Trip to Front Sight for Tactical Shotgun Course.

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK guys I just got back from Front Sight last night, after doing a 4 day Practical Rifle Class and a 2 day Tactical Shotgun Class.

The Shotgun Class was way more FUN! I had already shot for 3 days in the Rifle class, so I was starting to get a little tired and by the end yesterday I was pretty beat,,, and then I drove home for 6 hours? Still had a great time and I recommend it highly to all here. Using a shotgun for Home Defense is not like shooting Doves or Ducks. It is an exercise on learning just how formidable a weapon a shotgun can be. A real eye opener for most people.

We spent two full days blasting steel and paper targets learning how to operate a Shotgun in various ways that would enhance our survivability in a gun fight if the need ever arose. This class basically takes you from not knowing which end is the business end to being able to engage virtually any kind of target or multiple targets, Clearing Malfunctions, using different types of ammo for different things, and general safe handling and manipulation of the gun.

I have been to this class 5 times now and I learn something new every time along with having an absolute blast.

This time I took both my Browning Auto 5, and my Mossberg 500. Ran the Browning on day one and til mid morning day 2 and then switched to the Pump Gun as I hadn't shot the M500 for a while. In all I shot just short of 300 rounds of birdshot, buck and slugs.

Both guns performed flawlessly and I can safely report that after 300 rounds I have no marks or bruises whatsoever on my body. Getting your gun sussed out before you go is well worth the effort, we had one young guy shooting next to us with a 590A1, and he was hooting full power slugs and jsut getting the snot beat out of him. He said he wanted the experience. I gave him a low recoil slug and realized the error in his judgement. after the class I showed him my numarked shoulder and he showed me his ground beef shoulder.

Part of this was due to the barrel on the Mossberg having had the Vang Comp treatment done, and the Browning barrel getting just the porting done by them. The M500 patterns 00 Buck into a 4" circle at 15 yards and 7" at 25. Found out this time it doesn't shoot 000 buck worth spit. 8 balls randomly dumped into a hull doesn't work nearly as good as 9 balls stacked neatly in 3 layers. The Browning Barrel is about 10" at 15 yards which is a little better than most, but not as good as the m500 barrel with the full Vang Comp Treatment. www.vangcomp.com

My slug shooting was not my usual small groups at 35 and 50 yards, after the rifle class I was getting tired and it showed. The beauty of shotguns is that they are more of an "Area Coverage" type of thing as opposed to a pinpoint accuracy type thing, so being a little tired is not as much of a handicap as it is with the rifles.

Anyway, I highly recommend this course and this school for all of you. We had people from as far away as Australia in this class and many from Texas and farther east as well.

I'm going back next spring, see you there?

www.frontsight.com

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

As a side note on this trip,,, I Sent the Browning Buck Special Smoothbore Barrel to Vang Comp for Porting before I went on this trip. This virtually eliminated muzzle rise during recoil. I was getting about 2-3" per shot.

When it came back there were lots of burrs on the inside left behind after the drilling of the ports. I knew this would eventually shoot out but I also knew that the burrs would act like a cheese grater on the wads as they passed thru and make the barrel a real problem to clean up.

I went to my local Industrial Supply and ordered 400 and 800 grit Flex Hones made for honing Shotgun barrels. Not cheap at $55 each but after I was done the results were completely worth it.

I ran these with the barrel lug clamped in a vice and a trash can under both ends to catch the oil. I used regular cutting oil from my Lathes and ran the hones at about 300 rpms. It took about 3 minutes with both hones and the results were spectacular.

If you have looked at a Quality Shotgun Barrel you will notice a very high degree of polish. This barrel was essentially like a mirror inside and that is why I didn't do the full Vang Comp Treatment, just the porting. ($55). I was afraid it wouldn't shoot as well afterwards.

Well the results were as good or better than what Miroku did. But the real improvement was during cleaning the barrel yesterday. I had shot 200+ rounds thru that gun with mostly Walmart Winchester birdshot, some Federal 000 buck and Federal Slugs.

One pass with a Bore Snake !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and the bore was back to Mirror Finish!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Previously this barrel required plastic solvents and bore brushes on a drill and about 45 minutes to get clean.

I was blown away! Looks like my $110 bucks in tools paid for themselves in one use.

Also they'll be written off as "Shop Supplies or Tools" at Tax Time.

Can't beat that.

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

Oh I forgot. I picked up a bunch of the Federal Low Recoil Blue Slug Hulls, I got about 100 of them. These hulls reload so well it is criminal and are absolutely the hot tip for loading Lyman and Lee slugs. No need to waste your nice Cheddites or Rios on you plinking or 3 gun ammo. They roll crimp back closed nearly perfectly and I have developed a new way to recondition these hulls.Look at the new thread...

You should keep your eyes peeled for them. Also go to Harbor Freight and pick up one of the Old Guy Pick up tools with the suction cups on the ends. They work so well for picking up spent hulls and brass it is also criminal. No more bending over to retrieve stuff.

Note pick of reloaded hull? Looks good huh?

Randy

[tomme boy]

I have used round abrasive cord to clean up a couple Mossberg ported barrels. It worked really well.

Sounds like you had fun. Glad you got that Browning running. It was looking like it was not going to work out for you at the start of the project. What was the cost of the classes?

[longbow]

You are just having too much fun Randy! I'm jealous! Maybe once I get retired I'll have more shooting and fun time... less money but more time. I can make do on the money part but its been far too long since I had fun. I do have the Slugster barrel shimmed and a bunch of slugs loaded so now to make time to blast some lead down range!

You've got your priorities right that's for sure!

Are those flex hones like:

http://www.brushresearch.com/brushes.php?c2=6

I would have thought the typical 2 or 3 shoe cylinder hone like this:

https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/shotgun-tools/barrel-hones-accessories/shotgun-barrel-hone-prod7930.aspx

would be the choice since the stones are long and flat. I see that the Flex-Hones are recommended though. Just found an article on them. Live and learn!

Also, I guess the Flex-Hone would tend to round the edges of the ports a bit so they aren't sharp edged where the stone would just remove burrs leaving a sharp right angle edge.

How did slugs shoot through the ported barrel? No issues with gas seals being damaged?

After all this training at Front Sight you must be a deadly old guy! Remind me not to pee you off!

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

I had some issues with the guy who sold me the barrel and thinking it was rifled when it turned out to be Smooth Bore, it works for all kinds of shot just fine, I also bought a Hasting Rifled Barrel for the gun which works really well for Full Bore Slugs.

But the gun has ran perfectly from the start and after the last class when I figured out how to run it efficiently, This time was more of the same except I'm only getting 2-3" of muzzle rise during recoil. I have been to 5 of these classes now so I know what is coming as far as what we are doing, so it just becomes a transition to a different guns operation.

The ones I got were from that Brush Research place thru my local store. The Brand Name is "Flex-Hone." They look like a bunch of abrasive dingle balls on a wire shaft. Run with a drill motor. Worked great.

Kent: Everything we do in that class is contained in that book I sent you. If you practiced it dry fire and then went to a class and drilled the stuff Live Fire you'd be up to snuff in no time at all.

Where this all comes into practical use is when the bear charges you, you react quickly and decisively to end said charge.

There are "People Shooting Skills" taught in this class as well,,, mainly because it is a "Tactical Shotgun Class," and animals seldom use People Tactics so they teach you how to defend against 2 legged aggressors.

Where you live (I have looked at the street map of your town.) it is more likely that a bear would invade your home. Not so much in Ojai CA where the intruder would most likely be a "Tweaker." (Speed Freak) who would just as soon kill you as look at you. Unfortunately for said Tweaker, at my home the encounter would also involve my HD M500 with 00 Buckshot. See Pic. Which due to my previous 5 Tactical Shotgun Classes I can run effectively under pressure.

Please understand,,, I don't "Want to Kill" anyone! My intention would only be to "stop them" from continuing their aggression towards me and my Family. (including the Cats)

This "Mindset" was also a byproduct of this class. They don't teach you to "kill people," they teach you how to "stop fights" effectively.

[tomme boy]

You should have a 2000lb bull cow charge you. Had that happen years ago when out deer hunting. The neighbors bull got through a broken fence. He was not a nice bull.

I came walking out of the timber and he was grazing in the middle of a bean field about 40 yds from me. He turned and seen me and started to run right at me. I about pooped my pants! I fired a round in front of him as he was charging to hope he stopped. He kept coming. Right as I was about to brain box him, he stopped at about 15 yds.

We both stood there looking at each other. He then slowly turned and walked off. What took about 30 sec seemed like an HOUR! Went over to the neighbors and told him about what happened. He then tells me I should have shot him. He says he hates that bull and the only reason he is still alive is his bucket tractor is not running and he needs to dig a pit for him.

I seen a class that does this type of scenario. The cardboard bear is attached to a remote controlled tank thing.

Did they have that at your class?

[W.R.Buchanan]

Tommy: They have something like that at Gunsite, and it's in their Safari Prep Class. The class I was in was more about Gun Handling and some Tactical Training like shooting around cover.

In that scenario you had above, after I shot the one into the ground, I would have done a Select Slug Drill and quickly changed to a Slug so if the Bull had decided to mow me down I could deal with him more effectively than with Birdshot or even Buckshot.

To do this you stuff the slug into your magazine and hit the slide release and waste the round that is in the chamber ending with a Slug chambered and ready to fire.

This is usually done when a target presents itself at a longer range than birdshot or buckshot can deal with.

Randy

[megasupermagnum]

I have a question for you, possibly on the shotgun pictured in post #6, but a general question for you or anyone else you may have come across. That question is have you found a good set of sights that still allow you to shoot a shotgun as a shotgun, and also shoot slugs accurately? I ask about the shotgun in post #6, because I do not see a rear sight. I'm not a defensive shotgun guy, I'm not a competition shooter, but I've always been trying to make a universal shotgun that often resembles those used by 3 gun shooters and to a lesser extent the defensive guys. Mine have evolved over time, as everyone's do. I've tried the plain 18.5" barrel with bead, I've tried bird guns, I've tried slug guns. My most recent is a turkey gun that I put a set of fiber optic sights on, and flashlight. I've found the flashlight is a much needed addition, however, rifle sights are very much a hindrance for fast shotgun use. Great for slugs, not so much for snap shooting a bird or even buckshot. Along with that, it turns out the Elzetta flashlight mount I've been using moves slug POI about 12" to the left from being sighted in without it. I'm going to try a fore end mount next. I find 20"-24" barrels far more useful than 18.5".

Because of all this, I've been taking a look at the Mossberg 590A1 #51660, a 9 shot 20" plain barrel bead sight. The 8 shot tube would be a welcome upgrade over the standard 5 shot tube. I'm also considering the 590 #50645, which is similar but a thinner/lighter barrel. It has a heat shield which I've tried before, and took off. No big deal. The A1 has the stock I want, but a heavy barrel, and the 590 has a short stock and light barrel.

Anyway, I think a 20" plain barrel might be the ticket. My only wonder is sights. One idea I've had is to install a flip up sight like the Lyman #16 folding sight. Use the shotgun as a shotgun until a longer shot presents itself, then it's just a quick flip up of the rear sight. Sounds good in theory, who knows about actuality. Have you seen anything similar?

[W.R.Buchanan]

Mega: The rifle sights are no hindrance whatsoever as far as snap shooting. Once you learn how to mount the gun properly your sight alignment is there as soon as you mount the gun. You simply put the front sight on the target and let fly.

Keep in mind this is a shotgun and aiming in the general vicinity of the target is probably going to be good enough. With buckshot, a cylinder bore shotgun will pattern 15" at 15 yards. IE: you don't need pinpoint shot placement to yield the desired effect, as you have 9 .30 caliber balls going downrange at 1300 fps or more.

Also keep in mind this is a "Tactical Shotgun," not a bird gun. When you are shooting slugs you are essentially shooting a .73 Caliber Rifle or Musket.

The biggest problem when it comes to accurate slug shooting with a simple bead is consistent windage indexing of the bead to the receiver. That's normally what the rear sight does for you.

The gun in the picture would have rifle sights if I could find a 18.5" M500 barrel with them mounted. Not economical to have them mounted, so I am mulling over a rear sight that I could make in my shop and install on the receiver. As it sits that gun has an XS Big Dot Tritium Sight on the front and nothing on the back. I'd prefer a open rear sight mounted on the barrel as I shoot open sight pretty well.

Typically with a Bead Front Sight you index the bottom of the bead itself even with the top of the receiver, however that is not always the sight picture that will yield a POA hit. You can't adjust a bead sight so you have to know where the gun shoots and compensate accordingly. So with perfect sight alignment the gun shoots a foot to the left and low or high you have to compensate and aim accordingly. IMHO this sucks. I don't have time to do a compensated shot every time, I want the gun to shoot to the sights.

In your case I would highly recommend getting a 590A1 with ghost ring sights. Models to look at are 51665,51773 IMHO. Then go to a real Tactical Shotgun Class where they cover everything from which end of the gun is the business end, to all of the nuances of keeping a tactical shotgun running and shooting. There is very little about Bird Hunting that applies here. About the only type of hunting that is similar is "Pig Hunting in Texas." Which is more akin to extermination with bacon, ham or ribs as a perk..

In the class the guy next to me had a new 51665 with the wood furniture and it was a good looking gun. After the class he sent his barrel to Vang Comp for the full treatment which makes the gun shoot much tighter and recoil smoother. 00 into 7" at 25 yards!

I also showed him all the places to touch up parts internally to make the gun run much smoother. A little attention to the internals will eliminate many hundreds of rounds of shooting to break the gun in.

hope this explains some of this better.

Randy

[megasupermagnum]

You are absolutely correct from a combat shotgun standpoint. What I'm trying to do is still keep a shotgun bird capable. A jack of all trades if you will. For that, rifle sights definitely make hitting clays much harder than a bead. I've never got to shoot a 9 shot 590 or 590A1. I just feel a 20" heavy barrel, plus a full tube of 8 shells has got to be front heavy. Great for combat use but again, I'm putting a higher emphasis on wing shooting.

Gallery of guns is out of stock of the 590A1, but has the 590 I want in stock, and on sale. I can have it for $420 which includes shipping, taxes, FFL and all. I installed ghost ring sights on one of my 500's for a while. The problem was it was not accurate with slugs. Best I could get was around 5-6" at 50 yards. The fix for that is to either shim or pin the barrel, which I am not willing to do. That gun now the Williams vent rib fire sights, and will shoot 3" at 50 yards with brenneke classic slugs, plus works far and away better at night. With the flashlight mounted on the side, the front sight glows at night, and you can see the rear well enough. I'm now up to two fox with that gun.

[megasupermagnum]

Here is exactly to a T what I have in mind. http://www.hallowellco.com/express.htm

That folding leaf sight, soldered to the barrel. It would be filed such that it was barely visible above the receiver, and windage adjustable. The elevation would then be adjusted with different height front sights or beads. Not precision equipment at all, but definitely adequate for my purposes, and folds down out of the way for wing shooting.

Odd idea I know, but I've not been happy with ghost rings, rifle sights are ok, a bead sight is ok. I feel like somewhere between a rifle sight and a bead sight is a happy compromise. Either that, or I need to find a stock with a taller comb to match the rifle sights.

[Drm50]

I put the rear sight off a post 64 Win 70 375 H&H and large ivory bead on front of a M12 Win. It was a FC that had been cut and Poly choke installed. I cut to 20" and installed sights. Killed deer with slugs and used it on rabbits and grouse. The rear was a very shallow V designed for dangerous game at close range. Excellent for slug and shot.

I have a lot of experience shooting factory slug gun and cutting guns down for slugs. Every once in a while you will run into a gun that will shoot slugs very well over just front bead. When I say well Im talking 9" at 100yds.
With sights 3" at 100 yds would be a good gun. This is smooth bore guns. Most guns I put together have Williams ramps on front and rears are off the older series Rem 700s with elevator. The new rifled barrels with sabot slugs have produced rifle like groups but I stuck with A5 that I cut and put above sights on it. The thing you must keep in mind is short barrels with shot are close range guns even for birds and small game. I also had a cut down A5 that I had a Redding Reciever sight on. It had 181/2" barrel and was a good slug gun but I didn't like it for shot. I sold it but kept the sight because it is a rare bird and made to fit the hump on A5. I have same model sight on a m81 Rem.

[megasupermagnum]

Barrel length means nothing for shot. That turkey gun I keep referencing is a M500 with a 20" barrel. With most turkey loads and a turkey choke, it will put around 80 pellets inside of a 10" circle at 40 yards. That's no better than my actual turkey gun, a muzzleloader, with a 28" barrel. Even my Ithaca Mag10 with 32" barrel and very tight fixed full choke can only marginally beat them out, and it's shooting 1/2 oz more shot.

I really think I may be on to something with the folding sight. I'm seeing two good options, the Lyman #16 folding leaf, and a single folding leaf blank sight by NECG. The real trick will be how I get it mounted on the barrel. Likely I'll need to make my own base, solder it on, and then file my own dovetail in it to get it as low profile as I want. It's just money right? Mossberg 590's are easy to sell.

[W.R.Buchanan]

The Gray M500 shown above also has a 24" Rifled barrel I can run, and if I wanted I could easily get a bird barrel off Ebay for $50-100, then I'd have an actual bird shooting shotgun too. The M500's have more barrel choices than the 590 or 590A1 due to the way the barrel is attached to the gun. You might start there as the 590's aren't built for shooting birds at all.

Also that gun shoots #8 birdshot into about 24" at 15 yards. Virtually unusable for any kind of hunting.

I understand what you are trying to do, but I think you'll probably end up with something that doesn't do anything very well.

Randy

[megasupermagnum]

You don't have to tell me, I have four separate 500 barrels, and three of the guns themselves. Here is a little known tid bit, you can use 500 barrels on a 590. All you have to do is swap the magazine tube (with spring and follower) as well. All Mossberg 12 gauge frames are the same. The tube is simply threaded on. Most are loctite'ed on, but not that hard to remove with a vice and something to grip the tube without marring it.

As for actually hunting with it, I don't plan to take it out as my main hunting gun. I'm not sure I can explain why I always keep a gun like this around without making myself look like a tinfoil hat kook. Previous versions were a 500 with 18.5" security barrel. Ok, except it always shot high. As in about 12" high at 15 yards with buckshot, slugs were even higher. That gun evolved into a slug gun with 24" smooth barrel and rifle sights. That's how it still is, very accurate smooth bore slug gun. The sights on it are old school, and not great. What it did offer though was a flip up rear sight, which I do like. If I could get that barrel on a 8/9 shot gun, I would certainly try it. As far as I can tell, none of the barrels for the 8/9 shot tubes ever had rifle sights on them. It was either a bead or a sight for use with a receiver mounted ghost ring. I later put that 24" barrel on another gun that was drilled and tapped, and added a ghost ring. As I said, due to the loose fit in the receiver, accuracy was no better than a bead. All it offered was adjust-ability. On a rifle I really like aperture sights, as they are faster than rifle sights. No sight is as fast as a bead. I actually went back to the 18.5" barrel for a while before buying a 500 turkey gun, and I've described that one plenty. It is not a very accurate slug gun, but it is within my set goal of 4" at 50 yards. That gun also offers removable chokes, and as I said, patterns as well as anything. I took the sights off for a while, and it would make a great gun for something like grouse. I put the sights back on, and like it for what it is. It will probably stay as a backup turkey gun.

[Drm50]

Barrel length means a lot shooting shot loads if you have a cylinder or sawed off barrel. Without choke of some kind it's short range gun. I have a very hi condition 1897 Win that I got cheap after Bubba did a home choke job on it. I was going to make another slug gun out of it. Saved 23.5" of barrel. My gunsmith had just got tooling for Win Chokes and he talked me into threading it for chokes. I have a custom Turkey Choke for it that will shoot as tight as any gun I have ever come across with #6 or smaller, #5s average but #4s lousy.

A buddy of mine has a m11 Rem USN issue with Cutts Choke. He has extra full choke tube for it that shoots a good FC pattern.

[megasupermagnum]

Who said I wasn't going to use a choke? I hate choke tubes, but I think this would be the perfect gun to install an adjustable choke on. This is turning into a full on thread steal from W.R.Buchanan, so I'm going to start a new thread at a later date. After feeling the 590A1 with 20" barrel, I'm pretty well sold on the standard 590. That thick barrel on the A1 is just a brick, and with the magazine full of 8 shells would be like shooting a 4x4.

[Frosty Boolit]

I have to say, I have never had so much fun shooting as i have with the shotgun since I discovered the action shooting stuff. Now, I load all my own shot and slugs and usually load em light but I also put a few lead rods in the buttstock to balance the gun with 7 in the tube. This also brings the weight up to about 9lbs empty and the recoil is almost nothing, so I can blast heavy field loads and even factory 1oz slugs all day long without a sore shoulder. Every time I empty 8 shells on some steel or clays as fast as I can, in my mind I say "never gets old". Hopeless addict here.

[W.R.Buchanan]

After you get your gun so it doesn't beat you to death and learn how to shoot it so it doesn't beat you to death you will find you can shoot alot and not suffer any after effects.

In this last class between the two guns I fired @ 300 rounds. I had no marks or bruises on me at all. This was only a two day class. In the previous 4 day class I fired the M500 @500 rounds with no marks whatsoever. By that time I had the gun sussed out, and also had my shooting technique sussed out as well. So I could concentrate on my basics like sight alignment and trigger control, and running the gun.

I also had the Racking of the Slide during recoil down pat, so that as the gun started the recoil impulse the slide was already moving to the rear. It's called "Riding the Recoil" and is a must have skill for both Tactical Shooting with a Pump Action Shotgun and shooting Skeet with one as well. If you don't run the action real fast you never get a shot at the second bird. Doubles or even triples in the field are also dependent on this skill.

Note: On a Mossberg 500/590 the bolt is locked in battery by the lug that fits into the square hole in the barrel shroud, (Browning System) but is only kept there by the little bolt release lever. Depressing that lever behind the trigger guard allows the slide to be cycled with the gun loaded for unloading or chamber checking. As soon as the hammer falls that lever is pushed down and the bolt and slide are free to move to the rear to eject the spent hull and chamber a new one. Thus you can start reloading the gun as soon as the hammer drops which is usually alot sooner than most can actually do it.

By keeping a small amount of rearward pressure on the slide it starts it's movement as soon as the hammer drops and you continue the movement while the muzzle is rising. You don't have to worry about the gun going off out of battery,,, it can't do that, and the payload is long gone from the barrel in only a few Milliseconds and you ain't that fast.

Another tidbit: When firing slugs off a rest you pinch the action bars in front of the receiver to prevent the slide from moving rearward due to recoil.

There is alot to learn at one of these schools and if you are interested in shooting better going to one is a good thing. Nobody is born knowing all this stuff. Just like everything else you need to get taught what to do and how to do it.

www.frontsight.com

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

Here is exactly to a T what I have in mind. http://www.hallowellco.com/express.htm

That folding leaf sight, soldered to the barrel. It would be filed such that it was barely visible above the receiver, and windage adjustable. The elevation would then be adjusted with different height front sights or beads. Not precision equipment at all, but definitely adequate for my purposes, and folds down out of the way for wing shooting.

Odd idea I know, but I've not been happy with ghost rings, rifle sights are ok, a bead sight is ok. I feel like somewhere between a rifle sight and a bead sight is a happy compromise. Either that, or I need to find a stock with a taller comb to match the rifle sights.

The Magpul SGA Stocks like the one on my gun have different combs available so You can adjust your cheek weld to whatever you need to achieve proper sight alignment. https://www.magpul.com/products/sga-stock-mossberg-500-590-590a1?ProductColor=VO343

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

A buddy of mine has a m11 Rem USN issue with Cutts Choke. He has extra full choke tube for it that shoots a good FC pattern.

After nearly 50 years of owning my Ithaca M37 I have accumulated all of the Cutts Choke tubes and the wrench.

They go Spreader, Improved Cylinder (shown), Modified, Full, Extra Full, and Extra Extra Full. For bird hunting it has always been the Modified tube. These are getting expen$ive on Ebay!

Haven't found a decent Lyman/Cutts Wood Box for them yet, but always looking.

This gun is NOT going to Front Sight!!!

Randy