New cartridges.

[Bazoo]

I'm out of the loop on new cartridges. Met a guy in he gun store a few weeks back and he was telling me about the 224 Valkyrie. I had no idea. Then there is this 350 legend I hear about here on the forum. No idea again, other than what I've seen here.

I don't keep up with new cartridges or guns for that matter. I do read about old cartridges a lot though. Anyone else with me?

[Winger Ed.]

Do a search engine on it. It's interesting.

Sort of a hot rod version of the 5.56 with 90 grain boolits, that can be done with a AR style upper, but can still take GI magazines.

If somebody enjoys or makes a few bucks on the creature, I'm all for it.
Personally, at this stage of the game, I'll always a 7.62, 5.56, .45ACP, .30-30, .45-70, .357, & .22LR guy.

[rancher1913]

most are a flash in the pan, I like the tried and true like my 357 mag and a good old 30-30

[dverna]

The newest rifle cartridge I have is the .300 Win Mag. The newest pistol cartridge is the .40 S&W.

Highly unlikely they can come up with anything I need that is not already covered.

[Tom W.]

My rifles are both 30 caliber, and I can use my cast boolits in either one. They're both A.I. chambered, but I can still use standard cases in them. H
My handguns are common calibers, should I ever need to fire a factory load from them.
If I can't kill what I'm shooting at with what I'm shooting, it's time to just stay at the range.

[Valornor]

I always wait to see if they last for more then a couple years before I decide to give the new stuff a try. It sucks to invest in a new rifle, brass, reloading supplies and time into a cartridge that doesn’t stick around.

Lately it seems that all the new cartridges are taking old cartridges or old ideas and trying to make them work in an AR platform. 350 Legend appeals to those guys who are stuck hunting in areas that requires a straight wall cartridge.

The 22 Valkyrie is basically maximizing the amount of powder you can stick behind a 22 cal bullet and still chamber and feed it in an AR 15.


As for me I like to stick to the legacy cartridges unless I come across an odd ball cartridges. I like stuff that is just really different or niche. Usually they are complete wildcats.

Right now 338 Spectre is one that I kind of enjoy playing with.




Check out my website www.theballisticassistant.com

[M-Tecs]

The 224 Valkyrie was designed specifically for the PRS rifle competition. It allows for 90 and 100 grain bullets to mag feed out of standard AR mags.

The 350 legend was designed for states that only allow straight walled cases for deer hunting. Again it is designed to function out of a standard AR mag.

[Walks]

I think I can say that the newest cartridges I have are 40S&W and .32H&R in Hand Guns and 7mmTCU. In Hand Rifles.
The .223Rem in Long Guns.

Guess I don't really care for anything new and untested.

Did try the .300Whisper in a T/C bbl for a while. Too much trouble to make cases.

[Slugster]

I'm a retro kind of guy. Other than a couple of .223 & .308 "black scary guns" all of my rifles would be classed as oldies. The short & fat magnum craze passed me by. Never owned a .40 or a 10mm. Have no wondernines. My oldest is an 1873 Springfield that someone butchered, still a great shooter. Bought a Super Redhawk in .44 magnum when they first came out. Last handgun I bought was a S&W 686 .357 in 4". Modern guns don't really blow my skirt up. I like "experienced" firearms better. They tell a story and have history. Just my .02

[chaos]

I always wait to see if they last for more then a couple years before I decide to give the new stuff a try. It sucks to invest in a new rifle, brass, reloading supplies and time into a cartridge that doesn’t stick around.

Lately it seems that all the new cartridges are taking old cartridges or old ideas and trying to make them work in an AR platform. 350 Legend appeals to those guys who are stuck hunting in areas that requires a straight wall cartridge.

The 22 Valkyrie is basically maximizing the amount of powder you can stick behind a 22 cal bullet and still chamber and feed it in an AR 15.


As for me I like to stick to the legacy cartridges unless I come across an odd ball cartridges. I like stuff that is just really different or niche. Usually they are complete wildcats.

Right now 338 Spectre is one that I kind of enjoy playing with.




Check out my website www.theballisticassistant.com



I dont have much use for all the Whiz bang cartridges either. I have hunted big game with nothing but the .44 Mag for the last 13 or so years. 300 WM before that since I was 15.

I did pick up a .350 legend for the wife who is super recoil sensitive. That round stuffed in an AR pattern rifle has virtually zero recoil. Brass is plentiful and cheap. I'll stack it deep enough that I dont care if it goes by the wayside. Worse comes to worst, and I'll barrel swap it back to .223.

[MrHarmless]

The last fifteen years have been accented by boutique calibers build to diversify the performance envelope of the AR platform. The most successful ones seem to be those that avoid mismatching too many parts, e.g. barrel, bolt, magazine, as well as how quickly and effectively they're able maintain supply of their product. .224 Valk is exactly what other people have mentioned, trying to maximize the long range potential of the .224 projectile.

The .350 Legend hit the straight wall niche, the cheap brass box, and the minimum component change box, but I personally think they really screwed the pooch on bullet diameter, which, unless I'm mistaken, is .356 cal, instead of .357/8 cal, which has caused some hubub with certain states DNR set caliber requirements. They also had a particularly rough go with factory ammo in the first few months, a lot of which was inconsistent and over crimped, which caused head space issues.

.50 Beowulf tried to fill that niche quite a while ago, but primarily marketed itself to military and law enforcement, has a few component change requirements, such as the bolt head, and has an odd rebated rim. As a consequence, coupled with more expensive and less plentiful reloading component availability (boolits and bullets, as well as brass), .450 Bushmaster has kicked it's butt in pretty much every department in terms of public adoption.

[trapper9260]

I went with the 327 mag because of all the rounds you can shoot in that same gun for what I was looking for and work for me .

[lightman]

I'm a little slow to jump on anything thats the newest and greatest. I find myself watching with interest on how long some of the new cartridges last. A few surprise me but quite a few don't.

[buckwheatpaul]

I am with you....most of the new better than ice cream cartridges don't last.....the most successful cartridges started life as military rounds.....and most are still used and produced.....30-06, 308, 223, 45 acp, 9mm......I will stay with the old reliable rounds that you can walk into virtually any hardware store in some small town and buy a box of the standard old yet reliable cartridges.....IMHO

[nun2kute]

The newest rifle cartridge I have is the .300 Win Mag. The newest pistol cartridge is the .40 S&W.

Highly unlikely they can come up with anything I need that is not already covered.


What has "Need" to do with it ? If your not Liberal or Democrat guns are "Fun" ! Their ALL on my list if I live long enough. I'm just working from the top down.

[Rich/WIS]

Same camp here, like the classic calibers. With rounds like the 243, 30/06, 45 ACP and such they are proven performers with cast or jacketed, and brass is plentiful and cheap (if not free). Still recall years ago when the Winchester short magnums came out and within a few years the brass and ammo was scarce to non-existent. Seemed whenever some new winder blew into town the range would have a bunch of users, but within a short time they would all but disappear while the old standards would soldier on. There is nothing wrong with new and exotic but was surprised how few of the owners reloaded and were totally dependent on factory ammo.

[Froogal]

Before I bought my first semi-auto handgun, I really thought that the .40 caliber was the way to go. Then I noticed that no matter which store I walked into that sold ammo, the 9mm stuff was in abundance, so I bought a tried and true 9mm. I've never regretted that decision.

[Valornor]

Before I bought my first semi-auto handgun, I really thought that the .40 caliber was the way to go. Then I noticed that no matter which store I walked into that sold ammo, the 9mm stuff was in abundance, so I bought a tried and true 9mm. I've never regretted that decision.

I did the same thing, except I went the other way. I got a 45 ACP, and have loved shooting shooting 45 that I never looked back at the 40 S&W. Sold the 40 S&W.


Check out my website www.theballisticassistant.com

[Tracy]

I don't chase the latest and greatest, but I also don't discount a cartridge just because it is "new." Case in point: .300 Blackout, which is just a commercialized version of the overly hyped and super protected .300 Whisper, which is just an adaptation of the wildcat .300 Fireball that had been with us for awhile. The .300 Whisper is just a .300 Fireball with a fast-twist barrel so it can stabilize heavy bullets at subsonic velocities.

Before, a .300 Fireball barrel was an expensive custom barrel. Dies were available but expensive. It was a worthwhile cartridge, though. I've always called it a rimless .32-20. Now with the popularity of .300 Blackout, everything about it is cheap if you don't mind the fast twist. You don't even have to form your own brass if you don't want to. And even a barrel with the original 1:12 twist is less expensive than it used to be.

Sometimes ya gotta just look past the hype.

[dverna]

Just a follow up...

I did buy M70 in .243 WSSM and regretted it. I was lucky to be able to sell the gun and brass for almost what I paid for them. It taught me a lesson.

Last spring my buddy wanted to replace his .270 deer rifle with the 6.5 CM. He had read too many gun rags. Showed him the ballistics and asked him if it was really worth it or was he a sucker...obvious answer...NO!

BTW, went through a process of thinning the herd and got rid of a lot of guns that met my wants at some point in my life. I still have too many...just last week "found" a gun a thought I had sold...now that is bad!!!

Just for giggles...here is the list of calibers I narrowed it down to:

Rifles:
.22LR (3 bolt actions, 2 lever actions, and 1 Semi-auto)
.223 (2 bolt actions and 4 AR's)
.30/30 (3 lever actions...not currently used much but like having AAR's (Appalachian Assault Rifles) if/when AR's are banned)
.308 (3 bolt actions)
.300 Win Mag (bolt action...not current,y needed but may someday hunt elk and large bear)
.38/.357 (3 lever actions)

Pistols:
.22 LR (revolver and 3 SA)
.38/.357 (4 revolvers)
9mm (4 SA)
.40 S&W (2 SA)...looking at dropping it
.45 ACP (2 SA)...looking at dropping it

Gone are .222, .243, .25/06, .270, .30/06, .38/55, .380 and .44 Mag. Not because they are bad cartridges, but because in my quest to KISS, they did not offer much to fit my needs. The cash allowed me to invest in....redundancy, better quality guns, better optics and a sizeable inventory of components. Simplifying my inventory of components encouraged buying in bulk and I had the cash to do it.

Six powders cover my needs for rifle, pistol and shotgun (the numbers in brackets are my minimums):

Varget (24 lbs)
H4895 (8 lbs)
H4831 (3 lbs)
Promo (32 lbs)
Unique (8 lbs)
HP38 (16 lbs)

Adding a "new and improved" cartridge is highly unlikely. Thought about selling the .300 Mag and getting a .375 H&H but that cartridge is over 100 years old...LOL

[cwlongshot]

Hahaha. Im like that with powders!!

I read up on all the latest calibers. Rarely will partake. But I do have a 350L. Mostly cause Im a 35 cal nut.

I also jumped on the 25/45 Sharps when it came out. (Herd of that one??). Basically its a 25/223 designed to duplicate 250 Savage numbers with a 87g bullet.



CW

[DonH]

I have no problem with the plethora of new cartridges. They do one thing very well - entice people to buy new guns to shoot them in and that keeps gunmakers in business. I do have my own thoughts about them and why people buy them.
The .350 Legend is a straight-walled round which works for deer hunters in my part of the country but what sells it is that in works in ARs. Quite a few of us have been chambering single shots for .357 Max for years. I have yet to see a .350 load from Winchester that beats what many get from the Max despite the Legend's much longer case.
The biggest joke, which no one mentioned yet is the 6.5 Creedmoor. I say joke, not because it is not a good cartridge but because of what most guys THINK it is. Listen to talk about this 6.5 and you may be convinced it's a Supermag ray gun. But look at ballistics. The 6.5 Creedmoor was intended to keep the high BC 6.5 bullets supersonic enough to allow good scores on paper targets from 200 yds to 1200 yes while kicking the shooter less than a .308. Oh, and fit a short action. It is loaded to higher psi than a .260 Rem to match that rounds performance. It does not stomp the ancient 6.5 x55 despite being loaded at least 16kpsi hotter but will eat throats out of barrels a heck of a lot quicker.
If guy read ballistic charts before they open their wallets a lot of new cartridges would never leave the factory. A little reading would reveal the .270, 7mm and .300 WSSMs to be nothing more than .270 Win, .280 Rem and .30-06 in different wrappers. I dare you to prove to me that you can shoot better in the field because they fit short actions. But people buy the hype before they buy the rifle. But it's all good because it's about being free to have fun in the flavor we choose. (BTW, the WSSM case when necked to .358 makes a potent round that fits Indiana's deer regs.)

It DOES get under my skin when a maker hypes a new round like .223 WSSM only to see throats vanish before the new owners eyes then stop making ammo leaving the guy stuck with the useless thing. But hey shooters, remember sayings like "if it sounds to good to be true it probably is" or "there is no such thing as free lunch"?

[Bazoo]

Interesting responses. I got a buddy that was all interested in the 6.5 creedmoor. He asked me about it and then seemed to regret asking when I told him what I thought of it vs something like 30-30 or 30-06. Fact is we're in brush country, 200 yard shots are the longest a person ever sees and more commonly 50-100. My opinion was that for a hunting rig it wasn't nearly as practical. My buddy just wants a hunting rifle. He ain't a great shot and won't see the increased accuracy potential. He doesn't reload. I suggested 30-06 because of it's wide range of factory ammunition and lower cost.

[Petrol & Powder]

There are occasionally new cartridges that accomplish something new but most of what could be done.......has been done.

[wmitty]

I’m sure some of y’all are old enough to remember the 5 mm Remington rimfire. The gun rags went nuts when it was introduced about ‘70 and I was 17 at that time. I had a 788 and 582 Remington and decided I would watch the 5 mm and see what happened. It taught me a lesson I have never forgotten...

[Traffer]

The newest cartridge gun I own is a 9mm luger. I like a new caliber get tested a bit first before I buy one.

[DonH]

[QUOTE=Bazoo;4754527]Interesting responses. I got a buddy that was all interested in the 6.5 creedmoor. He asked me about it and then seemed to regret asking when I told him what I thought of it vs something like 30-30 or 30-06. Fact is we're in brush country, 200 yard shots are the longest a person ever sees and more commonly 50-100. My opinion was that for a hunting rig it wasn't nearly as practical. My buddy just wants a hunting rifle. He ain't a great shot and won't see the increased accuracy potential. He doesn't reload. I suggested 30-06 because of it's wide range of factory ammunition and lower cost.[/QU

What sets me apart from the crowd (except here) is that I think the 6.5 Creedmoor would be perfectly suited to the hunting you describe. All it wants is a hunting bullet. Ammunition for the thing seems to be most everywhere except maybe Walmart. I'm a believer in the 6.5mm caliber (non magnums please).
Just had a thought that maybe I should get a Creedmoor and treat it like what I really want, a 6.5x54 MS!

[pmer]

I didn't have any cartridges between 223 and 30 cal. I didn't think it was a big deal till my youngsters went to firearms safety and wanted to deer hunt. Most of my shooting is done with 8mm 35 and 45 cal rifles. It didn't take long to figure out that the recoil was going to be an issue.
I previously owned 243, 308 win. and 6.5-284 and know the advantage of the longer 6.5mm bullets. So to fill the gap the 6.5 Creedmoor made the most sense to me and I bought a Savage Axis in 6.5 Cm.

The rifle is lights out accurate, shoots good with a hot barrel, ammo is a buck a round, dies were 35 bucks. All I needed were hunting bullets because I already had slower powders that i wasn't using.

Who knows if the 6.5 Cm will last but a deer won't be able to tell the difference if its a 260, 6.5x55, 7mm 08. It's more gun than a 243 imo.

So I have 3 new shooters and they passed 32 Win Spcl and 300 Sav and decided to go with 300 Blackout-110 Barnes TAC TX; 6.5CM-129 Horn SP and a 38-40 WCF NOE 200 WFN loaded warm with 2400 in a G2 Contender carbine.
I'm going with 358 win and 12 ga with .678 round ball.

[rking22]

Newest rifle cartridge I own is 375 Winchester and I treat it like a 38-55. I don’t pick a cartridge and look for a rifle so chambered. I see a rifle I want and deal with what it is chambered for. Personally I don’t see any real difference in anything from the 243 until you get to a 30-06, for actual hunting use. It seems the #1 criteria for a cartridge nowadays is how it fits in a AR, oh and it has to have a catchy name. Yep, the 6.5creedmore is almost a 260 AND it fits in an AR. The 300BO is redo of 32-20 (with too fast a twist for my likes) but hey it fits in an AR! No matter to me, as I like old guns for my hunting. Glad they keep introducing new loads, but there ain’t much that hasn’t already been done. Besides, if we all liked the same thing it would be a pretty boring hobby, and not as many old rifles hitting the pawn shops to buy the newest flavor of the day.

[dondiego]

Hahaha. Im like that with powders!!

I read up on all the latest calibers. Rarely will partake. But I do have a 350L. Mostly cause Im a 35 cal nut.

I also jumped on the 25/45 Sharps when it came out. (Herd of that one??). Basically its a 25/223 designed to duplicate 250 Savage numbers with a 87g bullet.



CW

How do you like that 25/45 Sharps? I almost pulled the trigger on that one because I have a bunch of 25 caliber bullets for my 25-06.

[Moonie]

Before I bought my first semi-auto handgun, I really thought that the .40 caliber was the way to go. Then I noticed that no matter which store I walked into that sold ammo, the 9mm stuff was in abundance, so I bought a tried and true 9mm. I've never regretted that decision.

I bought a 40, then got spare barrels in 357 Sig and 9mm... Best of all worlds lol.

[Texas by God]

In my opinion the neatest thing about the 300 Blackout and the 6.8 SPC and similar cartridges is that they proved that you don't need a 30 ought six or a seven mm Magnum to kill deer at a hundred yards.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[cwlongshot]

How do you like that 25/45 Sharps? I almost pulled the trigger on that one because I have a bunch of 25 caliber bullets for my 25-06.

I like it... But feel it’s pushed too hard to achieve the ballistics they advertise.

I shoot the Hornadt 110 FTX that came out for the 25-35 and LOVE IT!! AR Comp and AA2200 are awesome producing sub MOA accuracy and 2600+ velocities. But I’m a heavy bullet guy. Velocity doesn’t impress me with out accuracy.

6.5 creed is a EXCELLENT EXAMPLE. I was at a Steel shoot talking guns and explained to a group who WAS enameled by the Creed, that the Swede has been carrying that mantle for a hundred years!! Some where shocked, while others futile tried to argue and carry there parroted responses.

CW

[Bazoo]

What sets me apart from the crowd (except here) is that I think the 6.5 Creedmoor would be perfectly suited to the hunting you describe. All it wants is a hunting bullet. Ammunition for the thing seems to be most everywhere except maybe Walmart. I'm a believer in the 6.5mm caliber (non magnums please).
Just had a thought that maybe I should get a Creedmoor and treat it like what I really want, a 6.5x54 MS!

That's a really good point.
I didn't talk him out of it, but I think he was surprised I wasn't all enthusiastic about it.

[white eagle]

I have both the 6.5 Creedmoor and the 224 Valkyrie
I got them because they were designed with the AR or MSR
in mind
besides most get their feathers in a ruffle when you mention them
not the same as ol bessy

[nelsonted1]

In bought a .376 steyr- a short and weak .375 h&r mag- several years ago because steyr got caught selling to Iranians and had to leave the u.s. I. got the rifle for $400. Told myself and everyone we all need one stupid gun. Turned out the most fun gun I own. Brass is high dollar but still made. Bought a 300 whisper type ar upper several years ago. Also turned out fun. I've been lucky in my idiocy.

[nelsonted1]

One thing a creedmore will do is get a recoil sensitive person through a high power season. A gripe way back was 243 was hard on throats.

[rking22]

If I still shot competitively I just might have a 6.5 creedmore, but I doubt it is any more friendly to the throats at 65,000psi than the 243 was. Nothing wrong with the new rounds, but nothing earth shattering either.

[gwpercle]

I read about them in the gun magazines , have subscriptions to 3 or 4 , but in no rush to go out and buy any of them...or any AR type rifles .
Got my 1903A3 Springfield sporter in 30-06 and Winchester 94 in 30-30 , my "tactical rifle" is a 303 British Enfield No 4 MKI ( 1942) , with a few 15 round magazines ....I'm good !
Gary

[Petrol & Powder]

In my opinion the neatest thing about the 300 Blackout and the 6.8 SPC and similar cartridges is that they proved that you don't need a 30 ought six or a seven mm Magnum to kill deer at a hundred yards.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Some of us knew that already but you're right !

There are few places in my neck of the woods that offer shots over 300 yards (and the vast majority of deer are taken at far shorter ranges) and no places that require a 7mm Remington Mag, and yet people continue to buy them. Of the people that buy the 7mm Mag., you would be hard pressed to find 1 in10 that could even utilize the range offered by that cartridge.

If you can't cleanly kill a deer at less than 300 yards with a 7mm Mauser, 7mm-08 or 308 Win., you need to go back to the range.

[Hickory]

These new cartridges, calibers and powders are not for us old guys. They are for the next generation of shooters, reloaders and hunters.
We have had our hay-day, the next generation will want theirs.

[castaroo]

the last deer I killed was with my heavy barrelled 303 brit , I made this one out of spare parts I found at the tip , except for the barrel , that was new and does shoot better than I can , action is a BSA 1916, iron sights no scope

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive seen about every new round that came out called a flash in the pan. When the 357mag came out everyone said it would never last because it had to much recoil. Now we have 500 smiths. When the 270 came out everyone asked why buy something that underperforms an 06 in every category. 243 To light for big game to heavy for varmints. 3030 Way to small of a bullet to be effective. Who knows what will really be a flash in the pan or a legitimate long term round. ANYTHING new today is questionable because you can find something close to it that already exists. Long time ago I quit trying to justify guns I wanted. matter of fact if its a bit obscure I like it even more. Lots of us originaly came to this form and started casting because what we wanted wasn't available. Theres nothing in north America that cant be killed cleanly with an 06. So does that make any round that came after it just a flash?

[pmer]

It seems to me that marketing departments in the firearm industry play to current interests in the buying public. Some years ago the magnum craze was hot. More recently states with cartridge requirements are having an effect on current cartridge designs. What I think is good about it is bullet manufactures are there matching bullets to the velocities. For example my 300 Blackout isn't fast enough to expand a Hornaday 150 grain SP at 1950 FPS. But Hornaday and Barnes have 110 grain or so bullets designed to be effective on deer sized game. A max charge of Lil'gun behind that Barnes 110 TAC TX in 16'' barreled 300 BO will split water jug in two up the middle to same effect that my 32 Win Spl does. I'm not saying these two are equal on deer but with the right bullet they should be effective.

Lots of people here love the 45-70 and load their Marlins down to 1600 FPS or less. The 458 SOCOM is completely at home at this velocity with 300-400 grain boolits. I used to have a Marlin 45-70....twice.

I got my first AR15 over 25 years ago and it wasn't pretty back then either. I was shooting High Power with a M1 Garand and having a great time. I eventually had the LGS put a Douglas barrel in it and my scores went up. I was basicaly just out there to improve my shooting and not really to "win". BUT these AR's started showing up in service rifle and were cleaning everybody's clock. The M1A crowd didn't care if I out scored a few of them with the Garand. But it wasn't at all hard to get them to start trash talking those stupid little ARs even to the point of wanting to start a new class. They didn't want to admit it but they could see the writing on the target that the AR was here and here to stay.

[glaciers]

I had started reading a Forum the other day that I came across, and it started out saying something about the 30-06 and the 270 Win being obsolete. Blasphemy. Yeah I'm and old guy, but, there are few cartridges that preform better by any margin that's worth while. Need more punch then the 30-06? I went to the 35 Whelen and the 338 Win mag. Now don't get me wrong, there are lots of cartridges out there that will do the job, but, by how much? Now I own calibers from 50 Alaskan to the 223 (I want a 17 Hornet, just saying), so I have options. But I keep coming back to the 30-06 as my go to rifle. Lot's of hype, sales pitch, and that's great to keep the ball rolling. Don't want to discourage the firearms interest for newer generations. But don't tell me that the 30-06 is obsolete. All calibers have there limitations, you just need to be aware of them and deal with it accordingly.
An earlier post in this thread was talking about a friend that wanted a 6.5 Creedmoor and though he should get rid of that old 270 that he had been using (which had worked just fine) for decades. Why. Unless you want one, there's no real reason. As I said I have a few firearms, but I don't need a 6.5 Creedmoor as I all ready have a semi-custom 260 Remington. If I had it to do over again, I'd go with the Creedmoor. But it was not out at that time I made the 260.
When the WSSM and the RUM, or whatever came out, I was unimpressed. 200fps more! Hot dog!! Hanging out on the fringe of chamber pressures, I'll pass. I did read up on them as there's a chance that something exciting may come along.
I do have one AR 15 lower. One of these days I'll get a 223 upper for it, and I thinking a 300 Blackout would be fun. Even that new 350 Legend looks like it might be fun on the AR platform. But then, I'd have a AR. Might get into it one day. Maybe.
The problem with the AR platform and lots of newer rifles is, their plastic. Blue steel and wood for me. Somethings never change, and I guess I'm just happy being stuck in the past.

[sharps4590]

As some have mentioned, if a "new" cartridge gets someone all bleary eyed, breathing hard and they have to have it, good for the makers of firearms and ammo but, don't expect me to run down to the nearest gun shop or jump on an online site and buy one. As someone said, pretty much what can be done has been done....and except for a rifle like the AR it was done over 100 years ago.

Besides, there is more than a few hundred old cartridges that are as good as anything out there today that I haven't had the opportunity to play with! I've had a ball with such cartridges as the 9.3 X 75R Nimrod, 9 X 71 Peterlongo, 7 X 64 Brenneke, 10.5 X 47R. 9 and 9.3 X 57, 8.15 X 46R, 8.7 X 55R, 8 X 56 and 6.5 X 54 Mannlicher/Schoenauer, one I call a 9.3 X 30US-R because it is a pre-nitro drilling that was re-chambered to a cartridge easily made from 30-40 Krag...and it is incredibly accurate and a hoot to shoot, the 11.15 X 60R and even my 500 BPE. Some of those will outperform newer cartridges in their class, others equal anything in their class and some are just old, obsolete and/or historical. I have others but I haven't scratched the surface!!

Now, that isn't a game for everyone, which I freely admit but, I thoroughly enjoy it. However, you delve into those old cartridges long enough and seriously enough, pretty soon you see that as far as ballistics go, as Solomon said, "there is nothing new under the sun". Just to pick on the 6.5 CM, anyone with the knowledge and ability can take a 6.5 X 55 Swede or 6.5 X 57, (or any of several other 6.5's), and do everything the CM can do...and more. Both those cartridges are pre-1900. Then you can get into the "standard" US hunting cartridges like the -06, 270, 280, 308, 243, 30-30, not to get into the magnums or short magnums, or, "the less than popular today cartridges" like the 257 Roberts, 300 Savage, the hoary old 30-40 Krag, the 250 Savage, and you'll be hard pressed to find a hunting cartridge any better. More popular or one you like better but, no more effective. Which describes all the cartridges I mentioned that I like to play with. I like them better because they're less popular or completely unknown but, none are any better than my old 270.

I didn't like the M-16 in basic training some 47 years ago...and my opinion hasn't changed. That others like/love it is fine with me and over the decades its versatility and accuracy have been proven but, I have absolutely no desires to own one.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I find the new cartridges very entertaining. You know how powerful that terrible AR15 is. Then there are the better than/as good as the '30-30 or 300 Savage or 45-70' sort of, kinda' cartridges for the AR or a 'TACTICOOL' bolt gun. There have always been purpose built cartridges, we called them 'WILDCATS'. I even have a couple, a 270-308 Improved on a Savage 99 (before the 7-08) and an 8-08, because there were many pristine and cheap 8mm barrels and plenty of 308 brass long ago. I like the 6.5 Creedmore as a better deer rifle than a .243 with better press than the 260 Rem. Mostly new stuff is good because it provides discussion, it is REALLY BORING when you hear 'the old OUGHT SIX is...'. Since the 8x57, there really has been little progress. I still shoot the 300 Savage, 45-70, for hunting, the 9mm, 45 ACP and 45 Colt in handguns, again the new stuff is entertaining, if not particularly better or more useful.

[Hickory]

Are we (old guys) living the life, fulfilling the dream, or just stuck in a groove we can't get out of?

[Lloyd Smale]

I call it the might mite. The little engine that could. I shot 5 deer this year between a 110 and 200 yards with one of my blackouts using the barnes 110 at 2400 fps. It did massive internal damage. As much or maybe even more then ive seen out of 3030s at those ranges. It is like the 3030 though. You have to pick the proper projectile. The 3030 about does it for you because until recently it was the only round with bullet designed specifically for it. Blackout is the same. Load a 150 hot core or ballistic tip and its probably going to be a complete failure on living animals. But loaded with that 110 barnes that was designed specifically for the bo and the velocitys it produces and its an over achiever and that's being conservative. Ive shot a couple does with 556s just to say I killed a deer with an ar back years ago and had a ar10 that I hunted with but it was just to heavy for hauling around the swamp so I sold it. This year with the black out was eye opening and I think next year is going to be a ar only year for crop damage season. Ive got a new ar10 built (not to carry but to shoot off a solid rest at long range. I also have the lower done on and some bullets and dies bought so far for my 6.5 Grendel project. To hunting with a gun I built myself with ammo I loaded myself is about like winning a drag race with the motor you built. sure I could just grab a bolt gun out of the safe or go down the the gun shop and buy a 270 or 243 and a couple boxes of corelocks but if I thought like that I would probably have never found this place. What I found here was a bunch that loved handloading, casting and even building and improving there guns. GUN PEOPLE. Personaly I could care less what sells at the gunshop or what the guy who owns the gunshop recommends. 50 percent of the guys here have forgot more then that idiot will ever know about guns.
It seems to me that marketing departments in the firearm industry play to current interests in the buying public. Some years ago the magnum craze was hot. More recently states with cartridge requirements are having an effect on current cartridge designs. What I think is good about it is bullet manufactures are there matching bullets to the velocities. For example my 300 Blackout isn't fast enough to expand a Hornaday 150 grain SP at 1950 FPS. But Hornaday and Barnes have 110 grain or so bullets designed to be effective on deer sized game. A max charge of Lil'gun behind that Barnes 110 TAC TX in 16'' barreled 300 BO will split water jug in two up the middle to same effect that my 32 Win Spl does. I'm not saying these two are equal on deer but with the right bullet they should be effective.

Lots of people here love the 45-70 and load their Marlins down to 1600 FPS or less. The 458 SOCOM is completely at home at this velocity with 300-400 grain boolits. I used to have a Marlin 45-70....twice.

I got my first AR15 over 25 years ago and it wasn't pretty back then either. I was shooting High Power with a M1 Garand and having a great time. I eventually had the LGS put a Douglas barrel in it and my scores went up. I was basicaly just out there to improve my shooting and not really to "win". BUT these AR's started showing up in service rifle and were cleaning everybody's clock. The M1A crowd didn't care if I out scored a few of them with the Garand. But it wasn't at all hard to get them to start trash talking those stupid little ARs even to the point of wanting to start a new class. They didn't want to admit it but they could see the writing on the target that the AR was here and here to stay.

[sharps4590]

Hickory, first of all I have to tell you that you are a doppelganger for a good friend of mine. When I first saw your picture I honestly thought you were Jim.

To your question, nahh..I don't think most of us old guys could be put into any one of those categories. Maybe all of them at one time or another but not just one. I have friends my age that can't wait for the next new thing to come out, some that are perfectly content with their '06, 270, 30-30, 308, or any of the other popular, more than adequate cartridges. Then there is a few like me who can't, or won't, stop digging around in the dust bin of history looking for those old, perfectly adequate cartridges which never achieved any level of popularity. Often their ballistics match or exceed the current crop, such as the Newton or Brenneke cartridges and, a huge number of common but unheard and/or unpopular cartridges do the same. Some were limited by the propellants available at the time of their introduction. Had Brenneke or Newton had IMR or H 4831, there never would have been a Roy Weatherby.

I like to think, whether it's true or not, that those of us who do that dust bin digging are performing a service. There's lots of old firearms out there in cartridges for which ammo is not available and through our work, many can be put back to use, if so desired. Or, a box or two of ammo can be had just to shoot it once in a while. I think we have to keep in mind that those old cartridges are the shoulders that today's cartridges are standing on.

We all have different interests and, thank God we do. Were it not for that, the first device propelling a projectile with black powder would never have seen the light of day. The self contained cartridge would only exist in the mind of someone. Smokeless powder would still smoke and because of smokeless powder, the projectile has progressed in leaps and bounds...as has that smokeless powder. Semi and full auto would still be relegated to Jules Verne like novels. The study of firearms and cartridges is immensely interesting and makes for a heck of a ride!!

[rintinglen]

saving the .327 and the 40 S&W, every cartridge I load for is pretty much as old as I am or older. I don't own a black rifle, I prefer round guns to bottom feeders, and Levers and Bolt guns to Autoloaders in rifles. That said, whatever floats your boat is all right by me.

[Traffer]

I just buy what is cheap. If it is a 6.5 creedmore or a 3040 kraig, just learn to like it. hahahah. But I do believe that the vast majority of hunters do not need a long range rifle. A 45-70 would work for most situations. People just want new stuff. Like cars, got to have a new style so people will want/buy a new one. I bought a new car in 1999 and still drive it. It is the only car I have driven in 20 years.

[DonH]

I, personally, think a cartridge or gun is bad or unnecessary just because they are new nor do I think an old one is good because it is old. Or vice versa. There are ways of getting things done that others are breathless over that don't appeal to me; longer range game-shooting for instance. What I do like are facts.
Call me a nerd if you like but I read ballistic tables. When a new round comes out I look for pertinent data like case capacity muzzle velocity, twist rate of barrels it is fired from. That tells me what range of bullet weights are compatible. Then I look at ballistic tables and compare to similer cartridges. This is a great BS filter. If a round or cartridge/gun combo appeal to me for a particular reason that's fine but I can make an informed decision.
A well-known gun writer wrote some years back, "Take a really good bullet of good sectional density and start it out at 2300-2400 fps and it will do the job." Look at the great old hunting rounds, British, European, etc and the amount of game killed with them and the statement is proven . Now a guy may have to be more Hunter than shooter....

[higgins]

They keep coming out with new cartridges so that reloaders will buy new powders "tailored" to a couple of the new cartridges, new bullets, etc.

[cainttype]

There’s nothing wrong with “New”.
Every cartridge mentioned in this whole thread was “New” at one time.

Being “Good” doesn’t guarantee acceptance, either... Good cartridges have disappeared while lesser offerings found success, so equating success with any perceived advantages is a mistake.

I’m in favor of shooting whatever makes you grin. 99.99% of the shooting sports is a game, you might as well enjoy it.

Bring the new stuff on... I’m sure I’ll find an occasional offering I think is great and/or better for certain applications than any “classic” available...
When a sport/pursuit becomes stagnant, it’s time is coming to an end.

[Texas by God]

Next to the .300 BO, the newest cartridges in my house is the 25-06 Rem. (1969) and the 22-250(1965)- but both of those date from the 1930’s as wildcats. I’m not interested in any newer ones, just older ones that I can cast for.

[big bore 99]

I've not found any need to go beyond my 45-70's. Light Unique loads for squirrel head shots and full house loads for just about anything else on the planet.

[murf205]

I just buy what is cheap. If it is a 6.5 creedmore or a 3040 kraig, just learn to like it. hahahah. But I do believe that the vast majority of hunters do not need a long range rifle. A 45-70 would work for most situations. People just want new stuff. Like cars, got to have a new style so people will want/buy a new one. I bought a new car in 1999 and still drive it. It is the only car I have driven in 20 years.

Your post reminded me of a range session last year. A guy at the bench next to me said he had found a real bargain in a 6.5 Creedmore and was going to sight it in. I was a T/C Compass and I have to admit that is was not the most aesthetically handsome piece of hardware I ever saw, but I didn't have a nickel in it so I kept my thoughts to myself and complemented him for scoring a $299 rifle. He opened a box of factory ammo and after he bore sighted it at a 50 yd target, I could tell that he knew enough not to start blazing away. 1st shot was on paper so he moved to his 100 yd target, which he had put up before he started shooting. (Good etiquette not to call a cease fire to move his target). He got it zeroed in 5 or 6 rounds and let the barrel cool for a good 30 min before shooting a 4 shot group into a bughole--and then another 4 shot bughole! Would a (insert our favorite cartridge here) have done the same? Maybe, maybe not. He was a pretty darned good stool shooter and echoed the same thing about the tried and true loadings but like a lot of us, he admitted being a sucker for a good deal.
A friend of mine's son fell victim for burning powder and he is now fully infected with the rifle bug. Of course that meant buying a 6.5 CM. He is really sold on the idea of short action rifles, I'm sure from reading the latest gun magazines. The part that I find comical is that he rides a 4 wheeler to within a couple hundred yds of a box blind and could have a rifle with the action as long as your leg and with 35 yr old muscles, he would never know the difference. But.....he is gaining experience and loading for everything he shoots so it is not in vain for sure. My point of all this is; the 6.5 CM would never have had to see the light of day if some big ammo/gun company had legitimized the 6.6/06 but it would not have sold because it is formed on that old fashion 30-06 case. So...let's enjoy the short action craze AND the 6.5 while it last. You know, this might just be the one that does.

[pmer]

The 6.5 Creedmoor is basically a .250-3000 Ackley Improved with the case neck expanded out to 6.5mm. The biggest difference is in the shoulder angle.

Im not totally mr new cartridge guy either as one of my top favorites is the 38-40 WCF. But I stunk that up a little bit by only shooting it in a G2 Contender carbine. I just think it's a neat cartridge. Shoots great in the Contender and reaches 41mag territory.

[drac0nic]

Newest rifle cartridge I own is 375 Winchester and I treat it like a 38-55. I don’t pick a cartridge and look for a rifle so chambered. I see a rifle I want and deal with what it is chambered for. Personally I don’t see any real difference in anything from the 243 until you get to a 30-06, for actual hunting use. It seems the #1 criteria for a cartridge nowadays is how it fits in a AR, oh and it has to have a catchy name. Yep, the 6.5creedmore is almost a 260 AND it fits in an AR. The 300BO is redo of 32-20 (with too fast a twist for my likes) but hey it fits in an AR! No matter to me, as I like old guns for my hunting. Glad they keep introducing new loads, but there ain’t much that hasn’t already been done. Besides, if we all liked the same thing it would be a pretty boring hobby, and not as many old rifles hitting the pawn shops to buy the newest flavor of the day.

The "fits in an AR" qualifier is probably one of the most important IMO. People are taking what are niche cartridges and making them into mainstream ones. That's fine and all because hey it's not my money. If someone gifted me a 300 or a 6.5 creed I'd take it. I may do a 300BO anyways because I like the idea of casting for it honestly.


I have no problem with the plethora of new cartridges. They do one thing very well - entice people to buy new guns to shoot them in and that keeps gunmakers in business. I do have my own thoughts about them and why people buy them.
The .350 Legend is a straight-walled round which works for deer hunters in my part of the country but what sells it is that in works in ARs. Quite a few of us have been chambering single shots for .357 Max for years. I have yet to see a .350 load from Winchester that beats what many get from the Max despite the Legend's much longer case.
The biggest joke, which no one mentioned yet is the 6.5 Creedmoor. I say joke, not because it is not a good cartridge but because of what most guys THINK it is. Listen to talk about this 6.5 and you may be convinced it's a Supermag ray gun. But look at ballistics. The 6.5 Creedmoor was intended to keep the high BC 6.5 bullets supersonic enough to allow good scores on paper targets from 200 yds to 1200 yes while kicking the shooter less than a .308. Oh, and fit a short action. It is loaded to higher psi than a .260 Rem to match that rounds performance. It does not stomp the ancient 6.5 x55 despite being loaded at least 16kpsi hotter but will eat throats out of barrels a heck of a lot quicker.
If guy read ballistic charts before they open their wallets a lot of new cartridges would never leave the factory. A little reading would reveal the .270, 7mm and .300 WSSMs to be nothing more than .270 Win, .280 Rem and .30-06 in different wrappers. I dare you to prove to me that you can shoot better in the field because they fit short actions. But people buy the hype before they buy the rifle. But it's all good because it's about being free to have fun in the flavor we choose. (BTW, the WSSM case when necked to .358 makes a potent round that fits Indiana's deer regs.)

It DOES get under my skin when a maker hypes a new round like .223 WSSM only to see throats vanish before the new owners eyes then stop making ammo leaving the guy stuck with the useless thing. But hey shooters, remember sayings like "if it sounds to good to be true it probably is" or "there is no such thing as free lunch"?

In terms of the creed it's a neat round but not really useful for most people. If someone's talking about shooting at distance yes but at least in northern IL that's a hard thing to come by in most cases. I know of a 600 yard range here and that's it. Lots of 25 yard indoor stuff and a few 1-200 yard ranges. May as well shoot .308 and save some dough. TBH I'm a huge fan of the 243 because it fits in an AR-10 nicely and I'm kind of recoil shy due to shoulder issues. Its biggest weakness is factory loadings are all hunting focused and almost nothing is match style/higher BC bullets.

The 350 Legend should have been a rimless 357 mag or max. Flat out. The idea they didn't make it shoot 35 rem or conventional revolver bullets is absurd and something that used a 357 mag/max case length would have been even better. I wouldn't be surprised to find out someone makes a version of it lightly modded that uses 357 bullets. I was trying to get a 357 Rimless mag barrel and just do that but the guy who had em on the net said he scrapped the tooling when I emailed him. Imagine how much of an equivalent it would be to a 32-20 then. The gun companies aren't afraid to make a long cylinder gun (they make one that shoots .410s ffs) why not make one that shoots this round?

The flavor of the week round I built was a 450 Bushmaster straight pull AR pistol. I had a very explicit reason for doing it and that's that I can throw a single shot sled in it and it's deer hunting legal as per the rules in IL. Figured I'd miff someone with that! Also it's a fun one to hand people much like a 460 or 500 is.

[Moonie]

The AR calibers I have are 22 Nosler, 300 BO and a new 50 Beowulf. My first was a 6.8 SPC. I do tend to go for cartridges that aren't the norm. I like the 357 Sig and I have a 400 Cor-Bon barrel for my 1911. I do miss that 6.8 SPC, sold it to get the 22 Nosler upper.

[tankgunner59]

I don't even have any AR platforms. I don't own anything "NEW", I'm like several others I like the old tried and true. If the time comes when I can afford a new gun it will be a 6.5 Creedmoor. After all I've heard and read about it I'd like to have one.

[waksupi]

Every chambering that is ever needed were all developed before 1920. Anything after that is gravy.

[drac0nic]

Every chambering that is ever needed were all developed before 1920. Anything after that is gravy.

I would go to 1940ish maybe 1945ish. I mean neither the 22-250 nor the 220 Swift were avaiable until the mid 30s Also the .357 magnum was invented in the mid 30s. You're still talking basically 75-80 years of largely limited ammunition innovation.

[Elroy]

We all have our personal favorites,and I have learned a long time ago that some folks get offended if you have anything negative to say about their favorites,so I will not be real specific,but I can not figure out how certain cartridges catch on like wildfire,and certain ones never got too popular.I understand that some have appeal because they will run in an AR ,but why do they catch on so fast in bolt guns? I have never had a 260 Rem,but have a couple of 7mm-08s,and neither has been very popular,but both make good sense.It also seems like the once beloved 243 is getting shoved to the side as well,in much the same way as it did the 250-3000..

[9mmskng]

The Classics will live FOREVER! The amount of game taken with these new, "gimmick" calibers, won't even come close to the amount taken with the PROVEN classics, 270win, '06, 243win, 308win, 30-30, etc..., that's a fact!

[rking22]

You know the 308 spawned a lot of other calibers, as did the 30-06. Wonder what you could do with a 6.5 creedmore case? Neck it up to 30, maybe down to 224, or make it non metric by necking it to .25! We could have a whole new batch of cartridges:)
What was old is new again !!!! ( probably should be purple font, I couldn’t resist)

[drac0nic]

It also seems like the once beloved 243 is getting shoved to the side as well,in much the same way as it did the 250-3000..

I am a biased person but I would be surprised on this. It's a super common round.

That said the bullet options for factory ammo could really use a makeover IMO especially in match type stuff. Virtually anything I've ever found for factory ammo has been hunting focused and usually with lower BC bullets that don't really take advantage of modern offerings. There are 103, 105 and 107gr bullets that are capable of being loaded into an LR-308 mag that aren't offered. Obviously you'd want a 1:8 twist barrel for that and I really think that's why it's not done. It also doesn't sell rifles.

[murf205]

Ive seen about every new round that came out called a flash in the pan. When the 357mag came out everyone said it would never last because it had to much recoil. Now we have 500 smiths. When the 270 came out everyone asked why buy something that underperforms an 06 in every category. 243 To light for big game to heavy for varmints. 3030 Way to small of a bullet to be effective. Who knows what will really be a flash in the pan or a legitimate long term round. ANYTHING new today is questionable because you can find something close to it that already exists. Long time ago I quit trying to justify guns I wanted. matter of fact if its a bit obscure I like it even more. Lots of us originaly came to this form and started casting because what we wanted wasn't available. Theres nothing in north America that cant be killed cleanly with an 06. So does that make any round that came after it just a flash?

Are they just a flash? Well LLoyd, maybe, maybe not, I am no AR Platform fan either and the first time I was exposed to it was the same as yours and I thought surely that no one in his right mind would ever consciously choose to hunt with one-but so much for my ability to predict! The new cartridges? I wish they were .358's and .458 instead of what they are and I would prefer they had a rim but they don't. The one thing that I do know is that they would never exist if the states they are designed to be used in, didn't have big deer and lots of them! I certainly hope that we get some glowing reports on their game performance since we are in the middle of hunting seasons across the country and it looks like the weather is cooperating.
Murf

[Geezer in NH]

New cartridges sell magazine's, and guns, for a while then the useless ones fade away.

In the last 30 years every piece of big game I have shot when hunting was with a flintlock rifle or fowler. Nothing in a suppository case.

New guns and cartridges are fine it is what floats your boat.

[rbuck351]

I'm not interested in any of the newer rounds or the AR rifles. The newest one I have is probably the 416 Rem only because I couldn't find a 416 Taylor that I could afford. Some of my favorites are 22H and KH, 25/20, 300H&H, 358Norma, 38spl and 45acp. I have around 25 other calibers that I shoot but these are the ones that I prefer. A 219 Savage in 22H and a 92 Win in 25/20 are my most fun rifles with a Colt Officers Model 38 Special and a Ballister Molina in 45acp my favorite handguns to shoot. Nothing wrong with new guns and cartridges but they just don't fill any voids for me.

[Lloyd Smale]

I know some of you don't like ar15s. Ive allways considered myself old school but am an ar15 fan and as old as that platform is anymore its old school itself. Its older then most of the posters here. I think something changed in the industry. When I was first into hunting new bolt action chamberings and wildcatting was the IN thing. Today its ar15s. Probably 90 percent of the new rounds that come out are ar15 and ar10 chamberings. Why? Because there probably the most popular rifle sold today. I remember back when I got my first ar15 and even my 3rd and 4th. I had no intention of hunting with them. What changed that is a varmint hunting trip to Wy to my sister and brother in law and he broke out a heavy barreled ar15 and I couldn't put it down. It put a smile on my face ear to ear. Today I hunt mostly with ar15s. I do crop damage shooting on the farm and for that many set ups call for a flatter shooting gun then what you can get out of an ar so I do use bolt guns still. But even for that purpose over the last couple years ar15s and 10s have snuck in the mix and probably one in three days sees me with an ar of some kind. But its not even arguable that the biggest change were seeing in the field today for hunting rifles is more and more Ars. 6.5 creedmore has become the 270 of ars and 308s? well there 308s and have been popular since the Korean war before I was even born. Nothing new here! So rbuck351 says new guns and rounds don't hold anything for him. The ar15 and ar10 have been around for 50 years and I guess should officially get the title of old school! If you like old just because its old that's cool but I have nothing against something that comes along that just plain works. Something I can buy ammo for cheap and loading gear for it everywhere and in a gun that I can buy for 500 bucks instead of some rare lever gun for 2k. Bottom line is I like old school but I still like buying a new gun on occasion or trying a different platform. ESPECIALLY when they work better then old school ever did. Ive got a nice old 300 H&H. Love the gun but I also have a 300 wby and a fancy new (even that is relatively old school now) 300 ultra mag. When I deer is standing out at 500 yards and I could choose the 300 H&H would be the last of the 3 id pick. Even though it has cool factor cool doesn't kill a bullet striking with enough power to do the job cleanly does. Same thing with one of my favorite rounds. The 250 sav and even the 257 roberts. Love both of them but when the deer are way out there im the first to admit theres better choices like my 2506 or 257 wby. So I like old school but not at the expense of choosing a weapon that is a handicap for what I want to do.

[1hole]

New cartridges sell magazine's, and guns, for a while then the useless ones fade away.

As one geezer to another, it may be an overstatement to say most new cartridges are "useless" but many are pointless overlaps; they're usually just odd cases that look "new" and therefore must seem "better" to those who chase after current fads.


New guns and cartridges are fine it is what floats your boat.

Roger that! Guns and ammo and reloading tool makers employ a lot of people who need money for homes and new shoes for the kids. For their sake I'm glad there are folk who race to get the newest version of anything but I'm not one of them.

Cartridges - There has never been a more effective or more versatile American whitetail cartridge than the pleasant shooting .257 Roberts, circa 1935. But few people today have seen one (or even know it ever existed).

The fine .243, 6mm Rem, .25-06, .260 Rem, 7-08, 6.5x55, 7x57, etc. are arguably "just as good" as the old Bob but none them are any better. I mean, dead deer, hogs, pronghorn, coyote and other varmints are as dead as they will ever be!

[dh2]

I will read up on the new ones but do not want to own a gun for them to soon, but it seems to me that they are always trying to re invent the wheel . I do have a few wildcats. but there is plenty of old rounds out there, like the 30-06 will never die but so many are trying to make some thig to replace it when it don't need replaced.

[Harter66]

It took my new cartridge most of 20 years to make it to the Lyman manual .

The most of the cartriges that we thrive on are 50+ now ....... Several very popular of late are getting close to 150 yr old . The 357 is 85 .....

I liked the WSM - WSSM concept , mostly the wrong calibers to entice me though . Not really new though , the 284 beat them to it .

[megasupermagnum]

The Classics will live FOREVER! The amount of game taken with these new, "gimmick" calibers, won't even come close to the amount taken with the PROVEN classics, 270win, '06, 243win, 308win, 30-30, etc..., that's a fact!

One in your list is a nice example of why the classics are not always better. The 243 Winchester is a fine cartridge, but introduced about the same time was the 6mm Remington. The 6mm Remington is a superior cartridge. It's not much faster, but it is faster. It also offers what is supposedly a better overall design, including a longer neck. Nowadays I would choose 243 win over 6mm rem every single time, even though I do own a Savage 110L in 6mm rem. If I were around in 1955 though, the 6mm rem was the better choice. Why 243 ever got popular is a genuine mystery. Some blame marketing, some blame a slower twist on the 6mm rem. Nobody really knows.

[country gent]

Megasupermagnum:
A big part was the marketing and intended use the people at Remington deemed the cartridge, hence the slower twist that didn't stabilize long heavy bullets. Winchester decided the 243 would be all around went with the 9 twist and the 243 would do all the rem would and the long heavier bullets. I have seen several 6 mm rems re barreled with 9 twist and they do perform and the linger neck does help bit with accuracy and adds some barrel life.

A lot buying rifles in the mid calibers 6 mm, 25, 6.5 mm 7 mm are looking for a do all rifle varmints, predators, deer, ect ect. The 17, 22, are more dedicated varmint calibers and the 30s up are dedicated big game

Look what the 22 and 6 mm PPCs did to Bench rest calibers And even into the big magnums ( THe wsm and wssms are based on the same theory of short fat cartridges). The Ackley Improved line was getting a start at this also

[rbuck351]

A handicap is what puts the fun in hunting. I hunt the early season with a bow and if I don't get one that way I just grab a rifle from the rack and go pop a deer for the freezer. I have never shot at a game animal past about 325 yds. The only reason for that long for me shot was about 300yds of water between me and a black bear I wanted. I am not a sniper and don't pretend to be but a 500yd shot on a deer with my 300H&H has a 34" drop from a 250yd zero with a 180gr Speer btsp. Shouldn't be a real problem unless the deer moves while breaking the trigger which is why I limit my shots to about 350yds. Even at 500yds my bullet would still exit a deer. Plenty of cartridge but I hunt and shoot for fun. Shooting long distance at game animals isn't my idea of fun.
I don't like the AR platform for a couple of reasons. They blow powder residue back into the bolt, they have a pistol grip, they require a very high scope mount because of the straight stock. With a scope mounted they are heavy, awkward and hard to carry. We used them at work (correctional center) and I was a range officer so I got to use one quite a bit. Don't like them.

[megasupermagnum]

Megasupermagnum:
A big part was the marketing and intended use the people at Remington deemed the cartridge, hence the slower twist that didn't stabilize long heavy bullets. Winchester decided the 243 would be all around went with the 9 twist and the 243 would do all the rem would and the long heavier bullets. I have seen several 6 mm rems re barreled with 9 twist and they do perform and the linger neck does help bit with accuracy and adds some barrel life.

A lot buying rifles in the mid calibers 6 mm, 25, 6.5 mm 7 mm are looking for a do all rifle varmints, predators, deer, ect ect. The 17, 22, are more dedicated varmint calibers and the 30s up are dedicated big game

Look what the 22 and 6 mm PPCs did to Bench rest calibers And even into the big magnums ( THe wsm and wssms are based on the same theory of short fat cartridges). The Ackley Improved line was getting a start at this also

Mine is a 10" twist, and shoots great with 100 grain bullets. While some disagree, I agree with your theory. For whatever strange reason, it seem what makes or breaks a cartridge in this country is it's ability to shoot white tailed deer. I find it odd that 30-30 stuck around rather than 30-40 Krag, especially when the similar sized 308 Winchester went on to be one of the most popular rifle cartridge of all time. 30-40 Krag was a big step up from 30-30 Winchester.

[ioon44]

Seems like a lot of the companies keep reinventing the wheel just to keep selling stuff.

[rking22]

Pretty good definition of “Marketing”, many people have to have the newest, fastest,most modern technological thingy that comes out. Oh, if it has a Cool name, invoking POWER or Precision or Modern it is a done deal. Matters not that it only approximates an existing cartridge, or more than one, as long as it fits in an AR mag.

[Bazoo]

Mine is a 10" twist, and shoots great with 100 grain bullets. While some disagree, I agree with your theory. For whatever strange reason, it seem what makes or breaks a cartridge in this country is it's ability to shoot white tailed deer. I find it odd that 30-30 stuck around rather than 30-40 Krag, especially when the similar sized 308 Winchester went on to be one of the most popular rifle cartridge of all time. 30-40 Krag was a big step up from 30-30 Winchester.

The 30-30 stuck because of the guns that chambered it. The winchester 94 primarily and marlin 93 are much handier to carry than a krag rifle. Okay so what about the winchester 95 you might ask? Well aside from it being not as compact as a winchester carbine, it also isn't as aesthetically pleasing, atleast to me. Not to mention 30-30 lever actions hold 8 rounds vs 5.

I would love a winchester 95 or a sporterized krag in 30-40, for the record.

[country gent]

By the time Remington changed to the 9 twist ( several years after introducing it) The reputation was set in minds. My 243 match rifle will run 115 grn vlds ( roughly 1 3/8" long ) out to 1000 yds. But it is a 7 twist rate.

The 30-30 and its rifles caught on so big and quickly due to the times and needs. When introduced in most of the areas a rifle wasn't just for hunting but defense. You had it with you everywhere you went. A strictly hunting rifle is a different thing than one carried 24 7. The lever guns were short light handy and off ample power. They were easily carried by horse back and buggy. They fit into what was needed. The big single shots and 8+ lb bolt actions were heavier longer than them and took more effort to carry.