Ladle or bottom pour?

[Blackwater]

I know this is a thorny question, but I once had a big Saeco pot empty itself, and have been very leary of them ever since, regardless of brand, etc. However, I DO at least know that in this regard, at least, I'm obviously a bit like the cat who sat on a hot stove lid, and now won't sit on a cold one, either, so ....

My question really is this: Of those of you who use both types, what do you find that one does better than the other, generally speaking? I've heard many say that big bullets, such as those commonly used in BPCR's, tend to respond best to a ladle, at least GENERALLY - exceptions being the gold standard of our beloved casting pursuits.

So .... who can comment on this with their personal observations?

[Buckshot]

............I believe that overall ladel casting will deliver the boolits most consistant in weight over a large run. The pressure and delivery volumn are the same, time after time.

A bottom pour will give you more boolits faster, and easier. I use a bottom pour and I'll scale the output for any real desire towards possible ultimate accuracy. The same thing even a ladle caster will do.

............Buckshot

[Bass Ackward]

Blackwater,

Richard pretty much laid it out for ya as my experience goes.

I add one quirk, single cavity molds get laddled.

[Nazgul]

I agree and use a ladle for BPCR bullets. Use a bottom for volume handgun moulds. My bottom pour pot sits inside a baking pan with small lip that is big enough to contain all the lead if it decided to empty itself.

[Shepherd2]

Great idea about setting the bottom pour inside a baking pan. I'm very leery about walking away from my Lee Drip-o-Matic. I'm going shopping for a baking pan.

[Beau Cassidy]

Rifle boolits get ladle poured. Typically handgun get poured from the bottom of the pot but I am considering going to ladle pouring my hunting handgun bullets because the results are soooo much better. I used to never think I would ladle cast until I tried it last year out of fustration when I was having a difficult time getting .45 cal. rifle mold fillout. Problem solved. Try it. You'll like it.

Beau

[imashooter2]

I make more keepers with a ladle. Not that I am the most experienced guy with a bottom pour, but the consistency of the product just isn't there for me.

[JDL]

imashooter2 hit that one right on the head! A few days ago I thought I'd make a bunch of boolits real quick, so I got out my RCBS bottom pour furnace, 4 cavity NEI mold, and got to work. I cast for 1 hour and, with a 65% rejection rate, got 63 useable boolits. Saturday, I got out my SAECO furnace, ladle, MM double cavity mold and produced 115 useable boolits for a hour of casting, with a rejection rate of 28%. -JDL

[wills]

Ladle versus bottom pour, the ancient controversy, the perpetual dichotomy which characterizes western thought;
Ladle/Bottom Pour
Ford/Chevvy
Mary Anne/Ginger

Perhaps the answer is
Bottom Pour – Camaro – Ginger
Ladle – F250 – Mary Anne

[PA Bullets]

Hi folks ..

I dont know how this applys to casting its more about the moulders i use
so bear with me .

I mould some large diameter core for my jacketed bullet's
.567 .583 .600 .612 .793 these are a few of the cores i mould and i have tried to use the laddle but it makes a poor core it requires me to use a bottom pour for small diameter bullets form .358 and up to .501 i use the laddle . but for me i need a bottom pour ... Then again like i said i am not casting pre say i am moulding core bodys to be run through a core former
for use in jackets and for use in large body swage dies

http://www.bulletsmiths.info/board/viewtopic.php?t=212

http://www.bulletsmiths.info/board/viewtopic.php?t=211


Martin

Owner/PA Bullet's

[The Nyack Kid]

I use a bottom pour RCBS that i modified the spout . i drilled it out to allow more lead to flow out of .And I also use a pour method simlar to Bullshops.
once i get things warmed up (the mold and myself ) i get a very low rejection rate with my 460 to 490 gr 45s . most of the rejects come from tearing the sprue out of the base Vs cutting it .

[McLintock]

I recently went to running two Lee Pro Melts, the ones without bottom pour, for ladel casting of both 45-70 and 38-55 bullets for BPCR stuff. Theypre easy to dip out of and I find I can keep a more constant temperature (800 degrees) than I could with my propane setup. Then I use a Lee bottom pour with one of the Lee Pro Melts helping to keep up with it when doing 6 holers for pistol bullets of various types. Works good for me and not too expensive an overall setup. My bottom pour doesn't drip much once it's heated up, but I found a neat little stainless steel pan about four inches in diameter and 1 1/4" deep for catching drips and overruns. Also use it to make ingots when I want to drain the pot and put another alloy in it. I still use my propane with turkey fryer burner and a big deep cast iron pan for making alloy.
McLintock

[475/480]

I have ladle poured from the beginning (3 years+),usually large to very large pistol bullets 255gr up to 640gr with few problems and just 2 weeks ago got a Magma MasterPot (bottompour) with a (1) and a (2) hole nozzle.So far I have used the 2 hole nozzle on 2 cav and 4 cav moulds,very fast even on big SW 500 cal moulds
The Magma is not only easier on my back but produces bullets just as nicely with few rejects but does it a LOT faster and I can preheat moulds on the top of the MasterPot.Also there is a real temp dial that makes it easier to control the temp.I still have my turkey fryer and 40lb pot but I dont think it will be used very much.


Sean

[pdgraham]

Ladle versus bottom pour, the ancient controversy, the perpetual dichotomy which characterizes western thought;
Ladle/Bottom Pour
Ford/Chevvy
Mary Anne/Ginger

Perhaps the answer is
Bottom Pour – Camaro – Ginger
Ladle – F250 – Mary Anne

:-D

I guess I'm a "Ginger" person at heart... but I'm currently acting out my "Mary Anne" fantasy .. I just built a melter to use my ladle with.. so far .. so good..

[snowwolfe]

For your guys doing the ladle pour, do you just heat the alloy on something like a coleman stove?

[JDL]

snowwolf, I did that for years, but now I use an old SAECO #34 furnace that was made for ladeling and has a thermostat for keeping the melt at a constant temp. -JDL

[anachronism]

I ladle everything, anymore. I can't get bullets that meet my standards for consistency any other way. I have a Lyman Mag 20, but can't make that new-fangled contraption give me good bullets with any consistency.

[imashooter2]

For your guys doing the ladle pour, do you just heat the alloy on something like a coleman stove?

Yep. Gasoline fueled Coleman stove and an old stainless steel pot.

[David R]

It is a preference thing for sure. I ladle poured for many years over a coleman stove. Then I got a LEE 10 lb bottom pour, It was great but didn't have near enough heat, so I got an RCBS pro melt. Haven't uesd a ladle in years and don't plan to.

The last batch I poured testing Bullplate lube, I poured 56 boolits in 5 minutes in a Double cavity mold. I think about 46 of em were within three tenths of a grain. Lets see you do that with a ladle! I have never poured bigger than a 255 gr 45 cal boolit, so I have no idea about that end of it.

My other problem was when using a ladle, I always had problems with the stuff on top of the lead getting in my boolits. Always fluxing and skimming the pot. Now the stuff stays on the top of the pot and the lead I use comes out the bottom.

I'll take Mary Ann, My ford truck, and a bottom pour. Thank You

David

[snowwolfe]

snowwolf, I did that for years, but now I use an old SAECO #34 furnace that was made for ladeling and has a thermostat for keeping the melt at a constant temp. -JDL

Where can I find this furance for sale?

[anachronism]

Where can I find this furance for sale?

Lyman makes a non-bottom pour version of their Mag 20. Also, Bill Ferguson offers lead furnaces now too.

[longhorn]

Or Google "Waage," phone 'em, and buy the best.

[quigleysharps4570]

Yep...Waage. Ask for the K4757...$134 delivered to your door. It's a 25lb. pot. Gets her done for them big bullets.

[JDL]

snowwolf,
The other guys gave you worthy choices and another, less expensive, is the Lee. I got my #34 from a friend who was getting out of casting, but he didn't use it for casting because he thought it was too big, instead he used it for smelting his w/ws. He was very fond of the smaller Lee furnace w/o the bottom pour feature for making boolits. -JDL

[wills]

Yep...Waage. Ask for the K4757...$134 delivered to your door. It's a 25lb. pot. Gets her done for them big bullets.

These are nice folks. And, 10 pounds is just not enough alloy. About the time you get started good, you have to refill the pot and get it up to heat again.

[snowwolfe]

I visited Waages site but can find no mention of the K4757. Could someone post a URL? Thank you.

[wills]

It is not on their website, if you will e mail to the address on the site they will respond. I ordered one and it arrived sooner than they said it would.

[44man]

It is strange to see my own experience finally posted by so many. I have been casting since the early 50's and with three furnaces now, I have never cast decent boolits with a bottom pour. More rejects, half plugged spouts, Some boolits that just never fill out and on and on.
I will stay with my Lyman ladle that I have had since the day I started casting. Only thing I did was to drill out the spout a little.
I have reason to suspect that the lead on the bottom is not as hot as it is on top. Some pots do not get hot enough even when turned all the way up or the thermostat removed. The new Lymans are good for that problem. I like my Lee pots best, cheap and they work fine. I had to buy a bottom pour Lee because the regular pot was out of stock. I only get a tiny drip from the bottom once in a while so I left it alone. On my Lyman, I removed all the junk and plugged the bottom spout. Bottom pour is not worth the trouble. By the time I got anything to work from them, I could cast a few hundred with the ladle.

[quigleysharps4570]

I visited Waages site but can find no mention of the K4757. Could someone post a URL? Thank you.

You'd be better off calling them.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/quigleysharps4570/Waage.jpg

[Blackwater]

Well, thanks for the responses. I'm wondering because, as I said, I may be missing something by being that cat that won't sit on the cold stove lid now. Looks to me like putting sawdust or kitty liter ought to minimize having to flux as much, which would be a bit of a nice thing. I'm also unsure of how to use a 6-cav. mould with a ladle. Do you pour two, dip again and get the next two, then dip again for the final two?

I still can't say I'd be entirely comfortable with my face down close to the spout (dang those bifocals!), but .... I guess an old dawg CAN learn a new trick if he really works at it hard .... maybe.

Continuity of flow using multi-cav moulds seems like it could be an asset to bullet uniformity. Can anyone confirm this, particularly with the 6-cav. Lee's?

[snowwolfe]

Seeing I never plan on buying anything more than a double cavity mold I will take the advise of experts and go with the furance and ladle. Interesting comments by both sides. A few people claim results with a bottom pourer as good as a ladle, but bascially no one claimed the bottom pourer was better. I am sure it would be a new ball game if I choose to buy a 4-6 cavity mold. Thank you.

[carpetman]

Snowwolfe---I started using a ladle and a cast iron pot. After doing this for many years,I bought a Lee bottom pour and I instantly liked it much better. Usually it takes time to adjust to something new,but right off the bat I liked the bottom pour much better. BTW I cast .243's and even .22's and even for those small ones I like the bottom pour better---same for larger stuff too. My reject rate did not increase.

[imashooter2]

-snip-
I'm also unsure of how to use a 6-cav. mould with a ladle. Do you pour two, dip again and get the next two, then dip again for the final two?
-snip-

I pour 3, dip again and pour the second 3. I can usually get at least 4 with a single dip of the Lyman ladle, but since I have to dip twice anyway I settled on 3 and 3 for consistency.

[Blackwater]

Thanks. Just wondered. I don't have a 6-cav yet, but it looks like I probably will soon. Just got a couple more Lee moulds, and thought long and hard about a 6-cav, and will probably be sorry I didn't. Just wasn't sure how best to keep the rhythm consistent so maybe the bullets would be more consistent and thus, more accurate.

[Lloyd Smale]

About all my casting anymore is bottom pour i dont have time to ladle cast id rather be shooting. The biggest trick to bottom pour is keeping consistant. I cast out of one pot and keep the level of the lead cosistant by feeding it by two other pots. Once pour rate is figured for the mold it will produce bullets as good or better then ladle casting at a much higher rate. Especialy with 4 and 6 cavity molds.

[Bodydoc447]

Dumb question for the day: Is the Waage K4757 a bottom pour pot or is it a melting pot for using a ladel? Thanks.

Doc

[sundog]

44man, I did the same thing - opened up the spout with a good sharp twist drill bit, and use the same one by hand to clean it out before every session and smike it inside and out. My very best rifle boolits this way, bases square and completely filled out. Sorta slower than soem other ways, but very high quality boolits and almost no visual rejects. sundog

[wills]

Dumb question for the day: Is the Waage K4757 a bottom pour pot or is it a melting pot for using a ladel? Thanks.

Doc

Ladle

I have an e mail from Mark Waage with a picture of the pot. If you will send me your e mail address by private message, i will forward it to you

[SharpsShooter]

I cast all my 45-70 boolits with a Lee bottom pour and a single cavity mould. If your alloy is clean, it does not drip very often. I usually cast 45-50 (3.5 Pounds of alloy) before adding pre-warmed ignots to the pot. Keeping the pot 2/3 full seems to maintain a consistant flow rate and temperature. I cast 75 last night after the mould got up to temp and rejected only 5.

[Bodydoc447]

PM sent. Thanks.
Doc

[Wayne Smith]

I've always ladel poured, and my Lyman ladel will just fill the MAV 200 grain Lee six cavity on one pour. When I got the 311440 I got one of those bottom pour ladels, I forget the name. It's the smallest at one pound, and that's a lot of lead. I can't imgine what I'd ever need that much for, but I've got it. Quite a work-out when I use it, too.

[wills]

I've always ladel poured, and my Lyman ladel will just fill the MAV 200 grain Lee six cavity on one pour. When I got the 311440 I got one of those bottom pour ladels, I forget the name. It's the smallest at one pound, and that's a lot of lead. I can't imgine what I'd ever need that much for, but I've got it. Quite a work-out when I use it, too.

Rowell bottom pour ladle possibly. They make them up to 90 pounds capacity. You can get them from the antimony man or from

http://www.advancecarmover.com/

Might be helpful for smelting,

[snowwolfe]

After remembering all the times my old bottom pourer leaked melted lead all over my table when I would make sinkers it confirmed my decision to order a pot. With the help of the forum members here I ordered the Waage. Current price was $145 for the pot, $16 for shipping. But they charged me $35 to ship because I live in Alaska.

[BruceB]

Been watching the thread since its beginning, with a lot of bemusement as it goes along.

I commenced casting with a cast-iron frying pan on the kitchen stove, using a "reformed" tablespoon held in vise-grips to fill a single-cavity 452374 RN mould.

Within a very short time, like a few months, I obtained a SAECO bottom-pour furnace...and to this day, which is thirty-nine years later, I have NEVER done another casting run by ladling.

I have NO DIFFICULTY in casting excellent bullets in large quantities, and in very short order as well.

By "excellent", I mean no deformities, no voids, no rounded bases, no shrunken areas, and very consistent weight.

Even more telling, I have taken absolutely, totally-inexperienced people who have never even HELD a mould before, and within the space of ten minutes, had them turning out high percentages of excellent bullets. Naturally, the new fellers muff a few pours now and then as they develop the co-ordination and knowledge required....but they DO make decent bullets within minutes. In fact, I have another newbie scheduled for his first session with a mould sometime in the next few days. Perhaps I'll keep some notes on what happens in his first go-'round.

It's so simple to me that I've long been puzzled by reports that folks "can't make decent bullets" with a bottom-pouring furnace. I see that complaint a lot, so there's obviously a problem for some people, but I am really at sea in trying to figure out where that problem lies. The "simplicity" of my success applies to hollow-points-and-bases, pure lead, wheelweight alloy, linotype, and weight ranges of 50 to 550 grains, through single-, double- and four-cavity moulds, and several different furnaces....in other words, pretty much the full spectrum.

As I say, it's a puzzlement to me, the troubles that folks have in bottom-pouring, but I would absolutely HATE going back to ladle-casting.

[StarMetal]

My opinion is the lead doesn't know how it gets inside the mould. I use to ladle pour when I was young and had no money. Then I went to a RCBS furnace....I would never ever ever go back.

Joe

[Dutch4122]

I've tried both and can honestly say that a bottom pour pot is much easier to use and is definately faster for me. My Magma pot has a double pour spout and is a pleasure to use. No drips, no spout freeze ups, and the crud at the top of the melt that I miss somethimes when skimming after fluxing doesn't seem to make it into my boolits.

[snowwolfe]

I dont doubt a bottom pourer works great. I cast bullets when I was a child using a bottom pourer and never had any problems either. I was under the supervision of a friendly neighbor who took an interest in my like of the outdoors. I based my current decision on the fact no one claims to be able to pour better than they can ladle and the pot I purchased was cheaper than the RCBS bottom pourer I researched. I hate when my old bottom pourer leaks! Besides, I will be lucky if I have to make more than 100 bullets at a time.

[PDshooter]

Bottom pour!.........Hands down! :)

[quigleysharps4570]

Depends on bullet mold. I've got a Lyman 535gr. Postell that I'd like to see someone cast perfect bullets with a bottom pour and less than 870 degrees temperature. Been there and tried every angle with it. Bottom pour has a place...but not with the big pills. IMO

[Bullshop]

Depends on bullet mold. I've got a Lyman 535gr. Postell that I'd like to see someone cast perfect bullets with a bottom pour and less than 870 degrees temperature. Been there and tried every angle with it. Bottom pour has a place...but not with the big pills. IMO
quigleysharps
I have the same mold and cast from a bottom pour. I cast some that tied for second at the 03 Quigley match in Forsyth Mt. from same mold. Have sold many from same mold cast in straight WW at about 625F with not one dissatisfied customer. I believed at one time when I had far less experiance than I have now that a match quality boolit could only come from a ladle,but I was wrong!
If you mean what you said about liking to see someone do it with your mold I am quite shure I could show you.
BIC/BS

[quigleysharps4570]

Used a bottom pour for several years and it did fine with the smaller ones...my 500gr. roundnose and down. But just got too many rejects with the Postell. Went back to ladle pouring. Even then...with this mold I couldn't get them to my liking at lower temps. Cranked her up to 870 and don't have a problem. If there's an old thread on here about your technique Bullshop I'd be interested in reading it.

[Bass Ackward]

I agree that the longer the bullet in relationship to the caliber, the more valuable the weight in the laddle is to achieving good fill. It's not only the weight, but the heat or time that it stays molten. This is complicated by the fact that venting needs to be superior. A lot of the culprit is taking the time to learn how to operate a mould of this type from either method and taking time to clean and keep it venting properly. Well the truth is a competitor is out shooting instead of molding.

And then there is simple human nature. Once we invest the time, "our" method, which ever one that may be, becomes the gold standard. Change is not a great comodity around this board either for some reason. :grin:

But all the logic in the world don't change facts. :grin: And we all know that there are few facts associated with shooting.

[Wayne Smith]

Yes, Wills, it's the Rowell, the 1 lb. I got it from advancecarmover.com and am happy with it. I know it's not the same challenge, but I have Boy Scouts casting .490 RB's from a camp stove on the first try, and they love it. This is the night before they shoot them, and each wants to keep his own balls to shoot.

[chunkum]

I'm new to the forum and have hesitated to put my 2 cents worth among all of the great information here. I have been casting bullets a good while, and for a good deal of that time managed to do pretty fair without too much technical information. I started back in the mid 50's casting off my momma's gas stove in a tin can with a coathanger handle attached to it and a pouring spout bent into the front of it. (a very understanding and kind lady she was too). I used a couple of Lyman moulds for .38 spec and .45 ACP on loan from an old bullseye shooter who got me started. Then there was a long dry spell and when I got my little Lyman cast iron pot and a small ladle, I was in hi tech hog heaven with a Coleman single burner camping stove. This was in the early '70s. A Lyman bottom pour followed in a few years and the old cast iron pot is mostly empty these days, though I do a few things in it, mostly when I just want a few bullets for a trial of some sort and don't want to set all my stuff up (I cast outside these days). I can honestly say that I have learned more in the last few years about alloys and casting than in all the years before (all 45 is it? incredible!). I've acquired a Lee 110 20 # bottom pour and learned more about alloys than I knew there was to know. (I'm sure there's a lot more.) But to the theme of this thread, I like my bottom pour for convenience and get good results with it. I can remember soaking my new moulds in carbon tet over night or some such awful toxic compound to condition them and it worked ok but there are two things that have made casting more efficient for me that might be worth mentioning: 1) non-chorinated brake cleaner spray for cleaning moulds and a hot plate for pre heating moulds and keeping them hot if I take a break. I get good bullets almost right away (second to third casting most of the time) from the bottom pour pots. Anyway, this is my experience and wanted to share it and just say a big "thank you" to all the casters whose input here has been invaluable in constantly improving my prowess and results.
Best Regards,
chunkum

[sundog]

Well, Chunkum, your experience is not a whole lot different than everyone else here, including the 'old timers' from the old shooters.com. We just electirifcatated on the internet sooner. Many, if not most of us, started with some, how shall we say it, outhouse ways, but we got'em casted and shot'em somehow, without any major injuries or malfunctions. I started shooting in the middle 50's and casting somewhere around 1971-72. Like you, I learned more in the short time after the internet than all the years before, regardless of all the printed material I consumed. This is one swell bunch of fellers here.

btw, welcome! And don't be afraid to pop in. We prolly have something to learn from you, too. sundog

[quigleysharps4570]

Change is not a great comodity around this board either for some reason. :grin:


:D :D :D Guess we're all guilty of that from time to time...I'm the worlds worst.

Welcome Chunkum...new here myself.

[John Boy]

I've got a Lyman 535gr. Postell that I'd like to see someone cast perfect bullets with a bottom pour and less than 870 degrees temperature.
Quigley, call it whatever ... But:
* I've got 300 (1:30's) in the styrofoam trays now that are 334.4 to 335.2
* Every bullet is perfect when the mold gets up to temp and the bases run between 459-461
* I cast them at 820 with a Lee 10#'er. My preference though is a cast iron pot and a Rowell dipper
* I follow the 8 Phase Cycle religiously ...
http://www.longrangebpcr.com/8Phases.htm
http://www.longrangebpcr.com/Part2.htm

Regards
John

[quigleysharps4570]

Guys I'll admit I was wrong in saying that. My apologies. Should've worded it differently.

[Blackwater]

Not to worry, Quig ol' pal. The only REALLY important thing is to just get 'em cast up. On THAT we'll ALL agree, I'm sure.

And BTW, the main reason I posted this is that, as I said, after that big (and very fine) Saeco pot emptied itself once, I've been leery of bottom pours, and am finally reconsidering. The responses here haven't really helped, in all honesty, which makes me conclude that going bottom pour, even if only for SOME moulds, is mostly just a matter of getting one and getting after it. Deer season and an upper bronchial infection has me pinned down until the season's closed, but .... I think I forsee a bottom pour in my near future, if only for my courage's sake?

I DO see some real advantages in the bottom pour, like floating cat litter on top to keep the air from the surface, for instance (maybe?). I have a notion that maybe (???) at least SOME of the discrepancies in different folks' results MAY have something to do with the size of the stream from the bottom pours .... maybe???? Like that robber in the movie "Dirty Harry," I "just gots' ta' know." Hoped y'all would screw my courage up a notch or two, and you certainly haven't hurt it any, but like I said, I think it's all going to boil down to just taking a clue from Nice and just doing it.

Ain't castin' FUN! [smilie=p:

[snowwolfe]

Interesting reads.......My experience with ladling is zippo. And since I have only cast sinkers from a bottom pour I am a novice with that issue also. But no where in the treads do I read that bottom pourers offer better bullets. Seems to be bottom pourers are faster and cast great bullets. But no one ever said ladling made bad bullets.

[Bullshop]

Interesting reads.......My experience with ladling is zippo. And since I have only cast sinkers from a bottom pour I am a novice with that issue also. But no where in the treads do I read that bottom pourers offer better bullets. Seems to be bottom pourers are faster and cast great bullets. But no one ever said ladling made bad bullets.
snowwolfe
Here ya go, both methods can make equal quality boolits, but the bottom poure may take a bit longer to learn/understand. There are a lot of misconseptions that I plan to address when I have time in a new thread. There are points to discuss we can all benifitt from.
Now if the bottom pour can match the quality and quadroople the rate why ladle poure.
BIC/BS