Real Gel Tests: 38 Special and 357 Carbine

[curioushooter]

Gel calibrated 3.5" with 17 caliber BB at 590 FPS--within spec.
4 layers of denim.

This is the first promising 38 Special load I've found that will work in a subnose revolver. It isn't running even at +p pressures probably being just 5 grains of Unique pushing a 159 grain MP-molds 359 Hammer bullet with the large hollowpoint cast of 30:1 pb-sn.

Even at 800 FPS this expanded impressively to over 0.6" and but penetrated to only 9" with 99% retained weight. Add another 50 FPS (when fired from my Model 19) it penetrated an inch less but expanded to nearly three quarters inch!

The relationship between velocity and depth is becoming clearer, and it seems that 38 Special just doesn't have the gas needed to get to the 12" depth IF you want impressive expansion. I am going to try the same load with the soft 30:1 allow and the small HP cavity (bullet weight 162-163) and see if it will reduce the expansion and make a foot of penetration.

The other test was of the NOE 360-182-WFNGC bullet cast of 91-6-3 (pb-sn-sb) launched by 16 grains of 300 MP. Observations were that this is a mild shooting load with no pressure signs, it cycles perfectly, and gets 1700 FPS out of my Marlin 1894C. Performance was quite good with over .6" expansion and a solid 19" of penetration with 99% retained weight and very impressive smack--the initial "stretch" cavity. It blew the gel off the table and cracked the clay brick it was sitting on! Though it was not as shocking as the 158 grain Hornady XTPFP launched at 1900 FPS!
250694

[35remington]

In the FWIW department, the top end of the standard pressure range for a 38 Special and 158 grain bullet is 4.7 grains Unique. Max Plus P is 5.3 grains Unique. The load is therefore likely higher than standard pressure but not to the top of the Plus P range.

[curioushooter]

Lyman manual puts the 358156 (has check design near same weight and oal) at 5.1 grains unique as max for 38spl, 5.4 for +p. That's the best data I have.

[curioushooter]

91-6-3 is the hardest allot that isn't overly brittle. If you add more antimony I observed fracturing of the mushroom and loss of weight. Adding more tin hardens it little and adds expense. Thin tin in this alloy already costs more than the lead. If you don't mind loss of weight not an issue, but I eat this stuff. I am a semi-pro game processor and there is a reason why I prefer 99% weight retention.

[curioushooter]

That NOE 360-182-WFNGC at 1,700 fps is a well-balanced load that is most certainly worthy of any white-tailed deer that it is aimed at.

Well, inside 100 yards at least. I've not yet established the lower velocity threshold at which the bullet performs like an icepick. I know that at 1200 fps it's an icepick with the 358 hammer bullet flat point. I am going to try some loads that will put me at 1300-1500 and see where the performance falls apart.

[35remington]

More recent data is as I have described, including recent Lyman.

[curioushooter]

More recent data is as I have described, including recent Lyman.

That info is straight from Lyman's 4 cast bullet manual: 358156 to 5.4 grains +p and 5.1 grains for 38SPL. I used 5.0 grains as a max because the Mihec Hammer bullet weighs slightly more (158 grains instead of 155 and my alloy is softer). There is no 5th edition. Where are you getting your data? It is very close.

[curioushooter]

I've not yet established the lower velocity threshold at which the bullet performs like an icepick. I know that at 1200 fps it's an icepick with the 358 hammer bullet flat point. I am going to try some loads that will put me at 1300-1500 and see where the performance falls apart.

So I've found that limit. It is ~1400 FPS, which is what the NOE 182-WFN should be traveling at 100 yards if the MV is 1700 FPS.
At 1400 FPS the load expanded to .475" and penetrated to 24" which is certainly enough. The bullet at 1300 FPS was not recovered...it passed through 28" of gel and showed no evidence of expansion. Bullets lanched at 1500 FPS were not recovered either. As you can see at 1400 the bullet had a uneven expansion profile. I recovered that bullet on the very edge of the gel. The two I shot at 1500 both passed out of the gel to the sides at about 19" depth. I expect that they expanded a little more but where consequently more destabilized. In any case it has been established that with the parameters I have set that 357 Magnum carbine loads with cast bullets have a maximum effective range of 100 yards due to terminal performance, rather than external ballistic performance (the load shoots pretty flat out to 150 yards--5" of drop).

Softening of the alloy will probably lower velocity needed to achieve expansion, however, softer alloys foul barrels and accuracy can deteriorate.

250734

[curioushooter]

Congratulations on your successful harvest of the gel, shooting the Gel was hunting it? Being this part of this great forum is on Hunting with Cast.

Ken

Not sure if this is supposed to be a sarcastic jab because of your inchoherence, but I will assume the worst.

Gel is the only way to gather consistent data regarding terminal ballistics and therefore it is the only way that one can rationally compare performance or draw conclusions. This data is of the upmost utility to hunters, so that is why it is posted in this subforum. A thousand kill shot pictures will not yield data as useful. I process deer for pay during the season, so I get to see plenty of wounds (from arrows, from all manner of firearms, and from muzzleoaders, too). Yet I've felt it necessary to scientifically and rigorously test this on gel.

Why? Because so many variables effect the matter than a bullet recovered from an actual kill is nearly useless. The only kind of data like this that could be of use is some data Elmer Keith reported from shooting rabbits in front of a snowbank. The bullets passed through the rabbits (so a rough penetration depth can be determined) and the soft snow cushioned the bullet so the shape of it was probably similar to what it was while in the rabbit. He was a smart man, and I am surprised he didn't think of using hydrated animal protein--gelatin--to test his loads. Unfortunately he used pine boards and other poor analogs of flesh.

Gel allows you to accurately measure depth and it leaves the bullet in an unaltered state. It is also consistent in density from shot to shot and matters like angle and shot placement are eliminated as variables. The ratio of gel to water can be precisely adjusted to achieve correct density of the target animal. Putting a chrono in front of it gives an accurate velocity reading. I suppose one could hunt with one of those muzzle mounted chronos and get a velocity that way. But none of the other stuff is practical.

[bmortell]

you say multiple times not recovered, just take a carboard box bigger than the blocks, put some old towels or clothes in it and set it behind the blocks. as long as it slows down a decent bit it catches everything.

also im gonna try some 44mag soft points using 20-1 for the nose, since near pure was too soft. ill share if I get useful findings

[35remington]

Lyman and Alliant. Regular rifle and pistol combined manuals. FWIW. Since we are not using their exact bullet in your testing to some extent it is all guesswork. What would be helpful to know is bullet seating depth in the case compared to the various referenced bullets of similar weight in the manuals as this has notable effect on the actual pressures and velocity developed.

[curioushooter]

Lyman and Alliant. Regular rifle and pistol combined manuals. FWIW. Since we are not using their exact bullet in your testing to some extent it is all guesswork. What would be helpful to know is bullet seating depth in the case compared to the various referenced bullets of similar weight in the manuals as this has notable effect on the actual pressures and velocity developed.

You took your data from Alliant...they used a swaged non-gas checked bullet, and Alliant doesn't list pressures, so it may very well be below the max as it often is for their lead bullets. In my observation this alters the matter a great deal. Softer bullets show pressure signs before harder ones and before jacketed ones. None of this is observable in 38 however. It is in 357 mag and max. OAL I've found to have little effect in a case like 38 Special as it is so oversized to begin with, but the lyman data did use a bullet seated to a longer OAL so that is why I backed it off a little. Something like 9mm is a different story. I am confident that 5.0 grains of Unique pushing a gas checked 158 grain lead-alloy projectile is safe in any modern 38 special firearm (which are all 38 +p rated to my knowledge) in good condition, and that is what matters, isn't it?

[curioushooter]

you say multiple times not recovered, just take a carboard box bigger than the blocks, put some old towels or clothes in it and set it behind the blocks. as long as it slows down a decent bit it catches everything.

also im gonna try some 44mag soft points using 20-1 for the nose, since near pure was too soft. ill share if I get useful findings

Tried this. Too much stuff going on and for the times it happens it just isn't worth it. Half the time it goes through the towels anyway. And the bullet can be deformed, so the data is questionable. Also, I have 28" of block. Something that penetrates more than that penetrates too much for deer IMO.

That idea with 44 mag sounds like it is worth trying if you push it hard enough. The problem is that at REAL WORLD handgun velocities, which for 44 Mag are usually under 1400 FPS, it can be difficult to get expansion. Soft alloys foul barrels and get bad accuracy in such powerful loadings. I would suggest a gas check design with 32:1 and a soft lube with a boolit like Lymans 429215 if you are going to try this. I don't know how long the barrel is but you might be able to get this above 1400 FPS with something like 296/110.
I predict that the optimal performance for 44 in a normal sized revolver (like a 4-6" barrel) and loaded to modern spec (under 35kPSI) would be achieved with a 210-220 grain medium sized cast hollow point (like a hollowpointed RCBS 430-225-SWC) in 16:1 or something with a tad of antimony (especially if not gas checked) pushed by 12-13 grains of Unique or 19-21 grains of 2400.
In a Marlin I was able to get 265 grainers going to 1650 FPS with a heaping helping of 296. This should expand if the alloy was soft enough. I was paper jacketing in those days so I could use quite soft alloys provided the ogive was well supported.
I am going to test the lower limits of expansion next. I am going to try and find how low velocity can with the softest alloys possible and non-hollowpoints expand. I do know that at 1300 FPS and lower my 91-6-3 alloy bullets are always an icepick and overpenetrate.

[curioushooter]

Is there a manual bringing all those predictive models togther in one place? Seems like it would save time. I plan on branching out into more cartridges.

[ACC]

This makes me believe that a cast bullet can be used for self defense. May be I missed it but what bullet metal mix were you using. I have yet to find a pistol cast bullet that will expand. I have always used pure wheel weights.

I need expansion or its no better than an FMJ.

ACC

[bmortell]

I have yet to find a pistol cast bullet that will expand.

you should be able too with almost any cartridge. at 357 or 44mag speeds any flatpoint with around aircooled wheelweight hardness should expand. but generally tin is good and antimony less good for expansion. i don't have any roundnose but i think its harder to expand.

say were talking ~10 hardenss instead of just ww to get that hardness 2% antimony 2% tin would be more malleable even though the hardness is similar. or just lead with 5% tin would work good also

or say its to slow for that hardness to expand you could always start at pure lead and just keep adding 1% tin until leading and groups are good. and then stop adding tin before expansion stops and you got your right alloy. gas checks and or powder coating, correct fit ect. help the leading and groups part allowing softer lead.

if that still fails a pure lead hollow point should expand in anything that its possible

[res45]

This makes me believe that a cast bullet can be used for self defense. May be I missed it but what bullet metal mix were you using. I have yet to find a pistol cast bullet that will expand. I have always used pure wheel weights.

I need expansion or its no better than an FMJ.

ACC

I use 50/50 alloy half pure lead and half wheel weights with a bit of tin. I get excellent expansion with 38 and 45 Cal. cast HP bullets.

NOE clone of the Lyman 358145 HP fired from a S & W Airweight 38 Special cast with the above alloy with the gas check left off. Bullet was recovered from wet newspaper media at 7 yds. MV around 850 fps.
https://i.imgur.com/D4KSNXD.jpg

NOE TL452-234-RF in 45 ACP cast from the above alloy with HP pins installed, recovered from soft dirt bank at 30 yds. MV 1050 fps. from 45 ACP carbine.
https://i.imgur.com/eFe8KbD.jpg?1

[curioushooter]

357 or 44mag speeds any flatpoint with around aircooled wheelweight hardness should expand. but generally tin is good and antimony less good for expansion. i don't have any roundnose but i think its harder to expand.

Are you talking 357/44 handgun velocities or rifle velocities?
If you are talking handgun then you are wrong. Alloys hard enough to prevent leading at these velocities with solid cast boolits do not expand reliably or at all below 1200 FPS. At 1400 FPS I've observed modest expansion with WFN designs. At 1600 (rifle velocities) then solids expand reliably. The problem is that in rifles which are used at ranges where velocities decrease considerably many cast boolits launched at 1600 FPS will be under the expansion threshold by the time they arrive. My tests of 358 round nosed (SAECO 390) vs. 358 SWCs (Lee 358-158-SWCGC) of the same weight showed virtually no performance difference at real world 357 Mag handgun velocities (~1250 FPS). They are both .358" icepicks. The flat nose did seem to make a more impressive "temporary cavity" in the first few inches, but both passed through over 2 feet of gel and weren't recovered.

Hollowpoints are another story. They expand surprisingly well at very low velocites. 32:1 158 CHPs 38s out of my 442 run 800 fps and expand nicely. The problem is that when you crank them up they break apart. Past 1400 many will break up even with the hardest alloys that don't fracture (91-6-3). So, it's HPs for handguns and solids for rifles, basically.

We newsprint and other substitutes for real hydrated animal protein of equivalent projectile resistance to muscle tissue (calibrated gelatin) are a waste of time IMO, yielding data that is at BEST questionable. Unless you are shooting deer made of wet newsprint that is. It has been suggested water is a good substitute. I say it ain't as good as gel for a number of reasons (the primary being it is a LIQUID). Go gel or go home.


This makes me believe that a cast bullet can be used for self defense. May be I missed it but what bullet metal mix were you using. I have yet to find a pistol cast bullet that will expand. I have always used pure wheel weights.

ACC here are three CB loads that would would for self defense and have been tested in calibrated FBI spec gelatin + 4 layers of denim.

38 SPL+P: 5 grains of Unique pushing the MiHec 359 Hammer bullet with large hollopoint cavity cast from 32:1 pb-sn with carnuba blue and hornady gas check. Goes 800 FPS from my S&W 442, .625" expansion 9" penetration. Notice how just 50FPS velcocity increase from my Model 19 resulted in very large expansion and an inch less penetration.
251537

357 Mag (under 35kPSI) 13.5 grains of 2400 pushing MiHec 359 Hammer bullet with small hollow point cavity cast of 91-6-3 pb-sn-sb with carnuba blue ad hornady gas check. Goes 1200, 1250 from my model 19 4" and 686 5" respectively. .635" expansion, 16" penetration.
251538

357 Medium (probably around 25kPSI, just past 38+) 6 grains of Unique pushing the MiHec 359 Hammer bullet with large hollowpoint cavity cast from 91-6-3 with carnuba blue and hornady gas check. Goes 1100 FPS from my 4" model 19. Performance is nearly equivalent to the more powerful load above. Less recoil and probably a better load for a light revolvers.

[MT Gianni]

Thanks for the test. I shot a lot of standard pressure loads back in the day per Lyman manual 45 with 358477 and 5.4 gr Unique. I still own those guns and they are in good shape.

[dverna]

Bullet type, velocity and alloy can turn a bullet that is good to one that is not too good. The question I have, is this change in performance more severe with cast or jacketed pistol bullets? Do the typical defensive JHP's like XTP's, Gold Dots, etc offer a wider range of "effective' velocities than cast bullets?

Failing actual test data, opinions are welcomed.

[curioushooter]

Do the typical defensive JHP's like XTP's, Gold Dots, etc offer a wider range of "effective' velocities than cast bullets?

Basically yes. That is the principle advantage to a JHP. The copper jacket is tough and arrests expansion at a certain point which allows the bullet to carry deeper than it would if allowed expand freely. This is why for example the 158 grain XTPHP at 357 mag handgun velocities (like ~1250 FPS) penetrates ~20" but expands more modestly to about .550-.6. The MiHec Hammer 359 CHP with the small HP pin casts up around 162 grains checked and lubed. It expands to ~.65 and goes about 16" deep at 1200 FPS. The same bullet going 1600 FPS (same load of 13.5 grains of 2400) from a rifle shears off the HP walls and breaks up leaving a core and fragments at about 8-10" deep (BAD PERFORMANCE for deer) while the XTP holds up better. But even the XTPHP blows up at 1900 FPS. At that velocity you want to use the XTPFP (flat point) or cast solid.

This also means that potentially a CHP can outperform the JHP since it can expand to its greatest potential and generally has 99% weight retention as it is monolithic, so you end up with potentially the largest and cleanest wound channel. There are many things at play here, and honestly, I would test before I would trust a cast hollowpoint. I can tell you strait up that hollowpoints (cast or jacketed) are going to outperform soilds (cast or jacketed) at handgun velocities. It really needs to be rippin to get a reasonably hard alloy to expand in a solid. I'd imagine that a soft cast (like 32:1) at full power 357 could expand...but accuracy and leading would be bad.

With handguns which are used a short ranges where normally the projectile is going to be going close to what the MV is then CHPs work great. That narrower window of velocity isn't much of a problem.

Rifles needs to work at a greater velocity range since they work at a wider range of distances from target. The spread between MV and impact velocity can be significant and it is important that the projectile work properly at both.

With bottleneck rifle cartridges like 30-30/ 35 Rem the velocity and BC can be sufficient that the solid boolit will work well at both the muzzle (2000 FPS or so) and at 150 yards (1600 FPS or so).

The straight wall cartridge in some ways requires more careful consideration of the boolit. With 357 Mag for example I use the 180 grain XTP in any place I expect there a possibility of a long shot (150 yards) because I know it will hold together at 1700 FPS and still expand at 1100 FPS. If I am hunting a place where a long shot is unlikely, then I use the solid cast boolit (which actually outperforms the XTP in terms of weight retention, expansion, and depth). It expands beautifully a 1800 FPS (muzzle) and well enough at 1500 (75-100 yards).

As far as "defensive" matters go there are other considerations to be made which I think favor the use of JHPs, particularly if the handgun is a bottom feeder.

[Cary Gunn]

Curioushooter,

I'm hoping you continue to post your experiences in shooting gel with cast bullets.

Unlike the single grumpy forum member who gave you grief for taking up space on a hunting subforum with "unrelated" info on gel penetration testing, I find your offerings extremely useful and interesting.

Cast-bullet hunters who aren't interested in the effect of their slugs on impact with game have no business in the hunting fields. And, as you so lucidly point out, there's no better way to compare consistent cast-bullet effectiveness than shooting the big hunks of gelatin. It's what I'd be doing myself if I wasn't so old, lazy and cheap.

So, continue to post your results here, and tune-out the very few naysayers.

Thanks again.

Happy trails,

-- Cary Gunn --

[dverna]

Basically yes. That is the principle advantage to a JHP. The copper jacket is tough and arrests expansion at a certain point which allows the bullet to carry deeper than it would if allowed expand freely. This is why for example the 158 grain XTPHP at 357 mag handgun velocities (like ~1250 FPS) penetrates ~20" but expands more modestly to about .550-.6. The MiHec Hammer 359 CHP with the small HP pin casts up around 162 grains checked and lubed. It expands to ~.65 and goes about 16" deep at 1200 FPS. The same bullet going 1600 FPS (same load of 13.5 grains of 2400) from a rifle shears off the HP walls and breaks up leaving a core and fragments at about 8-10" deep (BAD PERFORMANCE for deer) while the XTP holds up better. But even the XTPHP blows up at 1900 FPS. At that velocity you want to use the XTPFP (flat point) or cast solid.

This also means that potentially a CHP can outperform the JHP since it can expand to its greatest potential and generally has 99% weight retention as it is monolithic, so you end up with potentially the largest and cleanest wound channel. There are many things at play here, and honestly, I would test before I would trust a cast hollowpoint. I can tell you strait up that hollowpoints (cast or jacketed) are going to outperform soilds (cast or jacketed) at handgun velocities. It really needs to be rippin to get a reasonably hard alloy to expand in a solid. I'd imagine that a soft cast (like 32:1) at full power 357 could expand...but accuracy and leading would be bad.

With handguns which are used a short ranges where normally the projectile is going to be going close to what the MV is then CHPs work great. That narrower window of velocity isn't much of a problem.

Rifles needs to work at a greater velocity range since they work at a wider range of distances from target. The spread between MV and impact velocity can be significant and it is important that the projectile work properly at both.

With bottleneck rifle cartridges like 30-30/ 35 Rem the velocity and BC can be sufficient that the solid boolit will work well at both the muzzle (2000 FPS or so) and at 150 yards (1600 FPS or so).

The straight wall cartridge in some ways requires more careful consideration of the boolit. With 357 Mag for example I use the 180 grain XTP in any place I expect there a possibility of a long shot (150 yards) because I know it will hold together at 1700 FPS and still expand at 1100 FPS. If I am hunting a place where a long shot is unlikely, then I use the solid cast boolit (which actually outperforms the XTP in terms of weight retention, expansion, and depth). It expands beautifully a 1800 FPS (muzzle) and well enough at 1500 (75-100 yards).

As far as "defensive" matters go there are other considerations to be made which I think favor the use of JHPs, particularly if the handgun is a bottom feeder.

Appreciate your response. I will continue to use JHP for defensive use in my 9mm’s and .38/.357’s. The .38/.357 are loaded to +P level as my fiancé cannot handle.357 loads.

There is no reason for me to hunt deer with pistols or pistol caliber carbines. I still learned from your testing and enjoyed your posts.

[curioushooter]

Some states require the use of pistol caliber ammo in rifle (or shotguns)...Indiana now allows rifles on private land (at least for a while).

[ACC]

Curioushooter,

I'm hoping you continue to post your experiences in shooting gel with cast bullets.

Unlike the single grumpy forum member who gave you grief for taking up space on a hunting subforum with "unrelated" info on gel penetration testing, I find your offerings extremely useful and interesting.

Cast-bullet hunters who aren't interested in the effect of their slugs on impact with game have no business in the hunting fields. And, as you so lucidly point out, there's no better way to compare consistent cast-bullet effectiveness than shooting the big hunks of gelatin. It's what I'd be doing myself if I wasn't so old, lazy and cheap.

So, continue to post your results here, and tune-out the very few naysayers.

Thanks again.



Happy trails,

-- Cary Gunn --

I'm with you. A hunter needs to know what his gun will do. How can you know with out testing it? He must test the ammo as well. I have hunted with cast bullets most all my life and have come to know which alloy to use for what game. But then I am an old man.

ACC

[Phlier]

Curioushooter,

I'm hoping you continue to post your experiences in shooting gel with cast bullets.

Unlike the single grumpy forum member who gave you grief for taking up space on a hunting subforum with "unrelated" info on gel penetration testing, I find your offerings extremely useful and interesting.

Cast-bullet hunters who aren't interested in the effect of their slugs on impact with game have no business in the hunting fields. And, as you so lucidly point out, there's no better way to compare consistent cast-bullet effectiveness than shooting the big hunks of gelatin. It's what I'd be doing myself if I wasn't so old, lazy and cheap.

So, continue to post your results here, and tune-out the very few naysayers.

Thanks again.

Happy trails,

-- Cary Gunn --
Please tune out the naysayers... I'm sure there are a lot of guys that are watching and learning from this thread, but don't post because they have nothing to add... they just read and learn.

You're doing the testing a lot of us would *like* to do, but lack either the time or the resources... or both.

Thanks for sharing your results.

[onelight]

Please tune out the naysayers... I'm sure there are a lot of guys that are watching and learning from this thread, but don't post because they have nothing to add... they just read and learn.

You're doing the testing a lot of us would *like* to do, but lack either the time or the resources... or both.

Thanks for sharing your results.

you describe me , i don't cast HP because i don't need or want to go to that much trouble....but i might some day and it is interesting to see how the all the details are worked out to get the results.
Phlier done good.:drinks:

[dverna]

I'm with you. A hunter needs to know what his gun will do. How can you know with out testing it? He must test the ammo as well. I have hunted with cast bullets most all my life and have come to know which alloy to use for what game. But then I am an old man.

ACC

Wise words and worth heeding.

[USSR]

...i don't cast HP because i don't need or want to go to that much trouble....

No trouble really, as long as you are using a Cramer type mould. It's pretty much all I cast anymore. The thing with hollowpoints as opposed to solids is, the alloy is critical. You should do just the opposite of what the commercial casters and swaged bullet manufacturers do. While they keep the tin content down and rely on antimony (hey, it's a lot cheaper), if you want your handgun hollowpoints to function as intended then you will use a lot of tin and little antimony. In the below pic, my bullets cast to be used in my version of the FBI load and shot out of my snubbie are in the middle and on the right. Note how the penta point retained all it's petals. With a high antimony and low tin alloy, one or more of them would likely break off.

Don

252213

[onelight]

No trouble really, as long as you are using a Cramer type mould. It's pretty much all I cast anymore. The thing with hollowpoints as opposed to solids is, the alloy is critical. You should do just the opposite of what the commercial casters and swaged bullet manufacturers do. While they keep the tin content down and rely on antimony (hey, it's a lot cheaper), if you want your handgun hollowpoints to function as intended then you will use a lot of tin and little antimony. In the below pic, my bullets cast to be used in my version of the FBI load and shot out of my snubbie are in the middle and on the right. Note how the penta point retained all it's petals. With a high antimony and low tin alloy, one or more of them would likely break off.

Don

252213

very nice expansion

[USSR]

very nice expansion

Thanks.

Don

[Rescue1008]

Thank you so much for posting this! As a new caster this information is very beneficial to myself. I am diving into the world of .357 magnum casting and loading for my 20" carbine specifically for hunting. I have a mold on order from MP that I hope and believe is going to work. Have you considered adding another type of variable such as PC or Hi-tek to possibly act a little bit like a copper jacket? I would think you could get the velocity up on the .357 so terminal ballistics would be more favorable at the 100 yard mark. The negative to this is the possibility of shearing that you do not want at the closer velocities. I am beginning to mess with some pure lead and tin ratios to see just where the threshold is of soft enough to expand at say 100-150 yards but malleable enough to hold together at closer impact ranges.

[Rescue1008]

No trouble really, as long as you are using a Cramer type mould. It's pretty much all I cast anymore. The thing with hollowpoints as opposed to solids is, the alloy is critical. You should do just the opposite of what the commercial casters and swaged bullet manufacturers do. While they keep the tin content down and rely on antimony (hey, it's a lot cheaper), if you want your handgun hollowpoints to function as intended then you will use a lot of tin and little antimony. In the below pic, my bullets cast to be used in my version of the FBI load and shot out of my snubbie are in the middle and on the right. Note how the penta point retained all it's petals. With a high antimony and low tin alloy, one or more of them would likely break off.

Don

252213

That is beautiful expansion! The penta points are what really interest me in all things casting. Specifically in my .309 mold that is cast for subsonic .300 BLK velocity. If I can find an alloy content that reliably allows expansion down to some slow velocity I will be in business.

[USSR]

That is beautiful expansion! The penta points are what really interest me in all things casting. Specifically in my .309 mold that is cast for subsonic .300 BLK velocity. If I can find an alloy content that reliably allows expansion down to some slow velocity I will be in business.

My suggestion would be use only 0.5 - 1.0% antimony with 2.5 - 3.0% tin.

Don

[Gamsek]

That is beautiful expansion! The penta points are what really interest me in all things casting. Specifically in my .309 mold that is cast for subsonic .300 BLK velocity. If I can find an alloy content that reliably allows expansion down to some slow velocity I will be in business.

The only penta .309” mould I know is 314-140 Sledgehammer, all other’s flat points are to small for penta.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191216/ab0e278a951f37c50b7097e2aaed1278.jpg

I would follow USSR advice, 2-3% of tin with pure, not over 5%
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191216/4b14e6c893bc1aee778e10bfa06e46db.jpg
Those are with 5% of tin. All around 1000-1100 fps. It all depends on alloy, velocity and size and shape of HP cavity how HP will perform.

Those are from my test with 10%tin alloy in 300 BLK and 357. Low speed let say 38 level they open slower, but once you pass some threshold, nose will break off. the blue 311410 that you see is made from pure lead GC but with short HP, green is 10%Sn and deep HP. 130grs and I shoot 2 roebuck with blue.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191216/8c6d12b41bb2d8728404d8dce8dee219.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191216/697fe169f4a9ab4abd4b312941b20102.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191216/53daea86414308ff143883d3b006c360.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191216/0fe87b3e0474b2e5de2e98fc1e799174.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191216/8442e8bfdab19d052480b068ce3cfb69.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191216/6f9298a30dfed80b59980ed02af2e6e4.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191216/0c869e4a9e9832580172ac653daea976.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191216/15bc670d45340d59b1d2e5f8e2497d60.jpg

[dg31872]

Great pictures, Gamsek. It really shows the expansion possibilities.

[Rescue1008]

The only penta .309” mould I know is 314-140 Sledgehammer, all other’s flat points are to small for penta.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191216/ab0e278a951f37c50b7097e2aaed1278.jpg

I would follow USSR advice, 2-3% of tin with pure, not over 5%
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191216/4b14e6c893bc1aee778e10bfa06e46db.jpg
Those are with 5% of tin. All around 1000-1100 fps. It all depends on alloy, velocity and size and shape of HP cavity how HP will perform.

Those are from my test with 10%tin alloy in 300 BLK and 357. Low speed let say 38 level they open slower, but once you pass some threshold, nose will break off. the blue 311410 that you see is made from pure lead GC but with short HP, green is 10%Sn and deep HP. 130grs and I shoot 2 roebuck with blue.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191216/8c6d12b41bb2d8728404d8dce8dee219.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191216/697fe169f4a9ab4abd4b312941b20102.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191216/53daea86414308ff143883d3b006c360.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191216/0fe87b3e0474b2e5de2e98fc1e799174.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191216/8442e8bfdab19d052480b068ce3cfb69.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191216/6f9298a30dfed80b59980ed02af2e6e4.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191216/0c869e4a9e9832580172ac653daea976.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191216/15bc670d45340d59b1d2e5f8e2497d60.jpg

That is what I love to see! 300 blk and .357 are the two rounds I'm focusing on right now. I have thought about a 30:1 possibly 40:1 alloy to get reliable expansion without the petals shearing. I have a new mold coming that should be just what I'm looking for in the 300 blk. Also have a 180 grain .357 coming that will be using the penta HP. I think these two molds should be perfect for hunting. If I can just keep the velocity of the .357 up.