Relationship among meplat, velocity, & bullet weight?

[Naphtali]

As I understand things when using bullets of the same diameter, wound channel and its diameter are controlled by: meplat diameter; bullet weight; and velocity.

Let us assume for three different 475 Linebaugh cartridges:
1. [using] LBT cast bullets having identical nose shapes and basic body configurations, meplats being .390 inch. One cartridge is loaded with 340-grain bullet. One is loaded with 400-grain bullet. And one is loaded with 430-grain bullet.

2. Identical muzzle energy -- 888.4 ft/lbs -- is achieved from the three cartridges -- 340-grain bullet @ 1085 fps; 400-grain bullet @ 1000 fps; 430-grain bullet @ 964 fps.

Clearly, all bullets are good ones, so there will be no poor choices. Will these bullets achieve identical, or nearly identical, wound channel diameters for a scapula-lung side shot on elk under 60 yards? If they will not, please put the bullets in descending order for wound channel diameter. What are the differences among the wound channel diameters?

[Doc Highwall]

You also have to take into consideration momentum. [Boolit weight in grains divided by 7000 times velocity] The sectional density along with the momentum will allow the boolit with the large meplat to do more damage. Heavier boolits mean more sectional density.

[DanWalker]

My suspicion is that wound channels will be so similar as to be indistinguishable.
At those velocities I'd cast them dead soft for some riveting effect(expansion).
I admit to having limited experience(less than 30 animals)hunting with cast boolits, but what I have seen is that the current trend of mega bore handguns heaving 1/2oz. slugs doesn't seem much more effective than the "old fashioned" 44magnums and 45colts that have been used on game for years now.
Not bashing the bigger bores at all. I just think 99 percent of the guys hunting with handguns are way overgunned.
I suspect that this trend was started by people who didn't understand boolit fitment and so switched to harder alloys in an attempt to stop leading. These hard boolits behaved like a field tipped arrow, and lacked incapacitative power. That is to say, long chases of wounded game were often the result when broadside lung shots were taken without any major bones being struck.
Since the majority of people I talk to as well as most of the gunrag guru's seem to agree that handguns can't generate the same hydrostatic shock that rifles do, they all agree that increasing the surface area of the wound channel will bring animals down quicker.
In a nut shell, the bigger the hole you put in the critter,(provided it's in a vital spot) the quicker it's gonna die.
The hard boolit devotees switched to bigger and bigger bores as well as wider and wider meplats, in order to make bigger holes. If you read a lot of what MANY of these guys write about actual performance, you'll hear them talking about hard quartering shots, raking from hip to opposite shoulder. These shots do kill quicker than broadside hits because so much more tissue is damaged. Think about it. The surface area of a .500" hole that's 30" long is quite a bit larger than the same .500" hole that only passes through 14" of chest cavity(that's mostly void space), on a broadside shot. They also tend to take out the offside shoulder upon exiting. This combination is actually VERY EFFECTIVE, as my own experiences have proven to me.
The problem, for me, is that it comes at a cost. The cost is flinch inducing recoil from these cannons and hot loads.
I struggled for a number of years just trying to handle top end loads in the "puny"45LC. All I got for my trouble was a nasty flinch that reduced my effective range to about 25 yards.
Then, against the preaching and advice of many,"experts", I tried something. I loaded a pure lead boolit over a moderate powder charge. My results? SUPERIOR wound channels when compared to the ultra hard wfn designs.
I've since verified these results in both test media and live game.
Get the boolit moving around 1000fps, and put it through the lungs and whatever you shoot is gonna be dead pretty quickly. Aiming so that your shot takes out the offside shoulder upon exiting will help speed the process even further.
Sorry if I hijacked your thread. I've just been thinking about this subject for a number of years now,and finally my thoughts came together tonight in this post.
I'm really not trying to bash the big guns. I'd love a .475, but I'd just wind up loading it to the same power level as my 45LC.

[Lloyd Smale]

first a 340 grain .475 bullet has a poor sectional density and is probably not going to be the best pentrating bullet. It will probably slow quickly apon hitting any animal and that may cause a smaller wound channel. You noticed how i said MIGHT. A shot one an elk sized animal that doesnt hit anything bigger then a rib bone isnt much of a test of the ability of a bullet to penetrate. Now if you were shooting through the sholder or were taking a shot at a going away wounded animal id want to have my 475 loaded with at least 400 grain bullets and would gladly give up a 100 or even 200 feet per second in velocity. Personaly i wouldnt load a bullet lighter then 350 grain in a 475 or even a 480 and really would rather have at least 375 Grain.

[44man]

Some good answers here! :-D A soft slow boolit works fine but as you speed it up, expansion will slow penetration and reduce the length of the primary wound channel.
When shooting the velocities I do, 1330 to 1360 fps with 400 to 430 gr boolits, hard is better and the wound channel will be a lot longer. Nothing to worry about either way with broadside chest shots.
In my opinion the best weights for the .475 are from 400 to 430 gr's.
For velocity, I stand behind accuracy no matter how fast it turns out to be. Shooting the big boolits slow will cost you in the ability to hit at anything but closer ranges.
We just completed a penetration test and the 420 gr WFN went 40" in soaked phone books and newspaper. Jacketed bullets would make around 12" to 14". The entry holes from hard cast looked like volcano holes, the jacketed just had a hole. Wound channels from the WFN were actually larger and larger much longer then the fast expanding bullet. You DO NOT NEED EXPANSION with a large meplat. They even work fine when shot slower, just not as accurate.
The big problem with the .475 is when you buy a light Freedom or converted SBH. The gun is too light to control and those of you that are sensitive to recoil will regret it. How many of you would buy a 6# .460??? :mrgreen: How about a 5# 12 gauge for trap shooting? Too many worry about gun weight for carry and buy stinking little things with super short barrels in huge calibers. Then the very first question on all of the sites is "what is a good light load for my gun?"
Why in the world did you buy the thing? Stay with a .44! [smilie=1:
I am almost 72 and when I shoot the big guns, I want the power it was designed for. But first of all I want the accuracy a proper load gives with whatever boolit I have.
Don't take it personal, but some can't handle the big ones and I understand. I have friends that outright refuse to shoot my guns and some who did and told me they don't like my guns. :mrgreen:

[Doc Highwall]

It looks like we all agree that a boolit that is heavy for the caliber aka more sectional density with a wide meplat at a velocity we can handle and put where we are aiming will do the job. Just a matter of hard vs soft alloy and what one might call hard another might call soft. What BHN numbers are we talking about seems to be the next discussion.

[missionary5155]

Well having read all this my 38-55 at 1250 fps probably will not kill a flee anymore Or a 32-40 had best be left home. It seems a real miracle a 350 grain out of my 1876 45-60 would be applied to anything bigger than a dog ????
I am amazed constantly how much tougher beasties are nowadays. Somewhere back in the days when I was pre-Picklesuit an old hunter simple said " When in dought get closer"...
I completely understand the quest for POWER... Why I am launching Round Ball out of 12 gauge at near 1550 FPS (somedays) and have clicked 41 mag 250 Boolits at near the same FPS... (yea I know BIG DEAL ) But you stick correctly any 40 some magnum + boolit into a soft skin critter and that critter is done for... PERIOD.
The only hand held GAREENTEED one shot FOR SURE this is gonna drop that critter in his tracks is a 40mm grenade launcher with an HE projectile fired one handed... least that I have seen used. THAT is one SMASHER !!!

[44man]

Hard but ductile, about 20 to 22 BHN. Water dropped WW's.

[Doc Highwall]

missionary5155, I have not talked with you before but reading some of your posts I can tell that you are pretty knowledgeable. I do not know if you understand sectional density and what it means to ballistics and that it is the only way to compare one caliber to another as far as bullet weight. The formula for sectional density is bullet weight in lbs divided by the diameter squared. Example take a 30 caliber 180 grain bullet. 180/7000/(.308 x .308) = .271 lbs per square inch, now take a 45 caliber 405 grain bullet. 405/7000/(.458 x .458) = .275 lbs per square inch. As you can see the sectional densities are about even, the difference is the momentum and energy they will impart both on your shoulder and the game that you shoot. It is not always about foot pounds of energy but shot placement with a bullet of the right construction which includes sectional density are far more important. Just the same as it is to get a heavy for caliber bullet going a particular velocity in a gun it also work the same to slow it down in air or tissue. Me I like to have two holes in something I shoot, a innie and a outie. I hope this helps you understand sectional density if you did not under stand it and if you do please accept my apologies. One thing I am sure of is some new shooters will now know what sectional density means, pounds per square inch.

[Lloyd Smale]

i favor bullets on the hard side myself. For hunting i like a bullet from #2 to 5050 ww/lyno. Somewhere in the 14-18 range. Like 44man i look for which of the two alloys shoots the best at the velocity i want in the gun im using. Dont be fooled into using soft alloyed bullets for any larger then a small deer. We played with soft points and hps and the bigger the caliber the worse they work. You get to much frontal area and at handgun velocity you wont get good enough penetration if you hit bone. Ive see 450 grain lfn with a #2 body and a pure nose go 8 inches on a buffalo. and the same with a hp nose not go that far on a 300 lb sheep. Ive actally had better luck with soft nosed and hp bullets in the 44 then the big guns but it still isnt giving you an advantage over a convetional hard cast bullet with a decent meplat.
The only dissagreement i have with 44 man is with water dropping. Ive seen water dropped bullets that lost there noses in penetration test . this is especially prevelent in swc. The will break right in front of the driving band. Ive seen it enough to have to say in my experience water dropped bullets are not ductile but just the oposite there brittle. Ive never seen a lynotype bullet that fractured in penetration testing at handgun velocitys. My thoughts using a 5050 ww/lyno mix is that you get a tad more weight then a straight lyno bullet and they may be more ductalbe (although like i said lyno wont break either) That little bit of weight is probably why they have proven to do the best of any alloy in penetration testing that weve done. Even though i dont care for water dropped bullets, id rather use them then use a alloy softer then straight ww.

[Doc Highwall]

That is why I favor a good sectional density, if the bullet expands too much and breaks off there is still enough mass to continue to deepen the wound channel.

[missionary5155]

Greetings Doc Highwall.... Yes I do understand and do appreciate all that is written in all the posts.. It just seems amazing how much MORE power is needed to take game today. I actually do most my hunting when in Illinois with a bow anymore. I guess as the years went by I became more interested in getting closer than needing more power. Last time up I launced a 5 foot "arrow" by hand at an unsuspecting doe. The development of real Hand Cannons will probably never end. And I am glad to see them.. keeps good people at work and others learning through develpment.

[Doc Highwall]

I am not looking for power as you said a arrow has nowhere the power of a bullet yet they will out penetrate a bullet. What I want is complete penetration at the distance I shoot, or prepare for the worst and hope for the best. With my one eye I have to move my head twice as much as people with two eyes and I have had more then one occasion that I see the south end of a north bound deer and to reach the vitals you need penetration. A large caliber gun like a 45-70 with a 405 grain bullet at 1800fps can penetrate deep without making hambuger on the hoof like a 300win mag. Elmer Keith said you could eat all the way up to the bullet hole. My next boolit for my 1895 Marlin is this RCBS 530 grain flatnose at 1300+ fps.

[missionary5155]

Helo Doc.. That is one fine looking boolit... that will be churning along like a 45-120 .. Should be able to topple any 4 footed critter this side of our world... probably to include the 2-3 tonners on the other side of the larger pond to the east.

[44man]

I have never had a cast boolit break after water dropping. My favorite alloy is 20# of WW, 6.4 oz of tin and 9.6 oz of antimony, water dropped.
Water dropped WW metal is good but not quite as accurate.
Here are four boolits. The left is from my 45-70 BFR at near 1700 fps, shot into wet paper. Some nose damage. Next is a boolit that penetrated 16" of seasoned white oak.
Next is my 420 gr .475 WFN that went 40" and finally my 330 .44 that went over 36", wet phone books and paper.
Notice the noses on some are pristine.
These boolits will NOT break no matter what you hit in any animal. If a boolit breaks, the alloy is too hard or the design is poor.

[Lloyd Smale]

you would have been suprised at the last linebaugh semiar i attended as we had 3 water droppped ww bullet lose there nose in penetration testing. No other bullit we tested fractured. Maybe the test was more severe then most but its a pretty good test of what a bullet will do on live large animals. We shoot into a knuckle bone off a cow and then into wet print. That semiar was about 4 years ago an since then ive seen it a number of times in my own testing and quit using them because of it. Believe me i would say it if it wasnt so as it would be alot cheaper way to shoot then dealing with buying lineotype!! Personaly what i think happens is when water dropping its tough to have any kind of consistancy in temp of the bullet being dropped. You try to get in a rhytmm but its tough and my guess has allways been they were a bullet that was a tad hotter when dropped. Bottom like is heat water quench any kind of metal and it becomes more brittle then what it was.

[Naphtali]

Participation on this thread is one of the things I appreciate from Castboolit members. I ask what time it is, and I obtain detailed analyses of how the watch works.

One point I must make about bullet weights. 340 grains in a 475 Linebaugh is not really poor sectional density. Its approximate sectional density of .2155 is equivalent to a 310-grain 454 Casull bullet. Few would refer to the Casull bullet as having poor sectional density.

[Whitworth]

Compared to rifle bullets, even heavy for caliber handgun bullets have lousy sectional density. This doesn't mean that they won't do what they are supposed to, but a 340 grain .475 bullet is pretty light for caliber and less than optimal for good penetration. I don't consider a 310 grain .45 bullet very heavy for caliber either, but that's just me! In my experience, the Casull works really well when you get in the 350 grain range!

[dubber123]

My brother an I went on a hog hunt a few years back, and shot identical sized hogs, (275#). We both used .50 cal handguns with nearly identical Meplats. My load was 900 fps, my brothers 1,250 fps. Although both achieved full penetration, the wound channel on his hog was nearly double in size. (his went down alot quicker too).

A few years before I had shot another hog, with a 1,350 fps. load, and the wound channel on that one was even larger yet. I am convinced velocity really does matter, it shoves more material to the side.

I would suggest shooting your heaviest boolit as fast as you can do so accurately. You will know your limits, and trying to go past them never works. My load for my .475 F/A w/ 4-3/4" bbl is a 440 gr WFN at 1,325 fps. It IS unpleasant, but I manage it, and know it works.

[44man]

Dubber is correct, the faster a GOOD boolit goes, the more damage there is. This must be adjusted for the game shot. Deer don't take much to kill.
Penetration MIGHT be more with more velocity but that is something I don't know, thinking the boolit will shed velocity faster when it is faster but the end result should equal the penetration of a slower boolit but with a larger wound channel.
This would be an interesting test. Shoot a good boolit at all velocities to actually see what happens. Start at 800 fps and work to 1350 or so.
I, myself, don't believe penetration will be much different. Just maybe the faster ones will have a little less.

[dubber123]

I read a Linebaugh test, and it clearly showed boolit weight makes a MUCH bigger difference in penetration. Using the same Meplat boolits, he increased velocity by 10 or 15%, (can't remember), and got an inch or two more penetration.

He then increased boolit weight by the same percentage, and got something like 10" more penetration.

[Doc Highwall]

dubber123, that is what I am trying to do make the bullet penetrate like a arrow. Here is a condom bullet 140 grain for my 260 Remington that I have in a Browning 1885 Lowwall.

[44man]

LLoyd, that might be the key. Water dropping when the lead is still close to molten will make them brittle. In fact they might start to crack when they hit the water.
I cast slower and wait until the sprue is hard before cutting and dumping. I try to maintain and even pace. I do not get a sizzle when the boolit hits the water. We shoot through a pile of steel belted tires backed by a steel plate. Any that do not hit the backplate are in good shape.

[Tom Myers]

As I understand things when using bullets of the same diameter, wound channel and its diameter are controlled by: meplat diameter; bullet weight; and velocity.

Let us assume for three different 475 Linebaugh cartridges:
1. [using] LBT cast bullets having identical nose shapes and basic body configurations, meplats being .390 inch. One cartridge is loaded with 340-grain bullet. One is loaded with 400-grain bullet. And one is loaded with 430-grain bullet.

2. Identical muzzle energy -- 888.4 ft/lbs -- is achieved from the three cartridges -- 340-grain bullet @ 1085 fps; 400-grain bullet @ 1000 fps; 430-grain bullet @ 964 fps.

Clearly, all bullets are good ones, so there will be no poor choices. Will these bullets achieve identical, or nearly identical, wound channel diameters for a scapula-lung side shot on elk under 60 yards? If they will not, please put the bullets in descending order for wound channel diameter. What are the differences among the wound channel diameters?

If one were to assume that wound channel diameter to be a result of bullet meplate diameter and velocity then perhaps one could assume that wound channel length could be a result of bullet weight (or sectional density) and bullet velocity.

Then you could make the assumption that with identical nose profiles, the ballistic coefficient would vary in direct proportion to the weight of each bullet.

So, just assuming that the 340 grain bullet has a ballistic coefficient of 0.20, then it follows that the 400 grainer has a BC of 0.235 and the BC of the 400 grain bullet would be 0.253.

Running the respective bullet velocities and their attendant BCs through the Precision Ballistics software returns these values at 60 yards;

Remaining values at 60 yards:
Weight_Velocity_Energy__Momentum;
340 gr 1010 fps 771 ft lb 49.1 lbs/ft/sec
400 gr _953 fps 806 ft lb 54.5 lbs/ft/sec
430 gr _925 fps 817 ft lb 56.8 lbs/ft/sec

It would appear from several assumptions and the math that a heavier bullet would be more likely to achieve a larger diameter and longer would channel.

Respectfully,
Tom Myers
Precision Ballistics and Records (http://www.tmtpages.com/)

[Lloyd Smale]

Theres no doubt velocity makes a differnce in wound channel. Its a two sidded problem. Velocity means wound channel but given enough veloicity to overcome your alloy and even deform a bullet by a tiny bit and penetration suffers. Thats why you will many times see a slower bullet out penetrate a fast one. What will happen when a bullet deforms is it will tend to tip and when it does you about have a sideways bullet. Now i may be exadurating about sideways but enough that it will cause a bullet to dive. I allways preach that a wfn wont penetrate as well as a lfn and it wont but to be realistic it will usually penetrate enough. When does velocity hurt you ? In my opinion your pushing your luck with any alloy over 1400fps. MOst bullets in the 18-22 bhn range will hold well to that velocity when hitting bone. I prefer to back my loads off to 1200 just to be sure. 1200 fps with a heavy for caliber bullet cast out of something in that alloy range will do a hell of a lot of pentrating no matter if its a swc lfn or wfn. One may do a tad better then the other but they all work. Ive shot many deer with cast bullets. swcs lfns and wfns and its pretty tough to give a honest call and say which gives a bigger wound channel as every animal is hit at a differnt velocity and even the differnce in design between two differnt swcs can be drastic. Needless to say they all work and one may be a tad better in a certain circumstance then another. Shoot one animal with a lfn and you think you know how they perform but after 20 deer find you dont have a clue. Well enough of this pain killer induced wisdom for today ;)

[Bret4207]

i favor bullets on the hard side myself. For hunting i like a bullet from #2 to 5050 ww/lyno. Somewhere in the 14-18 range. Like 44man i look for which of the two alloys shoots the best at the velocity i want in the gun im using. Dont be fooled into using soft alloyed bullets for any larger then a small deer. We played with soft points and hps and the bigger the caliber the worse they work. You get to much frontal area and at handgun velocity you wont get good enough penetration if you hit bone. Ive see 450 grain lfn with a #2 body and a pure nose go 8 inches on a buffalo. and the same with a hp nose not go that far on a 300 lb sheep. Ive actally had better luck with soft nosed and hp bullets in the 44 then the big guns but it still isnt giving you an advantage over a convetional hard cast bullet with a decent meplat.
The only dissagreement i have with 44 man is with water dropping. Ive seen water dropped bullets that lost there noses in penetration test . this is especially prevelent in swc. The will break right in front of the driving band. Ive seen it enough to have to say in my experience water dropped bullets are not ductile but just the oposite there brittle. Ive never seen a lynotype bullet that fractured in penetration testing at handgun velocitys. My thoughts using a 5050 ww/lyno mix is that you get a tad more weight then a straight lyno bullet and they may be more ductalbe (although like i said lyno wont break either) That little bit of weight is probably why they have proven to do the best of any alloy in penetration testing that weve done. Even though i dont care for water dropped bullets, id rather use them then use a alloy softer then straight ww.

In both bold areas I have to point out, not agree or disagree, that alloy makes a big difference as does velocity, or more to the point the combination of the 2. A high velocity hit with a certain alloy will react differently than one of another alloy/speed. Using standard velocity 357/44/45 (1-1200K fps) on deer/cattle up to 1200 lbs I've had no lack of penetration using WW alloy boolits. Just my experience, but I think if you use the hyper powerful rounds like the 454, 460, 475 or even the 45 Colt loaded real hot, you're into a different area than us plain jane types with our 357's and 44's shooting 180/240's at 11-1200fps.

[Doc Highwall]

Brett4207, I agree with you and Tom Myers, the alloy in question has a very large influence on the out come as does the sectional density. The heaviest boolits for the caliber will lose the least velocity in say 100yds a practical limit for handgun hunting even though most people have shot much closer. I shot one once with a 357 mag with Lyman's 357429 with lino at about 45-50 yds and shot placement is still the most important. I just want a boolit that will go all the way through even after hitting bone and I am going to use the heaviest boolit I can shoot accurately. Now if I could find a place to be able to use a handgun around here my state does not allow handgun hunting for big game only small game.