What boolit for a 1 in 12 twist for my 35 Whelen?

[Tripplebeards]

I’ve been researching back-and-forth and reading old posts on and off here on twist rates the 35 Whelen VS cast. Well I have a special 2017/18’ run rifle and from what I see now Remington turned it into a normal offering now which is a 7600 carbine in 35 Whelen. From what I’ve researched it has a 1 in 12 twist. I see a lot of old posts preferring 14 and 16 inch twists specifying the slower twists can accurately run cast all the way up to max jacketed rifle velocities but the faster 1 in 12 won’t stabilize them? If so it’s just my luck as I the reason I purchased it was to run cast close to j word velocities if accuracy is acceptable. The only mold I have right now I bought as a group buy. It’s a 200 grain with hollow point pins. Am I able to load that bullet up to close to J Word velocities with good accuracy as long as I PC and GC them? Some of the post I read that 2200 to 2300 ft./s is about max for stabilization and then accuracy falls off? If so I’d be better off using my 35 Remington‘s because my Whelen would be running the same velocity and I’ll just stick to J words in my Whelen. I bought my Whelen to shoot at Whelen velocities and not a 35 Remington as I already have two 35 Remingtons. Anyone shoot cast in a 1 in 12 twist at higher velocity’s with decent accuracy in a Whelen? Should I be looking at a heavier bullet to run closer to max velocity is to keep it stabilizing at my faster twist? I slugged my barrel. It Measured .358 so I plan on running .360 sized bullets through it.

[M-Tecs]

The longer a bullet is the faster twist it needs to stabilize. If 14 and 16 twists are adequate to stabilize a bullet but it looses accuracy in a 12 twist the RPM limit is being exceeded. Harder alloy or different shape of bullet may help.

[Tripplebeards]

I’m guessing if I went to harder alloy and use the penta pin I still would have a good chance of the hollow point opening or at least shearing off for additional wound channels?

[M-Tecs]

2,200 FPS is about the top end that I have been able to archive 100% repeatable acceptable accuracy with cast. Others have done better but when the accuracy goes south I take the easy path and switch to jacketed.

I have a Marlin Guide Gun in 45/70 that if I used top end loads with 300 grain jacketed hollow points I lose the unsupported lead above the jacket. When that happens the groups open up to about 12".

[waksupi]

At 2200 fps you have a real killer, with a point blank range of 225 yards. More velocity is unneeded. Keep in mind, push them too fast and the effect is like a grenade going off, destroying a lot of meat. Hollow points are not necessary at all. I shot a deer this morning with a flat nosed bullet at just under 2200 fps from a .358 Win, and it was a bang-flop.

[Screwbolts]

What Waksupi said! /\ /\ /\

Ken

[Tripplebeards]

So I would assume a heavy for caliber boolit is what I would want? If I can’t push it fast I would at least have a sledgehammer with energy. The problem is I really don’t see anything other than 200 grain offerings and .358. And if not I’m wasting a lot of powder and might as well just shoot my 35 Remington‘s at the same velocity. I believe the above comments about most cast best accuracy at 2200 FPS. I realize I still have to go out and find out for myself but most of the spirit shooters were testing time and time again and that’s why I ask these questions. I tested my 450 bushmaster and my best accuracy came from an average velocity of 2075 ft./s with both air cooled and water dropped lee300 grainers PCd and GC. It was a load of 35.5 grains of H110 seated at 2.035”. The alloy BH was 15.6 and 14.2. I also tried one other gun so far which was my 7744. I had an alloy with a BH of 15.4 They shot the Tightest with a max load of 23.8 grains of H110 and then again with a lighter load (and even tighter and more consistent) with 21.2 grains of lil gun. So In the two rifled I have tried cast through so far at 100 range accuracy it’s even been under 2200 ft./s with best loads. So I would Assume with larger case capacities like the whelen i’m really not going to benefit with my rate a twist to be able to push these more than 35 Remington velocities unless I go for an extremely heavy for caliber bullet and then I run into the longer boolit twist rate issue.

[cwlongshot]

251016251015You cannot really go wrong with the RCBS 358-200. Or one of its many copies.

I like heavier personally. My whelen loves the Lyman 358009!! I have a NOE copy mold.

My new 270 should be a good one as should my 230g. But I have not tried either one. The 230 has wider meplat.

The pic of all three.

I may have sent ya some Already.

CW

[Tripplebeards]

Yep, the COOOL round ones I know for sure! The MP 200 grain group buy I own I believe comes with a plug besides pins to make solids if I remember. I think every manufacture ups up for spear is pretty proud of their J words when I was googling prices yesterday so I would really like to have the advantage of shooting some cast through it that isn’t going to cost me anything but the price of a three cent gas check. I just don’t want to have to sacrifice it down to 35 Remington levels to do it accurately. If I could at least jump up to a 250 grain or heavier bullet At 2200 ft./s IMO I’m at least not too far away from J word energies and velocities.

[Shuz]

I get excellent accuracy(2"@100 yds) with my 1:12 twist .35 Whelen with a Lyman 358009 @+-280g and AA 4064 powder. The boolits are sized to .358, and then heat treated. The velocity is chrono'd at 2150fps. Moose, elk and deer have all succumbed to this combination.

[cwlongshot]

PM if you would like some 270’s to try. I dont think I sent those.

I can send 358009’s and 230’s too if ya wanna try some.

CW

[Tripplebeards]

Thanks for the offer I might take you up on it.

I haven’t checked my load data books yet but I would assume that a 270 grain J word is probably only going 2200 ft./s at max velocity?

[cwlongshot]

Gift box all packed! She is FULL!!

Momma should be able to ship today to you!

Enjoy,

CW

[Harter66]

The 358 win I shoot is a 1-14 no help there . I do get a nickle group with the RCBS 35-250 at 2100 fps . I didn't go any further though I had plenty of room to do so , the book says that IS a jacketed speed load for a 358 Win with a 250 . At some point I pounced on a 300 gr RN Lyman I haven't cast yet for the 358 . Your 1-12 will most likely handle anything you feed it weight wise .

Yes "unfortunately (?)" you're going to have to go heavy to get the most out of it . The 35 cal really starts to come on in terms of BC above 250 gr and subtle nose shape changes make a big difference then . At the same time a 300 gr Keith shaped bullet will shoot right with a 200 gr Hot Cor . Yes I spend too much digging up apex weights and shapes , nope it's never hurt a thing .

[Tripplebeards]

Gift box all packed! She is FULL!!

Momma should be able to ship today to you!

Enjoy,

CW

Thanks again!!!...you spoiled me again!!!

[Tripplebeards]

Meanwhile I do have a couple boxes of Speer 180 grain hot Cores I use in the 35 Rems. I wonder how they would hold up pushing them as fast as the whelen hornady super performance ammo on deer?

I do wanna find a happy medium for cast in this gun because the price of J words are ridiculous and 35 Cal.

[Yodogsandman]

I have a 1-12 twist 35 Whelen. Best cast bullets are the NOE 360-230 and NOE 360-310, 35 Thumper. The NOE 360-310 can be run at 2270 FPS using IMR4350 and be super accurate if oven heat treated and quenched.

[Tripplebeards]

I did see in my Lyman 4th edition cast load book today a load with a 204 grain boolit listed from 2500 FPS starting load to a 2800 top load with a 24” 1 in 16 twist barrel using imr3031. Anyone try this load with a one in 12 twist with any luck with accuracy? I have a bunch of lee 200 grain PC,GC,and sized at .3595” I casted up a couple years ago and I figured I’d try it if I have this powder and see how it groups. Last question do I need to crimp these rounds since they’re going to be pump action? I do own a lee factory crimp Collett die if so. I would assume I have to flare these for cast bullets to seat and will have to knock down the flair somehow.

https://i.imgur.com/LHWua8L.jpg

[cwlongshot]

If a Rem pump it fires from a steel magazine not a tube. No you do not “NEED TO” crimp. In general I dont like to crimp any cast bullets in rifles.

Your results could very.

CW

[Tripplebeards]

If a Rem pump it fires from a steel magazine not a tube. No you do not “NEED TO” crimp. In general I dont like to crimp any cast bullets in rifles.

Your results could very.

CW


What do you do to push the neck flare back even with the bullet then? When I looked online last night I found a custom overrun in the lee factory crimp Collett die for the 35 Whelen. It was $27 bucks direct from Lee and they only had one left so I grabbed it to try. I’m not a big fan of crimping either using J words except if they’re getting loaded in the lever gun. I did have really excellent luck with the lee factory crimp Collett die for accuracy in my Ruger 77/44 so I figured I’d give it a try in the Whelen. I have two loads at 100 yards that shoots Sub MOA with my 44 magnum rifle which I would’ve never thought possible until I switch to that crimp style. Before with my roll crimps I was shooting larger than fist size groups at best. I would assume when shooting cast it’s going to help with pressure consistency by crimping whether it’s rifle or pistol?

[cwlongshot]

The FCD is a collet style crimp. Case length is no matter. I like them, but not for everything.

A Taper crimp works well for me if I feel the need but not many offered For rifle cases. Generally The M die, when properly adjusted, dosent Leave a large bell. You only wanna open the case enough for the heel Of the bullet to fit. Any more is over working your brass.

CW

[Tripplebeards]

Thanks for the tip. I was getting nervous because when I went to order that dye from leave last night I put it in my cart and then I procrastinated and tried to Google it to see if I could find it cheaper at a retailer instead of direct. I went back on their site and they said they were out of stock!!!... But my cart still said one so I place the order and they said they shipped it today and gave me a tracking number. I would assume somebody wanted it made and never paid for it? They said it was a custom size overrun. I’ve only been loading for pistol bullets the last two years out of the 25 years of reloading everything else is been rifle so I’m still pretty green in my crimp styles. I found this out when I went to shoot my 77/44 loads that were 5/6” plus at 100 yards the first couple of times at the range. I then ordered that factory crimp Collett die in my average group shrunk to under 2 inches with cast with my best be in .6 and .8 with two different loads. For a green pea like me I think that Collett crimped I really helps. As far as my 450 bushmaster I use the hornady factory taper crimp on that. I would assume I can’t get away without a crimp on the 450 bushmaster? Never tried it but I would assume my boolits would shift with the extra rounds in the mag from recoil.

[megasupermagnum]

The collet crimp die works great for what you want to do. It's what I use whenever possible. It can close the brass as you want no problem, or you can put a serious crimp on it, or anywhere in between.