shooting long range at deer and elk with paper patched boolits with 30-06

[crackerjack57]

Not sure if this is the best place to ask this question but I need some expertise from y'all regarding my hunting issues. went hunting this past weekend with my 45-70 running a 396 gn cast soft lead boolit. its very accurate at the shooting range and i have no issues. where my problem comes in is im now hunting in some pretty wide open area that's hilly and sometimes winds gusting from 15 - 40 mph. its too difficult for me with the 45-70 to judge accurately the drop at the distances i need to work at which are 350+ yards with the average being 450 yards.

Im wanting to move to my H&R 30-06 single shot. I want something more flat shooting so would need to be throwing a chunk of lead probably 160-200 gns. i am quite familiar with paper patching so doing the process is no problem but wanting input on what i can expect on the target side at 350 - 550 yards, velocities, hardness and nose profile, drop and most importantly the terminal results. Im not wanting to tweak my 45-70 loads but just want to see what I can do with the 30-06 and move this direction. how fast can i push a paper patched boolit reasonably and still get accurate and terminal results.

Thanx for your input.

Crackerjack57

[shortlegs]

Watching this one, I would like to try this also.

[Doughty]

My OPINION, based on my experiences. If you can get a 200 grain bullet, with a flat nose, up to about 2400 fps, it will have the ability to kill a deer or antelope at those distances, if you can hit it properly. To do this with a high potential for success, you are going to need a rifle/load that is near 1 MOA, a good range finder, and a Bullet Drop Compensating scope. And LOTS of practice. That will get you in there for elevation. However, with winds like you are describing, only a large amount of luck will get the correct windage. You will need near absolute zero wind, and then, some luck. The more practice you have under actual hunting conditions, the less luck you will need.

[M-Tecs]

I have limited experience with paper patching and that is only in 45 caliber. I have zero experience paper patching a 30-06. I do have significant experience with long range shooting. The kill zone on medium to large Whitetail is 10" to 12" https://www.chuckhawks.com/kill_zone_game_animals.htm

While I am not a big Chuck Hawks fan the following advice is spot on:

One thing that those numbers show us is that ordinary 9" economy paper plates can be used to simulate the size of the target that the deer and pronghorn hunter needs to be able to hit. These make inexpensive targets. The distance at which you can keep all of your shots on a 9" paper plate with your hunting rifle from field positions is your personal maximum effective range under ideal conditions (an easily visible target and a calm shooter).
In the field your personal maximum effective range will usually be less because you will be shooting at a far less distinct target, you will probably be excited and you may also be winded from a long stalk or arduous hike. The vagaries of wind, uphill or downhill angles and altitude must also be considered in the field, as well as the trajectory of the cartridge and load that you are using. Never, in any case, shoot beyond the maximum point blank range of your cartridge.
Good luck and please hunt responsibly.

Grouping accuracy is one part of the equation. Next are wind drift and drop. One of the challenges is establishing what your actual BC so you can predict both wind drift and drop.

Even with 165 grain boattail high BC bullets most hunter have difficulties past 300 yards.

Some 30 cal paper patch info here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?19731-Success-w-30-Cal-paper-patch-bullets

Bullet RPM can be an issue also at higher velocity. I didn't look it up but my guess is your H&R is a 10 twist. This thread deals with PC bullet but it does adress RPM issues. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?390134-Pressure-rule&p=4753587#post4753587

Hopefully Larry Gibson will weigh in on this one.

[country gent]

One thing M Tecs left out was the Time if flight at extended ranges. This can be longer than a lot think it is. A step or moment right at your trigger pull can put the animal well out of the zone. Reading wind and distance accurately is important also. SO is light at longer ranges Light and mirage bends images.

[Ramson222]

some very good longrange hunting videos with both airguns and firearms can be found here, one of my favorite channels. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCthxJ7N1usTDbd4n_aSSO7g

[Larry Gibson]

Yes, I will weigh in. For hunting/shooting deer and particularly elk at 350 - 550 yards I suggest, based on years of hunting and shooting both at short and long range (25 to 600 yards), I suggest the OP buy a box of Hornady 180 or 190 gr SPBTs and load them over top end load of H4350 or H4831SC. While I dearly love to shoot long range with HV cast bullets I know what the expected 15 - 45 mph winds can do to them at long range. Any cast bullet suitable for killing a deer or elk reliably and humanely is going to have a pretty poor BC. They just will not be reliably accurate under the hunting conditions the OP mentions. The '06, as mentioned, has a 10" twist which means the PPing must be perfect to maintain any surety of accuracy (1st shot must be good) at the mentioned ranges under the best of conditions let alone in that kind of wind. I just can't recommend the use of a cast bullet PP'd or not.

I've killed enough elk (over 20 on license) and observed many more killed under hunting conditions to use a cast bullet myself at those ranges. For elk I use a M70 Classic with 24" barrel pushing the 190 gr SPBT Hornady at 2700 fps over H4831SC and have a self imposed max range of 500 yards with it (max distance where the bullet will reliably expand given a heart/lung shot). I will only take a shot like that under the best of conditions and only if I can't get closer. For longer range mule deer country I favor the 180 gr Hornady SPBT over H or IMR 4350 for 2800 fps out of that rifle. That 180 gr SPBT will expend on deer out to 600 yards. The rifle is capable of 10 shot moa accuracy with either load. It wears a Zeiss scope with repeatable elevation adjustments and I have verified the range settings 200 to 600 yards in 50 yard increments via actual shooting at those ranges. I use a range finder also and spend considerable time shooting from varied field positions in the field at various ranges before season. Even then, as mentioned, I won't take a long range shot unless I am sure of it and can't get any closer.

My apologies if I disappoint by not expounding the virtues of cast bullets on big game at long range but I just don't see it under the conditions the OP mentions. Yes I have killed PDs out to 500 yards with cast bullets but that's a lot different than Deer/elk. For what the OP will probably spend hunting the $30 or so dollars a Box of Hornady SPBTs will cost are well worth it.....to me they would be anyways......:drinks:

[popper]

Agree with Larry. Cast from 308 at distance has a terrible drop. And you may need 2 shots!

[Dan Cash]

Getting a 215 grain cast, patched bullet to 2400 fps in an -06 is no problem and you can get good accuracy, at least sufficient to kill a deer out to 300. You have no business pushing it beyond that. Personally, if you can't get within 200 yards of a deer, you need to stay home.

I live on the western edge of the North Dakota Badlands; surely your terrain is no more open than ours here. The longest shot I have ever made on a deer was a measured 185 yards and that was on my rifle range in Kentucky. Here, my shots are from 50 to 150 yards, even for antelope.

[Tripplebeards]

Yep... J words with a rifle that shoots MOA or better.

[barrabruce]

35 inches of differences for a gusting wind at 400 yards makes a lot of error.
Just saying

Better bone up on lame excuses for winging something at best.

Maybe get a couple of 30 shot mags and blaze away walking the shot in.
At least a gut shot animal will die eventually.
Being in the open getting a few random body shots ought to slow or tether it for you.



Then just blame useless lead bullets while being a big man in the pub to your mates.:kidding:

[barrabruce]

Sorry for that.
Just because I-would have to litter the hillside with wind flags.
And have a rangefinder and a ballistics app tuned for my load I’d still be guessing the wind deflection.

I know there are lots of people With great talents but if I asked me benchrest champion fella I know ..... I doubt he would say he could land one right on the spot without a few wind flags to dope the wind.
And I recon he’s pretty damn good at what he does.

[shortlegs]

Long range shots at game are very iffy, Steel can be hunted year round!

[crackerjack57]

Thanx for the input fellas! the mulie was taken this morning in more reasonable conditions. 250 yards and 5 MPH wind. I hear all of what you all are saying and I appreciate your input. I hear what larry is saying about just buying a box of J bullets for some of the times we cant get in closer then 350 yards and in the places i have permission to hunt sometimes its tough to close that gap. and yes. i have spent 2 hours belly crawling 300 yards to get a 210 yard shot but sometimes it just cant reasonably be done.

some of you that are paper patching for the 30-06, in boolit weights of 150-210 gn....... what might your speeds be, weight of boolit, ballistic coefficient and most importantly group size at say 300 yards?? Ive done most of my hunting with a cast boolet, ive had fantastic results and notably with my hunting buddies better terminal performance then their jacketed. I just like how lead preforms once it hits an animal. what might my possibilities be with paper patched at 300 yards??

[dverna]

I need all the advantage I can use. I hunt with jacketed bullets.

[Crash_Corrigan]

I paper patch my 311284's and cover the base so I do not add the gas check and I shoot them in my Garands. I also add PSB's to fill the case to the base of the boolit and my usual velocity is 1850 or so FPS. Utilizing the adjustable gas valve on the M1's I can find the sweet spot where I can get full functions and not beat the rifles to death.

I regularly shoot at 300 and 400 yd steel targets and my best results are 9 out of 10 at 300 yds and about 3-4 out of 10 at 400 yds. The targets are 24" tall and 18" wide at the base and only 8" wide at the top.

I have not had much success at higher velocities than 1850 FPS as the accuracy drops as the velocity increases. The fastest velocity I have achieved was almost 2400 FPS but they had flattened primers and measured case expansion was too high for my safety concerns so I tossed the brass.

I agree with Larry Gibson as for your needs a j-word bullet would do better for you, so spring for the bucks to get where you want to be.

[Drm50]

I've got some excellent bolt action rifles with scopes. On a windless summer day off a rest they are all capable of hitting a groundhog in the head at 300yds. Shooting 350-450yds in OPs situation with anything is not a reasonable responsible shot.

[M-Tecs]

I've got some excellent bolt action rifles with scopes. On a windless summer day off a rest they are all capable of hitting a groundhog in the head at 300yds. Shooting 350-450yds in OPs situation with anything is not a reasonable responsible shot.

With paper patched lead bullets?

[Drm50]

With paper patched lead bullets?

Sorry, forgot to mention I use jackets on all game hunting, except in old original rifles. When I hunt with them it's usually in WVa and the shoots are not much over 100yds. These are loaded to BP duplication, not hot.

[ipopum]

Good advice given here. I grew up hunting the west, and most hunters were using 06, 270, 7mm or 8mm. No one was trying shots over 200 yds since most were using open sites. Even with the early scopes anything over that was a long poke. Scopes have gotten better. Bullets are better and most of the newer guns will group better. Based on my experience anyway. I shoot a lot of cast boolits but if I am hunting deer and/or elk I will always go a jacketed projectile. Most hunters will advise you to get closer or not take the shot. OH that 7mm mentioned was a 7 Mauser not the 7 Mag. Guns have have gotten better but some of us still shoot the old ones for our own amazement but not long distance on live game.

[ipopum]

Some casters are experimenting with powder coating bullets and driving them faster and shooting longer ranges.

I cant speak to that but i am shooting powder coated in my 38 & 357. sofar it has all been positive and I will start to try them in my rifles.

To soon to hunt live game for me anyway.

[Good Cheer]

Because of the limitations imposed by the materials longer means bigger rather than smaller and faster. Deer aren't hard to kill but bigger is inherently easier to make accurate and does not depend so much on expansion to do the work needed.
But that's my opinion and nothing else.
If the planet had avoided the scourge of jacketed bullets perhaps we could all be enjoying wonderful scaled up versions of something about like the .32 Winchester.
:p

[largom]

Long range shots at game are very iffy, Steel can be hunted year round!

Shooting at game long distance is just shooting, not hunting. I prefer to hunt even if I am not successful. Shooting targets at long distance is a different story.

[longbow]

I am glad to be reading this many comments not supporting long distance hunting... or shooting at animals. I know far too many people that shoot very little if at all but go hunting totally unprepared and not capable of making any kind of killing shot past maybe 100 yards. I also know people who have bragged about making 600 yard shots on deer, elk and moose. One guy had a range finding scope and made a shot on a deer at 600 yards which he bragged about. He was a good shot and had good equipment he knew but all it takes is a gust of wind or small mistake and at 600 yards that bullet can be feet off target turning a heart shot into a gut or nose shot. Then if the animal is wounded can you find the spot you hit it then track it? Another guy bragged about shooting a moose at 600+ yards with a .243 which is not a moose gun at any range. It took him 6 shots to hit it!

I am not much of a hunter. I have hunted and still hunt some but I am more of a shooter than hunter. I have nothing against hunting as long as responsible shots are taken ~ as in within the capabilities of both hunter and equipment.

I hear arguments from people that everyone should hunt with a scope because it makes you more accurate. Really? So a .54 cal. muzzleloader with open sights at 50 yards is an inferior weapon to a scoped .243 for moose at 600 yards? I don't think so! A .30-30 lever action with open sites at 100 yards is a more ethical and dependable choice than a scoped 7mm mag. at 600 yards on any big game shot at by anyone.

Long story short, you and the gun may be able to connect regularly into a kill size zone at long range but what happens if there is a gust of wind, you make a small mistake (this is shooting in the field, not off a bench at known range) or whatever and your killing shot turns into a gut or butt shot? Can you get to the spot and find the blood trail? Can you do it fast enough that the wounded animal can't outdistance you and get away possibly mortally wounded?

I read in one magazine that hunters have to have a cartridge like .25-06 to hunt antelope ~ flat shooting high velocity guns are required! In another magazine I read about successful muzzleloader hunting of antelope!?! Wait... what!?! That must be one high velocity flat shooting muzzleloader... or maybe they got within range?

I would argue that 300 yards is a long shot and longer than most are capable of to make a killing shot dependably. Take into account remaining velocity and expansion requirements and I think it becomes an iffy proposition at best for cast boolits. Large bores like .45-70 are certainly capable of dispatching large animals at extended range and really don't need much if any bullet expansion to do it, but they also suffer from quite high trajectories so trickier range estimation and greater wind deflection than with higher velocity/BC bullets. An animal gut shot by a .45-70 is no better off than one gut shot by a .300 Winchester.

I'll side with the guys saying don't do it.

Just my opinion though and we all know what that's worth.

Longbow

[Petander]

I took a moose @ 385 meters with 338 Lapua Mag ten years ago.

The bull had been wounded the day before,I got a call from the club,being the only long range shooter PLUS I had a tracking trained german shepherd. At that time I was practising 300-500 meters at least every other week all year round. Had done that for years. In rain,wind,snow,any weather.

I could never do that with cast,my abilities as ammo maker/caster are far behind the task. And 338 LM BC is something completely different,as is ability to kill,obviously.

I still shoot 300 WM 300 m regularly but I consider 200-250 a max for whitetail. Everything depends. I group 30 mm / 300 with many bullets. Zeiss,Tikka,Spuhr... shoot clays up to 500 with Sierra 168 MK,they still group 50 mm out there.

I have a 22LR bolt rifle,mildot scope,it's good for beer cans up to 200 meters.

[crackerjack57]

Guys n gals............ Thanx for your input. I appreciate it. I think that I will need to find other hunting spots where for the most part i will be able to get closer then 380 yards.

[Petander]

Guys n gals............ Thanx for your input. I appreciate it. I think that I will need to find other hunting spots where for the most part i will be able to get closer then 380 yards.

Or you can start long range practising with a modern rifle and ammo. Can you shoot there, practise in those conditions as you like?

Long range shooting with proper equipment is lots of fun and addictive. I have seen women -who never fired a gun before- break claybirds one after one @ 300 meters w 300 WM. An instructor friend does these first timer shooting courses - it's impressive to see how easy shooting can be... until we start to think.

[Good Cheer]

In the 70's an instructor told me that women do that because they pay attention to what is being said. And in 1990 my wife proved it to me when she sat down with a center fire for the first time and shot a 5/8" group (7-08, 130 grain, 100 yards).

[303Guy]

My lovely niece sets the bar when it comes to shooting. She's a natural. We were shooting beer cans at about 80 - 100 yds when the cans bgan hopping in the air. She was shooting them on the bottom rim to make them jump - she said just hitting them was getting boring. Then she started shooting the end facing away, through the opening!

[Petander]

Yeah,when there's no previous bad habits learned... it's easy! Only think what was just said by the instructor.

I witness this every year one way or another in my own shooting. When I start practising something seriously after a break, like trap, my scores -that are often surprisingly good in spring- always drop for months. I think and analyze too much.

[longbow]

I find the same thing in shooting guns but even more so in archery. I often don't get a lot of practice through our snowy winters so in the spring when I go to the first shoot my expectations aren't that high yet more often than not I get quite a good score. Then I start practicing for the next shoot... and thinking. That's usually my downfall. Too much thinking! It all has to be natural and relaxed leaning on what you have learned and know. Muscle memory.

"Feel the force" and shoot!

Longbow

[softpoint]

I use paper patch and regular lubed bullets in .45/70 to hunt big game. I also use cast bullets in my 358 winchesters to hunt big game out to 200 or so yards. Under .35 caliber rifles get jacketed pills while hunting big game with one exception. For very close shots over feeders on whitetail deer, I will occasionally use a .30/30 with the RCBS flat point cast bullet. These shots are seldom over 50-70 yards.

[John Boy]

Have you ever been at the rifle range before hunting season, counted and chuckled at the number of gun owners sighting in their rifles ... that couldn’t hit a bull in the **** with an ironing board ... trying to put a bullet hole on paper? These are the “hunters” that wound animals that die hunkered in a brush pile because of their long range shots after they finally put a bullet hole on paper at 50 yards
I stopped counting the number of deer I shot at 35 and every one was hunted with a shotgun loaded with slugs or buckshot.

[OverMax]

30-06 so dearly respected in the open field flat lands of mid America where a standing Bull at 250 yrds will brace his legs and take all the lead a shooter of a 30-06 can aim. When a shooter/handloader of the 300 Win mag steps up level's his rifle. It's "good night Mr. Bull ~ or whatever."

My opinion
If someone wants to harvest really BIG big animals? Moose Elk Bear & trophy Mule deer. 300 Win Mag has a reputation for dispatching everything in North America well. 45-70 & 30-06 are I believe on the cusp of being antiquated when compared to today's high velocity harder hitting cartridge offerings.

[M-Tecs]

30-06 so dearly respected in the open field flat lands of mid America where a standing Bull at 250 yrds will brace his legs and take all the lead a shooter of a 30-06 can aim. When a shooter/handloader of the 300 Win mag steps up level's his rifle. It's "good night Mr. Bull ~ or whatever."

My opinion
If someone wants to harvest really BIG big animals? Moose Elk Bear & trophy Mule deer. 300 Win Mag has a reputation for dispatching everything in North America well. 45-70 & 30-06 are I believe on the cusp of being antiquated when compared to today's high velocity harder hitting cartridge offerings.

Can't stop laughing at the first sentence....................

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I will share a several of mine.

First far more big game animals are lost do to shot placement than anything else. Most hunter only shoot enough to go hunting. Their biggest challenge is limited shooting ability coupled with a lack of basic anatomy for proper placement.

Second the recoil and concussion of the magnum cartridges of the above 30/06 are more than most casual hunters can deal with.

Third I don't see much so call knockdown difference between the 30/06 and the 300 Win or the 300 Weatherby. I have not shot any big game with any of the other various 30 cal Mags. I did some load development for a buddies 300 UltraMag since he could deal with the recoil. I have shot some with a 338 Win mag and the 375 H&H. The 375 is a hammer. The 338 is closer to the 30 Cal mags than the 375. I have around a dozen 06's. I have sold my 300 Win., 300 Weatherby and my 338 Wing Mag. If I need to really thump something I reach for the 375 H&H. I am open to a 338 Lapua or something in that class. Don't think I will even purchase another 30 Cal mag to hunt with.

Maybe 15 years ago I watched a young lady shoot a 360 class elk at just over 230 yards. One properly placed shot with a 6mm Rem using a Barnes TripleShock. Honestly I don't think my 375 H&H would have put it down any quicker.

[Jedman]

Can't stop laughing at the first sentence....................

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I will share a several of mine.

First far more big game animals are lost do to shot placement than anything else. Most hunter only shoot enough to go hunting. Their biggest challenge is limited shooting ability coupled with a lack of basic anatomy for proper placement.

Second the recoil and concussion of the magnum cartridges of the above 30/06 are more than most casual hunters can deal with.

Third I don't see much so call knockdown difference between the 30/06 and the 300 Win or the 300 Weatherby. I have not shot any big game with any of the other various 30 cal Mags. I did some load development for a buddies 300 UltraMag since he could deal with the recoil. I have shot some with a 338 Win mag and the 375 H&H. The 375 is a hammer. The 338 is closer to the 30 Cal mags than the 375. I have around a dozen 06's. I have sold my 300 Win., 300 Weatherby and my 338 Wing Mag. If I need to really thump something I reach for the 375 H&H. I am open to a 338 Lapua or something in that class. Don't think I will even purchase another 30 Cal mag to hunt with.

Maybe 15 years ago I watched a young lady shoot a 360 class elk at just over 230 yards. One properly placed shot with a 6mm Rem using a Barnes TripleShock. Honestly I don't think my 375 H&H would have put it down any quicker.

Absolutely, Shot placement and using a proper bullet are most important.

Jedman

[Old Coot]

As Jedman said:"Absolutely, Shot placement and using a proper bullet are most important.

Jedman ." There is no rifle that you could carry into the field and shoot from your shoulder that will positively put an animal down immediately no matter where it is hit. Knock down power is a fallacy that we have bought into. If you put the bullet in the right place the beasty will come down. If you interrupt the CNS (central nervous system) it will come down right now. If you shoot it through the heart or lungs it may (or may not) run some small distance before it expires. If you shoot it in the liver it will die how far away depends on you and whether you are willing to wait long enough before following it (a minimum of 30 minutes by the clock). If you gut shoot it it will die. Somewhere else and probably not be recovered or even found by you. There is no Mangleum on the market that can change those facts. I know I have use a number of them, and they don't kill any better than the 30/06 or 7x57mm mauser.

[fcvan]

I had a friend and co-worker who was a commercial butcher before becoming a LEO. He had bagged and killed so much game, which he processed, that he became a butcher at 17. Flash forward.

My friend had a Savage 110 in 30-06 from the time he was 12, but at 32 wanted a 300 mag with a vortex optic because he hunted Elk where the ranges we greater. First trip out, he bagged an Oregon Elk at 450, using his range finder and new rifle. He was no slouch behind the sights and in his hunting, he was a shooter. I shot with him, at various targets and ranges. He can shoot.

I limit my range to 100 or less as that was the usual range I encountered game near. This guy regularly shot beyond my capability, but not his. There is a lot to be said regarding folks who knew not only the rifle's capability, but also their own. I think they called that regular practice, he did.

PS, My cousin and my friend never killed more deer with cast. Dad killed more deer with his 30-30 than his 30-06, the whole concept was if you can't stalk them in close, you aren't a hunter. Dad and cousin never hunted Rocky Mountain Elk or Wyoming Antelope, 100 yards is a very good stalk for any hunter

[largom]

Wyoming antelope can be stalked. About 12 yrs. ago I hunted antelope in WY. with a friend that did not hunt. After crawling on hands and knee's and then on our belly I killed my antelope at less than 70 yards. Had a buck and doe tag so did this twice on same hunt. My friend stated that he had never in his life been on a hunt like that.

[fcvan]

Best I can say, his hunt with you was a journeyman lesson on the hunt, leading to the kill

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Well, if you ever tasted venison from a poorly hit deer that suffered for a time before dying you would not want a repeat of the experience. I shot a deer once a long ways off and did not find it until morning. Never again.