50 or 54 slow twist barrel?

[brewer12345]

I have a TC Hawken in .50 cal. The stock barrel is the usual 1:48 twist QLA. It shoots maxi balls and every other conical I have tried very well. With 100 grains of powder, it is cloverleaf at 50 yards territory. That is fine for hunting, but with a curved metal buttstock it isn't much fun to shoot. With round ball, I get a pattern rather than a group. Tried all kinds of things, but that just seems to be the way this barrel is.

I am thinking about buying a Green Mountain 1:66 barrel to get a good round ball barrel. It looks like Track of the Wolf has drop in 15/16" barrels that will fit my rifle in both .50 and .54. Any particular reason to favor one or the other? My TC Grey Hawk in .54 shoots round ball well at high charges and I used it to whack a doe this year, but the groups open up a fair bit at target charges.

[rfd]

assess yer requirements for the gun and take it from there.

whether i hunt with it or not, i always prefer the 54 for a muzzle loader. i only use flintlocks and a 66" twist, with a patched ball.

[LAGS]

What is the Twist on your Grey Hawk ?
I prefer .50 cal. In 1:66 for RB
But .54 is more power for hunting.
That is why I had my .56 Smooth Bore Re-bored to .61 in 1:66

[brewer12345]

What is the Twist on your Grey Hawk ?
I prefer .50 cal. In 1:66 for RB
But .54 is more power for hunting.
That is why I had my .56 Smooth Bore Re-bored to .61 in 1:66

1:48 in the Grey Hawk, but non-QLA. It likes conicals and balls, but always with heavy charges. I am interested in a round ball barrel for the hawken in part because I want something that might shoot balls accurately with a less punishing charge. Not sure the recoil difference is worth worrying about between 50 and 54.

[indian joe]

Lags has got it best.
Green mountain RB barrels seem to need a decent charge to get best accuracy - a 54 with a decent charge can stop bein fun after 20 or so shots - if ya only gonna plink and shoot paper go for the 50 - cheaper to shoot, 20 grains less powder - (way more variety of components available off the shelf too)

[brewer12345]

Truthfully, I don't much care about the lack of 54 components. I bought an original TC maxi ball 54 mold off ebay, I already cast balls and REALs in the caliber, and it looks like I can get the rest of it easily online. The lower powder charge and recoil sounds like more of a big deal.

50 RB is plenty for deer, correct?

[Buzzard II]

Truthfully, I don't much care about the lack of 54 components. I bought an original TC maxi ball 54 mold off ebay, I already cast balls and REALs in the caliber, and it looks like I can get the rest of it easily online. The lower powder charge and recoil sounds like more of a big deal.

50 RB is plenty for deer, correct?


.54 cal. items are available from just about everyone, just look around. .50 cal. PRB is fine for hunting. You don't say which powder brand and grade you are using. 100 gr with a PRB seems like a lot. I would try 60 gr. of 3F or 2F to start shooting a PRB and work up 5 gr at a time. Olde Ensford (sp?)powder is good priced. Powder Inc. does mail order. Naturally only use pure lead, 5-6 BHN. Check to see how your fired patches are. You want them to look like you can use them again. No tears or burned through spots. If all else fails you may want to contact Bob Hoyt 717-642-6696 any get your barrel lined and loose the QLA, sometimes they don't work so well. A reline will be less than a GM barrel. Good shooting.
Bob

[brewer12345]

I imagine I could have the existing barrel bored out, but it shoots the maxis so well that I don't want to mess with it. Clover leaf at 50 yards is great. Since I live where elk are on the menu, conicals are always going to be of interest.

[LAGS]

Find yourself a used TC barrel that is in Poor to fair condition.
Then have that one sent off to be Re Bored to what you want.
I am sure you can find one , or even a complete Rifle at a very reasonable cost.
If you don't like the Hawkins with the curved butt plate , then look for a used Renagade like I did with a flat butt so you can install a recoil pad if you want to lessen the punishment.

[rfd]

a .54 will work just fine with most any black powder charge under a proper patched ball resistance. i only load 3f and with charges as low as 30 grains for close targets and 100 grains for distance, or knock-down power. for the most part, 70 grains of swiss 3f under a 225 grain patched .530 ball will kill just about anything on this continent and won't bruise yer shoulder nor rattle yer teeth. a .54 rifle with a slow 66" twist is a fine all-around gun ... better yet if it's a trad flinter. ;)

https://i.imgur.com/OJylbBB.jpg

[brewer12345]

Beautiful.

[LAGS]

There is a market for rifles like yours.
Screw holes can be filled.

[shortlegs]

One of my shooting buds has a lyman 54 that he regularly shoots at a 12" target at 200yds. Patched round ball over 70 gr 3f. Impact at 200 is impressive. Has me reevaluating my heavy recoiling loads.

[brewer12345]

One of my shooting buds has a lyman 54 that he regularly shoots at a 12" target at 200yds. Patched round ball over 70 gr 3f. Impact at 200 is impressive. Has me reevaluating my heavy recoiling loads.

The doe I shot at 50 yards with a 54 ball a few weeks ago made me a believer in round ball. Won't bother with heavy conicals for deer unless the rifle insists.

[Good Cheer]

Is seating round ball through the QLA tearing the patches?
Had that problem on a .54 New Englander because the bottom of that QLA counterbore was a flat sharp entry into the rifling.
When the guys in the TC shop told me it was by design I went into slack jawed disbelieve for a couple of seconds until it sunk in.
That problem got cured. Now it shoots soft lead finger lubed 45-70 boolits as they drop out of the molds.

Hey, if you were to go with reboring, ever looked at the ballistics and trajectory tables for .50 versus .54 caliber? I did years ago and unless Lymans was all wet it looked like the sweet spot was in between .50 and .54. Been thinking about it ever since bumping into a .515 round ball mold. I got it to use tight patched round ball in a fast twist .52 (I'm gonna but finding time for fun sure seems to be more difficult with each passing year).

[drago9900]

You should try light charges with round ball like 50 or 60 grains with the fast twist 1 in 48

[brewer12345]

I have tried everything with the hawken. I am throwing in the towel on round ball and moving on.

[megasupermagnum]

I too have yet to have a TC 1:48 twist shoot a PRB well. Oddly the best shooter is my TC scout pistol, and I believe it may have a 1:20" twist:confused:

I settled on conical in the renegade, I'll probably end up selling the new Englander eventually, and my new flintlock renegade I'm seriously considering sending to Bob Hoyt to freshen the rifling AKA deepen. I have no idea why, but it seems to me the shallow rifling is far more a detriment to a PRB than the twist is. If the 1:48 twist limits me to 60 grains of powder, great. I just want it to shoot good at any speed for starters.

As for caliber, 54 caliber is the way to go with round ball. Nothing wrong with 50, but if you have the choice, 54 offers more.

[Geezer in NH]

I vote .54 over .50 every day no matter what it is for target or hunting.

[sghart3578]

When I first got into blackpowder I started with a TC Hawken like most guys. It was a .50 cal because I loved the movie "Jeremiah Johnson".

But my accuracy was poor with everything that I tried. I then decided to try a replacement barrel with a slow twist.

I bought one and the seller sent me a .54 cal by mistake. After I tried it I sold all of my .50 cal stuff.

I now have two, a percussion in the Hawken style and a flintlock Pedersoli Frontier.

Love the .54.


Steve in N CA

[OverMax]

Just my thoughts on the subject.
If wanting to reduce recoil my advice is to restock the barrels with Renegade stocks then mount a slip-on recoil pad. Only because the Renegade stock seems to have a shorter than usual feel to many shooters the Pad will indeed increase the stocks overall lenght which enhances sight-plane and no doubt felt reduction in recoil. (a welcomed two~fer.)

Distance from deer with OE requires the shooter to know his rifles limits and his as well.
What many black-powder hunters fail to recognize. "What they tote is antiquated. Not a Rail gun."

If requiring some others experiences in what he/she needs to do afield to garner a successful hunt. Ask a successful bow hunter and follow his advice how he enhances his chances across the board in his taking deer with a antiquated tool.

As far as bullets and ball on deer size game. Most older shooters toting side hammer rifles usually go full cycle. Shooting ball then bullets and seeing little difference they return to patched ball and stay put. Those who are believes "never~ever patch ball" In time such shooters will likely turn to inline.
As far as my experiences.
I hunt my deer with a Hawken 45 cal and patched ball. Although this rifle has a factory {cheater} Rd Ball Only scroll. Such barrels do tighten groupings but not all that much when comparing a 1-48 to a 1-66 and both projectiles use.
When it comes to larger game (bear) My 54 cal Renegade w/1-48 and a heavy charge gets the job done probably because the rifle is a dedicated shooter of Maxi Ball only.
Keep in mind a larger bore doesn't always increase you're luck.
Although your hunting/practical knowledge and sharp aim will indeed bring about a successful hunt time after time.

[725]

Way back here was a question if a .50 RB is OK for deer. Oh my, yes. Much of this thread is which is better, Chevy or Ford, stuff. They all work. Your preference is the issue. For me, I have had success with both conical & RB. I really like the .54 RB best. Hoyt has made me a few .54 RB'er's and even a .60 RB'er. Wonderful what that man can do. One thing, though, newly cut barrels can frequently have sharp rifling and thus cut patches. Regular shooting or some lapping takes care of that. Get whatever strikes your fancy and have fun with it.

[indian joe]

I too have yet to have a TC 1:48 twist shoot a PRB well. Oddly the best shooter is my TC scout pistol, and I believe it may have a 1:20" twist:confused:

I settled on conical in the renegade, I'll probably end up selling the new Englander eventually, and my new flintlock renegade I'm seriously considering sending to Bob Hoyt to freshen the rifling AKA deepen. I have no idea why, but it seems to me the shallow rifling is far more a detriment to a PRB than the twist is. If the 1:48 twist limits me to 60 grains of powder, great. I just want it to shoot good at any speed for starters.

As for caliber, 54 caliber is the way to go with round ball. Nothing wrong with 50, but if you have the choice, 54 offers more.

Your choice and you will get a lot of encouragement from blokes here - but - the benefits of deep rifling for shooting patched round ball is utter baloney. Another well entrenched blackpowder myth. Plenty of barrel makers fell for it too.

[indian joe]

I vote .54 over .50 every day no matter what it is for target or hunting.

Got me a 6.5 pound CVA 54 that I use 100grains of FF in - might maybe change yr mind aboot that 54 fr targets idea.:D
Man its fun on the line tho ---ffft - ffft --pop ----KABOOM!! - what the heck wazat????? gits em every time ...................

[charlie b]

I have tried everything with the hawken. I am throwing in the towel on round ball and moving on.

I know it might not be good for hunting but did you try less powder? I have a Lyman GPH with fast twist and it will shoot PRB, but, only with light loads. Anything above 40gn of powder and the groups become paper plate size (it is a 1/32 twist). I'd start with 40gn and see if the groups get any better, then up a bit more until they blow apart.

If that fails then either a new barrel or slugs, like a REAL, Maxi, or Lyman Plains bullets.

[megasupermagnum]

Your choice and you will get a lot of encouragement from blokes here - but - the benefits of deep rifling for shooting patched round ball is utter baloney. Another well entrenched blackpowder myth. Plenty of barrel makers fell for it too.

Then why don't Thompson Center barrels shoot a patched round ball well? By well, I mean as good or better than conicals. I realize my example of 3 guns is small, but all three are marginal with a PRB. I tried smaller with thick patches, larger with thin patches, all kinds of wadding, FFg and FFFg powder from 30 to 120 grains. After an entire summer of working with a single TC Renegade, I got it to where I could count on 5"-6" at 100 yards. Many, many loads were far worse. From what I read, a good smoothbore can shoot 3" at 50 yards! I can count on any of my smooth bore shotgun cartridge guns to shoot 4" at 50 yards with a round ball.

If it were the twist rate, wouldn't you expect lower charges to shoot better? In actual practice, I could tell very little difference in accuracy with any powder charge. 30-40 grains was often the LEAST accurate. I tried pure lead, 40/1 alloy, 20/1 alloy, and COWW.

The reality is the thompson centers all shoot a conical lights out if it fits well.

To reiterate, lower charges of powder often shoot worse in TC 1:48 twist barrels. Guys that get these guns to shoot PRB almost universally use a super tight fitting combo to grip the shallow rifling. So what does that leave? Rifling depth. What else could it be?

[brewer12345]

I don't know what it is and I don't care at this point. I count myself lucky that my 54 grey hawk shoots PRB very well at hunting charges and am happy with that. Will get another barrel for the Hawken since the one that came with it shoots maxi balls extremely well.

[LAGS]

I had a .54 about 30 years ago.
I didn't see any advantage over the .50 except for the weight of the ball.
But since then I have learned more about BP rifles and may be willing to give the .54 another go.
For right now I jumped up to .61 and so far I am pleased with it..
But you guys have got me interested in trying a .54 again.

[Edward]

Then why don't Thompson Center barrels shoot a patched round ball well? By well, I mean as good or better than conicals. I realize my example of 3 guns is small, but all three are marginal with a PRB. I tried smaller with thick patches, larger with thin patches, all kinds of wadding, FFg and FFFg powder from 30 to 120 grains. After an entire summer of working with a single TC Renegade, I got it to where I could count on 5"-6" at 100 yards. Many, many loads were far worse. From what I read, a good smoothbore can shoot 3" at 50 yards! I can count on any of my smooth bore shotgun cartridge guns to shoot 4" at 50 yards with a round ball.

If it were the twist rate, wouldn't you expect lower charges to shoot better? In actual practice, I could tell very little difference in accuracy with any powder charge. 30-40 grains was often the LEAST accurate. I tried pure lead, 40/1 alloy, 20/1 alloy, and COWW.

The reality is the thompson centers all shoot a conical lights out if it fits well.

To reiterate, lower charges of powder often shoot worse in TC 1:48 twist barrels. Guys that get these guns to shoot PRB almost universally use a super tight fitting combo to grip the shallow rifling. So what does that leave? Rifling depth. What else could it be?

You"d be wrong ,try shooting soft lead as it fills those grooves unlike the hard stuff your trying to make work . The super tight patched balls is for cleaning fouling without wiping and also moves lead /patch to fill groove easier . At least in my #8 Bob Hoyt barrels , 40-120 grains 2F/3 F 45 to 610 balls using appropriate thickness patch/lubes/Ed

[megasupermagnum]

You"d be wrong ,try shooting soft lead as it fills those grooves unlike the hard stuff your trying to make work . The super tight patched balls is for cleaning fouling without wiping and also moves lead /patch to fill groove easier . At least in my #8 Bob Hoyt barrels , 40-120 grains 2F/3 F 45 to 610 balls using appropriate thickness patch/lubes/Ed

The hard stuff I'm trying to make work!? I've been shooting stick on wheel weights 90% of the time, and I'm not aware of a source of more pure lead short of buying certified alloy.

I've asked over and over, how do I make a TC shoot a round ball accurately. Any of them, I have three. A .520" round ball with pillow ticking (very loose fit that I can start by hand) isn't it, the 520" round ball with canvas patch (tight fit) isn't it. A .535" round ball with pillow ticking (very tight fit) isn't it. A .535" round ball with twill patch (thin patch, snug fit combo) isn't it. I also ran the gauntlet with my .530" mold. I've tried them all with felt wads underneath too.

So what is it? It's not a junk barrel, they all shoot a conical very well.

[indian joe]

The hard stuff I'm trying to make work!? I've been shooting stick on wheel weights 90% of the time, and I'm not aware of a source of more pure lead short of buying certified alloy.

I've asked over and over, how do I make a TC shoot a round ball accurately. Any of them, I have three. A .520" round ball with pillow ticking (very loose fit that I can start by hand) isn't it, the 520" round ball with canvas patch (tight fit) isn't it. A .535" round ball with pillow ticking (very tight fit) isn't it. A .535" round ball with twill patch (thin patch, snug fit combo) isn't it. I also ran the gauntlet with my .530" mold. I've tried them all with felt wads underneath too.

So what is it? It's not a junk barrel, they all shoot a conical very well.

If the bore is good and its a 48 twist it will shoot a patched ball accurately at moderate velocities - something else is the problem
If I lived within 300miles of you I would take the challenge up and prove it - alas theres a big blue patch of water + hundreds of miles of mud and snow - no can do!

250585
my favourite flintlock got me this offhand trophy last year.... 44cal ....48 twist .... shallow rifling (a cheap Belgian barrel).... prb and a ticking patch is a slick easy fit ....moose milk lube ....55grains FFFg.....................BUT .....load this n with 70 grains of powder and it would be lucky to hold the outside of the target off a rest.

I am a fan of CVA barrels and their point of difference was shallower rifling - NOTHING comes close to those old CVA tubes if you take in versatility of loading - the GM barrels shoot as good or better once you find the sweet spot but the sweet spot for a 50 CVA starts at 40 grain and goes all the way to 100. They were (are) SO easy to load for .

Pure lead - nothing else for round ball - I dont know whats in stick on wheel weights but the old style hammer on ones are too hard for round ball - shotgun shot is too hard - plumbers flashing is ok.

Buy one box of Hornady swaged round ball .530, shoot a ticking patch and 60 grains of powder and a wet moose milk patch .

You got 5 to 6 inch group at 100 yards ?????? --- centre it and thats 95 plus on international targets - I presume we talkin about regulation iron sights?? - 4inch is possible with a real good gun - if you can get that with a compromise twist barrel take it and go hunting - yeah theres a swarm of blokes can shoot 2inch ten shot groups with their Flinter offhand at 100 yards - but they all seem to be MIA any time I'm lookin for em.

[megasupermagnum]

The sights were aperture rear, first a Williams, then a Lyman 57. Front was a globe sight with small circle insert. It took many, many days, but I found in my Renegade that a pillow ticking patch lubed with Crisco (spit didn't work well), and 80 grains FFg powder would reliably group 5-6" at 100 yards on a dead calm day. That isn't good enough for a 100 yard shot at deer. It would be 75 yards tops. Not bad, but every conical I ever tried that wasn't a rattle fit in the bore would shoot under 4". The load I'm going to be using next week is a 440 grain conical with 90 grains FFg, no wad. felt wads shoot worse. That load was a reliable 3" group at 100 yards. I did not get but a handful of range trips to play with conicals in this gun. Many guys get maxiballs or similar to shoot even better with a scope.

[rfd]

The hard stuff I'm trying to make work!? I've been shooting stick on wheel weights 90% of the time, and I'm not aware of a source of more pure lead short of buying certified alloy.

I've asked over and over, how do I make a TC shoot a round ball accurately. Any of them, I have three. A .520" round ball with pillow ticking (very loose fit that I can start by hand) isn't it, the 520" round ball with canvas patch (tight fit) isn't it. A .535" round ball with pillow ticking (very tight fit) isn't it. A .535" round ball with twill patch (thin patch, snug fit combo) isn't it. I also ran the gauntlet with my .530" mold. I've tried them all with felt wads underneath too.

So what is it? It's not a junk barrel, they all shoot a conical very well.

what edward said regarding using pure lead balls.

a t/c will shoot as accurate as any good muzzy if you feed it what it wants. however, as hundreds of years have indicated, a properly lubed and patched pure lead balls prefer a slow twist tube. my 43" .54 rice barrel, with shallow squared grooves, has a 1:66 twist that does the job if i'm up to the task. if it was 1:48 i doubt it would work well if at all with a patched pure lead ball. 1:48 is a compromise twist at best that's a jack of all trades and master of none. conicals need a really fast twist, as does the lee REAL bullet. yes, the twist of a muzzy will predicate its best load and usage, among a few muzzy parameters.

as a side note, there are bonafide TRAD muzzys and bonafide wannabe's. this muzzleloader forum blends the modern and the old. there is no way that the two designs can compromise feeding, loading and shooting. it's apples and oranges. trying to make a modern design work as an 18th century design is simply problematic. you want to load and shoot a patched ball accurately? you know what firearm design and parameters you will require. perhaps this forum should be split 'tween trad and modern - that'd be a service to more than a few folks entering the world of muzzy's.

[bob208]

when I worked with hoyt we cut the rifling deeper so they would take a patch. a 1-48 twist will shoot. I have a 1841 Mississippi we lined down to .54. 1-48. it sat around for awhile then one day I tried round balls .526 with .020 patch 60 dr. 3f. it shoots great won many matches with it. any body thinks this load will not drop a deer? better think again.

let us also remember the original Hawkins were cut with a 1-48 twist. as well a lot of others the thing was back then they did not have smokeless powder guns to compere with.

[brewer12345]

Decided on the 50 and ordered it this morning. Now if the weather would just go back to "Fall" instead of the arctic October we have had I will be able to get out and shoot it.

[Good Cheer]

The hard stuff I'm trying to make work!? I've been shooting stick on wheel weights 90% of the time, and I'm not aware of a source of more pure lead short of buying certified alloy.

I've asked over and over, how do I make a TC shoot a round ball accurately. Any of them, I have three. A .520" round ball with pillow ticking (very loose fit that I can start by hand) isn't it, the 520" round ball with canvas patch (tight fit) isn't it. A .535" round ball with pillow ticking (very tight fit) isn't it. A .535" round ball with twill patch (thin patch, snug fit combo) isn't it. I also ran the gauntlet with my .530" mold. I've tried them all with felt wads underneath too.

So what is it? It's not a junk barrel, they all shoot a conical very well.

In the mid 70's my big brother set about making his .54 Renegade shoot accurately with max'd charges of FFg.
Kept the heavy powder charge and juggled the remaining variables.
And he arrived at a combination that was super accurate in his.
He did use a tight ticking patch,
250605
THE GOOD STUFF

neatsfoot oil for lube and a paper under the patched ball to prevent burn through.
He stuck with that load and picked heads off of small game.

[LAGS]

Good thing he was able to do head shots on small game.
With a .54 if you tried a body shot , the head would be all you have left.

[Good Cheer]

Our eyes were better then. We called it head hunting.

[Edward]

The hard stuff I'm trying to make work!? I've been shooting stick on wheel weights 90% of the time, and I'm not aware of a source of more pure lead short of buying certified alloy.

I've asked over and over, how do I make a TC shoot a round ball accurately. Any of them, I have three. A .520" round ball with pillow ticking (very loose fit that I can start by hand) isn't it, the 520" round ball with canvas patch (tight fit) isn't it. A .535" round ball with pillow ticking (very tight fit) isn't it. A .535" round ball with twill patch (thin patch, snug fit combo) isn't it. I also ran the gauntlet with my .530" mold. I've tried them all with felt wads underneath too.

So what is it? It's not a junk barrel, they all shoot a conical very well.Never said junk barrel ,said BHN /Brenell hardness /number ! If you don"t own a tester (your right) your only guessing! On this site folks sell (soft lead) I buy and (TEST) ,never saw the need for store bought alloy as right here it"s available . Lee sells a very inexpensive one I"ved used for yrs ,not perfect but gives a benchmark to count on . So 90 percent of the time your using the wrong lead ,try doing it with soft as it works for every one else /Ed

[wapiti22]

I have a .50 Green Mountain barrel in my TC Hawken. It's very accurate with both round balls and conicals out to 100 ads. (the longest range I can shoot at). I'd love to find a 54 Green Mountain barrel.

[longcruise]

I have a .50 Green Mountain barrel in my TC Hawken. It's very accurate with both round balls and conicals out to 100 ads. (the longest range I can shoot at). I'd love to find a 54 Green Mountain barrel.

Track of The Wolf has the 54 drop ins in stock. You can make a drop yourself with not much effort. That way you can pick the exact barrel that you want.

It's not a money saver though. Cost of the components to DIY is a very few dollars less than buying the drop in. OTOH, there's a few of us misfits who think it's fun!:grin:

[rfd]

i've sent several .50 barrels to bobby hoyt for a ream to .54 and all were excellent and lots cheaper than buying a new barrel.

[LAGS]

@ rfd.
I second that.
Especially if you find used barrels that are not in that great of shape.
He will let you select the Rifling Twist you want also

[brewer12345]

So a silly question on Bobby Hoyt: I kind of want a 58 barrel for round ball. Would this be as simple as buying a 54 barrel for my Grey Hawk (would buy a new Englander barrel) and ship it off to him?

[LAGS]

Kind of.
You should call him first.
Tell him what you have , and he will discuss your options like Twist and kind of make suggestions of what you are looking for in a final product.
Like shape and projectile weight, even patch thickness or if you are shooting without a patch.
He is a little hard to get hold of on the phone because he is so busy.
But it is well worth waiting for him to call back..
He will quote you a price for the work , and you will only pay the return shipping which he can't give you a hard number for at that time.
Trust me.
He does great work , and is very easy to talk to .
Once you get the barrel you want rebuilt , then give him a call and discuss what you want.
Once I get totally finished with my new shop , I will be calling him about more work that I want done.

[rfd]

So a silly question on Bobby Hoyt: I kind of want a 58 barrel for round ball. Would this be as simple as buying a 54 barrel for my Grey Hawk (would buy a new Englander barrel) and ship it off to him?


a very valid question. probably not if the breech is a patent one. one of the .50's i sent bobby we discussed going to .58 and it was too marginal with the threads of the investarms (lyman, dgw, cabela, etc) patent breech plug. no problem going to a .54 with a patent breech.

[longcruise]

I just sent three off to Hoyt. One is a 54 that is a bit iffy because someone drilled and tapped for a scope. Generally to get to a 58 the barrel needs to be 1" wide. Probably are exceptions to that but just leave it for Hoyt to decide.

[rfd]

...Generally to get to a 58 the barrel needs to be 1" wide. ....

really, if it's a typical offshore trad ml, it's all about the breech plug and few (if any?) will allow safely blowing a patent breech out to a .58 bore.

[longcruise]

Hoyt does i regularly with TC barrels. I'm not sure why the patent breech would be a limiting factor?? Most barrel makers make a .58 with a 1" ATF blank.

[rfd]

Hoyt does i regularly with TC barrels. I'm not sure why the patent breech would be a limiting factor?? Most barrel makers make a .58 with a 1" ATF blank.

because the patent breech's open front end screws into the barrel and to go from a .50 to a .58 means compromising the breech threads.

250712

[jjarrell]

Call Joe Williams at The Gun Works. He will build a drop in to your specs. He made mine. A 36” .54 caliber round ball barrel with a 1:79 rate of twist. It will group 2” usually less at 100 yards.

[longcruise]

That doesn't seem to resemble a GPR patent breech. It's what a CVA/Traditions breech plug would look like but the Gpr looks like this.

250736

[bob208]

the breach plug threads have to be larger then the intended bore. if not you lose them when you bore and ream the barrel.

I don't under stand this got to have a bigger bore thing. a .54 will kill just as dead as a .58. a .50 will kill just as dead as a .54. poor shooting can not be made up for with a larger bore.

[rfd]

THIS is a GPR barrel and patent breech plug ... see the issue with attempting to bore larger than the ante-chamber?

https://i.imgur.com/xPJEa42.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/YQPBcqx.jpg

[indian joe]

THIS is a GPR barrel and patent breech plug ... see the issue with attempting to bore larger than the ante-chamber?

https://i.imgur.com/xPJEa42.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/YQPBcqx.jpg

Trash the patent breech - use a plain plug and nipple drum and the "problem" ceases to exist

a 58 barrel needs to be minimum 1inch across the flats tho.

[rfd]

Trash the patent breech - use a plain plug and nipple drum and the "problem" ceases to exist ...


i'm NOT a fan of patent breech plugs, but attempting to replace one with a classic flat breech is NOT an easy row to hoe because of location Location LOCATION - that's a lotta modifying work as the barrel will dramatically shorten, as will the lugs and pipes, and etc etc. easier to have a new "drop in" barrel built. might as well just have bought a diff'rent "correct" gun to start out.

the prime difference tween a 50, 54 and 58 is the ball - .490/175, .530/225, .570/280 - that's a Very hefty difference 'tween a 50 and a 58, and a serious consideration for Large game hunted. if yer stuck with an offshore 50 and want to hunt moose or elk or bear, getting yer patent breech gun reamed to a 54 makes some serious sense.

[Good Cheer]

the breach plug threads have to be larger then the intended bore. if not you lose them when you bore and ream the barrel.

I don't under stand this got to have a bigger bore thing. a .54 will kill just as dead as a .58. a .50 will kill just as dead as a .54. poor shooting can not be made up for with a larger bore.

Got a 32" long .61 Green Mountain smooth bore drop-in barrel that's had round ball rifling cut in it on a TC Hawken flintlock.
Removing that much metal from a one inch across the flats barrel makes it handle perfect so yeah, I reckon it's about big enough.

[indian joe]

i'm NOT a fan of patent breech plugs, but attempting to replace one with a classic flat breech is NOT an easy row to hoe because of location Location LOCATION - that's a lotta modifying work as the barrel will dramatically shorten, as will the lugs and pipes, and etc etc. easier to have a new "drop in" barrel built. might as well just have bought a diff'rent "correct" gun to start out.

yep yr right - I wasnt payin attention there - my 54 is a single wedge 28inch barrel - only the one wedge/lug to relocate and hack an inch off the under rib - but the lock plate fitup could turn into more of a headache than it looks at first too.

the prime difference tween a 50, 54 and 58 is the ball - .490/175, .530/225, .570/280 - that's a Very hefty difference 'tween a 50 and a 58, and a serious consideration for Large game hunted. if yer stuck with an offshore 50 and want to hunt moose or elk or bear, getting yer patent breech gun reamed to a 54 makes some serious sense.

........

[Good Cheer]

Measured the screw holes' depths in a pyrodexed New Englander barrel today.
Rebore to .52 or .54 will work. .58 would only leave about .025 on a couple of those under rib screws.
Don't think I need more .52's or .54's though.
Reline to a smaller bore (maybe a .377 or a .411) or a longer .577 barrel could work.

[brewer12345]

the prime difference tween a 50, 54 and 58 is the ball - .490/175, .530/225, .570/280 - that's a Very hefty difference 'tween a 50 and a 58, and a serious consideration for Large game hunted. if yer stuck with an offshore 50 and want to hunt moose or elk or bear, getting yer patent breech gun reamed to a 54 makes some serious sense.

There is more out there than round balls. Maxi Balls and great plains bullets provide a LOT more penetration and energy in 50 and 54 cal if it is needed.

[Eddie Southgate]

Have several Thompson Center rifles in .50 and .54 a well as my Seneca with .36 and .45 barrels and all shoot patched balls as well as they do any of the conicals .

[indian joe]

There is more out there than round balls. Maxi Balls and great plains bullets provide a LOT more penetration and energy in 50 and 54 cal if it is needed.

Sam Fadalas book ages ago had a picture of a bison shot through with a 54 ball - dropped it on the spot and the flattened slug lodged against the skin on the off side - dunno just how much more penetration is required ?
Ifn ya run the ballistics on it there is very little energy difference at 50 yards - (with both safely loaded) the slug gives away about 300FPS to the ball at the muzzle
This argyment is more about personal preference and how ya hunt than anything else in these larger calibres. (54 and on up)

[brewer12345]

Sam Fadalas book ages ago had a picture of a bison shot through with a 54 ball - dropped it on the spot and the flattened slug lodged against the skin on the off side - dunno just how much more penetration is required ?
Ifn ya run the ballistics on it there is very little energy difference at 50 yards - (with both safely loaded) the slug gives away about 300FPS to the ball at the muzzle
This argyment is more about personal preference and how ya hunt than anything else in these larger calibres. (54 and on up)

Maybe. With a more stoutly constructed animal (elk, bear) I would opt for the conical. Penetration really starts to matter when you get to these bigger, heavier boned critters. Deer? Heck, you could almost throw your shoe.

[Good Cheer]

Have yall looked at the 533476 minie mold that Lyman put out?
250870
Been meaning to try it out patched in some .54's, TC, Lyman and one rebore.

[rfd]

There is more out there than round balls. Maxi Balls and great plains bullets provide a LOT more penetration and energy in 50 and 54 cal if it is needed.

this is where i'll depart and go my own way as part of my interest in muzzleloaders is strictly from an 18th century perspective that speaks only of balls - patched or otherwise - loaded into rifled or smooth tubes. the early part of the 19th century that invented cap guns and conicals hold little to no interest for me as a good .54 flintlock rifle can just as easily turn any north american hunt into DRT if need be.

so it will really come down to the kind of muzzy gun one wants to employ, and for what prime reason. i see it as three main choices - old school 18th century, later school mid 19th century, or that modern inline crap. something for everyone, eh? ;)

[Edward]

this is where i'll depart and go my own way as part of my interest in muzzleloaders is strictly from an 18th century perspective that speaks only of balls - patched or otherwise - loaded into rifled or smooth tubes. the early part of the 19th century that invented cap guns and conicals hold little to no interest for me as a good .54 flintlock rifle can just as easily turn any north american hunt into DRT if need be.

so it will really come down to the kind of muzzy gun one wants to employ, and for what prime reason. i see it as three main choices - old school 18th century, later school mid 19th century, or that modern inline crap. something for everyone, eh? ;)
So don’t hold back Rob , how do you really feel ? :bigsmyl2:

[brewer12345]

this is where i'll depart and go my own way as part of my interest in muzzleloaders is strictly from an 18th century perspective that speaks only of balls - patched or otherwise - loaded into rifled or smooth tubes. the early part of the 19th century that invented cap guns and conicals hold little to no interest for me as a good .54 flintlock rifle can just as easily turn any north american hunt into DRT if need be.

so it will really come down to the kind of muzzy gun one wants to employ, and for what prime reason. i see it as three main choices - old school 18th century, later school mid 19th century, or that modern inline crap. something for everyone, eh? ;)
Absolutely. I have fun with caplocks and no truck at all with inlines. At some point I will try a flinter.

[rfd]

... At some point I will try a flinter.

drop me a line when yer ready and before you buy.

[brewer12345]

drop me a line when yer ready and before you buy.

Will do. The budget is spent for this year, but we will see in the spring.

[Good Cheer]

this is where i'll depart and go my own way as part of my interest in muzzleloaders is strictly from an 18th century perspective that speaks only of balls - patched or otherwise - loaded into rifled or smooth tubes. the early part of the 19th century that invented cap guns and conicals hold little to no interest for me as a good .54 flintlock rifle can just as easily turn any north american hunt into DRT if need be.

so it will really come down to the kind of muzzy gun one wants to employ, and for what prime reason. i see it as three main choices - old school 18th century, later school mid 19th century, or that modern inline crap. something for everyone, eh? ;)

But but, in North America muzzleloaders were old hat by the 18th century. Why are you using that modern stuff?
:wink:

[LAGS]

I too will be getting a Flinter.
But all my life , people have told me that I was born 100 years too late.
That puts me into the mid 1800's.
But I thrive on keeping history alive.
So why not take a step back and see where we came from.
The Modern Stuff , it just isn't my thing as far as BP goes.
But I hate it when people try to use the Modern Technology to try and upgrade the Old Stuff.
Let the old stuff stand on its own.
And bring up your skill levels to make the old stuff work the way it use to.
Yes , Limited in some ways.
But , it was what it was , so live with it.
Your Great , Great Grandfather's did.
Keep the past alive and honor them for giving you the knowledge that you have today.

[longcruise]

THIS is a GPR barrel and patent breech plug ... see the issue with attempting to bore larger than the ante-chamber?

https://i.imgur.com/xPJEa42.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/YQPBcqx.jpg

That's what is commonly, and incorrectly, referred to as a "patent breech". It's only similar to the actually patented Nock's breech. But that's neither here nor there as regards this discussion.

If the picture is of a Lyman 15/16" barrel that is maxed out at .54 caliber. It's not a candidate for a larger bore.

What's at discussion are TC barrels with percussion snail breeches. The smallest breech plug used by TC is 11/16" which is .9375. That includes the flinter plugs. Definitely not a problem taking a TC 50 to 54 or a TC 1" ATF barrel to 58. Maybe even 62 depending on the holes drilled in it. You can order up a 62 1" barrel from rice so it's obviously not an issue just based on barrel width.

[brewer12345]

Got the new barrel out to shoot. I pretty much stuck with 50 grains as I was just making sure I was on paper. Shot surprisingly well and didn't even seem to need over powder wads. Based on how easily the balls went down the barrel, I need to try a thicker patch and maybe a 495 ball. Obviously better round ball shooter than the 1 in 48 barrel. Will have fun shooting this thing and dialing in a tight grouping load. I will also try cranking up the charge to see if I can find a good hunting load.

[longcruise]

Glad it's working out for you. It's just my experience with one GM drop in, but it shoots better with heavier charges.

[megasupermagnum]

brewer12345, I'm glad you got it worked out. If I could buy a drop in 1" barrel for my Renegade that didn't cost more than the entire rifle, I would.

Sorry guys, I've been away. I read back through the entire thread, and everyone seems to be skirting the issue. My personal best accuracy is a consistent 5-6" at 100 yards, which was 80 grains FFg Goex, pillow ticking patch lubed with crisco (Frontiermuzzleloadings lube works equally well), and a .532" ball (the size my .530 mold drops). To get this accuracy I have to swab every shot, use target peep sights, and a perfect rest.

To be perfectly clear, 6" at 100 yards is NOT good for a rifle. Not by me, not by any rifle shooters.

I've made multiple threads before on my adventure on trying to make this rifle shoot, so you can look up specifics if you care. I'll quickly list what I tried.

.520", .530" (actually .532"ish depending on alloy), .535" (actually .536"ish depending on alloy)

Alloys- stick on wheel weight, 40/1, 20/1, COWW + 2.5% tin. The .520" balls were Hornady swaged
My SOWW IS dead soft lead. I own the Lee hardness tester. It is as close to pure lead as you can get.

Patches- TC prelubed, blue pillow ticking, white twill, blue jeans, duck canvas, cotton T shirt, and two kinds of very thin fabric (possibly bed sheets?)
All patches were 100% cotton. The super thin patches couldn't even be loaded without tearing. I won't even get into the fallacy of "measuring" a fabric with a calipers. The entire idea of it is ridiculous.

Wads- 1/8" thick felt (real wool felt), nitro card, crumpled up patch


Powders- FFg and FFFg Goex, both red and old eynsford. Fg Swiss.
I tried charges ranging from 30 to 120 grains. For the most part 60 to 90 grains seems to be the sweet spot.

54 caliber Rifles- TC renegade, TC new englander, TC renegade flintlock. I ran the gauntlet with the percussion guns. The flintlock is brand new to me, but initial impressions are that it is no better.

54 caliber Handgun- TC scout pistol. Oddly shoots equally well as the rifles, possibly better! I believe it to have a 1:20" twist barrel!


Conicals- TC maxiball, Hornady great plains, Buffalo ball-et, Accurate 55-430M, Lee REAL 380 grain. I honestly have put very little work into conicals. Just about everything shoots sub 4" at 100 yards. The Lee REAL is a dud, shooting worse than a PRB. I also have the 50 caliber version, and it doesn't shoot good either.


Now hopefully we are on the same page. Conicals shoot more than twice as accurately than PRB in my TC 1:48 twist rifles. If I put as much time into the conicals as I have the PRB, I fully expect to be shooting in the 2" range at 100 yards. Compare that to 6" for the PRB.

The real Hawken rifles were 1:48 twist, so don't give me that "compromise twist" excuse. I really doubt they would have become one of the most popular rifles out there if they had an effective range of 75 yards, just barely more than a far more useful smooth bore.

On top of that, if it WAS the twist rate, why wouldn't lower charges shoot better? I hear with regularity that the 1:66 twists shoot best around 100-120 grain charges. According to the Goex load charts, 110 grains FFg is 1850 fps. A quick check shows a ball RPM of 20,182 for the 1:66 twist. To get that same RPM from a 1:48 twist would take 1346 fps, roughly 65 grains on the Goex chart.

Does a TC barrel shoot as well as a deeper rifled 1:66 twist at 65 grains of powder? NO! They don't shoot as well period. TC makes good quality barrels, we ruled out twist rate. Almost universally people are getting their best accuracy with very tight fitting combos, of a larger ball and thinner patch. Good Cheer's brother, surprise surprise, a tight fitting combo with a thin patch. I never said they could not be accurate, just that it is difficult to get there.

The barrels are good quality, with quality/consistent bores from end to end. The crowns are good. If the twist rate was the limiting factor, less powder would be the answer, but it is not!

What does that leave? rifling depth.

P.S. before anyone else says anything about pure lead, note I did 90% of my shooting with dead soft lead. I also tried 3 other alloys. Here's the thing. Alloy made no difference. I mean nothing at all! Patch lube had a far larger impact on accuracy. I could take a jar full of a mix of all alloys, and it wouldn't matter in the slightest. If alloy made any difference, it was more likely to be a tiny difference in size than any actual difference in the metal. For reference, COWW+2.5% and 20/1 alloy cast .533" and .537" from my .530" an .535" molds. Pure lead casted .532" and .536" from those molds. 40/1 alloy was somewhere between.

[rfd]

But but, in North America muzzleloaders were old hat by the 18th century. Why are you using that modern stuff?
:wink:

what modern stuff? i built and use a kibler colonial .54 flintlock rifle, circa 1760-1770. that good 'nuff? :)

https://i.imgur.com/OJylbBB.jpg

[brewer12345]

mega, you have a lot more time and patience than I do, that is for sure. I thought it was really telling with both my TCs that it was relatively easy to find a good, accurate (defined as my eyes are the limiting factor) load with conicals in both of them, while round ball, not so much. The 50 I ended up giving up on and the 54 showed good accuracy but only with a near max load of Black MZ. I used 110 grains and a 54 round ball on my doe this year, no way does it require that much powder to take down a deer at 50 yards. It just turned out that is what it took to get accuracy. With the slow twist green mountain barrel, the 50 already showed better round ball accuracy than I was ever able to get with the stock 1 in 48 barrel. Why? Who knows. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

[Good Cheer]

what modern stuff? i built and use a kibler colonial .54 flintlock rifle, circa 1760-1770. that good 'nuff? :)

https://i.imgur.com/OJylbBB.jpg

It sure is and beautiful too!

[indian joe]

brewer12345, I'm glad you got it worked out. If I could buy a drop in 1" barrel for my Renegade that didn't cost more than the entire rifle, I would.

Sorry guys, I've been away. I read back through the entire thread, and everyone seems to be skirting the issue. My personal best accuracy is a consistent 5-6" at 100 yards, which was 80 grains FFg Goex, pillow ticking patch lubed with crisco (Frontiermuzzleloadings lube works equally well), and a .532" ball (the size my .530 mold drops). To get this accuracy I have to swab every shot, use target peep sights, and a perfect rest.

To be perfectly clear, 6" at 100 yards is NOT good for a rifle. Not by me, not by any rifle shooters.

I've made multiple threads before on my adventure on trying to make this rifle shoot, so you can look up specifics if you care. I'll quickly list what I tried.

.520", .530" (actually .532"ish depending on alloy), .535" (actually .536"ish depending on alloy)

Alloys- stick on wheel weight, 40/1, 20/1, COWW + 2.5% tin. The .520" balls were Hornady swaged
My SOWW IS dead soft lead. I own the Lee hardness tester. It is as close to pure lead as you can get.

Patches- TC prelubed, blue pillow ticking, white twill, blue jeans, duck canvas, cotton T shirt, and two kinds of very thin fabric (possibly bed sheets?)
All patches were 100% cotton. The super thin patches couldn't even be loaded without tearing. I won't even get into the fallacy of "measuring" a fabric with a calipers. The entire idea of it is ridiculous.

Wads- 1/8" thick felt (real wool felt), nitro card, crumpled up patch


Powders- FFg and FFFg Goex, both red and old eynsford. Fg Swiss.
I tried charges ranging from 30 to 120 grains. For the most part 60 to 90 grains seems to be the sweet spot.

54 caliber Rifles- TC renegade, TC new englander, TC renegade flintlock. I ran the gauntlet with the percussion guns. The flintlock is brand new to me, but initial impressions are that it is no better.

54 caliber Handgun- TC scout pistol. Oddly shoots equally well as the rifles, possibly better! I believe it to have a 1:20" twist barrel!


Conicals- TC maxiball, Hornady great plains, Buffalo ball-et, Accurate 55-430M, Lee REAL 380 grain. I honestly have put very little work into conicals. Just about everything shoots sub 4" at 100 yards. The Lee REAL is a dud, shooting worse than a PRB. I also have the 50 caliber version, and it doesn't shoot good either.


Now hopefully we are on the same page. Conicals shoot more than twice as accurately than PRB in my TC 1:48 twist rifles. If I put as much time into the conicals as I have the PRB, I fully expect to be shooting in the 2" range at 100 yards. Compare that to 6" for the PRB.

The real Hawken rifles were 1:48 twist, so don't give me that "compromise twist" excuse. I really doubt they would have become one of the most popular rifles out there if they had an effective range of 75 yards, just barely more than a far more useful smooth bore.

On top of that, if it WAS the twist rate, why wouldn't lower charges shoot better? I hear with regularity that the 1:66 twists shoot best around 100-120 grain charges. According to the Goex load charts, 110 grains FFg is 1850 fps. A quick check shows a ball RPM of 20,182 for the 1:66 twist. To get that same RPM from a 1:48 twist would take 1346 fps, roughly 65 grains on the Goex chart.

Does a TC barrel shoot as well as a deeper rifled 1:66 twist at 65 grains of powder? NO! They don't shoot as well period. TC makes good quality barrels, we ruled out twist rate. Almost universally people are getting their best accuracy with very tight fitting combos, of a larger ball and thinner patch. Good Cheer's brother, surprise surprise, a tight fitting combo with a thin patch. I never said they could not be accurate, just that it is difficult to get there.

The barrels are good quality, with quality/consistent bores from end to end. The crowns are good. If the twist rate was the limiting factor, less powder would be the answer, but it is not!

What does that leave? rifling depth.

P.S. before anyone else says anything about pure lead, note I did 90% of my shooting with dead soft lead. I also tried 3 other alloys. Here's the thing. Alloy made no difference. I mean nothing at all! Patch lube had a far larger impact on accuracy. I could take a jar full of a mix of all alloys, and it wouldn't matter in the slightest. If alloy made any difference, it was more likely to be a tiny difference in size than any actual difference in the metal. For reference, COWW+2.5% and 20/1 alloy cast .533" and .537" from my .530" an .535" molds. Pure lead casted .532" and .536" from those molds. 40/1 alloy was somewhere between.

Well I admire your stubbornness anyway!!!

Hawken ..............Go spend a few hours in the museum of the fur trade in Chadron Nebraska -- check out the rifles the REAL mountain men carried into grizzly bear country - the Hawken brand is conspicious by its absence - as is caplock ignition

Rant all you like 1:48 is a compromise twist for round ball - far from ideal --ok some barrel makers may be able to make one that shoots ok - by compromising something else in the design such as using deeper groove rifling - but whatever they do the 1:48 will be more finickity to load accurate with patched round ball than a slower twist (1:66 to 1:72)

deeper groove rifling (say 14thou) in a slow twist will be more finickity to load accurate than a shallower rifling (8-10thou)

patches ----put all of these in the workshop rag bag ---TC prelubed, blue jeans, duck canvas, cotton T shirt, and two kinds of very thin fabric (possibly bed sheets?)

lube ? If you have to swab every shot to get accuracy you have missed something along the way

251046
heres ten shots fired in competition from the sitting position (no backrests - elbows on knees - no barrel support) at 100yards on the NLMRA target - 50 cal CVA pennslyvania flinter - 1:66 twist - shallowish rifling (for a ML barrel) - 75 grains GOEX 5FA - calico patch - moose milk lube - no spotting scopes allowed at this match and I am a poor reader of wind and this is a tricky range - the 8 shot main group was fired holding dead on centre - when I finally saw where I was hitting I held off left about 5inches for the last 2 (the pair touching in the 9 ring - overcompensated a little!) no cleaning between shots - I never clean between shots in a ML comp - this is not a tight load 490 ball and a calico patch - load it down with yr fingertips on the ramrod. That rifle would shoot accurate with any charge from 40 grains to 80 . We tested 5FA as about 5% quicker than FFFg - and it was half the price at the time in bulk bags (mid 1990's)
I am as stubborn as you for sure - I post the target to show I am not also full of BS - been there done some of it.

[rfd]

joe - well stated, well said.

[LAGS]

I agree with Joe.
You need to use what works for you.
All these Special Concoctions may work for you , but they are not universal for every rifle or shooter.
Same as powder charges or projectals.

I had three of the same rifles at one time and they all took different loads including lubes and swabbing of the bore to get the Same accuracy.
So find what you like and stick with it.
And sometimes simple is better.
But there is nothing wrong with you sharing what works for you.
It could Maybe something that will work for others.
But there is no Magical Universal load that works for everyone.

[megasupermagnum]

Stubborn is right. I really tried my best to get a PRB to shoot like you show in that picture. Maybe it would be wise for me to just say screw 54 caliber, and re-bore right to 58 in a slower twist. As for swabbing between shots, this is a huge plus for PRB vs a conical, as you can usually get away without it. I still found it best to swab every few shots, as I like to feel that last little bit of seating the ball, compressing the powder. If I don't feel that I know the crud has built up too much, and that shot is often a flier. I mostly stick to a grease lube, as my main purpose is hunting. Crisco is some amazing stuff, and I honestly think a guy could do just fine with nothing else.

I still cannot wrap my head around why a 1:48 twist cannot shoot as well as a 1:66, as long as the Ball RPM is similar. I would gladly hunt with 55 grains of powder if it shot as good as your 1:66 with 75 grains. I feel like there has to be some other compromise besides the twist rate alone. The rifling depth on mine are .004"-.005" deep. I never did measure my scout pistol, but by eye, I have no reason to suspect anything different.

I have no intentions of passing through Nebraska any time soon, but I'll keep it in mind.

[LAGS]

I don't want to get into a discussion about Aerodynamics on a Round ball cause I ain't no rocket sergeon.
But it only makes sense that a Round ball shot out of a rifle is like a baseball that is pitched.
You throw a ball and it flies fairly straight.
There will be a general spinning just because of friction from your fingers.
But is you intentionally put more spin on the ball it will curve in flight.
But if you throw it harder and apply the same amount of spin , the ball will curve more , or curve quickly at some point in it's flight.
So to me , 1:66 twist will fly straight.
A 1:48 slow velocity might curve a bit.
A 1:48 driven real fast might curve even more.
Now clyndrical objects like footballs and conical slugs are a whole different ball game

[indian joe]

I don't want to get into a discussion about Aerodynamics on a Round ball cause I ain't no rocket sergeon.
But it only makes sense that a Round ball shot out of a rifle is like a baseball that is pitched.
You throw a ball and it flies fairly straight.
There will be a general spinning just because of friction from your fingers.
But is you intentionally put more spin on the ball it will curve in flight.
But if you throw it harder and apply the same amount of spin , the ball will curve more , or curve quickly at some point in it's flight.
So to me , 1:66 twist will fly straight.
A 1:48 slow velocity might curve a bit.
A 1:48 driven real fast might curve even more.
Now clyndrical objects like footballs and conical slugs are a whole different ball game

Lags
I have a 45 cal flinter I built with a shallow groove 1:48 barrel - that thing shoots fine with lighter loads - max = 55 grains of FFFg( not so bad a load for a 45 anyways) - I won a major with it two years ago at 75 yards - add ten grains more powder and its all over the place - me no rocket sergeon either but I figure somewhere in that last ten grains the shallow rifling is no longer able to hold the patch/ball stable,

Other side of this deal ? we shot LEE minies quite successfully out of a CVA 45 with the 66 twist - but only if you really stoked it - (hadda turn a bit off the base plug so the skirts didnt blow - and if ya backed off the load at all they got the wobbles.

[rfd]

balls is balls and bullets is bullets.

1:48 twist has always and forever been an offshore gun compromise for bullets AND balls, which is the predominate part of this thread - the twist and the gun.

conicals - ergo, BULLETS - need the faster twists ... patched balls need the slower twists, which has been that way for patched balls for Hundreds of years of rifled barrels for flinters and then cappers alike.

during their day, and absolutely today, real american built traditional muzzleloaders that were designed to only propel patched round balls of .45 and above will ALL employ a slow rifling twist of about 1:60 thru 1:72 ... mostly dependent on bbl length and bore diameter.

think about what you will use that "trad muzzy" for, and then take a good clue from all of the above, then with the right gun and bbl twist, begin whatever loading adventures you deem necessary to part gnat wings at 100 meters or whatever traditional muzzleloader fun that piques yer fancy.

[megasupermagnum]

balls is balls and bullets is bullets.

1:48 twist has always and forever been an offshore gun compromise for bullets AND balls, which is the predominate part of this thread - the twist and the gun.

conicals - ergo, BULLETS - need the faster twists ... patched balls need the slower twists, which has been that way for patched balls for Hundreds of years of rifled barrels for flinters and then cappers alike.

during their day, and absolutely today, real american built traditional muzzleloaders that were designed to only propel patched round balls of .45 and above will ALL employ a slow rifling twist of about 1:60 thru 1:72 ... mostly dependent on bbl length and bore diameter.

think about what you will use that "trad muzzy" for, and then take a good clue from all of the above, then with the right gun and bbl twist, begin whatever loading adventures you deem necessary to part gnat wings at 100 meters or whatever traditional muzzleloader fun that piques yer fancy.

That brings me to the dilemma. I like the TC renegade, and I like the PRB, but they don't like each other. I also really like 54 caliber, it just seems right. Knowing what I know now, I wish I had bought 50 caliber guns, and had them all bored out to a slow twist 54 caliber from the start.

Why on earth did green mountain stop making 1" drop in barrels?

[brewer12345]

That brings me to the dilemma. I like the TC renegade, and I like the PRB, but they don't like each other. I also really like 54 caliber, it just seems right. Knowing what I know now, I wish I had bought 50 caliber guns, and had them all bored out to a slow twist 54 caliber from the start.

Why on earth did green mountain stop making 1" drop in barrels?

Well, either pick up a renegade in 50 and have it bored, or buy a hawken and pick up a green mountain barrel.

[brewer12345]

That brings me to the dilemma. I like the TC renegade, and I like the PRB, but they don't like each other. I also really like 54 caliber, it just seems right. Knowing what I know now, I wish I had bought 50 caliber guns, and had them all bored out to a slow twist 54 caliber from the start.

Why on earth did green mountain stop making 1" drop in barrels?

Well, either pick up a renegade in 50 and have it bored, or buy a hawken and pick up a green mountain barrel.

[megasupermagnum]

What I should do is quit my griping and just lay down money on what I've really wanted all along. A smooth bore SxS, jug choked 16 gauge flintlock. Rifles are cool, but shotguns are far more useful to me. Unfortunately it doesn't seem too many agree, as other than Pedersoli, nobody seems to make them. Nothing wrong with Pedersoli either, just not my cup of tea.

Sorry I stole your thread.

[rfd]

What I should do is quit my griping and just lay down money on what I've really wanted all along. A smooth bore SxS, jug choked 16 gauge flintlock. Rifles are cool, but shotguns are far more useful to me. Unfortunately it doesn't seem too many agree, as other than Pedersoli, nobody seems to make them. Nothing wrong with Pedersoli either, just not my cup of tea.

Sorry I stole your thread.

amen at last, brutha. in a single, no problemo, but as a SxS you just opened up yet another can o' worms and more frustration unless you have the serious coins to move forward and fulfill that new dream. do consider the ubiquitous and far easier to acquire 20 smoothie - the firearm that won the 18th century.

[megasupermagnum]

The Pedersoli 20 gauge would be the easy route. I would want to duck hunt with it, and 20 is pretty small. 16 is a big jump up, and I'm still undecided if the big 10 would be worth the extra width.

I've seen a couple names thrown around who sometimes build these. I've always been scared to call, as I have a feeling they would quote $15,000 or more. :shock:

I'm no woodworker, and the stock is what really scares me. I do have a cheap worn out 16 gauge SXS I could take barrels from. I was thinking more into building my own.

[Good Cheer]

TC rifling is so shallow that it cleans up with little metal removal. If you want a slower twist for round ball you could have a .55 or a .56.

Or, you could send your barrel to someone with an adjustable rifling machine and have your 48" twist rifling cut deeper. Was going to have that done on a .69 rifle.

[longcruise]

1:48 twist has always and forever been an offshore gun compromise for bullets AND balls, which is the predominate part of this thread - the twist and the gun.

I don't get where you are coming from regarding your "offshore" statement. 1:48 has been around for years including the Hawken brothers rifles and many others made before and after that point in time. Offshore rifles brought into the country during that same period would have been overwhelmingly smooth bores.

[rfd]

I don't get where you are coming from regarding your "offshore" statement. 1:48 has been around for years including the Hawken brothers rifles and many others made before and after that point in time. Offshore rifles brought into the country during that same period would have been overwhelmingly smooth bores.

yes, and much faster twists than 1:48. much will also depend on the bore and bbl length. offshore, as in arrivals today from italy and spain. then again, most of these guns have fair to little in common with the 18th or early 19th centuries. and in keeping with this "slow twist" thread, trad muzzleloaders for patched balls, not conicals.

[longcruise]

Ok, I see now what you are referencing.

[megasupermagnum]

Well I'll be, I finally got a Hunting level round ball load for my Renegade. Just when I was about to give up, I decided to try the .520" Hornady balls, with a duck canvas patch (from my old Carhartt pants), lubed heavily with Crisco, felt wad, and 90 grains of FFg Goex. Wouldn't you know, I put 3 shots close together for once. So I took 3 more, which made a nice 6 shot group about 2 1/4" CTC at 50 yards. I tried 110 grains and it looked just a bit worse, still much better than most combos. I tried 70 grains, and it shot just as good as 90 grains.

My happiness with that rifle was short lived as later on I decided to pull out the New Englander, and shot a good 2" group with pillow ticking and a .530" ball. I then substituted with a Twill patch again lubed with Crisco, felt wad, 70 grains FFg. With that load I put 5 shots in a group just under 1 1/2", call it 1 3/8". I'll be back out again tomorrow, but It looks like I may just have to give up on the renegade, as no matter how much time I spend with it, no matter now nice of sights I have on it, it has NEVER shot as good as my new Englander with its original sights. In fact, just before I broke out my NE, I shot my 54 caliber scout pistol. Even though the recovered patches looked rough, I put 5 shots at 3" CTC at 50 yards, and that's a 10" handgun!

Patches from the Renegade mostly look good, short of the loads I have to slam down the bore. For reasons I cannot explain, my Renegade is just a turd.

[longcruise]

Here's what a tc shop employee told a friend of mine back when it was still Thompson Center. My friend had a Renegade that would not shoot worth a darn. TC told him to send it back to be checked out. They returned it to him with a new barrel.

Now, they told him that given that TC button rifled their barrels they would be a bit smaller at one end because the button would heat up as it was drawn. And that they needed to be breached at the large end and that his had been breeched at the small end resulting in a reverse choke. The new barrel shot fine.

So, take that FWIW. I'm kinda doubtful myself.

[waksupi]

Here's what a tc shop employee told a friend of mine back when it was still Thompson Center. My friend had a Renegade that would not shoot worth a darn. TC told him to send it back to be checked out. They returned it to him with a new barrel.

Now, they told him that given that TC button rifled their barrels they would be a bit smaller at one end because the button would heat up as it was drawn. And that they needed to be breached at the large end and that his had been breeched at the small end resulting in a reverse choke. The new barrel shot fine.

So, take that FWIW. I'm kinda doubtful myself.

I've had too many good button rifled barrels to swallow that one.