Winchester M1917 Sight Questions

[mew]

I put this post on the wrong board initially.

Finally found and picked up a Winchester M1917. Its in great shape and shoots wonderfully. Almost scary accurate given its age. So here is some background on the sight questions. I understand how to use the ladder sight/battle sight and I don't believe that is the issue here. But, in order for it to hit Point of Aim at either 50 or 100 yards I have to set the rear ladder sight on the 400 yard setting. With the rear ladder sight set at 200 it will print 8-10 inches low at 50! That's definitely not right and of course it would be almost twice that at 100. I know there are multiple different front sight blades but in this case, the lowest one wouldn't get close. I have also read that the P14 front sight base has a different height but don't know if its taller or shorter. The P14 front sight base also has a slightly larger ring to go around the barrel but my reading says they have been found on M1917s. OK ... here comes the questions:

1) Am I missing something? I don't believe the rear sight is the issue.
2) Is it possible that I have a P14 front sight base and it is taller than the M1917?
3) With the proper sight/sight blade how should the M1917 print at 200 yards? Is it POA/POI or should it be X inches high?

A little more info on the rifle. Its a Winchester built in Aug 1918. Barrel appears to be original and markings point to that. Bore is awesome with sharp rifling and pretty bright. With the sight set at 400 I was able to shoot a 5 round 1 1/2 group at 100 yards with my load using a 168 Gr Hornady Match bullet and IMR 4895. Except for 4 parts, everything is Winchester. Yes, the front sight base and blade are also marked W.

Any suggestions??

[Outpost75]

Front sight blades for both the British Pattern 14 and the US 1917 come in eleven different heights, ranging from 0.985 to 1.135 inches above the centerline of the bore in .015 increments. The "0" marked front sight would be the second lowest and should measure an even inch above bore centerline if the sight has not been filed. Changing the height of front sight by one increment of .015 inch changes the point of impact 1 mil, about 3.9 inches at 100 yards or about 11 inches at 300 yards firing M1906 150-grain Ball ammunition.

[mew]

Thank you Outpost75. With this info, I know I have to drop roughly .060 to get it to shoot using the 200 yard setting. The sight is marked .075. I need one in the .015 range. If those are available. Otherwise, a file and some careful time on the range ....

[Bad Ass Wallace]

My Winchester M17 is set up with an 0.015 to give me a point of impact approx 1.5" high at 100yds and at 200yards. Flip up the battle sight also gives POA at 300yards.

https://i.imgur.com/Lkp2rnA.png

[Outpost75]

If you can find a front sight for a No. 4 rifle in .303, I think that they "might" have the same dovetail dimensions. If you want to PM me with your mailing address I could see which sights I have in duplicate. If I have one close to what you need, I'd pop it into an envelope for you. If it doesn't fit, at least then we will both know and can then inform the peanut gallery so all may benefit.

Fair enough?

[mew]

My math says I need a .015. I am on the hunt! Nice rifles. I'll have to post a picture of mine.

[mew]

Hey Wallace,

Any idea of a source for the sight blades that have them by dimension?

[Larry Gibson]

You might also check the barrel bedding. Pull the hand guard and barrel bands off. Many times they are holding the barrel down. It's hard to believe how much a little pressure either up, down or sideways can change the point of impact. The a barrel are easier to bend slightly than most think. If the barrel "springs" up when the hand guard and bands are removed that could be the problem. If not then another front sight blade might be in order as mentioned. Or simply filing a bit off the existing front sight can solve the problem of hitting low.

[Outpost75]

Hey Wallace,

Any idea of a source for the sight blades that have them by dimension?

Sent you a PM. I have excess front sight blades for the No. 4 .303 rifle, I am told they are the same, but can't confirm this. I'll send you a couple to try. If one works for you, great. Just PIF to somebody for the other and please confirm here on the forum that they indeed fit. This will benefit many others by adding to the category of recovered knowledge if true.

[georgerkahn]

I do not know if this helps -- I do hope it will -- that the folks at Old Guns have a "1917 Parts Service" where they offer swapping of most all 1917 parts. Their URL is http://oldguns.net/catacc.htm . Perhaps John or Mark may have the sight you need. Good luck!
geo

[Gunor]

1917 front sight pin - anyone know the diameter?

[samari46]

Went through this with my long Branch 303 sporter. All the upright blades are all the same height. It's the section below the upright blade that's different. That section is what helps make the total height of the front sight insert/blades. The ones for any British or Canadian #4 rifle should fit your Winchester Model of 1917. And my L.B. sporter has the issue rear sight but the barrel was cut back to 22" and a Parker Hale ramp front sight that takes the #4 sight inserts. Probably one of the many Parker Hale sporters made up after WWII. Frank

[StratsMan]

You might also check the barrel bedding. Pull the hand guard and barrel bands off. Many times they are holding the barrel down. It's hard to believe how much a little pressure either up, down or sideways can change the point of impact. The a barrel are easier to bend slightly than most think. If the barrel "springs" up when the hand guard and bands are removed that could be the problem. If not then another front sight blade might be in order as mentioned. Or simply filing a bit off the existing front sight can solve the problem of hitting low.

I agree with this test before changing parts. I had a 1917 that would not shoot. Loosened the front band, and found the stock had changed shape slightly over time and was pushing up against the bottom of the barrel. Light touch on the stock with a round file to relieve the pressure and it shot like a champ.

[Tripplebeards]

I just restored one myself (Winchester) and had to make a homemade front sight pusher to get it dialed in. If I flip up my rear sight and have my Peep slid all the way down I hit dead center at 100 yards. Here’s a target of a 100 yard three shot group with j words all on the same hole about 4 to 5 inches high. It was the second time out with this gun shooting it. I had my rear peep my rear peep slid a couple marks up. My battle peep hits higher, closer to 8” plus high at 100 yards if I remember.

https://i.imgur.com/5xH00ew.jpg

My homemade sight pusher along with the photo with my front sight I had turned around backwards. It’s now been turned around correctly.

https://i.imgur.com/GPlwk1v.jpg

100 yard target with my rear sight flipped up and peep slid all the way down after I pushed the front sight a little to the left. Yes, I got lucky because mines about his dead center as it gets. My load was using 150 grain seirra game kings a a little under max loading with h4350 if I remember.

https://i.imgur.com/JXQB7aW.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/fdKSJUn.jpg

My first couple of 100 yard groups I shot while sighting it in to figure out where it was hitting with my rear sight flipped up and peep slid all the way down...


https://i.imgur.com/QDfM9Or.jpg

And a repo rock island sling I picked up for it fir around $35. I oxidized the brass with salt and vinegar fumes and darkened the leather with virgin olive oil.

https://i.imgur.com/ooCjpnu.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/0pmvZKJ.jpg


My gun is all original accept for the stock as it was broke and replaced with a sported stock so I had to find a Winchester replacement. I have some close-ups of my front sight so you can see if yours look similar to mine.

I watched enough YouTube videos with shooters who flipped up the rear sight with the peep slid all the way down was pretty much dead on at 100 yards for them as well. I wonder if your front and or rear site has been replaced?

[Adam Helmer]

mew,

Where does your rifle print with the battle sight at 100 yards? I bet the high front sight was to zero the battle sight, which normally hits high at 100 yards.

Adam

[Tripplebeards]

The battle peep site was zeroed at 300 yards or so from what I read and researched. Alot of the videos I watched using the flip up rear rear sight with the smaller adjustable peep slid all the way down was very close to or right on zero like mine is at 100 yards. If I wouldn’t of been watching YouTube videos I’d been pulling my hair out wondering why I was shooting almost a foot high at 100 yards with my battle peep.

[Adam Helmer]

The battle peep site was zeroed at 300 yards or so from what I read and researched. Alot of the videos I watched using the flip up rear rear sight with the smaller adjustable peep slid all the way down was very close to or right on zero like mine is at 100 yards. If I wouldn’t of been watching YouTube videos I’d been pulling my hair out wondering why I was shooting almost a foot high at 100 yards with my battle peep.

Tripplebeards,

Yes, the battle sight was set for about 300 yards which translates to about a foot high at 100 yards. Since not many hunters trek about the woods with the ladder sight UP, they use the battle sight for jumped deer, etc. My P17E hits Point of Aim/Point of impact with 150 grain J loads, or Ball, at 100 yards. My P17R and W hits a foot high with the battle sight with ball or 150 J loads. Hence, I hunt with my P-17E.

Adam

[mew]

My research says the Battle Sight for the M1917 is 450 yards.

Adam, with the rear sight set at 400 I am POA/POI at 200. Sitting at the bench and flipping the sight down to expose the battle sight showed almost no difference (and it wouldn't since the battle sight is 450 yards.

I have done the math and measurements based on what OutPost stated (and I later found in one of the M1917 manuals) and believe the issue is in the front sight blade currently installed. Its a .075. It was probably installed during the last trip through maintenance and never check fired for accuracy. My math says I need a .015.

[Tripplebeards]

Tripplebeards,

Yes, the battle sight was set for about 300 yards which translates to about a foot high at 100 yards. Since not many hunters trek about the woods with the ladder sight UP, they use the battle sight for jumped deer, etc. My P17E hits Point of Aim/Point of impact with 150 grain J loads, or Ball, at 100 yards. My P17R and W hits a foot high with the battle sight with ball or 150 J loads. Hence, I hunt with my P-17E.

Adam


Makes sense. I’m a tree stand hunter so if I ever use it for hunting my sight will stay flipped up. I can see that sight easily been pushed down catching on a piece of brush if I were stalking or walking around.

[reivertom]

Front sight blades for both the British Pattern 14 and the US 1917 come in eleven different heights, ranging from 0.985 to 1.135 inches above the centerline of the bore in .015 increments. The "0" marked front sight would be the second lowest and should measure an even inch above bore centerline if the sight has not been filed. Changing the height of front sight by one increment of .015 inch changes the point of impact 1 mil, about 3.9 inches at 100 yards or about 11 inches at 300 yards firing M1906 150-grain Ball ammunition.
Dude! You da man! Great things to know! I have a Winchester and it shoots a little off, too. Now I know what to do!

[Tripplebeards]

I know this is an old post but hoping I will get some help with the correct size for my front sight replacement to get my POA lowered 8”. As outpost stated every .15” of adjustment raises or drops POA approx 3.9”. That means I need a front sight .3” higher then my factory W stamped sight. There is no number marked on my front sight only a W. Does someone know what front sight blade height I need to zero my POA with my battle peep? I’m hitting 8” high right now at 100 yards. Thanks.

[ndnchf]

I'm interested in this too. My M1917 hits a good 10" high at 100 yards. I had no idea that different front sights were available. I just looked at the front sight on mine, it is marked "R". Is there a chart somewhere showing what all the front sight markings equate to?

[Tripplebeards]

If I remember I think there might be a number on the inside base of my blade when I pushed it out. Probably telling me what height it’s is. I’ll wait till someone chimes in. I’m sure by changing the height of the front sight the ladder peep calculations will be way out of POA vs the markings on it.

[ndnchf]

I just looked at mine again. There is a R on the right side of the sight itself and another R on the left side of the sight base. My M1917 is made by Remington. So maybe these R marks simply identify it as being made by Remington. I can see no numbers.

[Tripplebeards]

Yep, mine is marked W for Winchester. I'm guessing we will have to measure the leaf/blade and go off the measurement? It would be better to replace the blade than aiming below the heart of a deer and blowing out the backbone at close range. Going to guess I need 2 sizes taller if they hit approx 4" higher with each .15" taller blade. I claimed a couple off PIF a couple years ago but believe they are the same height or shorter. I'll have measure.

[ndnchf]

While imprecise, I laid a caliper across the bore at centerline and eyeballed the sight height. It is about 1.000" even.

[Tripplebeards]

I believe the leaf that presses in is what you want to measure?

[ndnchf]

I measured to the top of the sight blade.

[Tripplebeards]

I just went to a seller on ebay who offers various sizes and asked which sight I would need to raise up from my factory blade to .3". I'll keep you posted. They are $15.to $18. Ea

[fjruple]

Front sight blades for both the British Pattern 14 and the US 1917 come in eleven different heights, ranging from 0.985 to 1.135 inches above the centerline of the bore in .015 increments. The "0" marked front sight would be the second lowest and should measure an even inch above bore centerline if the sight has not been filed. Changing the height of front sight by one increment of .015 inch changes the point of impact 1 mil, about 3.9 inches at 100 yards or about 11 inches at 300 yards firing M1906 150-grain Ball ammunition.

On the spot info Outpost 75-- I would to add that many of the M1917s went through the rebuild programs and in some cases little attention was given to the differences in elevation of the front sight blade. In other words a front sight blade is a front sight blade put to on and if it hits the target you are good to go! Pattern 1914 .303 blades are identical in heights except they are marked '14. M1917 are not marked except for the blade height and manufacturer. also bear in mind that some of the lower and higher end front sight blade heights were only available at the armory level maintenance and are in the realm of looking for live dinosaur eggs.

SMLE NOT No.4 Lee-Enfield blades will also fit but at a different heights.
There were nine different SMLE front sights available and were marked on top of their base with their sizes. They were: .090, .075, .060, .045, .030, .015, .0, -.015 and -.030.

If used the following heights are achieved.

-.030 = .030
-.015 = .045
.0 = .060
.015 = .075
.030 = .090
.045 = .105
.060 = .120
.075 = .135
.090 = .150

If these SMLE front sight blades do not work then you can do what the Danes did and take off the blade and drill the front sight blade base for a tension pin and file down to your specs.

[Tripplebeards]

Thanks for the info. I never heard back from the ebay seller. I’m having second thoughts now about changing mine out because I don’t want to keep pushing my original blade in and out. I’m afraid it will get to the point it will be extremely loose and need to be replaced. I also don’t want to try and press in another that might be a hair longer and hog out where it slides into. Maybe I’ll wake up tomorrow and change my mind. But since the ladder peep hits dead nuts at 100 yards slid all the way down with my 150 grain jacketed reloads I think I will leave it be for now. I don’t mind hunting with it flipped up. I’ll just have to aware of it and careful not to let it get folded down from brush. I sit in a tree stand and blinds so the odds of it getting bumped is slim to none. If both peeps were off I’d mess with it.

[ndnchf]

Great info, thanks guys.

[samari46]

If you are using the issue rear sight with the issue front sight Pacific which is now long gone used to make a sporting rear sight that fit into the dovetail on the issue rear sight where the spring went. Plus had two holes to be D&T'd on the right hand side of the receiver. Cannot remember if you had to remove part of the ear also on the right hand side. These sight show up usually on the web site auction house's. What we should do is compile a list of dealers that specialize in the older iron sights and which sight can be used on what firearms, and make it a sticky. I had the back side facing the receiver surface ground so it will fit the right hand side of a 1895 Winchester. Frank