waters or 30-30 ?

[beng]

I have a few TC now (14" barrel) and would like to get the 7-30 Waters or 30-30. From experience, what is better for small game? Thanks

[deerstalkerks]

Both are great calibers, I have both. 7-30 if you reload. I wouldn't think of it as a small game caliber, like in .22 rimfire. They are both good deer rounds, or metal silhouettes.

[Kraschenbirn]

For a 'small game shooter', I personally would go with the .30-30...easy to cast/load, wide assortment of suitable molds, inexpensive and readily available brass, etc. On the other hand, I shot the 7-30 Waters for a couple years on IHMSA silhouettes and know, with proper load development, it can be a real tack-driver but also know it can take some work to get there. Only visible problem is there's no factory brass available but it's not difficult to form from .30-30, either. Either way, it'd be hard to go wrong.

Bill

[garandsrus]

I really like the 7-30 Waters. My 14” barrel is the most accurate Contender barrel I have. 1/2” to 1” 10 shot groups at 50 yds are common. I am using a scope and rest.

[NSB]

Both are great calibers, I have both. 7-30 if you reload. I wouldn't think of it as a small game caliber, like in .22 rimfire. They are both good deer rounds, or metal silhouettes.

Agree totally with this comment.

[M-Tecs]

I have both and I prefer the 7-30 Waters. I reload for over 50 calibers and I greatly dislike brass that is not properly head stamped. For brass I use Federal since that is the only one that is marked 7-30 Waters. Factory loaded is still reasonable priced.

https://ammoseek.com/ammo/7-30-waters

[uscra112]

I'd go .30-30. The 7-30 Waters is a great cartridge, but there's not much in the way of light 7mm bullets that could be loaded for small game.

[charlie b]

Are you going to cast for it? If so then 30-30. If using jacketed then 7-30. I think any in the short barrel need to be hand loaded.

I had a .30 Herrett with a 14" barrel a long time ago and it was a great cartridge, but, it took a LOT of care and feeding of brass. I shot a lot of cast in it and would easily get 1.5MOA at 100yd if I did my part. If I were to do it over I would go with one of the two you are looking at.

[M-Tecs]

For varmints in my 7-30 Waters I have good results with the Sierra 100 Grain Hollow Point Varminter and the Speer 110 Grain Hollow Point TNT.

[dverna]

The .30/30 is never a bad choice.

[Shawlerbrook]

I love the 7x30 but it is hard to beat the bullets and ammo prices available for the 30 30.

[Geezer in NH]

Sorry small game 22LR

[P Flados]

I have been a contender guy since the 80s.

The 7-30 in 14" is hard to beat if you want max performance with jacketed reloads. My only 7 is a TCU that is a "back shelf" project as it did terrible with my first attempt. Note that I shoot cast only and have only tried one boolit.

The 30-30 in 14" is really only slightly less of a performer and is just so much easier to play with (boolits, retail bullets, load data, etc.). The 30-30 also has a huge advantage if there is ever a chance that you need to fall back on readily available retail ammo. My 14" 30-30 did pretty good with HF red PC coated Lee 170s.

Both are a bit much for what most would call "small game".

If I lost all my barrels and were shopping for general purpose "small game" contender barrel, I would probably be looking more for something like a 10" barrel that could use 30 cal boolits in a much smaller case, say 32-20, 32 H&R or 327 Fed.

There are some 30s that are bigger than the above, but less than what you mentioned. This includes the 30 Herrett and 300 BO. The 300 BO is a great sized case, but it is rimless and the standard BO twist and chamber suffer given the desire by some to function with sub loads. I actually like something of an odd choice that I see as better for the contender. The 30 Reece is a 357 case necked down to 30 cal and is available from MGM. This group still works well in a 10". The group can do deer at full power, but are not a bad choice if you are considering reduced loads for "small game".

All of the above reflects my preferences based on my experience. I could provide more reasons and recommendations, but would really need to know more about the planned use for the gun.

[MT Gianni]

I went for the 7-30 in a 23" bbl and have no regrets. You can shoot the Lee 7mm soup can accuratly or other cast. I have not gone heavier than the NOE 150 hunter but they are fun.

[barrabruce]

Well I would go 30-30 as I’m geared up with 30 cal moulds.

I think there are more 30 cal designs to play with.

For what it’s worth I know nothing about contender pistols but I have heard that the 32-20 barrel by (insert brand name) is 0.308"
And 1:10 and could be quite useful for all manner of things.

But then the 30-357 mag case variants fit better if you want to hot rod the smaller cases.

I do know thou a 30 cal bullet over a pinch of bullseye has more whomp than a 22lr if you are having marginal results.

Hell a fmj pointy thing loaded right up you could get them pesky wabbits even if they are on the other side of the 8 inch sapling..
Ha

[dale2242]

I have never owned a 7-30 Waters.
I bought a 14" 30-30 Contender barrel just for cast.
I topped it with a Leupold 4X LER scope.
10 gr Unique and a 311291 cast from 50/50 WW/ Lino shots very well.
I also have the same boolit loaded with a pretty heavy load of H335 but it is not nearly as fun to shoot as the Unique load.

[sparky45]

30-30 The most obvious reasons have been discussed above.

[P Flados]

Previously I had mentioned the 30 Reece due to availability from MGM. Going back through the 30 badger / 30 Reece thread (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?256118-30-Badger-30-Reece) post 85 says that MGM has a 30 badger reamer. If you are willing to pay the price, a 30 badger from MGM sounds like a super choice for a "just less than 30-30" hunting round. It uses 38 special cases, uses easy to find dies (30 mauser) and is super easy to make. Actually in a 10" barrel, I would not be surprised if the badger comes real close to the 30-30.

Even with all of my existing barrels, I am getting tempted to try out a 10" badger.

I really like the rounds that use a close to 0.375" diameter case (38 special, 357 & 223). This is the biggest diameter case where you can load to maximum normal rifle pressures in a Contender.

With 30-30 and larger sized cases people have damaged their Contenders (stretched the frame) with loads that did not look "too hot". Although I shoot my 30 Herrett a lot, I push it a lot less than I did before I learned about the above.

For cartridges that are 0.375" or less in diameter, you can just look at fired brass and primers to tell if your loads are safe in a Contender. As such, you can experiment around all you want provided you are careful, work up in small increments and pay attention to what you are doing. Note that the higher allowed pressure of this case size allows for some decent performance even with smaller capacities. This is why the 300 BO comes real close to 30-30 performance with a much smaller capacity.

[M-Tecs]

With 30-30 and larger sized cases people have damaged their Contenders (stretched the frame) with loads that did not look "too hot". Although I shoot my 30 Herrett a lot, I push it a lot less than I did before I learned about the above.

For cartridges that are 0.375" or less in diameter, you can just look at fired brass and primers to tell if your loads are safe in a Contender. As such, you can experiment around all you want provided you are careful, work up in small increments and pay attention to what you are doing. Note that the higher allowed pressure of this case size allows for some decent performance even with smaller capacities. This is why the 300 BO comes real close to 30-30 performance with a much smaller capacity.

Do you have any first hand knowledge of a 30/30 stretching a Contender frame? I have personally seen stretched frames from the 375 Win and the 45/70 but never in 30/30 or 7-30 Waters. The 375 Win is the only one that I am aware of that could stretch the frame with factory ammo.

[P Flados]

Not personally.

When I first heard about it, I poked around a bunch and remember finding post somewhere from a guy that had worked at TC talking about wildcats and stretched frames. He made a strong statement to the effect that it went hand in hand with larger case diameters. Pretty much area (Pi*D^2/4) times the pressure is a good way to estimate breech thrust. I do not remember all of the details but I am pretty sure he indicated that 30-30 case based rounds were in the problem category. That was when I decided to back off on my 30 Herrett loading practices.

To be honest, I think that breech thrust is not the only consideration for frame loading. The heavier the barrel + scope combinations on break open pistols, the more that recoil translates in to stress on the frame as the frame is pulling the barrel reward. I am not sure how big these stresses are when compared to breech thrust stresses.

Wiki says the base of a 375 is 0.420" and the 30-30 base is 0.422". So I would expect about the same pressure to give the same breech thrust. At the 30-30 SAAMI limit of 42,000 psi (wiki value), the simplified breech thrust estimate is 5874 lbs. Wiki gives the 375 a limit of 50,000 cup. Given that I was talking reloads, can you reliably see the difference based on visual inspection of cases and primers.

For recoil stresses, I do not think there would be that much difference. Although the 375 should have more recoil, the 30-30 will have a heavier barrel for the same profile and length.

On the other hand, I have never heard of any concerns with using 5.56 ammo in a Contender. With the 0.375" diameter base, I estimated it takes a 53,000 psi load to get the same breech thrust as a 30-30 at the limit. Given that the Contender seems to handle hot 5.56 ammo fine, there is probably still some margin at this thrust.

At 60,000 psi, 5.56 thrust would be 5527 lbs. For a 30-30, this thrust requires 47,500 psi. I feel I can spot a 60,000 psi load looking at primers a heck of a lot better than I can spot a 47,500 psi load. The 375 estimated thrust at 50,000 cup would come out a little more than the 60,000 psi thrust in a 5.56. This matches up pretty good with your statement of stretched frames with factory 375 ammo.

Now I may be off some with my number crunching, but I really do feel much safer for avoiding gun damage with reloading 0.375" cases as compared to 0.422" cases.

[M-Tecs]

A wildcat based on a 30/30 operating at higher pressures could be a problem. SAAMI 30/30 or under loads not so much.

Also for calculating breech thrust it's the internal area of the case not the rim diameter that matters.

The SAAMI spec for the 375 Win is 52,000 CUP. Rumor had it that the early factory loads were on the hot side. Never owned a 375 Win in a Contender. I do have both pistol and carbine barrels for the 45/70 in a Contender. I have zero interest in above SAAMI pressure loads in either. They just kick to much.

[Todd N.]

I personally don't think the 7-30 or .30-30 are optimal small game cartridges . There are much better ones available for that role. Sure, if one of these is what you have, run what you brung!

As to the .30-30 frame stretching... WHAT???
I have been shooting the .30-30 in my Contender since about 1978 or '79. Back then, I ran my .30-30 loads as hot as I could trying to get .308 Winchester performance out of the little single shot. Never did stretch the frame. In 1991 I reamed my barrel to the .30-30 Ackley Improved chamber. WOW! I could push those .30 caliber bullets even faster! I can only imagine what kind of pressure I was forcing the poor "weak" .30-30 case to withstand. Never did stretch the frame with THAT cartridge either.

Somewhere around 1997 I picked up a Super 14 .44 magnum barrel. Less than a week later it had been reamed to .444 Marlin and a muzzle brake was added. Best load I found for that cartridge used the Hornady 300 grain XTP- the one with the dual cannelure grooves. That one accounted for several California muleys while I was stuck there for college. THAT cartridge never stretched the frame either, and I KNOW my 300 grain XTP load was at the SAAMI 44,000 CUP limit.
I still shoot that barrel on occasion. It was used on a cow elk hunt about 6 years ago- sort of a blast from the past. I still use that receiver to this day with multiple barrels. It shows no measurable stretching at all.

In my opinion,

if you start with a good frame that has no distortion issues and have EVERY one of your barrels fitted by a Contender specialist, and pay attention to how you size your brass, you will not stretch your frame.

[MT Gianni]

Previously I had mentioned the 30 Reece due to availability from MGM. Going back through the 30 badger / 30 Reece thread (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?256118-30-Badger-30-Reece) post 85 says that MGM has a 30 badger reamer. If you are willing to pay the price, a 30 badger from MGM sounds like a super choice for a "just less than 30-30" hunting round. It uses 38 special cases, uses easy to find dies (30 mauser) and is super easy to make. Actually in a 10" barrel, I would not be surprised if the badger comes real close to the 30-30.

Even with all of my existing barrels, I am getting tempted to try out a 10" badger.

I really like the rounds that use a close to 0.375" diameter case (38 special, 357 & 223). This is the biggest diameter case where you can load to maximum normal rifle pressures in a Contender.

With 30-30 and larger sized cases people have damaged their Contenders (stretched the frame) with loads that did not look "too hot". Although I shoot my 30 Herrett a lot, I push it a lot less than I did before I learned about the above.

For cartridges that are 0.375" or less in diameter, you can just look at fired brass and primers to tell if your loads are safe in a Contender. As such, you can experiment around all you want provided you are careful, work up in small increments and pay attention to what you are doing. Note that the higher allowed pressure of this case size allows for some decent performance even with smaller capacities. This is why the 300 BO comes real close to 30-30 performance with a much smaller capacity.

The badger designer determined the maximum efficiency was achieved in a 21 3/4" bbl.

[ShooterAZ]

I have both, but use the 7x30 barrel much more often. I use it in Silhouette and it is a tack driver. The 30-30 is easier to cast and load for though IMHO. My 30-30 barrel has a compensated barrel and is crazy loud at the range, that's probably the main reason I use the 7x30 more. Both are excellent barrels though, very accurate.

[marshall623]

7-30 Waters , 150 gr. NOE Hunter very accurate with 3031 and RL7 . The 4895’s are good powders for the Waters as well

[TCLouis]

What USCRA112 said seems to be good logic.
Coated bullets for other purposes I think I would lean toward 7X30 though I have never had one!

[ubetcha]

What would be the symptoms of a stretched frame. I have shot a 14" 30-30 with cast bullet for silhouettes since 1984. I started getting a hard opening situation last year. Decided to take it apart this week and polish all components that showed contact with another part. All seems good until I put the bbl on. I have even tried different locking lugs to not avail. Installing the newer style lugs without the floating pin makes it worse to the point that it won't unlock. I also have different bbls, but at this time, I have not tried them to see if the hard opening occurs with them

[M-Tecs]

What would be the symptoms of a stretched frame.

https://www.go2gbo.com/forums/36-thompson-center-handguns-sponsored-ed-s-tcs/397344-g1-frame-stretch-symptoms.html

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?148245-Is-my-Contender-frame-stretched

https://specialtypistols.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4766056864/m/1850052556?f=4766056864&s=9066056864&r=6920072556&a=tpc&csra=Y&m=1850052556

http://www.reedercustomguns.net/forum/index.php?mode=thread&id=33673

http://www.lasc.us/bellmHeadspace.htm

[nagantguy]

Love them both- but the 7-30 super 14 barrel I got two years ago is one of if not the most accurate gun I own with jwords or cast- it’s not common to have both, and it doesn't seem to matter the flavor or powder across the spectrum of loads it shoots amazingly well and I fancy my self a verybfine pistol shot especially heavy- short rifle type pistols and I’ve stopped shooting the waters before cause at 75 yards I was one hole- making brass is a snap but some times I do worry about keeping 30-30 and waters brass separated but not to long ago injad few hundred pieces of brass properly head stamped as a gift for my son being born from a fantastic member of our own CastBoolits!!!!!!!

[Alferd Packer]

Geared to cast 30 and 32 cal pistol bullets so the 30/30 for me.