Help with 44-40 and RL7. Crazy velocities

[Milano]

Hello I am reloading for my Uberti 73 19" carbine and Uberti 4.75" SA both in 44-40. I am using GT Bullets 220 HP bullets that are sized .429. They are about 0.0015" over my slugged barrels. I loaded 6 of each load. Fired 5 through the rifle and 1 through the pistol. I tried getting velocities with a Lab Radar and it wasn't picking up the bullets for some reason so I went back to using my older ProShot chronograph about 5 feet infront of me. Yesterday I shot my loads and got scared! Could you all look at my data and tell me not to be scared.

RL7 23.5 WLP -- Rifle -- avg 1,193 f/s ES 107 Pistol -- 524 f/s

RL7 24.0 WLP -- Rifle -- avg 1,632 ES 36 Pistol -- 633 f/s

RL7 24.5 WLP -- Too scared of loosing body parts to try it.

RL7 23.5 Fed LP Magnum -- Rifle avg 1,286 ES 23 Pistol -- 740 f/s

RL7 24.0 Fed LP Magnum -- Rifle avg 2,830 f/s ES 367 Pistol -- 725 f/s

RL7 24.5 Fed LP Magnum -- Way too scared to shoot them after seeing the velocity readings.

Could someone with some experience with RL 7 and 44-40s help me with what's going on? I would think that my chronograph is lying to me but it was picking up all the bullets.

[Ajohns]

Depending on, five feet maybe too close. If it was too close to the barrel you could've been catching unburnt powder going through it. R7 is a pretty slow burning powder for that round (it does work though!) and granules could've been goofing up your readings.

[Outpost75]

^^^^this!^^^^

You can't get enough RL7 into a .44-40 case to get into trouble.

250566

[John Boy]

Milano - your charges are a bit on the high side ... http://reloadammo.com/4440load.htm

[Milano]

Thank you guys. I used to use 8.5 grains of Unique but there was such a disparity between the rifle and pistol. Without having my notes the rifle was around 1,150 and the pistol was at 500 f/s. I am trying to get the pistol velocities up a bit while keeping within normal 44-40 pressures and velocities. Maybe I am chasing ghosts. What do you all use or suggest? Also am I wasting my time with the magnum primers? I had read that with RL 7 they helped, which I think they do after a whopping ten rounds of each. I didn't like unique because the Extreme spreads I attributed to having so little power in the case. Maybe I am mistaken about that though.

[Outpost75]

Here are some .44-40 velocity data fired from two revolvers representing extremes of cylinder-barrel gap dimensions, and an El Tigre carbine.

1986 S&W 544 Texas Wagon Train has 0.006" cyl. gap, 0.4285" cyl. throats and .429" groove diameter

1905 Colt Frontier Six Shooter has 0.012" cyl. gap, .4285" cyl. throats and .427" groove diameter.

1920s Eibar El Tigre slugs .425" groove diameter.

Cast bullets are wheelweight alloy and sized .430" throughout. Bullseye and 452AA powders gave best accuracy in both revolvers and in the rifle, with the most uniform velocities. The ballistic uniformity of #2400 and 4227 which are often recommended, was poor, as was the accuracy. IMHO loading heavier rifle loads which are not useable in the wheelguns defeats the purpose of the rifle-revolver combo.

.44-40 Test Data - Aug. 26 2019

Ammunition_________S&W 544, 5”______Colt SAA 5-1/2”_____El Tigre 22”
Description__________0.006” cyl. gap____0.012” cyl. Gap_____solid barrel

Old Western 1940s____958 fps__________916 fps____________1273 fps
200 JSP_____________36 ES, 13 Sd_____75 ES, 35 Sd________32 ES, 12 Sd
“Bullseye Box” Solid Head case

Rem-UMC_1930s______923 fps_________893 fps____________1252 fps
200 JSP_____________94 ES, 36 Sd_____93 ES, 31 Sd________76 ES, 29 Sd_
“Dog Bone Box” Balloon Head case

Modern W-W_1990____866 fps_________826 fps____________1218 fps
200 JSP_____________73 ES, 30 Sd____45 ES, 15 Sd________76 ES, 29 Sd
Solid Head case

Avg. Factory Load Vel.__916 fps_____878 fps___________1248 fps

#42798 wheelwts_____771 fps________769 fps____________1133 fps
W-W case, WLP______119 ES, 46 Sd___104 ES, 36 Sd_______52 ES, 17 Sd
35 grs. Goex 2Fg, Solid Head case

#42798_____________887 fps________854 fps____________1079 fps
6.5 grs. 452-AA_______94 ES, 39 Sd___75 ES, 28 Sd________68 ES, 24 Sd
W-W case, WLP, Solid Head case

#42798_____________947 fps________887 fps____________1142 fps
6.0 grs. Bullseye______24 ES, 9 Sd_____29 ES, 9 Sd________43 ES, 12 Sd
W-W case, WLP, Solid Head case

#42798_____________951 fps________878 fps____________1178 fps
16.0 #2400__________150 ES, 44 Sd__133 ES, 36 Sd______76 ES, 22Sd
W-W case, WLP, Solid Head case

#42798_____________970 fps________953 fps____________1364 fps
18.5 IMR4227________96 ES, 37 Sd___108 ES, 37 Sd_______89 ES, 26 Sd
Rem-UMC factory primed balloon-head case, REDUCE 1 FULL GRAIN IN MODERN SOLID HEAD BRASS!

[Cast_outlaw]

I use rl7 in my 44-40 for rifle but under a 240gr lead slug at 27gr I topped out at 1625 with no pressure sign (I’m using a model 92 Winchester that is bran new it’s a group 2 strong action safe for hotter smokeless loads) I would replace the batteries in your crony and try again with the lighter ones with the chronograph 10’ from the muzzle (what I was always told that was the test distance for a rifle)

[CamoWhamo]

I checked my records and with a 220gn (Accurate molds 43-220C) bullet i got the following results from my Winchester 92 with 20" barrel.

23.5gn RL7 1235fps
24.5gn RL7 1290fps

23.5gn of RL7 got 1270fps in my Miroku Winchester 73 with 24" barrel.

[Larry Gibson]

I went back to using my older ProShot chronograph about 5 feet infront of me.

I would suspect this is the problem with the "crazy velocities". The screens are getting triggered by the muzzle blast not the bullet. Screens, with out any muzzle blast shields, should always be set a minimum of 10' from the muzzle not you.

[Milano]

Hey thank you all. I think I have places to go from here.

[Photog]

Those Uberti guns are much stonger than you are probably giving them credit. They are the same gun as the 357 and 44mag versions, with a smaller chamber. Kepp it under 357 pressures and you are going to be ok. If you fill up a case of 44/40 with Bullseye or Titegroup, you may damage them (ok propably will damage them), but with the slowest possible powders like RL7, MP300, BlueDot, you are probably well under max pressure for the gun. Your Uberti 73 is factory rated for 44 mag pressures like 36,000 psi. Yes its chambered in a low pressure round, but they didn't make special crap steel just for your calibre, they are all they same parts and barrels.

[indian joe]

^^^^this!^^^^

You can't get enough RL7 into a .44-40 case to get into trouble.

250566

I have been having great difficulty accepting this since I first read it here - yeah I know a whole bunch of more experienced blokes than me do it - test it - tell us its ok .......................
How come I could get plenty of RE7 into a 375 Big Bore case to get top velocities under a 225 grain GC boolit (those things run hard) - this one has had me puzzled all along ............does this stuff burn hotter in a long case or what ?

[Outpost75]

In the .44-40 the pressure generated by RL7 is limited by the available powder capacity. When loading bullets heavier than 200 grains, to standard OAL to feed from tube magazines, the increased bullet seating depth reduces powder capacity so that the pressure rise produced is self-limiting.

That is not the case in the .375 Win, where a max load occupies less than the available powder space.

[pulaski]

I can not find reloader7 as a powder to use in the 44-40 in any or my reloading manuals .
Looked on the Alliant web site and it is not a recommended powder to use in this cartridge .
Why do you want to use R7 ? why the need to push it so fast ?
Maybe your data is a reflection of the fact that it should not be used ?
pulaski

[Outpost75]

RL7 in a compressed charge in the .44-40 duplicates the original black powder velocity and pressure with smokeless powder.

Both Hercules and Alliant listed pressure tested RL7 data for years. The fact that they dropped it from their brochure in recent years only reflects their marketing decision and has no bearing whatever on the suitability of the powder for use in the black powder cowboy cartridges such as .32-20, .38-40, .44-40, etc.

[Photog]

I just checked in with QuickLOAD V3.6, and running 100-105% of case capacity with RL7 produces 13k to 17k psi, with various boolits, with speeds around 1200-1300 fps. Lots of variables that I can't plug in, but it gave me a good idea of your pressures. That's running high-ish pressure for an old 1866 antique, but well within the ability of a new Uberti.

I have to concur that with RL7, you will run out of case capacity before you reach dangerous pressures for 44-40 in a modern Uberti 1873.

For example: Lyman 232g LSWC, 18" barrel, 22.97g RL7, @105% of case capacity (compressed charge) yields 17217 psi, 1376 fps, 975ft lbs and burns 64% of the propellant.

[Photog]

Ha! So i looked up what a case full (15.0gr) of Bullseye would be in 44-40.........>>74,451 psi, or more than double 357mag pressure.

Case full (18.44gr)of Titegroup>>>>>>> 130,130 psi. Thats a bit warm, so be careful out there!

[Savvy Jack]

Hello I am reloading for my Uberti 73 19" carbine and Uberti 4.75" SA both in 44-40. I am using GT Bullets 220 HP bullets that are sized .429. They are about 0.0015" over my slugged barrels. I loaded 6 of each load. Fired 5 through the rifle and 1 through the pistol. I tried getting velocities with a Lab Radar and it wasn't picking up the bullets for some reason so I went back to using my older ProShot chronograph about 5 feet infront of me. Yesterday I shot my loads and got scared! Could you all look at my data and tell me not to be scared.

RL7 23.5 WLP -- Rifle -- avg 1,193 f/s ES 107 Pistol -- 524 f/s

RL7 24.0 WLP -- Rifle -- avg 1,632 ES 36 Pistol -- 633 f/s

RL7 24.5 WLP -- Too scared of loosing body parts to try it.

RL7 23.5 Fed LP Magnum -- Rifle avg 1,286 ES 23 Pistol -- 740 f/s

RL7 24.0 Fed LP Magnum -- Rifle avg 2,830 f/s ES 367 Pistol -- 725 f/s

RL7 24.5 Fed LP Magnum -- Way too scared to shoot them after seeing the velocity readings.

Could someone with some experience with RL 7 and 44-40s help me with what's going on? I would think that my chronograph is lying to me but it was picking up all the bullets.



Nothing to be scared about....probably a bad chronograph but I am cerainly interested in any rechecks you make

Only about 65% of Reloder 7 is burned when used in the 44-40. Even less when used in a revolver.


Reference Test #63 using the 43-215C in the data at the link below
I currently use 25.8gr with CCI-300 primers with a 217gr-220gr Accurate Mold's 43-214A bullet. Just a slight airspace.
I don't use Magnum primers on any loads above or not listed in manuals. Magnum primers gave me up to 2,000psi higher readings in some loadings.

Averaging 1,350fps in Uberti 24" 73' and 760fps in Uberti revolver.

Here is all of my data, USE AT OWN RISK, keep those pressures below 15,000psi in the 73' and revolvers. SAAMI max is 11,000psi.
Click the Reloder 7 Tab at the bottom of the chart.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SUkiQZTGa7SuzIQJ-JQQ_abZ7HXtnLgk/view

More information: https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading/pressure-testing

The main and absolute issue with current reloading data is old weapon tight chambers and small .424 - .427 bores. Forcing some .429 - .430 loads down those barrels can create very high pressures.

[Savvy Jack]

I use rl7 in my 44-40 for rifle but under a 240gr lead slug at 27gr I topped out at 1625 with no pressure sign (I’m using a model 92 Winchester that is bran new it’s a group 2 strong action safe for hotter smokeless loads) I would replace the batteries in your crony and try again with the lighter ones with the chronograph 10’ from the muzzle (what I was always told that was the test distance for a rifle)

You will not see high pressure signs on a case until about 21,000psi, well exceeding Winchester 73' and revolver recommended pressures.. Then only slight flattening of the primers. Don't confuse 22,000cup with 21,000psi. About 17,000psi to 18,000psi is close to 22,000cup....and is only an estimate.

[Savvy Jack]

I can not find reloader7 as a powder to use in the 44-40 in any or my reloading manuals .
Looked on the Alliant web site and it is not a recommended powder to use in this cartridge .
Why do you want to use R7 ? why the need to push it so fast ?
Maybe your data is a reflection of the fact that it should not be used ?
pulaski

I talked to an Alliant Rep a while back. Although they may or may not talk to everyone in the same way, or even talk to anyone for that matter......I use Reloder 7 for many reasons and one is due to my personal conversation with the rep ;-)

The need to push it fast is to flatten the trajectory and retain energy at distances, replicating the original design of the cartridge, 1,300fps.

For those that do not know, Winchester manufactured the "High Velocity" metal patched bullet (JSP) cartridges from 1903 to WWII that retained nearly 1,600fps. By the 1950's, Remington's High Velocity was greatly neutered and safe for all firearms.


Tons of information is here if anyone is really interested in learning the true potential and history of the 44-40 cartridge.

www.44-40wcf.com

[Savvy Jack]

I just checked in with QuickLOAD V3.6, and running 100-105% of case capacity with RL7 produces 13k to 17k psi, with various boolits, with speeds around 1200-1300 fps. Lots of variables that I can't plug in, but it gave me a good idea of your pressures. That's running high-ish pressure for an old 1866 antique, but well within the ability of a new Uberti.

I have to concur that with RL7, you will run out of case capacity before you reach dangerous pressures for 44-40 in a modern Uberti 1873.

For example: Lyman 232g LSWC, 18" barrel, 22.97g RL7, @105% of case capacity (compressed charge) yields 17217 psi, 1376 fps, 975ft lbs and burns 64% of the propellant.

QL uses CIP, not CUP nor PSI for the 44-40

15,954cip is equal to 11,000psi/13,000cup as far as the method of testing, not from linear results


I used QL a lot when I first started but the CIP numbers didnt help me much beyond cup max data
252931

[Savvy Jack]

Ha! So i looked up what a case full (15.0gr) of Bullseye would be in 44-40.........>>74,451 psi, or more than double 357mag pressure.

Case full (18.44gr)of Titegroup>>>>>>> 130,130 psi. Thats a bit warm, so be careful out there!

Yeap, an accidental double charge of those fast burning pistol powders can go boom quick!!!

[Savvy Jack]

Just curious if you had a chance to re-chronograph some loads.