View Full Version : Basic question on real black and fouling
brewer12345
11-08-2019, 05:11 PM
I have mostly shot fairly clean subs. I tried olde eynesford today and had a hard time dealing with fouling. I tried running a dry patch down the bore and could barely get it out. What am I doing wrong?
I always use a Damp patch on anything I shoot
brewer12345
11-08-2019, 06:28 PM
Ah. I assume this is just barely damp?
country gent
11-08-2019, 06:37 PM
You don't say what you were shooting. Patched round balls, sabots, bullets? The lube used is not just to make loading easier and slow leading but to help with fouling control. The lube keeps the fouling soft. Lube can make a big difference in fouling. Crisco, SPG, light vegetable oils, along with some commercial made ones all work. For patched round balls work into patches. ( melt and soak patches or rub in with fingers ) For bullets minnies maxies work into work into grooves with fingers. For sabots a small amount placed in the bases cup. Dry hot conditions make real black harder to control the fouling.
There are a lot of home made lubes for muzzle loaders also. Crisco works well water pump oil mixed with water does good ( moose milk). Most fats and lards can be used when rendered down.
Pipefitter
11-08-2019, 06:51 PM
Mix equal parts Murphy's oil soap, rubbing alcohol, and 3% hydrogen peroxide, (keep it in a dark bottle such as the peroxide comes in) one damp patch followed by 2 dry patches will work for cleaning the bore.
brewer12345
11-08-2019, 07:05 PM
I was shooting patched ball with pre lubed patches. I think I just need to use a damp patch. I was using light charges so it took a long time to turn the bore into a sewer pipe.
indian joe
11-08-2019, 07:14 PM
mix equal parts H2O + H2O + H2O +H2O - shake it for half an hour (on the floor of yr pickup on the way to the range will work) one damp patch and a couple dry should do it
Good Cheer
11-08-2019, 07:38 PM
Yo brewer.
Various brands and granulations of black will leave different amounts of fouling with different loads in different guns in different kinds of weather. The amount of which type of lube that the burning powder is exposed to will also change the fouling. And too much of the wrong lube and you can get a tar ball clogging the ignition channel:p, not that it will probably ever happen to you but did to me. Nothing is ever simple is it?
Tinkering with your piece will be the way to find out what is going to work best for your shooting.
1Hawkeye
11-08-2019, 07:43 PM
Damp patch and a good lube is the cure. I doesn't need to be ringing wet just damp enough you can tell its damp. A couple of swabs between shots and your good to go. Also a good lube will help keep the fowling soft So you could get a shot or two between swabbing.
A Damp patch is exactly that , Damp.
It should not drip liquid if you squeeze it.
If I suspect that the patch I used was Wet , then I follow it up with a dry patch before loading the next round.
But when I am Done shooting for the day , I run a Wet Patch thru the bore , then clean the rifle good when I get home.
mix equal parts H2O + H2O + H2O +H2O - shake it for half an hour (on the floor of yr pickup on the way to the range will work) one damp patch and a couple dry should do it
what joe said ^^^^^^
that process and stuff has worked extremely well for hundreds of years ....
dave951
11-08-2019, 08:50 PM
I have mostly shot fairly clean subs. I tried olde eynesford today and had a hard time dealing with fouling. I tried running a dry patch down the bore and could barely get it out. What am I doing wrong?
First off, what are you shooting? Round ball? Minie ball?
I've used Old E with great success in competition shooting minies and smoothbore. No problems at all with fouling. With Old E, I can shoot 40+ minies with no fouling issues. That said, I'm using beeswax/lard as my minie lube.
Since you say the fouling is hard, I have to ask what you're using as a lube? Anything petroleum based is going to render the fouling like concrete.
... Anything petroleum based is going to render the fouling like concrete.
not exactly so ... "gato feo #1" is a 19th century bullet lube that is a blend of 1 part sheep tallow, 1 part canning paraffin (gulf, etc), 1/2 part beeswax, and this lube will not foul front or rear stuffers. it was reported by mr. ugly cat himself that a chemist explained how canning paraffin lacks the hydrocarbons that other petroleum products contain, which are the culprits of that hard fouling. after a few decades of first hand experience with gato feo i've never had any fouling issues with lubed bpcr bullets or lubed muzzy patches. i rub it on patch strips and heat gun it into the cloth weave. the resulting lubed cloth strips aren't at all tacky and are rolled up, stuck in the shooting bag, or used to load a ball board. once i counted over 2 dozen consecutive gato feo patched shots with a .50 flinter and zero fouling control required. my powder of choice is always 3f swiss for tube and pan.
dave951
11-08-2019, 10:59 PM
In the general context of lube, I wouldn't consider paraffin a petroleum product because of the hydrocarbon makeup so it's off the hook.
In the Scout project we ran this last summer, I ran an 1863 Remington Contract (aka Zouave) over 50 shots straight with no loss of accuracy. Fouling and loading was no worse than that on the 4th shot. Powder was basic 3f Schutzen, not as clean as Swiss, but nevertheless, the lube combo ran and ran and ran.
waksupi
11-09-2019, 09:54 AM
Mix equal parts Murphy's oil soap, rubbing alcohol, and 3% hydrogen peroxide, (keep it in a dark bottle such as the peroxide comes in) one damp patch followed by 2 dry patches will work for cleaning the bore.
No hydrogen peroxide in firearms!
charlie b
11-09-2019, 10:27 AM
I use Windex when at the range and trying to shoot small groups (followed by a dry patch). Just more convenient for me as the Windex dries faster.
But, I am also shooting paper patched slugs or a lubed bullet with a lubed felt wad behind them.
As others mentioned, it sounds like you need a better lube. I could shoot a ton of patched round balls without needing to swab the bore.
Beerd
11-09-2019, 01:53 PM
Regular old spit works well. It's readily available and costs less than store bought too.
..
Outpost75
11-09-2019, 02:05 PM
Indian Joe has it right. WATER!
Hydrogen peroxide causes rust. OK for "browning" barrels, but not in your bore.
Windex only works because it is mostly water. The alcohol and ammonia in it doesn't add anything.
A wee bit of Murphy's oil soap or Ivory as a surfactant does no harm, but really isn't necessary.
Leftover coffee from breakfast, urine or water soaked up from a muddy hoofprint works if it's all you have.
[Horseshoe prints are good. Unshod wild mustang and Indian pony prints are the very best.
Bear, cougar, mule and elk prints are also acceptable. Avoid cow, dog and coyote prints!]
Sarcasm mode OFFF
HOT water which evaporates of its own heat is favored, but if used you MUST absolutely oil bore IMMEDIATELY to prevent "flash" rusting of the bore. Plain USDA H1 food grade mineral oil from the pharmacy is best. Avoid "modern" gun oils having tons of space-age additives cowboys never heard of which are hard to remove and attack your BP.
SPG lube is best of the mass produced lubes.
If you mix your own lube a common mix is 50-50 by liquid melted volume of natural beeswax blending with either olive or canola oil, mutton or beef tallow, lard or Crisco.
In hot weather over 90 degs. F and for Cowboy cartridge loads use 1:3 oil, beeswax.
If you cannot get natural beeswax a 50-50 blend of Gulf canning wax (paraffin) and Vaseline is used with some success.
If you must use a substitute for natural beeswax using anhydrous lanolin to blend with paraffin as a plasticiser instead of Vaseline is much better.
Bag Balm also works for this purpose.
longcruise
11-09-2019, 03:12 PM
Regular old spit works well. It's readily available and costs less than store bought too.
..
Yes it's as simple as anything else to shoot all day without wiping. Low humidity won't effect it the way it can with some of the miracle lubes.
I have shot some respectable scores by Loading a well slobbered on patch without wiping all day.
gon2shoot
11-09-2019, 04:40 PM
It would appear that a cotton cloth impregnated with tobbaco juice is acceptable.
Outpost75
11-09-2019, 05:41 PM
It would appear that a cotton cloth impregnated with tobbaco juice is acceptable.
That would be true. Purists prefer cut plug, but I am told that Red Man is also OK.
Geezer in NH
11-09-2019, 07:19 PM
No hydrogen peroxide in firearms!
I disagree the formula given is a favorite at friendship.
I have used it for years in competition no problems.
Kinda like the thing about flash rust. After bluing a few thousand barrels I can tell you everyone's barrel modern or ML that has been blued has had the dreaded internet problem of flash rust.
After shooting and cleaning , then oiling and applying a rust preventative there is no problem with Hydrogen peroxide at 3% level.
The guns used in competition cast a couple thousand dollars each and I had no worry using it.
I disagree the formula given is a favorite at friendship. ...
ever since the NMLRA banned "blowing down the barrel", something they had rightfully endorsed for decades as a clear safety measure, anything coming from that org is something i suspect.
H2O2 is absolutely NOT friendly to metals - it is an oxidizer and salt, when left on metal, it is corrosive and will cause rust. sure sure, it's down and out the barrel and cleaned up quick, right? no thank you, i won't gamble with my black powder guns, i'll pass.
however, there is no need for anything other than plain tap water for issues of both fouling control and cleaning of any black powder firearms, followed by patch drying and a decent lubricant to protect. yes, there can be salts in tap water, particularly if the water emanates from a water softener system. use distilled water - still lots cheaper than any of the dozens of concoctions hawked as "muzzleloader cleaners". if there is a need for something more invasive than H2O, the firearm has not been been well maintained and typically somewhere along the line fouling had not been immediately addressed.
indian joe
11-09-2019, 07:49 PM
I was shooting patched ball with pre lubed patches. I think I just need to use a damp patch. I was using light charges so it took a long time to turn the bore into a sewer pipe.
If you shoot a damp moose milk patch on the ball EVERY shot will be going down the barrel clean and same as the previous shot - I have shot fifty + shots in competition this way with NO deterioration in accuracy and NO accumulated fouling from second shot to last - I cap the bore between events and fire a fouling shot (full charge) at the start of each string just to be sure.
This does not work for hunting where the piece may remain loaded for several hours (moisture can migrate into the powder charge) - that needs a different approach with a greasy/heavier/drier lube that will likely see you fouled out in six or seven shots - but for range shooting damp moose milk patch rules supreme.
indian joe
11-09-2019, 07:52 PM
ever since the NMLRA banned "blowing down the barrel", something they had rightfully endorsed for decades as a clear safety measure, anything coming from that org is something i suspect.
H2O2 is absolutely NOT friendly to metals - it is an oxidizer and salt, when left on metal, it is corrosive and will cause rust. sure sure, it's down and out the barrel and cleaned up quick, right? no thank you, i won't gamble with my black powder guns, i'll pass.
however, there is no need for anything other than plain tap water for issues of both fouling control and cleaning of any black powder firearms, followed by patch drying and a decent lubricant to protect. yes, there can be salts in tap water, particularly if the water emanates from a water softener system. use distilled water - still lots cheaper than any of the dozens of concoctions hawked as "muzzleloader cleaners". if there is a need for something more invasive than H2O, the firearm has not been been well maintained and typically somewhere along the line fouling had not been immediately addressed.
Yes on all counts!!!!!
moose milk is one of a buncha patch concoctions that works quite well for fired shot fouling control. so does straight bear oil or sheep tallow. as does saliva spit. all of this stuff is wet. i prefer a pre-lube, something dryer that's ready to go and carried in the shooting bag or ball board, but NOT as dry as dutch's moose milk prepped patches - that stuff never worked well with how i prefer to load a patched ball. that's why i've gone to gato feo for a patch lube. but that bear oil is something else! great stuff!
M-Tecs
11-09-2019, 08:10 PM
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?63069-Recipe-for-Mike-Venturino-s-bore-cleaner-Windex
indian joe
11-09-2019, 08:22 PM
moose milk is one of a buncha patch concoctions that works quite well for fired shot fouling control. so does straight bear oil or sheep tallow. as does saliva spit. all of this stuff is wet. i prefer a pre-lube, something dryer that's ready to go and carried in the shooting bag or ball board, but NOT as dry as dutch's moose milk prepped patches - that stuff never worked well with how i prefer to load a patched ball. that's why i've gone to gato feo for a patch lube. but that bear oil is something else! great stuff!
No bears downunder!!! plenty sheep though - what best to use - kidney fat ? or fat rendered from normal cooking? can do either.
i tried the dried out moose milk patches - no go for me - will shoot the damp moose milk till I quit in normal target matches - (dont have enough dribble in me for ten shots in a row! so spit patch is out unless I get caught short)
brewer12345
11-09-2019, 09:04 PM
OK, so moose milk formula is? When I google I get recipes for some sort of dessert.
M-Tecs
11-09-2019, 09:07 PM
OK, so moose milk formula is? When I google I get recipes for some sort of dessert.
https://forums.sassnet.com/index.php?/topic/232714-what-is-moose-milk/
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?58819-moose-milk-ingrediant-question
https://www.n-ssa.net/vbforum/showthread.php/18292-Moose-Milk-recipe-with-NAPA-cutting-oil/page2
http://muzzleloadermag.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/20610091/m/9074010528
there are more than a few ingredient recipes for "moose milk". water soluble oil mixed in water is the bare bones essence, in varying rations from 1:2 (oil:water) to 1:X. a 1:6 mix is fairly common, but to each their own and there are plenty of "owns".
the original dutch schoultz mm recipe for fouling control ...
1 part of Ballistol (or any water soluble oil such as NAPA)
1 Part Pinesol
2 parts 3% Hydrogen Peroxide
20 Parts water
however, patch strips are to be wetted with just an oil:water mixture and left to dry off on a level surface. the oil remains to "dry lube" the patch cloth.
brewer12345
11-09-2019, 10:02 PM
Thanks.
RU shooter
11-10-2019, 01:34 AM
Everyone has their favorite lube that works well for them in their barrel be it deep or shallow grooves.but for swabbling the bore between shots or every two or three shot all you need is just give your patch a lick or three with yer toungue and that's moist enough that it's not gonna stick inthe bore and you'll be able to load your next shot easily I have to do this every two shots using tracks mink oil as the patch lube it's a fairly shallow groove barrel but that's just my hunting lube for a woods walk or target time I use a spit patch and don't need to wipe the bore at all . No special formulas are needed . So you can make it as simple or fancy as you want with lubes and swabbing they all work
indian joe
11-10-2019, 04:24 AM
OK, so moose milk formula is? When I google I get recipes for some sort of dessert.
cutting oil and water 1:5 works at my place
Maven
11-10-2019, 10:09 AM
My experience with household variety H2O2 (2% - 3%) mirrors Geezer's. As he said, just make sure you dry the bore and use a good [rust] preventer/preservative afterward. (I live in the often humid Hudson Valley and have 0 problems with bore rusting following its use.)
indian joe
11-10-2019, 06:31 PM
My experience with household variety H2O2 (2% - 3%) mirrors Geezer's. As he said, just make sure you dry the bore and use a good [rust] preventer/preservative afterward. (I live in the often humid Hudson Valley and have 0 problems with bore rusting following its use.)
The bigger question is what useful purpose does it actually serve? Sure you can pour it in there and get it out again without killing your barrel - but what is actually achieved that cant be done using plain water - my short answer = nothing. (obviously some others have a different view - lets see some science to support that)
Maven
11-10-2019, 07:24 PM
It works faster than H20 and really does a good job removing BP fouling from your hands. Btw, I mostly use it for a quick soak and cleaning at the end of a range session, but I often use warm water with a bit of dish detergent when I get home.
triggerhappy243
11-10-2019, 09:49 PM
I do not shoot round ball enough, guess I should. But when I do, I swab between every shot. Sometimes if it is difficult to get a patch down the bore, I need to resort to dampening the patch. I have used this T/C #13 for as long as I can remember. What I like about it, is it makes the fouling stick to the patch instead of flake off and drop down to the breech plug. I used to work for walmart and knew when all these items would go on clearance. And, Yes, I swept them all into my cart on the way out.
bob208
11-10-2019, 11:15 PM
I have been shooting in matches since 85 all I use is spit. about 60 shots in a day no fouling problems at all. if I do have to wipe just use a patch I held in my mouth for the last shot.
indian joe
11-12-2019, 06:37 PM
I have been shooting in matches since 85 all I use is spit. about 60 shots in a day no fouling problems at all. if I do have to wipe just use a patch I held in my mouth for the last shot.
Bob I know it works - a few shots yeah - just aint got enough spit in me to do a match :-x
i simply don't wanna spit. prelubed patch strips and ball board loads with patching embedded with gato feo are my answer. works flawlessly.
LabGuy
11-12-2019, 08:40 PM
I wipe after each shot. Patches are cut from muslin linen. I toss them in a ziplock, give about 3 squirts of Ballistol, about a tablespoon of water, and a tablespoon of isopropyl alcohol. I squeeze the excess liquid out before use, so they are damp, but not wet. I run a patch down, turn it over and run it down again after each shot.
Regular old spit works well. It's readily available and costs less than store bought too.
..
I agree I take a cleaning patch put it on my tongue & wet it just as they have for years when I,m in the field.
Work Great. If you shooting at the range & do not mind some thing extra to carry, Windex is very good. Some real BP
burns dirtier than others. The Swiss powder are not bad. It comes down to what charcoal the are using in the mix.
Fly
Racing
11-13-2019, 07:37 PM
Lot of split hairs...
Look. No reason to make this harder then it is.
Damp patch or not? It depends iīd say,and especially so on the amount of lube used..and i bet thereīs as many opinions as thereīs shooters on that too.
Me i vary. It all depends. A while back for SnG i fooled around with how much lube was needed to keep my Whitworth rolling no matter what and truth be told i donīt believe itīs ever been that easy to load the thing.
This a rifle with a rep,deserved,for needing a patch every second shot.
As late as today it was my 43cal Wesson and my 41cal Swiss 1851 Schuetzen. The latter..patch. The Wesson,let her roll..just make sure thereīs lube enough onboard.
Accuracy,and how itīs affected,is another matter. On that count to each his own and YMMV but..as far as just keeping the bore "loadable" still...see above.
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