Which Load to Hunt With

[mattd]

Found 2 great loads for my 35W using the 180g NOE with a cup point. 38g of H4895 and 22.5g of 2400. Both were about 1.25" at 50y, with a very slight edge going to 2400.

The CB handbook says a 190g CB with 22.5g of 2400 does 1815fps out of a 24" barrel. Mines 21", so it's probably going 1750fps+?

No data for 4895, but i'd bet it has a slight speed edge on the 2400.

The reason for the question is that I've had 2 misses with cast bullets, my hunch is because of the cold, both times in the teens. I could have hit a limb, or pulled it in the excitement, but it's only ever happened those 2 times (my furthest shot ever is 80y, next is probably 40y, and most are closer to 20-30), and i was confident on both shots.

So which load is more forgiving?

[willicd76]

I'm guessing at those distances even a velocity loss of 200-300 fps wouldn't account for a miss. I would look elsewhere for your issues....

[mattd]

I guess I wasn't thinking of the slow down affect of the cold making it hit low, more like an accuracy issue making each shot unpredictable. If that is what happened, then it could be the lube as well. Which is red lable 50/50.

[rking22]

I agree that it is unlikely a good load would go THAT bad at 40 yards. As a test, throw 5 of each in the freezer overnight( or get some dry ice at Kroger for mo cold) and shoot a group with each. I suspect little difference, but real data is a confidence builder. I had a 243 No1 that put 5 in an inch at 100 in the summer. That load (760 under 100 nosler) would open to 2 1/4 inches in 35deg weather. A fluke??? Who knows, but I still got a particular can of w760 :). Didn’t like the grouping but was still 100% on deer.

[white eagle]

I see no forgiveness in a load
a miss is a miss usually the cause is the hunter
my son uses 2400 in his 35w and we have crono'd
his load at a tad over 1500 fps but he uses a 260 gr boolit
I would use the one with the most accuracy and the
one you have the most confidence in going into the hunt

[dverna]

You need to understand why you missed.

Others who hunt with cast will provide guidance, but at the ranges you described I doubt it is a load problem. Cast performance is not adequate for the kind of hunting I do so I use jacketed bullets. At less than 100 yards, cast should do well.

[mattd]

Others who hunt with cast will provide guidance, but at the ranges you described I doubt it is a load problem.

I chimed in here the first time it happened a few years ago, and another MO hunter said he experienced the same thing, he blamed the lube. It was the coldest opening day in a long time for MO.

Just loaded some up with 2400 and 22.5-23.5g isn't very much powder. Being in a tree pointing down could be a problem. Although it seems shotgun powder always seems consistent with light charges. A feather in the cap for 4895.

[megasupermagnum]

You probably are not giving up much speed with a 21" vs 24" barrel. I bet it's less than 25 fps. I also do not think 38gr of 4895 is much faster, if at all. If both shot the same, I'd go with 2400.

As for the missing. It takes quite a bit for a bullet to veer off that far at 40 yards. Maybe if you had a smooth bore and the bullet tumbled. I never did try 50/50 lube, I only handled it long enough to know I did not want any part of it. You could try a better lube. Canaruba Red is not particularly great in cold, but I tried it in far colder weather than that. Cold bore shots could be off a couple inches at 100 yards, not enough to miss a deer. As far as I was told, BAC and Randy Rat's TAC1 are the best commercial lubes designed for cold. I switched to TAC1, and so far it is shooting well. I went shooting yesterday, and it was a nice 22 degrees out. The handgun cold bore shot landed right in the middle of the group as it should.

[Geezer in NH]

35w???

[mattd]

Ha! It was Carnuba red that I had problems with the first time.

But I mixed that half and half w 50/50. So I was mistaken, am not using 50/50. Using it mixed w C red.

[megasupermagnum]

Its not your lube causing problems

[Smoke4320]

Like others here doubt its a lube issue given those yardages

[ChristopherO]

It could be a 35 Whelen or Winchester. Either way it is a moot point because with cast they are pretty much identical with normal loadings, like the OP is stating.

I doubt it was the lube or the bullet that failed to hit the deer. Not saying this to poke a thorn in a sore spot, I've missed when I could have sworn it was a hit. These things happen and it is probably a coincidence that it happened both times with a cast boolet. Before jacketed bullets were ever thought up cast boolits killed millions of men and animals for many, many years. A sobering thought, isn't it?

[Hickory]

35w???

Some people use abbreviations so much, it's hard to figure out what they are trying to say.
This one is not that bad.
However, I feel that if a person really wanted you to know what they are trying to say, they would take a few extra seconds to write it all the way out.

Normally I won't take the time to read a post with a bunch of abbreviations in it!
What is a 35w anyway?

[sharps4590]

I'm with ChristopherO on this one. Could be either but it doesn't really matter.

I've hunted Missouri most of my adult life...juvenile too for that matter and, in some pretty cold winters over the last 53 years of deer hunting. In the last 25 years all I've hunted with is cast bullets and with smokeless powder, Lyman's lube. I've never had any difficulties with it. As with others...I doubt it's the load, bullet or the lube.

[mattd]

35 Whelen.

I'm not above accepting that i just plain missed. So, taking that part away, what load would you hunt with?

[Hickory]

I generally make my hunting loads 2 grains under maximum. With accuracy at the for front of my mind.
If I don't think that is sufficient power, I'll get a bigger gun with bigger bullets and higher velocities, but, still loaded 2 grains under maximum.
It seems to be a winning formula for me.
99.5% of my shooting is plinking and you really don't need maximum loads for that.

[megasupermagnum]

I generally make my hunting loads 2 grains under maximum. With accuracy at the for front of my mind.
If I don't think that is sufficient power, I'll get a bigger gun with bigger bullets and higher velocities, but, still loaded 2 grains under maximum.
It seems to be a winning formula for me.
99.5% of my shooting is plinking and you really don't need maximum loads for that.

2 grains under maximum what? Pressure? I could see it for handguns, but you aren't running too many rifle cartridges to maximum pressure and still getting accuracy from a cast bullet.

[Cary Gunn]

Howdy mattd,

First of all, are you sure you missed?

My best guess is that you didn't.

Many, if not most, mortally hit deer run 35 to 150 yards before collapsing. Sometimes they do so with little, if any, initial outward sign of being hit. And in much of today's thick, brushy whitetail cover, a deer lying dead 100 yards from the point of bullet impact can be damned difficult to locate.

From the standpoint of statistical probability alone, I believe it unlikely that a hunter/load combination capable of consistently producing bullet groups of one-and-a-half inches at 50 yards would TWICE miss a target as large as a deer at the ranges you mention.

Yes, there really are such awful things as "buck fever" and simple flinching, but only the dumbest of hunters would be unlikely to recall them happening.

Thus, I ask again, are you sure you missed?

Happy trails,

-- Cary Gunn --

[mattd]

First time was a few years ago with a NOE 311299HP. Doe at 35y, shot, no reaction and ran off. They worked their way back to my position. Got her that time with only the second hole in her.

Second time was last year w this rifle, the wehlen. I didn’t have it grouping that well last year, which is why I was still searching this year. But still 2-2.5” at 50y. The deer was at 45y. Light snow on the ground and I followed his tracks for over 200y. No blood, no deer. Great buck.

Coulda pulled it? Buck fever etc? Or maybe it wasn’t the cold and the load was just position sensitive. I believe it was varget in both cases. At the speeds I was shooting them it wouldn’t have filled the case. And the downward angle from 17’ up and shooting at a close target.

This might be another reason why one load is more field friendly versus bench shooting friendly.

[RU shooter]

Both loads your using might be helped by using a tuft of Dacron to help position the powder . The 38 gr. of 4895 with a touch of Dacron is what I would use I use the same load in my 35 Rem with 190-200 gr cast bullets without the Dacron but it's a casefull already so no need . Or keep upping the load and see how she shoots. I am in agreement with others though at that close range even poor grouping load would have drew blood or at least left some hair on the ground.

[megasupermagnum]

Larry Gibson does not use filler with handgun powders like 2400. He does with rifle powders like 4895. Being as accuracy is the same, 2400 is the easy answer.

[curioushooter]

If I were to use 35 Whelen for something I'd aim for a 200 grain or so cast boolit with in 91-6-3 pb-sn-sb alloy going around 2000 FPS if possible. That should be easily achievable with 2400 with good accuracy.

My 357 Mag carbine launches 184 grain bullets at 1700 FPS and they expand quite well. Another couple hundred of feet per second would keep the bullet at impact well above the 1400 FPS minimum velocity threshold where reasonably hard 35 caliber boolits stop expanding without a hollowpoint. At speeds much above 1400 FPS a hollowpoint can shear off and cause fragmentation.

[mattd]

Went to the farm and the target was still up so I put a tape to it. Did a bit better then I thought. The 4 I’m measuring is the 2400. The other 4 are the 4895. All at 50y.

250842

Tried a few diff loadings w 2400. 23.5gr had a 3 shot cloverleaf, a fourth an inch away, proly me. That should be well into 1800fps and accurate! I tipped the muzzle down and never brought it back vertical before firing to keep the powder off the primer to simulate a worse case in a tree stand. Didn’t appear to cause an issue. Gotta love shotgun powder!

Recovered one from the wet and rotten pine logs. It started as a 185gr cup point and ended as 174gr mushroom. 50/50 WD.

250844

Feeling confident. Thanks guys!

[Edward]

Larry Gibson does not use filler with handgun powders like 2400. He does with rifle powders like 4895. Being as accuracy is the same, 2400 is the easy answer.

I have used for years dacron with 2400 powder in every case 30-30 up to 45-70 because of improvements in accuracy/S.D. based on Larry"s recommending it "s use . You can find a lot of referrals on the search engine at top right side of this site concerning dacron and Mr Gibsons use /recomendations (he wrote the book on dacron and use)Ed

[Screwbolts]

Good shooting and your loads look readyto harvest game.

It is my understanding that 2400 powder was developed for the newly developed at the time hot rod 22 Hornet cartridge. 2400 allowed the Hornet to achieve 2400 FPS. Yes 2400 has shoot gun applications also, but is a powder that was developed for small rifle cartridges.

aim small, hit small

Ken