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dverna
10-27-2019, 08:31 PM
Jesus “died” on the cross for our sins. But God cannot die....Jesus certainly suffered but He did not die.

IMHO, many Christians seem to over rate His sacrifice.

When I was an atheist, I had no illusions of everlasting life, yet I would have died to save my children. I think every decent person would do the same.

Jesus “died” knowing he would not die....not much sacrifice there. Jesus “died” to provide a path to salvation for billions of God’s children. We would die to save one of our children.

Should we be grateful that He gave us a way to salvation....CERTAINLY!!

Was it much of a sacrifice....not in the big scheme of things.

MT Gianni
10-27-2019, 08:47 PM
I believe that before his death he paid the penalty for all of our sins. To sweat, as it were drops of blood means an intense agony that death may have been a relief from. This included the mental anguish of all that all of humanity has done.
Many of us would take a bullet to extend our childrens', spouses or grandchildrens' lives. To be nailed upright, left to hang until we could no longer lift ourselves enough to breath sounds very different to me. Understanding the whole scheme of things does not diminish the overall suffering. While he did not die eternally, his physical body did. Since none of us could duplicate it, it must have been an awesome thing indeed.

GhostHawk
10-27-2019, 09:07 PM
His was the ultimate sacrifice, he who was without sin, scourged, beaten, mocked, and crucified.

God perhaps can not die, but Jesus, as his son and as a human being, certainly did die. And was RAISED!

He is RISEN! He is Risen indeed. Death oh where now is thy sting.

He did die, was laid to rest in a tomb and on the third day was resurrected. Showed himself to his believers and disciples.
But said touch me not as I have not yet ascended to my father.

So "Over rated" not in my book.

Don't get me wrong Dverna, I like you, and I like a lot of the threads you post, the thoughts you come up with.
I just think you have not got this one quite straight in your head yet.

And I am no scholar, bible or otherwise. But I firmly believe that his blood was shed for me, that it washes my sins away, makes it possible for me to ascend as he did. I could be wrong, but I do not think I am this time.

Ickisrulz
10-27-2019, 09:21 PM
Jesus is 100% man and 100% God. Jesus the man lived a life just like we do. Jesus the man died a horrible death before being tortured first. His fear before being arrested was real, his pain was real and his death was real.

One reason that people are made in the image of God is so we can understand him. God the Father paid the price of having to watch the mistreatment and death of his son. Do you think this was an easy thing to do even though he knew the outcome? I'd rather be beaten and crucified than having to watch one of my sons undergo such torment even if I knew they'd be with the Lord afterwards.

The sacrifice that Jesus and his Father made was very real and very costly.

dangitgriff
10-27-2019, 09:54 PM
Many lessons are connected to the death of Jesus, IMO.
Humanity may never achieve a sin-free existence, especially when it insists on elevating to positions of power a few to rule over the many.
Jesus’s own people betrayed him when he was brought before Pontius Pilate; Pilate asked the crowd gathered in audience to claim Jesus as one of their brethren, and offered Jesus a reprieve from death if they would but remove him from the confines of the city and relieve Pilate of the complaints about Jesus’s sermons. No one stepped in to prevent the sentence of death by crucifixion. Jesus told Pilate he was not afraid to die. Pilate was left no choice at that point but to send him to his death, lest he appeared weak before the public he ruled over. And that was that.
The little guy versus the government behemoth...doesn’t that sound all too familiar?
R/Griff

Traffer
10-27-2019, 11:49 PM
"Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life."
So, do you consider yourself on of the "we too"?
Dare I say Nope.

dverna
10-28-2019, 05:10 AM
I have no doubt that Jesus was crucified and that He "died" for our sins. The part of Him that was man, would die at some point or His mission would not have been realized. And I presume His death was not destined to be a peaceful one, or it would not have had the impact needed to make us grateful.

He was fearful and His pain was real. The part of Him that was man would have felt the pain.

The question is just how much of a "sacrifice" was it?

Most atheists, with no expectation of resurrection or eternal life, would die just as gruesome a death to save one child. They would look at their death as the end but accept the ultimate sacrifice.

Jesus, was part God. His existence would not end on the cross. He would not "die". He would make His sacrifice to save the billions of His children yet to come. Any loving father would do the same for a lot less.

Or maybe I am looking at this incorrectly?

GhostHawk
10-28-2019, 07:05 AM
I think to truly understand that question, one would have to ask him before he was crucified.

That Jesus knew what was coming is clear. He asked that this cup be passed from him.
But how much did he know of what would come after his death? How much of those plans did God the father confide or withhold?
Probably a question that can never be answered. But even if he had an idea that this was the plan. How much surety could he have that all would turn out as planned?

None of which diminishes his sacrifice in any way IMO.

Put the shoe on the other foot. Would you offer yourself as sacrifice knowing the pain, torment, and shame you would endure so that you could save others? Even if you were 99% sure that you would be raised after?

Last, I offer this thought. While our Lord is a part of the Holy Trinity, there are still things in God Almighty's mind that no one knows, including the day of judgement that not even Jesus knows. He knows it is coming, but not when. How much of that was true for his Crucificion?

So no I don't think it is overrated. Perhaps some people use it more than they should when preaching the gospel.

But for me, when I was in spiritual agony, begging to be accepted, to be washed clean, made worthy in Gods sight. That was the most precious gift in the world. And the second was the peace which surpasses all understanding, peace like a river that came with that commitment. And I have seen proof of that peace working in my life. Making me a better man, slower to anger, quicker to forgive, able to turn the other cheek. Able to see memory's of past pain and see why it happened the way it happened. See the pain, anger, and frustration the other person was larboring under.

And knowing that misery loves company, passing that pain to others to make themselves feel better.

Not understanding that TALKING about pain, sharing it with others reduces it, diminishes it.
And Joy shared is magnified, enhanced, expanded.

Once you can see the cycle, understand it, you can begun to short circuit it. Turn pain, anger, fear and frustration into love with soft words and willing ears to hear.

3 things abide, Faith, Hope, and Love. And the greatest of these is love. Once we learn to share that love, turn away pain. Life gets easier.

Tonight a miracle happened in hour house. Myself, my wife cindy and my daughter Katie (technically step daughter) sat and talked for 2 hours about how we could best help her get her life in better order. No one got angry or upset, no raised voices, no hurt feelings. If you told me it would happen 5 or 10 years ago, heck even a year ago I'd of called you a liar. But it happened. Hallelujah. Hosanna's to the Lord.

redhawk0
10-28-2019, 07:14 AM
The sacrifice was because Jesus was a sinless man/God....He hung on that cross and bore the sins of all mankind and at that point God the Father for the very first time turned his back on Jesus..."My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?" The first time since infinity past and the Father and Son broke fellowship.

This is also the true punishment for a non-believer...not that he/she will spend eternity in eternal fire...but that he/she will be apart from God for eternity future.

redhawk

mpescatori
10-28-2019, 07:36 AM
A most interesting thread, a most interesting subject for discussion.

On the one hand, we only have the four Gospels as assumed "eyewitness testimony"; personally, I do not give too much credit to St.Paul, but that's just me.
On the other hand, we should read Josephus Flavius,a Hebrew scribe, historian and eyewitness to the destruction of Jerusalem by Roman troops in 70AD
We should also speak to learned rabbis on the "Hebrew style of administering the law" - it turns out much of what's in the Gospels re: Jesus' trial may be made up,
or narrated in such a fashion as to lead us to believe one chain of events, when it actually happened in quite another fashion.
Not just Jesus' Passion, but his childhood as well.

The most difficult question is "When did Jesus become Son of God?"
Some will reply "on his day of Birth"
Others will counter "on the day John baptized him"
And there are other possibilities as well.

What was the cross like ? Some say it was a trellis-like contraption, to which individual beams were hoisted; others will say they were individual crosses.
Yet the Greek originals mention the word "stavròs" for "cross", which means "upright pole" - so any interpretation is applicable.
Incidentally, it was the Roman Republic which used the cross as death sentence, not the Empire;
So when Costantine had his dream "in this Sign shall you Win" (in hoc Signo vinces) nobody knew what the cross looked like.
Most Archaeologists and Historians agree Costantine's soldiers did not paint a cross on their shield, but a "Xi-Rho" asin the coin below

250366 KI RHO (http://www.tinianumismatica.com/prodotto/ae-chi-rho-lione-fplg-ric-174/)

Under this perspective, is Jesus' sacrifice overrated ? Not at all.

Was He the only one to die a Cacrificial Death ? That is another matter.

Ickisrulz
10-28-2019, 08:07 AM
I have no doubt that Jesus was crucified and that He "died" for our sins. The part of Him that was man, would die at some point or His mission would not have been realized. And I presume His death was not destined to be a peaceful one, or it would not have had the impact needed to make us grateful.

He was fearful and His pain was real. The part of Him that was man would have felt the pain.

The question is just how much of a "sacrifice" was it?

Most atheists, with no expectation of resurrection or eternal life, would die just as gruesome a death to save one child. They would look at their death as the end but accept the ultimate sacrifice.

Jesus, was part God. His existence would not end on the cross. He would not "die". He would make His sacrifice to save the billions of His children yet to come. Any loving father would do the same for a lot less.

Or maybe I am looking at this incorrectly?

"You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:6-8

The process of Jesus' sacrifice was not a 100% unique one. Many innocent people have been tortured and murdered in hideously painful ways. Jesus' motivation was not 100% unique either. Many people have sacrificed their lives to benefit others.

But the point is, how much can someone give for another other than laying down their life? Jesus did this for people who are not righteous or good*. Paul touched on these ideas in his letter to the Roman church.

*good in the Bible generally refers to someone who exercises kindness to others.

What many people miss is the New Testament's emphasis on the work of God the Father through the sacrifice of Jesus. If you read Paul's letters, he emphasizes God's gift, God's work, God's plan and God's sacrifice. The 100% unique thing about Jesus' sacrifice is that his Father ordained it to work out the salvation of humanity and had to sit back and watch the carnage without stepping in to stop it.

DeputyDog25
10-28-2019, 04:03 PM
“The most difficult question is "When did Jesus become Son of God?"
Some will reply "on his day of Birth"
Others will counter "on the day John baptized him"
And there are other possibilities as well.”

If you believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, and if you believe it from cover to cover as intended, then this is not at all “difficult.” Jesus has always been and always will be because you see Jesus is God and vice versa. The Holy Trinity makes this very clear.

As far as the crucifixion being overrated, my opinion is absolutely not. As a matter of fact I feel as though it’s very underrated and unappreciated by many. Without this unselfish act by our Lord and Savior we would all be destined for an eternity in Hell. Jesus’s sacrifice guaranteed that those who accept and believe in Him would not perish but spend eternity with Him in Heaven. To that I rejoice and say Praise the Lord forever! Amen.

dverna
10-28-2019, 04:38 PM
GhostHawk,

Since accepting Jesus, I have changed as well. My fiancé has commented on it.

I view death differently. I do not look forward to it, but neither do I fear it. Dying with pain is still troublesome, and I have thought about suicide if it ever got bad enough. I have a DNR in my instructions...let God take me when He deems it.

To answer your question, I would not die like Jesus did to save strangers...but I would to save those I love. Jesus suffered because he loved us...we can agree on that. I hope that I would risk my life to save others...but that is different than being executed.

God had no choice but to sacrifice Jesus. After centuries of trying, He knew very few men could ever attain salvation. Adam and Eve were unable to follow one rule, man could not follow the 10 Commandments, and the failure of the 600+ Laws was the last attempt to prove to man we could never meet His standards.

Without Jesus as man’s way to heaven, very few men would make it. Jesus had to die so we could live.

God chose how Jesus would end His time on Earth. There was a reason and a purpose.

Ickisrulz
10-28-2019, 04:57 PM
GhostHawk,
He knew very few men could ever attain salvation.

Without Jesus as man’s way to heaven, very few men would make it.

Without Jesus no one would make it to heaven. Paul was very clear on that. No one was able to please God except for Jesus.

GhostHawk
10-28-2019, 09:17 PM
Dverna I agree with you about death. When he wants me I'm ready to go, wherever, however, he is the master.

I do have some fears about ending my days in a nursing home, old, frail, half or more blind, no control, no privacy, no dignity.

My dad was 93, almost totally blind, frail, and dementia started creeping in. First he starting having problems with any person of color taking care of him. Eventually he started attacking and hurting his care givers. He had to be transfered to a different facility 150 miles away where they had people trained to deal with patients like that. I do NOT want to go that way, and I know suicide is a sin. Is stopping eating and drinking a sin?

Or launching myself in a kayak in a situation where I know I will go over a dam?

Not that I see myself doing anything like that in the near future.
But one wonders sometimes.

I was sure for years that the end of the world as we know it was going to come, and I could go out defending my family. Die with honor and purpose. Now I'm not so sure. I think I need to sit down and have a long talk with the Lord about it.

wv109323
10-28-2019, 10:39 PM
You say that you would be willing to die for your children or friend. But what good or what would that change. Your death would not provide anything to your child or friend. If they were in trouble they would still be in trouble after you sacrificed yourself.
Christ's resurection proves that God is able to resurect the dead. Christ was called the first fruits of the resurection.
Christ also experienced being forsaken by God duting his death.
The Jews shead millions of gallons of animals blood for sacrifices. Christ shead blood was less than 2 gallons. The animals blood has no forgiveness of sin, Christ's blood is the only forgiveness of sin. The Bible says "Without the sheading of blood there is not remission", So Christ's death can not be overlooked or minimized or considered unnecessary.

DeputyDog25
10-28-2019, 11:49 PM
wv109323 I think you’re missing the point here. You say that dying for a friend or a child would serve no purpose. I beg to differ with you. In Iraq and Afghanistan many a life was saved by the unselfish sacrifice of a soldier jumping on a IED or taking fire in front of his brother. In the non-military spectrum what about the father who sacrifices his own life by taking on and overtaking or killing a home invader or thug on the street before he dies himself. I don’t know you or your life experience but if you were in the military or law enforcement you would understand the concept of the needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few or the one (yes, I realize this a Spock saying but this was said long before Spock came along). We take a sacred oath to die for our brothers and sisters or our country as need be.

You know why chokes me up and touches my heart and soul the most...the fact that if I were the only person on earth that needed saving through the shed blood of Christ, he would have still subjected himself to the crucifixion. Praise God!

Der Gebirgsjager
10-29-2019, 01:12 PM
This is a religious trolling question. If you do not believe that Christ actually died, then you are saying that the scriptures lie. They plainly state that he died in several verses. Paul said that if he didn't die and wasn't resurrected then there is no hope for us and we believe in vain. God the Father and Jesus Christ, the Son, are two different beings. Christ's resurrection was accomplished by God the Father. He (Christ) had (chose) to suffer death to once and for all atone for our sins. Just as the sacrificial lambs had to actually die under the Law, Christ had to actually die to make the sacrifice valid.

How can you ask if the death of Christ is overrated? The Bible says that no man hath greater love than he who lays down his life for his friend. Your salvation and resurrection are/will be the result of his sacrifice. To ask or believe that it is overrated is to cheapen the gift. If you think that it's overrated, then maybe you don't need the gift and actually reject it.

Ickisrulz
10-29-2019, 03:03 PM
This is a religious trolling question.

I have followed his posts here and have concluded dverna does not troll. He asks honest questions that are on his mind. They warrant thought out responses.

Der Gebirgsjager
10-29-2019, 03:39 PM
Perhaps a position of perspective, Ickisrulz. In this instance I make that observation because the question seems to be formulated to elicit a response by "getting a rise" out of a person. The question for a true believer is not if Christ's sacrifice is overrated, but if it is underrated. To most true Christians the sacrifice made by Christ is the real basis of the Gospel, and the real basis of the religion itself, which teaches that the only way to salvation is through Christ, and that is because Christ made the sacrifice. The question is preposterous when viewed from the viewpoint of a Christian, and is therefore a trolling question. If one believes himself to be saved through the sacrifice of Christ, and if Christ is the only "way", then he can not overrate the sacrifice, and it is a ridiculous question deserving of a sharp answer.

There are, as you know, many versions and branches of Christianity, some so far out as to be considered cults. The first
instance that comes to mind is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, AKA The Mormons. They believe that
during the three days and three nights during which most versions of Christianity teach Christ was dead in the tomb, Christ actually went to Hades and ministered to the lost souls consigned therein. This is not reconcilable with the Holy Bible's
version of what occurred. Dead is dead.

Again, I say it is a religiously trolling question to state that Christ's death was not a death, and if it is overrated. No one who was hopelessly lost and now can receive eternal life with God can consider Christ's death and sacrifice to be overrated.
If they do, they have not fully grasped the gift.

I do consider this to be a "thought out response."

dverna
10-29-2019, 04:57 PM
I have followed his posts here and have concluded dverna does not troll. He asks honest questions that are on his mind. They warrant thought out responses.

Thank you sir.

To DG,

I did not explain how I view death....so bear with me please.

I was a atheist for 5 decades. For an atheist, death is the end. It is final and there is nothing beyond.

For a believer, death is the end of life, but there is hope of eternal life with God. There is something afterwards.

I am not sure every believer knows with 100% certainty they will pass judgement. Jesus knew He would be with God after He died....He was assured of eternal life.

The examples offered by DD25 are important to consider. Imagine being an atheist and sacrificing your life to save others...with no hope or chance of eternal life....what an ultimate sacrifice that is. In my mind, it is different than the sacrifice Jesus made for us. Jesus knew the end of his human life was the beginning of eternal life for all humanity.

BTW, I wonder how God views an atheist who pays the ultimate price to save others. Does He feel any remorse that someone that selfless and courageous has no place in His kingdom?

Ickisrulz
10-29-2019, 05:00 PM
Perhaps a position of perspective, Ickisrulz. In this instance I make that observation because the question seems to be formulated to elicit a response by "getting a rise" out of a person. The question for a true believer is not if Christ's sacrifice is overrated, but if it is underrated. To most true Christians the sacrifice made by Christ is the real basis of the Gospel, and the real basis of the religion itself, which teaches that the only way to salvation is through Christ, and that is because Christ made the sacrifice. The question is preposterous when viewed from the viewpoint of a Christian, and is therefore a trolling question. If one believes himself to be saved through the sacrifice of Christ, and if Christ is the only "way", then he can not overrate the sacrifice, and it is a ridiculous question deserving of a sharp answer.

There are, as you know, many versions and branches of Christianity, some so far out as to be considered cults. The first
instance that comes to mind is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, AKA The Mormons. They believe that
during the three days and three nights during which most versions of Christianity teach Christ was dead in the tomb, Christ actually went to Hades and ministered to the lost souls consigned therein. This is not reconcilable with the Holy Bible's
version of what occurred. Dead is dead.

Again, I say it is a religiously trolling question to state that Christ's death was not a death, and if it is overrated. No one who was hopelessly lost and now can receive eternal life with God can consider Christ's death and sacrifice to be overrated.
If they do, they have not fully grasped the gift.

I do consider this to be a "thought out response."

No doubt everything you said is true and probably has been part of your thinking since you were a child.

Dverna has recently become a Christian and is still working his way through understanding the doctrine. To be honest, I find his ideas a "little out there" at times. But I realize they are honest and under development.

DeputyDog25
10-29-2019, 09:34 PM
Thank you sir.

To DG,

I did not explain how I view death....so bear with me please.

I was a atheist for 5 decades. For an atheist, death is the end. It is final and there is nothing beyond.

For a believer, death is the end of life, but there is hope of eternal life with God. There is something afterwards.

I am not sure every believer knows with 100% certainty they will pass judgement. Jesus knew He would be with God after He died....He was assured of eternal life.

The examples offered by DD25 are important to consider. Imagine being an atheist and sacrificing your life to save others...with no hope or chance of eternal life....what an ultimate sacrifice that is. In my mind, it is different than the sacrifice Jesus made for us. Jesus knew the end of his human life was the beginning of eternal life for all humanity.

BTW, I wonder how God views an atheist who pays the ultimate price to save others. Does He feel any remorse that someone that selfless and courageous has no place in His kingdom?

The Bible assures us as Christians that we need not fear the judgement. When we accept Christ as our Lord and Savior we will forever be with the Lord. Christians are not subject to the great white throne judgment. We also can never lose our salvation for the Bible assures us that nothing can separate us from the love of God and that when we die we come into the presence of the Lord. It is true that we do give an account for ourselves but this is not to determine where we spend eternity but to determine our rewards in Heaven.

dverna
10-29-2019, 10:34 PM
DD25,

I struggle with the fact that everyone who accepts Jesus as their savior will enter heaven, regardless of the sins they have committed or the evil they have done. But so it is written

My friend sent me the book The Shack. It is about a man whose little girl is taken and murdered. Years later, the father spends time with God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost. At the end, God asks the father to forgive the man who murdered his daughter. It made made me think a lot. It showed me how unworthy I am.

How would/could I spend eternity with the soul of the person who murdered a loved one? I expect my rewards in heaven will be diminished by my need for vengeance...vengeance that is properly administered only by God. I am OK with that. I know in my heart I can never be the person God wants me to be.

Der Gebirgsjager
10-29-2019, 10:37 PM
I'm not having much luck this evening trying to create one of those posts with multiple quotes from multiple other posts, so I shall address you each separately in separate paragraphs.

First, Ickisrulz -- I am aware of dverna's conversion, and have followed most of his posts and the resulting conversations. I am happy that he is no longer an atheist, and welcome him as a fellow believer. But, corrections to what seem to be ideas not in keeping with our beliefs should be pointed out and corrected. One isn't born, nor does one come into the faith knowing everything. Some of us who have been here for many years don't know it all, and still have things to learn. Some things will, I believe, only be known and clarified following the Resurrection.

dverna -- I congratulate you on your conversion, and welcome you as a brother. I can not tell you how many times I have attempted to answer a gunsmithing or reloading question, answered it to the best of my ability and in some detail, and then had the original poster say something like, "Oh, I guess I didn't explain the problem clearly," or "There is this fact(s) that I didn't mention," etc. Perhaps we have somewhat the same situation here, and I misunderstood your original post. If so, I apologize -- but the way it is worded calls into question the basic facts of the Gospel as I understand them for the reasons I have already explained.

DeputyDog25 -- I used to believe exactly as you do, that saved Christians would not be subject to the Great White Throne Judgment." In the last few years I have altered my opinion, as the scriptures do very plainly state that all men shall stand before the throne and give account of themselves. "All men" would have to include us. But, the scriptures also say that the Book of Life shall be opened, and those whose names are found in it will be spared, while those who's names are not found therein shall be thrown into the Lake of Fire. When you accept Christ as your Savior, your name is written into the book. But, as for not being judged, there is no free lunch.

All three -- let's see how our understanding compares, and if not, what do you base your understanding on. First, when we die, we do not go to heaven or hell. We are dead. Our hope to live again is in the promised Resurrection. The scriptures plainly state the when Christ shall return the dead in Christ shall rise first followed by those who are his at his coming. Obviously, the dead are dead, or there would be no point in resurrecting them. Then follows the millennium during which time Christ and the saints rule the earth for 1,000 years. Then the rest of the dead are resurrected. This is the second Resurrection, and the time of the Great White Throne Judgment. If read closely there are indications that there may be a third Resurrection of those who are incorrigibly evil and who are consigned to the Lake of Fire. After death is thrown into the Lake, and Satan and his demons cast into the Outer Darkness to wander eternally, in his vision St. John saw the New Jerusalem coming down to the earth wherein God and his saints will dwell eternally. Heaven is coming to Earth, mankind will not ascend to where God presently lives and which is called Heaven by many today. The scriptures plainly state that no man has ascended to Heaven except one, who was Christ. Your Gradma is not presently in Heaven playing a harp, she is dead. Something to think about.

Most humans have a soul, but exactly what that is can be very difficult to determine. In my very poor way I'll try to explain how I see it. One's soul is the gift from God that is received upon conception, the spark of life. It is kind of like the spark from a car battery that travels along the distributor wires and fires the plugs. When the battery is dead, there is no spark. Where does electricity go? No one really can explain it. It exists at the moment as a tiny bit of energy and then is gone...to where? In the case of the soul, upon death it returns to the Maker. Is it held as a separate part of the whole by the Maker and identified as the spark that belonged to John Q., or does it merge into the whole? I can not say. But, upon the Resurrection the spark will be returned and again give life. Rather like jumping the battery. Those who are raised will be raised incorruptible of body, but will again have a soul. Those who are not of Christ and who are raised in the 2nd Resurrection will also again have a soul, but if cast into the Lake of Fire the soul and body will be permanently destroyed. The very good news is that I believe that those in the 2nd Resurrection will have a chance to accept salvation, and when actually viewing the King upon his throne it will be hard not to finally realize that God and Christ do exist, and to chose life rather than death. Even the atheists will be confronted with his reality and find it undeniable. Very few will chose permanent death, given the proof.

So, I don't get too upset about those who claim to be atheists or agnostics. I'll try to explain it to them once, but I believe that what they reject and deny in this life will be shown to them in the next. Christ did not consign Thomas the Doubter to the flames, he proved the truth of his existence to him by displaying his wounds.

God bless (please) you fellows for your interest and persistence in trying to discover the Truth. I do not, as a general rule, participate in "deep theological discussions"; not because I know it all, but because as has happened here it is so easy to get a heated discussion going among those who should care about each other, and some things we won't know for certain until Christ returns.

lightload
10-29-2019, 11:05 PM
I enjoy these threads. I have a question. How long after the Crucifixion was the account written?

DeputyDog25
10-29-2019, 11:15 PM
Der-Gebirgsjager, what I should have said is that we need not fear the judgment for we know where we are spending eternity. We will give a reckoning for how we used the time and resources we were responsible for, as well as our words and actions, but this is how our reward will be established (laying up treasures in Heaven).

Char-Gar
10-31-2019, 12:49 PM
The story of Jesus starts early on in Genesis. God created this wonderful world and put First Man and First woman in charge to run it for God. However man and woman chose to be their own moral authority and decided to rebel against God's moral authority. There was a tempter involved. The rest of the Jewish Scripture tells of the world spinning out of control as sin and rebellion spread through out all humankind. God makes several attempts to correct this sinful rebellion, but each attempt is met with rebuke, by a sinful rebellious human race.

However in the Genesis story, God tells woman that one of her descendents (a man of sorrows) would crush the snake and destroy evil at it's source. This (man of sorrows) is refered to many times in Jewish Scripture and would come to be known as Messiah (the savior or promised deliverer).

Christian Scripture tells us that Jesus is indeed this Savior/Messiah and has come to reconcile a sinful world to God by destroying evil at it's source. This is a process and deeply involves the death of Jesus as the mechanism by which this reconcilaton (atonement) is accomplished.

Therefore, to the Christian, the death of Jesus cannot be overemphasized or overstated. It is heart and core of Biblical faith from the first to the last. Of course to the unbeliver, this is nonsense. But Scripture also tells us that the wisdom of God is foolishness to the people "of" this earth, so I am not concerned about the attitude of non-believers on this subject. Sinful rebellion continues apace!

This will all work out at God intends. When that happens, there will be both rejoicing among the faithful and great angst and grinding of teeth among the unfaithful, who will say, "Oh spit, this stuff was true all along". I recall over 45 years ago listening to a preacher at a Kentucky Camp Meeting. He said in essence, "Folks who say there is no Hell, will change their minds after being there for 15 seconds.".

In the meanwhile, we Christians will remain faithful and the unbeliever will do what unbeliever does.

Char-Gar
10-31-2019, 01:03 PM
I enjoy these threads. I have a question. How long after the Crucifixion was the account written?

That is not an easy question to answer as "Bible Scholars" don't agree. But a little of the backstory would be helpful and then a more or less direct answer to your question.

After the death of Jesus, what became the Christian movement went into high gear and grew at a very rapid rate. It was at first, considered to be a new branch of the Jewish faith, often refered to as the Cult of the Nazarine. It wasn't until the faith moved out of the Jewish homeland, that the followers of Jesus were first called "Christians", by the believers in Antioch.

It wasn't until this faith moved from the Jewish world to the Gentile world, that formal writting became needful. The Letters of Paul were among the very first. I hold that Paul's letter to the churches in Galatia is the oldest and probably dates from 30 to 40 years after the death of Jesus. That said, the death and ressurection of Jesus was the central core of the new faith from the very first. The history of the young church (Acts) makes that very clear. However, you asked about the earliest writting and that is the best I can do for you. I hope it makes sense.

Char-Gar
10-31-2019, 01:19 PM
Thank you sir.

To DG,

I did not explain how I view death....so bear with me please.

I was a atheist for 5 decades. For an atheist, death is the end. It is final and there is nothing beyond.

For a believer, death is the end of life, but there is hope of eternal life with God. There is something afterwards.

I am not sure every believer knows with 100% certainty they will pass judgement. Jesus knew He would be with God after He died....He was assured of eternal life.

The examples offered by DD25 are important to consider. Imagine being an atheist and sacrificing your life to save others...with no hope or chance of eternal life....what an ultimate sacrifice that is. In my mind, it is different than the sacrifice Jesus made for us. Jesus knew the end of his human life was the beginning of eternal life for all humanity.

BTW, I wonder how God views an atheist who pays the ultimate price to save others. Does He feel any remorse that someone that selfless and courageous has no place in His kingdom?

I rejoice in you conversion and like others welcome you to family of God. Let me give a few responses to your post.

1. For the Christian we have far more than "hope" for continuation of our lives to a new and better existance. We have a certainity, not a hope. This certainity of spoken of numerous places in the New Testament and is known as the Doctrine of Assurance, in Christian theology.

2. For sure, not every Christian has this assurance, but that does not mean, it is not available and is his/her birthright as a Christian. Many folks stuggle with this, and I have preached many sermons on this issue. Until one has this assurance they will forever be on First Base of the faith. To move on around the bases, one must first settle this issue.

3. Certainly there are non-believers that do good and worthy thing. Howere we always remember that we are not save by works, but by faith. "If is by faith and not by works, least any man should boast". A right relationship with God, is not about doing good stuff, but ending the rebellion against God, as the supeme moral authority of our lives.

Char-Gar
10-31-2019, 01:25 PM
DD25, I know in my heart I can never be the person God wants me to be.

None of us can! However, by the Grace of God, I am not the man I was yesterday and tomorrow I will not be the man I today. There is great growth in grace and it is life long. None will every become fully what God wishes us to be, that is why we need a Savior. We can't do it on our own steam! Take heart and savor the joys of each day, God is in charge and it will all come out OK. Becoming what God intends, is not a "do it yourself project". God will get er done!

1hole
10-31-2019, 01:50 PM
....I used to believe exactly as you do, that saved Christians would not be subject to the Great White Throne Judgment." In the last few years I have altered my opinion, as the scriptures do very plainly state that all men shall stand before the throne and give account of themselves. "All men" would have to include us.

I also wrestled with your Biblical questions for a long time (years) and slowly worked my way back to where I started. I finally realised, by misreading that "all men will be judged" as a single event I was sqashishing two certain but very different judgements into one and realized that neither of those judgements is for picking out "winners and losers".

So, yes, we will all be "judged." But NOT to determine where either group will spend eternity! That is determined by ourselves before we die in the flesh (John 3:17-18). Thus there is no room at the Great White Throne Judgement to include the Judgement Seat of Jesus - the Lord's Bema seat, i.e., a seat for handing out crowns and rewards for good things done in the flesh. The G.W.T. is - and can only be - the legal court for levels of hellish sentencing of the lost for bad things done in the flesh.

So, yes, all shall be "judged" but not for what it might at first appear!

Jesus promised his followers His peace, not the temporary/conditional peace of the world. I don't know how anyone could have the Peace of Jesus if we had to wait for a final judgement before learning if we made it or not!


... it is so easy to get a heated discussion going among those who should care about each other, and some things we won't know for certain until Christ returns.

It's easy for us to presume opposing statements of strongly held beliefs is "heated" but I don't believe that such heat happens very often.

Wayne Smith
10-31-2019, 02:07 PM
This is a legitimate question and has a legitimate answer, and Redhawk got it. It needs some elucidation and an understanding of the Trinity.

For Eternity past the three members of the Trinity held perfect and complete communication - no separation and no disagreement and no contradiction but perfect unity. Since God is pre-existent this literally occurred for an eternity.

When Christ came his Godhead maintained this unity even as He was on the earth - fully human and fully divine. It was not until the Cross and the exclamation of isolation that this eternal unity was shattered. This was the sacrifice - you are right, the murder of the human body (fully human) was minor compared to this shattering of what had been for an eternity.

It was not just 'the sacrifice of Jesus' - it was the sacrifice of the Trinity in what it had been. Yes it is re-established, but the original communication was broken.

dtknowles
11-01-2019, 04:04 PM
"IMHO, many Christians seem to over rate His sacrifice."

It would seem that there is more than one way to judge Jesus' sacrifice.

It must be considered one of the most powerful events in history with the consequences still unfolding to this day. In that way it is not overrated.

Regarding how much Jesus gave up or suffered. We can never know but it is not obvious that his suffering and loss was greater that the suffering and loss many others experienced before him and since. The suffering and loss is probably more painful for those without faith.

Jesus was only tortured for a day or so. Many people have been tortured for weeks or months and have been subjected to psychological as well as physical tortures. Jesus had the support of others and his torture was public. I would think that having to face brutal torture in private without the support of friends and family or worse knowing that your friends and family were being tortured in private as well would be much more painful. Or worse yet, your friends and family might be tortured before your very eyes. As horrific as Jesus' crucifixion, others have certainly suffered worse.

Tim

wmitty
11-04-2019, 07:37 PM
dverna - because of what Jesus Christ has done both you and this gentile dog typing this and the others here who have been given the gift of faith by a merciful Creator will one day fall before Him in heaven and praise His Father and Him and His Spirit and become co-heirs with the Son. We are saved by the faith God places in us. Make sure you understand that Jesus Christ is that Creator who walked among men. Paul very clearly points out in Romans that one sin condemns a man simply because he has rebelled against his Creator. One thought of lusting after another mans wife; one thought of murdering someone and you have rebelled and are worthy of destruction. NO ONE merits righteousness before our Creator. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
Rest assured that the death and resurrection of our Creator is the focal point of space/time/matter and to paraphrase a dead man "compared to the death and resurrection of the Son/Creator all forms of human endeavor shrink to insignificance." The only things a man can point to and say "this is mine..., I have done/made this" are his pride and his sins; everything else has been provided to him by his Creator.

Regarding death, in John 11 v 25 our Creator tells us "I AM the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live even though they die and whoever lives by believing in Me will never die." All men die physically because of their rebellion against their Creator.
Those given the gift of faith by the Father's decision never experience Spiritual death. Our eternal life began when we were born from above by the Spirit of God at the pleasure of our Creator to extend mercy to us ( John 5 v 24) and we will never experience Death.

Blackwater
11-13-2019, 06:25 PM
DD25,

I struggle with the fact that everyone who accepts Jesus as their savior will enter heaven, regardless of the sins they have committed or the evil they have done. But so it is written

My friend sent me the book The Shack. It is about a man whose little girl is taken and murdered. Years later, the father spends time with God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost. At the end, God asks the father to forgive the man who murdered his daughter. It made made me think a lot. It showed me how unworthy I am.

How would/could I spend eternity with the soul of the person who murdered a loved one? I expect my rewards in heaven will be diminished by my need for vengeance...vengeance that is properly administered only by God. I am OK with that. I know in my heart I can never be the person God wants me to be.

Don, it is very difficult for many to realize the truth of God's mercy and His forgiveness of sin. All He really seems to want is believers and followers, and whatever they did prior to coming to belief really doesn't matter to Him at all. Sure, these people retain the memory of their pasts, but now it's with shame and regret that they view it, NOT with pride and a desire to repeat it. One of my best friends who died not long ago could never really "get" the fact that God's forgiveness is limitless. Had Adolph Hitler come to Him, He'd have forgiven even him. God knows NO limits on his power and abilities. He WON'T do some things, like allow the profane into Heaven. He can't, and still have Heaven be Heaven. Heaven is a place of purity and ultimate grace. Allowing a single profane person/nonbeliever into Heaven would make Heaven not be Heaven any more because it wouldn't be pure any more.

It took a long time - dedades - for me to realize that the way I was looking at God, and the things He sees, are vastly different. He sees MUCH farther and beyond what I do, and He knows far, far, far more than I do. My job is to trust and obey, and whenever I do that, I profit and am happy. When I go against His direction and advice, I lose and am unhappy. This isn't nuclear medicine, folks. We all too often complicate things well beyond their innate simplicity in reality.

But fear not. I think most if not all of us have various struggles when we first come to belief. It took me ages to realize how simple it all really is. I thought something so important and so consequential OUGHT to be complex and require much study to see all the things I imagined were there. But Christ gave us a very simple gift - Life, and a desire to see us live it "more abundantly." All we can really do is say "Thank you," and be humble enough and grateful enough to accept it as freely as He gives it. We owe Him everything. We can never repay Him for even one moment of life, or a second of salvation. It's a gift for those who'll simply reach out and accept it as it's given. I guess that a whole lot for us "accountable" humans to get our heads wrapped around? It certainly was for me!

Blackwater
11-13-2019, 06:43 PM
Now as to the original question of whether or not Christ's sacrifice of his life on the cross for our sins is over-rated:

IMO, there is NO WAY His sacrifice could EVER be overestimated, because it is the difference between our existence and having been eliminated from the face of the earth 2,000 years ago! The only way to underestimate the significance and importance of what Christ did for us is to regard our presence here as an "infestation" rather than a gift from God, largely due to Christ's sacrifice. That's my view, at least. We even mark time on our calendars by that day He died for OUR sins. He was sinless - pristine and unblemished. And He laid down his perfect life so that we sinners might yet live, and He gave us another chance to make good His plans for us.

If you've never had a 2nd chance at something, you may not appreciate the tremendous impact His death had on the entire universe since then. But He did it, and it's real, and we are all so VERY much better off for it. It is THE crucial step in our still being here on earth. Praise the Lord!

Dieselhorses
11-13-2019, 08:52 PM
I don't question these accounts, I just believe. For no man can decide what God can and cannot do or would or wouldn't do OR should or shouldn't do. God does what HE wants when, where, how and why. If you trust Him then you don't ask questions. I am alive today because of Him, and I will die one day because of Him-but only in the flesh!

Thundarstick
11-13-2019, 10:15 PM
Jesus “died” on the cross for our sins. But God cannot die....Jesus certainly suffered but He did not die.

IMHO, many Christians seem to over rate His sacrifice.

When I was an atheist, I had no illusions of everlasting life, yet I would have died to save my children. I think every decent person would do the same.

Jesus “died” knowing he would not die....not much sacrifice there. Jesus “died” to provide a path to salvation for billions of God’s children. We would die to save one of our children.

Should we be grateful that He gave us a way to salvation....CERTAINLY!!

Was it much of a sacrifice....not in the big scheme of things.

Have you contemplated that Jesus personal sacrifice wasn't in a physical death.

The Son had never been separated from the Father and Holy Spirit until he took the form of man( the creation). In that form he was born into this world of a woman, as we all are, was tempted to sin, as we all fail, yet he was the perfect man. He could be a sacrifice because he was without sin. The death we see was only a part of the sacrifice, his true sacrifice was in leaving the ethereal realm with God the Father to become flesh in this world, separated from the Father, yet to return gloriously to the Father. He prayed that if there where any other way, let it pass! He was just like we are, his physical body didn't want to die, but that was the only way THE plan could be fulfilled. Jesus had the power to stay alive, he chose death to purchase us! This suffering a human death, then rising and "returning to the Father" is the first fruit of the plan where we can be reconciled to the Father, God, by the sacrifice of the Son, Jesus. It seems his physical death is what you are referring to, and your not totally off base, because we all die a physical death. A good death or a bad death, who knows, but NONE OF US will die having lived a righteous life to purchase fellowship with God the Father.
Something to think about.

dverna
11-14-2019, 01:01 AM
Thank you gentlemen for reaching out and helping me gain greater understanding by sharing your insights and thoughts.

This past weekend I spent time with a member of the church I attend. He told me his “break through” happened when he stopped asking questions and simply accepted things. He hopes many of his questions will be answered when he faces God, but if not, he accepts that God may not answer them all.

I am a long way from that “break through”. There are days I am stronger in my faith than other days. Even when studying parts of the Bibles that make no rational sense to me, I never doubt the existence of the Holy Trinity. God is the Creator, Jesus died on the cross for our salvation, and the Holy Spirit works within man.

dverna
11-14-2019, 02:03 AM
Just wanted to add something. One of the things that bothers me the most is what I perceive as the injustice of God....let me explain.

No one can enter heaven unless they accept Jesus as their Savior. My father dismissed God and religion completely, so he will not be saved. Yet, my father was a very good man. My father commanded my respect and obedience by his presence and intelligence. He never once struck us, but guided us with his example and strength of character. He is why I became an atheist.

He came from Italy in 1930 not being able to speak English and became moderately successful without ever cheating his customers. His rejection of God started much earlier

When he was 12, the local priest approached my grandmother. The small town in Italy they lived in only provided up to a grade 6 education. The priest saw potential in my dad and convinced my grandmother to send him to the provincial capital to attend the Roman Catholic monastery. He would be educated and become a priest. My grandmother was torn about needing her son to help support the family ( my grandfather had died years earlier), and the honor of having her son become a priest. She decided to send him to the monastery.

After the third day at the monastery, my Dad waited until nightfall, scaled the walls and walked 40 km home in the dark. The story he told was that people at the monastery had stolen the socks my grandmother had knit for him. Plus he was unhappy and wanted to come home. My Dad told me this when I was a child of 10 or 11 when I asked him why we did not attend church. His message was, “ There are bad people in churches”

In retrospect, it is highly likely he had been sexually molested. The “men of God” he trusted had violated that trust....and God had not protected him. For a boy of 12, it was devastating. I now understand his feelings about the Roman Catholic Church and God.

He passed 40 years ago of cancer I did not weep until 10 years ago. I was at the Grand American. A severe storm rolled in and the shoot was suspended. My two best friends (both Christians that helped me find Christ) and I took refuge in the motor coach and a TV show about cancer came on. Started talking about my Dad and I lost it. Had to get out and I sat in the downpour for 20 minutes crying like a baby. Decades of loss poured out of me.

It bothers me that my Dad will not be granted eternal life. He is the best man I have ever known

Ickisrulz
11-14-2019, 08:18 AM
Just wanted to add something. One of the things that bothers me the most is what I perceive as the injustice of God....let me explain.

No one can enter heaven unless they accept Jesus as their Savior. My father dismissed God and religion completely, so he will not be saved. Yet, my father was a very good man. My father commanded my respect and obedience by his presence and intelligence. He never once struck us, but guided us with his example and strength of character. He is why I became an atheist.

He came from Italy in 1930 not being able to speak English and became moderately successful without ever cheating his customers. His rejection of God started much earlier

When he was 12, the local priest approached my grandmother. The small town in Italy they lived in only provided up to a grade 6 education. The priest saw potential in my dad and convinced my grandmother to send him to the provincial capital to attend the Roman Catholic monastery. He would be educated and become a priest. My grandmother was torn about needing her son to help support the family ( my grandfather had died years earlier), and the honor of having her son become a priest. She decided to send him to the monastery.

After the third day at the monastery, my Dad waited until nightfall, scaled the walls and walked 40 km home in the dark. The story he told was that people at the monastery had stolen the socks my grandmother had knit for him. Plus he was unhappy and wanted to come home. My Dad told me this when I was a child of 10 or 11 when I asked him why we did not attend church. His message was, “ There are bad people in churches”

In retrospect, it is highly likely he had been sexually molested. The “men of God” he trusted had violated that trust....and God had not protected him. For a boy of 12, it was devastating. I now understand his feelings about the Roman Catholic Church and God.

He passed 40 years ago of cancer I did not weep until 10 years ago. I was at the Grand American. A severe storm rolled in and the shoot was suspended. My two best friends (both Christians that helped me find Christ) and I took refuge in the motor coach and a TV show about cancer came on. Started talking about my Dad and I lost it. Had to get out and I sat in the downpour for 20 minutes crying like a baby. Decades of loss poured out of me.

It bothers me that my Dad will not be granted eternal life. He is the best man I have ever known

It's easy to discuss the final state of non-Christians when dealing with hypotheticals. It becomes much harder when we are discussing actual people that we know lived good lives, but rejected God for whatever reason.

There are two things that help me with the issue:

1. The default condition for every human being is "lost." Everyone has sinned and the universal outcome of sinning is death. The default condition IS NOT bound for heaven, but lost because we reject God/Christ. It is an important distinction.

2. I do not believe the Bible teaches eternal torment for unbelievers. I believe those who are lost eventually find rest in obliteration. Death is a gift from God (Gen 3:22).

dverna
11-14-2019, 10:13 AM
Thank you Ickisrulz. Just a slight disagreement. We die not as a result of our sins, but because of the sin committed by Adam and Eve. Which, BTW, is another example I use to illustrate the injustice of God. We are condemned to death and suffering by actions that were not ours...but that is another topic. I agree we are not bound for heaven...we are designed (maybe predisposed is a better word) to sin. I understand the argument that God gives us choice and we can make good ones or bad ones...He does not want "puppets".
Without accepting Christ we cannot be cleansed of our sins.

I wonder about the statement "God made us in His image". Has God made less than perfect decisions as well? He speaks of regretting making man in Genesis just before the Flood when He attempts a do-over for mankind. Again...another subject outside of this thread.

BTW, I gain a lot from your posts on religious concepts. Read them all and I appreciate your postings.

Char-Gar
11-14-2019, 03:14 PM
The essence of sin is the denial of God as supreme moral authority. When one says that God is unjust, that falls smack in the middle of moral rebellion. The person who says that is saying, they and not God will determine what is just and unjust. That is dangerous ground on which to stand.

It behooves us all to remember that God is working on data base of knowledge and wisdom that transends the collective human understanding of anything. I recall a verse from one of James Weldon Johnson's poems..."Young man, your arms are too short to box with God.".

dverna
11-15-2019, 12:06 AM
Char-Gar, a better way to phrase it is, “At times God appears to be unjust to me. ”

God gave us the ability to think and reason. We do not have His wisdom and understanding. He will understand why I see some of His actions as unjust....due to my ignorance and hopefully forgive me

The most simple example is the death of a baby. I cannot wrap my brain around how that is just, but I concede it might be.

For example, My pastor preached that the death of the first baby of David and Bathsheba was God’s punishment for their affair. To me that seems unjust. The baby was not at fault, and God killed it to punish David and Bathsheba. Maybe my pastor is ignorant and that was not why the baby died....but that is how my pastor interpreted what happened. If that is incorrect, I would appreciate another explanation.

There are millions of other babies that have had their lives ended taken by God. They seem innocent but God requires their death. Why?

Why would an all powerful God that can address any need in the universe require the death of a baby to achieve His goals?

I believe God will not punish us for rational thought and will not view it as a sin.

Ickisrulz
11-15-2019, 10:41 AM
The most simple example is the death of a baby. I cannot wrap my brain around how that is just, but I concede it might be.

For example, My pastor preached that the death of the first baby of David and Bathsheba was God’s punishment for their affair. To me that seems unjust. The baby was not at fault, and God killed it to punish David and Bathsheba.

The first thing we have to concede is that we have no idea what happens to a person who dies as a baby. The Bible is completely silent on this. Over the centuries Christians have come up with ideas, but no one knows*.

The second thing to notice is that in David's case he made no objections about God's course of action. He seemed to think it was entirely reasonable. He trusted God, worshiped God after the child had died and made some interesting comments perhaps related to the afterlife. David might have known something we don't.

David's moral failing with Bathsheba had serious effects on the Nation of Israel. He lost his moral authority and was unable to act when his son raped his half sister (he was no longer a positive example to his family either). The rapist was killed by his brother, Absalom, who went on to rebel against the king and sleep with his David's women in public. Several thousand people were killed in the revolt against David, including Absalom.

*One thought is that a child who dies before the "age of accountability" will automatically be saved. Of course if a Christian really believes this, why fight so hard against abortion?

dverna
11-15-2019, 11:53 AM
The first thing we have to concede is that we have no idea what happens to a person who dies as a baby. The Bible is completely silent on this. Over the centuries Christians have come up with ideas, but no one knows*.

The second thing to notice is that in David's case he made no objections about God's course of action. He seemed to think it was entirely reasonable. He trusted God, worshiped God after the child had died and made some interesting comments perhaps related to the afterlife. David might have known something we don't.

David's moral failing with Bathsheba had serious effects on the Nation of Israel. He lost his moral authority and was unable to act when his son raped his half sister (he was no longer a positive example to his family either). The rapist was killed by his brother, Absalom, who went on to rebel against the king and sleep with his David's women in public. Several thousand people were killed in the revolt against David, including Absalom.

*One thought is that a child who dies before the "age of accountability" will automatically be saved. Of course if a Christian really believes this, why fight so hard against abortion?

At some point, a fetus is a person...I have heard arguments that a person is created upon conception...but I frankly do not know.

The issue with abortion is that it is murder...at least in my mind...because at some point the fetus becomes a person.

Not knowing when a fetus becomes a person, the "safe" option is to say "upon conception". Murder can not be condoned unless it is necessary to save a life. So, abortion may be acceptable to save the life of the mother. And even that is fraught with judgements....is the "innocent" life less valuable than the life of the mother. Does it matter if the mother has other children dependent upon her nurturing and caring for them?

Like so many subjects on God...I lack definitive answers. I see arguments that can be justified from different and sometimes opposite perspectives. Is abortion wrong always, sometimes or never? I lean towards always or sometimes...but I am not God and I am fortunate that I have never been faced with such a choice.

BTW, even if David thought it was entirely reasonable that the child should die...was it just for God to take the life of baby. David may have felt he deserved to be punished...but was the death of his baby a just act? Is a mother that believes it is entirely reasonable she should abort her baby doing the just thing?

Char-Gar
11-15-2019, 01:13 PM
Char-Gar, a better way to phrase it is, “At times God appears to be unjust to me. ”

I agree

God gave us the ability to think and reason. We do not have His wisdom and understanding. He will understand why I see some of His actions as unjust....due to my ignorance and hopefully forgive me

Ancient Jews expressed themselves in terms of first cause. In any chain of events they looked to the first link in the chain. EX: If I went to the top of a tall building and jumped off, folks today would say Charles killed himself. The ancient Jew would say that God killed Charles. Why? Because God created gravity and it was gravity that killed Charles. When we apply modern (Greco-Roman) thinking to ancient Jewish writting, we will be spun up around the axle very quickle. That is where you are, spun up around the axle, I mean.

The most simple example is the death of a baby. I cannot wrap my brain around how that is just, but I concede it might be.

For example, My pastor preached that the death of the first baby of David and Bathsheba was God’s punishment for their affair. To me that seems unjust. The baby was not at fault, and God killed it to punish David and Bathsheba. Maybe my pastor is ignorant and that was not why the baby died....but that is how my pastor interpreted what happened. If that is incorrect, I would appreciate another explanation.

There are millions of other babies that have had their lives ended taken by God. They seem innocent but God requires their death. Why?

I do not and will never believe that God requires the death of innocents. Once a person would spouting this stuff to John Wesley and Wesley replied. "Sir, you God is my Devil." I draw my understanding of the character and nature of God from what I know about Jesus. I don't see Jesus killing children. I see Jesus allowing himself to be killed for the sake of the world.

Why would an all powerful God that can address any need in the universe require the death of a baby to achieve His goals?

He did not and would not!

I believe God will not punish us for rational thought and will not view it as a sin.

Again I agree!



The New Testament teaches us that if we have seen the Son, we have seen the Father. The Father we see in Jesus is inconsistant with the God of the Old Testament, if we take the views and understanding of the ancient Hebrews as accurate. I do not. This is not to say that the OT does not tells us much about God, but if we can't seperate the religion of Israel from the revelation of God, then we will forever have problems with the justness of God.

There is much I can and should say on the OT vs. NT, but that would require many hours and an internet forum does not lend itself to that level of teaching. I will only say that if I HAD to accept the OT understanding of God, then I would never have become a Christian.

Char-Gar
11-15-2019, 01:37 PM
The first thing we have to concede is that we have no idea what happens to a person who dies as a baby. The Bible is completely silent on this. Over the centuries Christians have come up with ideas, but no one knows*.

The second thing to notice is that in David's case he made no objections about God's course of action. He seemed to think it was entirely reasonable. He trusted God, worshiped God after the child had died and made some interesting comments perhaps related to the afterlife. David might have known something we don't.

David's moral failing with Bathsheba had serious effects on the Nation of Israel. He lost his moral authority and was unable to act when his son raped his half sister (he was no longer a positive example to his family either). The rapist was killed by his brother, Absalom, who went on to rebel against the king and sleep with his David's women in public. Several thousand people were killed in the revolt against David, including Absalom.

*One thought is that a child who dies before the "age of accountability" will automatically be saved. Of course if a Christian really believes this, why fight so hard against abortion?

We fight against abortion, because it is murder to take a life, either before or after birth. It has nothing to do with the age of accountability of the child, it is about the actions of those taking his/her life.

Char-Gar
11-15-2019, 01:43 PM
BTW, even if David thought it was entirely reasonable that the child should die...was it just for God to take the life of baby. David may have felt he deserved to be punished...but was the death of his baby a just act? Is a mother that believes it is entirely reasonable she should abort her baby doing the just thing?

I for one, do not attribute the thinking of David, nor the thinking of an abortion minded woman to the thinking of God. Scripture is replete with example of humans who failed God and did the wrong thing. If there not so, then why would we need a Savior.

dverna
11-15-2019, 03:01 PM
Char-Gar

You make a lot of sense. Most of my difficulties are rooted with the writings of the OT. The NT is “refreshing” by comparison.

I am attending an Evangelical church that requires we accept the inerrancy of the Bible to become a member. This church has a phenomenal pastor and that is why I attend. And accepting the OT as “perfect” is likely never going to occur for me.

As you put it, “I am spun around the axle!” Trying to make it all fit and reconciling God as the Hebrews viewed Him from the God that Jesus showed us creates the disconnect I struggle with.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and giving me a better understanding.

Ickisrulz
11-15-2019, 03:08 PM
We fight against abortion, because it is murder to take a life, either before or after birth. It has nothing to do with the age of accountability of the child, it is about the actions of those taking his/her life.

I don't disagree with what you have written. I just pointed out a paradox and wasn't actually asking a question.

It's funny how you and dverna concentrated on my comments about abortion when it was an aside to my post.

My main point was we have no idea what happens to an infant that dies and that human life extends beyond our time on earth.

Char-Gar
11-16-2019, 12:48 PM
Char-Gar

You make a lot of sense. Most of my difficulties are rooted with the writings of the OT. The NT is “refreshing” by comparison.

I am attending an Evangelical church that requires we accept the inerrancy of the Bible to become a member. This church has a phenomenal pastor and that is why I attend. And accepting the OT as “perfect” is likely never going to occur for me.

As you put it, “I am spun around the axle!” Trying to make it all fit and reconciling God as the Hebrews viewed Him from the God that Jesus showed us creates the disconnect I struggle with.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and giving me a better understanding.

You are quite welcome. What I have learned has come about through hard study, reflection and many years. On the theological spectrum of American Christianity, I fall into the Evangelical camp. However within that camp are many different shades and groupings.

The term inerrancy is certainly a loaded term and it means quite a few different things to different people. For the far right, it means that each word in the Bible holds the same value as each other word. I commonly refer this to the "flat book" understanding of inerrancy and I do not buy into that.

There is another broad camp that understands the Bible to be "plenary inspired", this means that God inspired the whole man or woman. This makes room for individual points of view, different personalities, context and culture. The ancient Hebrew was a different breed of cats, even from the modern Hebrew. The Old Testament is essentialy ancient Asian writings, which brings with it a very different way of looking at the world and communicating what is seen and heard. The ancient Hebrew mind processed stuff and expressed stuff in ways that at times is opaque to us.

We were born into a Western culture whose thought patterns follow Greco-Roman logic. The New Testament writters stood astride of both the ancient Asian and Greco-Roman world. The early church experienced it greatest grown in the Greco-Roman world, and that created no end of of disputes and conflict within the early church. Thankfully folks like Saul (Paul) of Tarsus knew how to communicate the Good News to the Greco-Roman mind and the Ancient Hebrew mind as well.

Denying the influence of personality, history, culture and context of any Scripture, will get many people spun up around the Axle and when it comes to matters of faith, this is not a good thing. In the end, our faith is all about Jesus. If we keep our eyes on Him and don't get distracted by Ancient Hebrew writting, we will push on.

There is allot to learn from the Old Testament about God and his efforts to save a rebellious, sinful and fallen race of people. This wonderful story however is contained in some pretty funky writtings that often misdirect our thinking.

Char-Gar
11-16-2019, 12:58 PM
I don't disagree with what you have written. I just pointed out a paradox and wasn't actually asking a question.

It's funny how you and dverna concentrated on my comments about abortion when it was an aside to my post.

My main point was we have no idea what happens to an infant that dies and that human life extends beyond our time on earth.

I think we do have a pretty good idea what happens to the soul/spirit of an infant. A through study of scripture produces a strong understanding of "prevenient grace". This simply means the grace which goes before. Scripture teaches us that God loves us before we knew him. God's grace does not start when we know and accept His grace. God's grace is active even within the womb. The child who does not survive either the womb or early childhood, is well protected by prevenient grace. They are with our loving and gracious creator God.

This I so believe and have told to many parents who have lost children at a young age. This is a very ancient theological understanding of this matter in the Church. I didn't think it up.

Ickisrulz
11-16-2019, 01:17 PM
I think we do have a pretty good idea what happens to the soul/spirit of an infant. A through study of scripture produces a strong understanding of "prevenient grace". This simply means the grace which goes before. Scripture teaches us that God loves us before we knew him. God's grace does not start when we know and accept His grace. God's grace is active even within the womb. The child who does not survive either the womb or early childhood, is well protected by prevenient grace. They are with our loving and gracious creator God.

This I so believe and have told to many parents who have lost children at a young age. This is a very ancient theological understanding of this matter in the Church. I didn't think it up.

If everything you wrote is the way things actually work (I'm not saying it isn't because I am not sure) then it would have been better for most people if they had not been born.

Of course I am making the assumption that most human beings will not be saved.

Char-Gar
11-16-2019, 01:27 PM
If everything you wrote is the way things actually work (I'm not saying it isn't because I am not sure) then it would have been better for most people if they had not been born.

Of course I am making the assumption that most human beings will not be saved.

God has chosen to use grown humans as His primary working tools in this world, to acts in His stead. This is well set out in the Genesis story of creaton. This is the prime concern. Just taking all unborn souls unto him, works against His stated purpose.

All CAN be saved, but not all WILL be saved. There is that pesky matter of free will. It is our task to gather as many into His Kingdom is possible. Many are lost because of indolent churches and christians.

Ickisrulz
11-16-2019, 01:38 PM
God has chosen to use grown humans as His primary working tools in this world, to acts in His stead. This is well set out in the Genesis story of creaton. This is the prime concern. Just taking all unborn souls unto him, works against His stated purpose.

All CAN be saved, but not all WILL be saved. There is that pesky matter of free will. It is our task to gather as many into His Kingdom is possible. Many are lost because of indolent churches and christians.

I agree with everything in your post.

My point is, if a person is condemned because of his free will choices, it would have been better for him if his free will had been taken away (i.e., he didn't survive birth and childhood) and he got a free pass to heaven.

Char-Gar
11-16-2019, 01:39 PM
Just wanted to add something. One of the things that bothers me the most is what I perceive as the injustice of God....let me explain.

No one can enter heaven unless they accept Jesus as their Savior. My father dismissed God and religion completely, so he will not be saved. Yet, my father was a very good man. My father commanded my respect and obedience by his presence and intelligence. He never once struck us, but guided us with his example and strength of character. He is why I became an atheist.

He came from Italy in 1930 not being able to speak English and became moderately successful without ever cheating his customers. His rejection of God started much earlier

When he was 12, the local priest approached my grandmother. The small town in Italy they lived in only provided up to a grade 6 education. The priest saw potential in my dad and convinced my grandmother to send him to the provincial capital to attend the Roman Catholic monastery. He would be educated and become a priest. My grandmother was torn about needing her son to help support the family ( my grandfather had died years earlier), and the honor of having her son become a priest. She decided to send him to the monastery.

After the third day at the monastery, my Dad waited until nightfall, scaled the walls and walked 40 km home in the dark. The story he told was that people at the monastery had stolen the socks my grandmother had knit for him. Plus he was unhappy and wanted to come home. My Dad told me this when I was a child of 10 or 11 when I asked him why we did not attend church. His message was, “ There are bad people in churches”

In retrospect, it is highly likely he had been sexually molested. The “men of God” he trusted had violated that trust....and God had not protected him. For a boy of 12, it was devastating. I now understand his feelings about the Roman Catholic Church and God.

He passed 40 years ago of cancer I did not weep until 10 years ago. I was at the Grand American. A severe storm rolled in and the shoot was suspended. My two best friends (both Christians that helped me find Christ) and I took refuge in the motor coach and a TV show about cancer came on. Started talking about my Dad and I lost it. Had to get out and I sat in the downpour for 20 minutes crying like a baby. Decades of loss poured out of me.

It bothers me that my Dad will not be granted eternal life. He is the best man I have ever known

That issue has bothered many, many people. However, the whole disturbing issue is predicated on an statement that may or may not be true. Yes, I believe that we must accept Christ, but the assumption is that death cuts off all possibility of making that choice. In 1st. Peter 4:6 it is written that Christ went to the dead and proclaimed the Good News to them. Who is to say this is not ongoing? I am not going to say that.

I know that God is gracious, loving and just and wil leave such matters to Him.

dverna
11-16-2019, 02:47 PM
I agree with everything in your post.

My point is, if a person is condemned because of his free will choices, it would have been better for him if his free will had been taken away (i.e., he didn't survive birth and childhood) and he got a free pass to heaven.

I have seen a child steal, lie, and beat up a smaller child etc, etc. They have committed sins because they too have free will. So their free will has not been "taken away". Rather, God may give them a "free pass", because they have not yet been exposed to, understand, or be able to accept Jesus as their savior. In this case ignorance/immaturity does warrant the "free pass". I suspect the same "free pass" is given to those who are mentally handicapped and lack the understanding to accept Jesus.

An adult is different. I can only speak to my experience, but if anyone had told me years ago that I would believe in God and Jesus I would have ridiculed them. I think even ardent atheists receive messages from God and the Holy Spirit. And not just one attempt either. But the atheist needs an open mind to hear the Spirit. For many, they may need to hit bottom before they listen or try to find hope. I was lucky that was not my case. God put two Christians into my life who became my closest friends, then I began reading the posts in the Chapel on this forum...those influences affected my atheism. Now, I am blessed with a fiancé who is also a believer.

We have the choice to listen to or ignore Gods messages to us. He does not want us to fail, but he allows us to fail.

Black Jaque Janaviac
12-17-2019, 06:45 PM
Jesus “died” on the cross for our sins. But God cannot die....Jesus certainly suffered but He did not die.

IMHO, many Christians seem to over rate His sacrifice.

When I was an atheist, I had no illusions of everlasting life, yet I would have died to save my children. I think every decent person would do the same.

Jesus “died” knowing he would not die....not much sacrifice there. Jesus “died” to provide a path to salvation for billions of God’s children. We would die to save one of our children.

Should we be grateful that He gave us a way to salvation....CERTAINLY!!

Was it much of a sacrifice....not in the big scheme of things.
I get what you mean. It is sort of like Superman charging into a hailstorm of bullets - it ain't exactly brave when you know you're bullet proof.
Perhaps Jesus knew he would come back to life, but I think you have to admit he did die. Perhaps the knowledge that He would come back to life somewhat diminishes the sacrifice, but the fact that he also knew it was entirely voluntary greatly increased the magnitude. God, the creator of the universe was being crucified by little peons. As they hurled the insults Jesus could have been thinking, "you have no idea... I could squash you like an ant you little..."

Also, St. Paul mentioned that he makes up for what is lacking. So whatever you think might diminish the suffering of Christ - there is a saint who has experienced it. Christ didn't have a abusive parents? So what? There are oodles of saints who did.

Ickisrulz
12-17-2019, 07:51 PM
I get what you mean. It is sort of like Superman charging into a hailstorm of bullets - it ain't exactly brave when you know you're bullet proof.
Perhaps Jesus knew he would come back to life, but I think you have to admit he did die. Perhaps the knowledge that He would come back to life somewhat diminishes the sacrifice...

For the Christian, we all believe that once we die we will be with God. Does anyone want to volunteer to be stripped naked, have their flesh whipped off their back and then be nailed to some boards for a slow, certain death? Not very many will because the experience is very real. Knowing that he would come back to life did not diminish Jesus' humiliation and pain.

How many would stand back while their son was stripped naked, have their flesh whipped off their back and then be nailed to some boards for a slow, certain death? Why not? They'll be with Jesus when it's all over, right?

1hole
12-18-2019, 01:23 PM
..... Knowing that he would come back to life did not diminish Jesus' humiliation and pain.

How many would stand back while their son was stripped naked, have their flesh whipped off their back and then be nailed to some boards for a slow, certain death? Why not? They'll be with Jesus when it's all over, right?

Well put. Outlandish contemplations of pompous arm chair "interlecsuls" trying to minimise Jesus would immediately be reversed if they were facing what he faced in our place.

Black Jaque Janaviac
12-20-2019, 12:01 PM
Gentlemen, please give weight to my use of the word "perhaps" in my post. Understand that I do not necessarily believe that knowledge of rising from the dead undid any of the pain. Actually I could make the counter argument that the agony in the garden proves that this knowledge made it worse. Christ knew what He was in for and dreaded it. My post was intended to entertain the idea for the sake of argument.

1hole
12-21-2019, 11:11 AM
... Christ knew what He was in for and dreaded it. My post was intended to entertain the idea for the sake of argument.

Sooo .... it worked.

dverna
12-21-2019, 12:23 PM
Well put. Outlandish contemplations of pompous arm chair "interlecsuls" trying to minimise Jesus would immediately be reversed if they were facing what he faced in our place.

I assumed that the vast majority of us would suffer torture and death to save our children...so maybe I was wrong about that. Thus my opinion that the death of Jesus is no more of a sacrifice than most mortal men would endure to achieve salvation for their children. But if you believe most men would not save their children, then I understand why your opinion is different.

BTW, I am grateful for His sacrifice as it is the only way I could ever have a chance for eternal life. But I know both my father and mother would have died to save me as well. They would have died with no expectation of going to back to Heaven as Jesus had. So, in my eyes, it would have been a greater sacrifice than that of Jesus. Jesus died to save billions of His children....my parents would die to save one. My perspective is different but it is an honest one. If I am one of those "arm chair "interlecsuls", so be it. God gave us intelligence and choice for a reason. If He wanted puppets, He could have done so. Regrettably, most churches want puppets as it makes things so much easier for them...God is different.

Thundarstick
12-21-2019, 10:15 PM
dverna, the real question then becomes, would one of your parents have died to save a strangers kid, one whose family even hated your "kind"?

For while we where YET sinners, Christ died for us!

dverna
12-21-2019, 10:35 PM
dverna, the real question then becomes, would one of your parents have died to save a strangers kid, one whose family even hated your "kind"?

For while we where YET sinners, Christ died for us!

I believe the question is incorrect because we are all God’s children.

I can speak for myself....I would not undergo what Jesus suffered to save a child I did not know....I am too selfish.

A more relevant question is...would any man do it to save mankind? As Jesus did? I believe there are some men who would. That is worth considering is it not?

Black Jaque Janaviac
12-22-2019, 07:52 PM
Sooo .... it worked.

:-P

Yup. Just didn't want people getting the wrong impression.

a danl
03-05-2020, 03:27 PM
Just wanted to add something. One of the things that bothers me the most is what I perceive as the injustice of God....let me explain.

No one can enter heaven unless they accept Jesus as their Savior. My father dismissed God and religion completely, so he will not be saved. Yet, my father was a very good man. My father commanded my respect and obedience by his presence and intelligence. He never once struck us, but guided us with his example and strength of character. He is why I became an atheist.

He came from Italy in 1930 not being able to speak English and became moderately successful without ever cheating his customers. His rejection of God started much earlier

When he was 12, the local priest approached my grandmother. The small town in Italy they lived in only provided up to a grade 6 education. The priest saw potential in my dad and convinced my grandmother to send him to the provincial capital to attend the Roman Catholic monastery. He would be educated and become a priest. My grandmother was torn about needing her son to help support the family ( my grandfather had died years earlier), and the honor of having her son become a priest. She decided to send him to the monastery.

After the third day at the monastery, my Dad waited until nightfall, scaled the walls and walked 40 km home in the dark. The story he told was that people at the monastery had stolen the socks my grandmother had knit for him. Plus he was unhappy and wanted to come home. My Dad told me this when I was a child of 10 or 11 when I asked him why we did not attend church. His message was, “ There are bad people in churches”

In retrospect, it is highly likely he had been sexually molested. The “men of God” he trusted had violated that trust....and God had not protected him. For a boy of 12, it was devastating. I now understand his feelings about the Roman Catholic Church and God.

He passed 40 years ago of cancer I did not weep until 10 years ago. I was at the Grand American. A severe storm rolled in and the shoot was suspended. My two best friends (both Christians that helped me find Christ) and I took refuge in the motor coach and a TV show about cancer came on. Started talking about my Dad and I lost it. Had to get out and I sat in the downpour for 20 minutes crying like a baby. Decades of loss poured out of me.

It bothers me that my Dad will not be granted eternal life. He is the best man I have ever known

don, i'm truly sorry , that is a sad story however, there is a verse that tells us that 'all things work for the good to those who love the lord according to his purpose' don this could have a big impact for you , sometimes we may never see the good but assuredly in may even happen in the next generation . god is good , always.

a danl
03-06-2020, 05:34 PM
look at it this way,,,,,,,,, we had a debt that we couldn't pay ,,, and Jesus paid the debt that He didn't owe..............all on and for our behalf.when He died on that cross he not only suffered the agonizing pains at the cross, He also suffered our pains that we deserved to suffer in hell. to me i will never be able while here on this earth be able to pay him back for what He has done for me alone, except praise Him and show Him a humble thankfulness by spreading the gospel of Christ so that others can enjoy Him as well. EPHESIANS 2 vs 8/9

dtknowles
03-06-2020, 08:39 PM
look at it this way,,,,,,,,, we had a debt that we couldn't pay ,,, and Jesus paid the debt that He didn't owe..............all on and for our behalf.when He died on that cross he not only suffered the agonizing pains at the cross, He also suffered our pains that we deserved to suffer in hell. to me i will never be able while here on this earth be able to pay him back for what He has done for me alone, except praise Him and show Him a humble thankfulness by spreading the gospel of Christ so that others can enjoy Him as well. EPHESIANS 2 vs 8/9

Exactly what debt did you have that you could not pay back? When did you accrue that debt?

Tim

Ickisrulz
03-06-2020, 10:14 PM
Exactly what debt did you have that you could not pay back? When did you accrue that debt?

Tim

If you really did teach the Bible way back in the day, you should know the answer to this question. So why ask it? To make a point, start an argument, or get people all worked up? If you don't know the answer to your question, then maybe you turned your back on something you truly don't understand.

dtknowles
03-07-2020, 03:06 AM
If you really did teach the Bible way back in the day, you should know the answer to this question. So why ask it? To make a point, start an argument, or get people all worked up? If you don't know the answer to your question, then maybe you turned your back on something you truly don't understand.

I know what I was taught to teach and I came to understand it was a lie. I don't believe in Original Sin. We each are born with a clean slate and really cannot sin until we come to the age of awareness for each wrong we might do. A child that does not understand what they are doing wrong is not sinning.

I asked the question to try and get the person I asked it of to think deeper, think deep theology instead of just accepting what the Bible says. There is no depth of thinking if you just parrot back something from a book without being able to understand the underlying concept and question the concept. Questioning a concept is not rejecting it. Explore the idea and if then you accept it, you really own it.

Do you accept the idea of Original Sin? Can you explain what debt we are born with? Can you explain why each person is not born with a clean slate? Do you believe we are born predisposition to evil? Do you believe we are born bad and are only good if we come to Jesus? Why do you believe that? Can you explain it without resorting to the bible? Is your belief just because of the Bible?

I taught the Roman Catholic Church Catechism that baptism removes original sin to the degree that what remains is not sinful but the sinful nature that remains is real sin. I taught that until I had an epiphany that revealed to me that there is no Original Sin and that people are not predisposition to evil, it is learned, learned from society.

Tim

dverna
03-07-2020, 09:07 AM
Tim,
I have issues with "original sin"....it certainly was not the result of Adam and Eve. It occurred in heaven with Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels. And the Lord permitted it to happen. Above my pay scale to comprehend why...but no other conclusion makes sense if someone believes God is omniscient.

The other issue I have is how the Bible presents it. It casts God a wrathful, unjust and unloving God. The sins of Adam and Eve are used to punish mankind for eternity. Nothing "just" or "loving" about that. IMHO, God knew He screwed up on that one. But my thoughts on that and what He did to correct it are for another time.

The church I attend is an Evangelical E-Free. It teaches we are born basically evil and sinners with little "goodness" in us. I do not buy it completely....my own experience tells me we have the capacity for both. Watch a pack of wolves...they have the capacity of immense love and caring for those in their pack....yet will rip apart someone from another pack. Of course, man is not as "good" as a wolf...many cheat, steal, abuse and even kill members of our family.

Ickisrulz
03-07-2020, 09:42 AM
Tim,
I have issues with "original sin"....it certainly was not the result of Adam and Eve. It occurred in heaven with Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels. And the Lord permitted it to happen. Above my pay scale to comprehend why...but no other conclusion makes sense if someone believes God is omniscient.

The other issue I have is how the Bible presents it. It casts God a wrathful, unjust and unloving God. The sins of Adam and Eve are used to punish mankind for eternity. Nothing "just" or "loving" about that. IMHO, God knew He screwed up on that one. But my thoughts on that and what He did to correct it are for another time.

The church I attend is an Evangelical E-Free. It teaches we are born basically evil and sinners with little "goodness" in us. I do not buy it completely....my own experience tells me we have the capacity for both. Watch a pack of wolves...they have the capacity of immense love and caring for those in their pack....yet will rip apart someone from another pack. Of course, man is not as "good" as a wolf...many cheat, steal, abuse and even kill members of our family.

While sin entered the world through Adam's transgression, people are only held accountable for their own sins. How the sinful nature is passed from one generation to another is not clear. But all you have to do is watch a child behave selfishly (they all do it) and you'll see the sinful nature in its early stages (sin is nothing but selfishness).

The Bible does not teach the total depravity of man. It actually gives many examples of the opposite and even Jesus recognizes man's natural capacity for doing good. Man is less of what he could be because of his sinful nature.

trapper44shooter
03-07-2020, 12:35 PM
No indeed matter a fact it needs to be told more now a days than ever before

1hole
03-07-2020, 01:03 PM
The Bible does not teach the total depravity of man. It actually gives many examples of the opposite and even Jesus recognizes man's natural capacity for doing good. Man is less of what he could be because of his sinful nature.

Calvanist's "Total Depravity" doesn't mean what secular men usually take it to mean. In context, total depravity is referring to the spiritual nature of men, not the moral; many lost people do many good things! (I say "Calvinist's" because Calvin didn't say that.)

Spiritual depravity means there is nothing in man's nature that causes him to (rightfully) think about spiritual things. Total Spiritual Depravity is a part of what drives some non-believers to read scripture, misread its message and then argue against both God and his Bible. Sadly, we get a lot of that right here and they call it "deep thinker's theology"! :(

dverna
03-07-2020, 01:08 PM
While sin entered the world through Adam's transgression, people are only held accountable for their own sins. How the sinful nature is passed from one generation to another is not clear. But all you have to do is watch a child behave selfishly (they all do it) and you'll see the sinful nature in its early stages (sin is nothing but selfishness).

The Bible does not teach the total depravity of man. It actually gives many examples of the opposite and even Jesus recognizes man's natural capacity for doing good. Man is less of what he could be because of his sinful nature.

I disagree my friend. Genesis 3:16 - 3:19 Man has suffered due to the sins of Adam and Eve. And death entered the world because of their sin...not ours.

roadie
03-07-2020, 01:19 PM
This whole thing with "original sin" parallels an abusive family relationship. You've got a child who has been taught that he/she was born a filthy piece of muck, and will always be, unless they shape up. That kid will try everything to please the abuser, often their father, and most times will feel love towards the abuser. They're taught that they should love and respect someone who treats them like dirt.....cause that kid was born bad, it's all their fault.

But, that's what the bible teaches. The entirety of humanity is cursed, saddled with the responsibility of cleaning up the dirt that Adam and Eve made. Born sinners and will be dealt with as such, unless we confess to all our sins, even if we don't know how we sinned. We must have sinned though cause that's what we do, we're born sinners.......and that's a loving and fair god that should be loved and respected, even when that loving and fair god lays into us with the belt because of our transgressions.

Many believers will flat out tell you your house burned down, or your dog died cause you sinned. It all appears to be a control mechanism and it's created the best example of Stockholm Syndrome you'll ever see in which the victims form a sympathetic bond with the very one which is abusing them. That, or a whole lot of people are into being treated like a filthy piece of muck......either one is somewhat disturbing.

a danl
03-07-2020, 01:46 PM
Tim,
I have issues with "original sin"....it certainly was not the result of Adam and Eve. It occurred in heaven with Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels. And the Lord permitted it to happen. Above my pay scale to comprehend why...but no other conclusion makes sense if someone believes God is omniscient.

The other issue I have is how the Bible presents it. It casts God a wrathful, unjust and unloving God. The sins of Adam and Eve are used to punish mankind for eternity. Nothing "just" or "loving" about that. IMHO, God knew He screwed up on that one. But my thoughts on that and what He did to correct it are for another time.

The church I attend is an Evangelical E-Free. It teaches we are born basically evil and sinners with little "goodness" in us. I do not buy it completely....my own experience tells me we have the capacity for both. Watch a pack of wolves...they have the capacity of immense love and caring for those in their pack....yet will rip apart someone from another pack. Of course, man is not as "good" as a wolf...many cheat, steal, abuse and even kill members of our family.

original sin refers to mankind not angels. adam was the first man who was responsible to God for all of mankind , when he sinned we inherited that sin just as if we ourselves did. we didn't have any choice in the matter just as we didn't have a choice to the color of our eyes or hair. just look at ones heart , as it says in genesis "our heart is only evil continually"....don't blame God for the sin , SATIN is the one who deserves the blame, he caused it from the very beginning when he wanted to be greater than God.. i"ll say this with my own words that God "drained the swamp in heaven " when He cast satin and his followers out of heaven.

1hole
03-07-2020, 02:28 PM
....They're taught that they should love and respect someone who treats them like dirt.....cause that kid was born bad, it's all their fault.

But, that's what the bible teaches. The entirety of humanity is cursed, saddled with the responsibility of cleaning up the dirt that Adam and Eve made.

No it isn't, that's just YOUR (mis)interpretation!


We are born sinners and will be dealt with as such, unless we confess to all our sins, even if we don't know how we sinned. We must have sinned though cause that's what we do, we're born sinners......

Sinning is indeed what we all do. No one has to teach an infant to have furious rages, no one has to teach a young child to lie. Sinning is in our human nature from day one, we inherited it.


.... and that's a loving and fair god that should be loved and respected,

That loving God gives us rules for life and then, in love, has taken upon himself to pay the penalty for our failures.


.... even when that loving and fair god lays into us with the belt because of our transgressions.

No. In this life, God only punishes his own children for known and deliberate sin, and then only enough to get the rebellious child's attention. He has no need in this life to punish those who reject their heavenly Father, he'll deal with them later.


Many believers will flat out tell you your house burned down, or your dog died cause you sinned.

Those believers are wrong - God does not burn houses down nor kill dogs in spite - but you're blaming God for their wrongs; is that fair to Him? It seems to make you in the image of the imaginary harsh god you reject!


It all appears to be a control mechanism and it's created the best example of Stockholm Syndrome you'll ever see in which the victims form a sympathetic bond with the very one which is abusing them. That, or a whole lot of people are into being treated like a filthy piece of muck......either one is somewhat disturbing.

I wonder what kind of relationship you had with your father; I'd bet it wasn't good. Sorry about things like that but a lot of us endured emotionally difficult beginnings.

Some of us who were badly treated in our youth find the peace we need thru our faith in the loving Lord Jesus and Father; we can now look back and see it was He who held us up and took us through it all. That kind of returned love has nothing in common with Stockholm.

It's become common in these snowflake days to blame the wrongs we see or difficulties we experience in this life as responsibilities of God or other people. You seem understandably angry about the injustices we all see but perhaps you shouldn't project your own angry image on our loving and infallible God ... OR His well meaning but very fallible people.

roadie
03-07-2020, 03:58 PM
No it isn't, that's just YOUR (mis)interpretation!



Sinning is indeed what we all do. No one has to teach an infant to have furious rages, no one has to teach a young child to lie. Sinning is in our human nature from day one, we inherited it.



That loving God gives us rules for life and then, in love, has taken upon himself to pay the penalty for our failures.



No. In this life, God only punishes his own children for known and deliberate sin, and then only enough to get the rebellious child's attention. He has no need in this life to punish those who reject their heavenly Father, he'll deal with them later.



Those believers are wrong - God does not burn houses down nor kill dogs in spite - but you're blaming God for their wrongs; is that fair to Him? It seems to make you in the image of the imaginary harsh god you reject!



I wonder what kind of relationship you had with your father; I'd bet it wasn't good. Sorry about things like that but a lot of us endured emotionally difficult beginnings.

Some of us who were badly treated in our youth find the peace we need thru our faith in the loving Lord Jesus and Father; we can now look back and see it was He who held us up and took us through it all. That kind of returned love has nothing in common with Stockholm.

It's become common in these snowflake days to blame the wrongs we see or difficulties we experience in this life as responsibilities of God or other people. You seem understandably angry about the injustices we all see but perhaps you shouldn't project your own angry image on our loving and infallible God ... OR His well meaning but very fallible people.




Actually, there is every chance that you in fact, are misinterpreting the bible, and it wouldn't be surprising as the bible is interpreted differently by pretty much everyone. Nobody, including you, is an authority on the bible, an impossible task when the provenance and accuracy of the bible itself can't be shown.

No, sinning is not some inherited nature, it's simply what believers have labelled the basic behavior of the critters that humans are. An infant has a furious rage because it is experiencing something it doesn't understand, and so reverts to instinct. As the infant grows, it hopefully also learns to adapt in a more productive manner.

I never said god burns houses down, or kills dogs, that's what many believers will tell you.......not me. But you gotta admit, perusing the bible will give anyone the sense that you're dealing with a pretty harsh entity here, entire world wiped out in a flood, famines, pestilence........best to mind your p's and q's with this entity, or you're getting smote like nobody's business.

My relationship with my father was actually very good, he taught me to think for myself and not accept on face value what the crowd was following. He taught me to question everything because everything known comes from mankind, and that's a very questionable species.

I'm not in any way angry about wrongs, or perceived injustices in the world, nor do I blame them on some entity which may, or may not, exist. These wrongs and injustices are simply the result of critters being critters.......it's just what we do. We do like to have a good cover for them though, and the bible works well for that.

Ickisrulz
03-07-2020, 04:17 PM
I disagree my friend. Genesis 3:16 - 3:19 Man has suffered due to the sins of Adam and Eve. And death entered the world because of their sin...not ours.

We are talking about two different things. Sin entered the world because of Adam's transgression. That meant a harder path for man that would include increased pain, harder work and eventual physical death. We are all in that together (Paul said "we are one blood"). But each individual man will have to answer for what they did on earth not what Adam did in the garden.

I wrote this in another thread:

It was God’s intention that man learn the difference between good and evil. The learning was to take place within the bounds that he prescribed. Man was to obey God’s directions (e.g., don’t eat from a certain tree--certainly more commands were to come). When man disobeyed, he was placed on another path of learning. It was a much more difficult path because it brought in willing participation in sin. With that participation, came pain, suffering, hard work and death. Man was to learn why sin is harmful.

Jesus’ path of learning followed God’s original intention. Jesus obeyed God’s commands wholly and learned the difference between good and evil without being a sinner. This was what God wanted for Adam and Eve. Jesus suffered because of the sin in the world, but was not a willing participant in sin as are the rest of us. He was tempted as Adam was in the Garden, but passed every test (remember how Satan misquoted God to Jesus as he had to Eve).

Man is immersed in sin his whole life. He can see the adverse results of sin. Therefore, redeemed men will not engage in sin in the Age to come. He will have gained the knowledge God wanted him to have. Unfortunately, he learned it the hard way.

dverna
03-07-2020, 05:27 PM
Sin entered the world because God cast Lucifer and the angels that followed Lucifer onto the earth. Sin was in place to tempt Eve and then Adam before they saw the forbidden fruit.

God could have cast sin to where it could not have influenced man...He did not. There is a good reason, but I do not know why.

And if God actually does know everything that will happen in the future (which, as an Open Theist, I do not believe) He knew exactly what would happen. The free choice of man affected God’s plan....and it angered him.

If you put a chocolate cake in front of a 2 year old, can you get angry enough to punish the child when they go for it? Especially if you know they will go for it? This is the first examples that supports that God’s omniscience is only complete wrt the past and present....He does not know every detail of future events.

Ickisrulz
03-07-2020, 08:36 PM
Sin entered the world because God cast Lucifer and the angels that followed Lucifer onto the earth. Sin was in place to tempt Eve and then Adam before they saw the forbidden fruit.

God could have cast sin to where it could not have influenced man...He did not. There is a good reason, but I do not know why.

And if God actually does know everything that will happen in the future (which, as an Open Theist, I do not believe) He knew exactly what would happen. The free choice of man affected God’s plan....and it angered him.

If you put a chocolate cake in front of a 2 year old, can you get angry enough to punish the child when they go for it? Especially if you know they will go for it? This is the first examples that supports that God’s omniscience is only complete wrt the past and present....He does not know every detail of future events.

Speaking in technicalities, Eve was deceived and Adam transgressed. According to Paul, this event is how sin entered the human race. Satan presented an option that man would have eventually found for himself.

dtknowles
03-07-2020, 09:55 PM
original sin refers to mankind not angels. adam was the first man who was responsible to God for all of mankind , when he sinned we inherited that sin just as if we ourselves did. we didn't have any choice in the matter just as we didn't have a choice to the color of our eyes or hair. just look at ones heart , as it says in genesis "our heart is only evil continually"....don't blame God for the sin , SATIN is the one who deserves the blame, he caused it from the very beginning when he wanted to be greater than God.. i"ll say this with my own words that God "drained the swamp in heaven " when He cast satin and his followers out of heaven.

"Adam was the first man who was responsible to God for all of mankind when he sinned we inherited that sin just as if we ourselves did." I don't buy that. Why would you believe that. How does it matter to me what Adam did or did not do. Beside, Genesis is a parable and there was not Adam or Eve. No tree of knowledge, no serpent, no temptations from Satan.

It is just a story about the awakening self-awareness that is identified as the evolution of Homo Sapiens into Homo Sapiens Sapiens. Stone age humans to modern humans. By that definition Original Sin would be humans becoming intelligent and self-aware. Yes and maybe selfish but I expect humans were selfish before we were intelligent and self-aware. It is incredible that God would forbid us the fruits of the tree of knowledge. Did God not want us to be knowledgeable?

If you are one of those people who believe the Bible is the literal truth, greater understanding, for you, is out of reach. Do you really believe Tree, Apple, Serpent thing really happened? The Universe was created in 7 days?

I can't believe that Churches teach children that these things are true and don't explain that they are parables and then explain the lessons to be learned from the fictional stories.

See why I had to stop teaching Catechism.

Tim

a danl
03-08-2020, 01:12 PM
"adam was the first man who was responsible to god for all of mankind when he sinned we inherited that sin just as if we ourselves did." i don't buy that. Why would you believe that. How does it matter to me what adam did or did not do. Beside, genesis is a parable and there was not adam or eve. No tree of knowledge, no serpent, no temptations from satan.

It is just a story about the awakening self-awareness that is identified as the evolution of homo sapiens into homo sapiens sapiens. Stone age humans to modern humans. By that definition original sin would be humans becoming intelligent and self-aware. Yes and maybe selfish but i expect humans were selfish before we were intelligent and self-aware. It is incredible that god would forbid us the fruits of the tree of knowledge. Did god not want us to be knowledgeable?

If you are one of those people who believe the bible is the literal truth, greater understanding, for you, is out of reach. Do you really believe tree, apple, serpent thing really happened? The universe was created in 7 days?

I can't believe that churches teach children that these things are true and don't explain that they are parables and then explain the lessons to be learned from the fictional stories.

See why i had to stop teaching catechism.

Tim

yes tim, i do believe the bible is true. I would also love to know where you get all your information from.

dverna
03-08-2020, 02:37 PM
Speaking in technicalities, Eve was deceived and Adam transgressed. According to Paul, this event is how sin entered the human race. Satan presented an option that man would have eventually found for himself.

This is an interesting perspective...."man would have eventually found for himself". It explains why God cast Lucifer and his followers to earth instead of somewhere were evil would not be found. God wanted man to find evil.... I suspect, God wanted that to happen on His terms but Adam and Eve found out on their own the "hard" way. There was a whole universe to work with but God picks the earth for Lucifer. God wanted man to know evil...maybe He even needed man to know evil???

We will never know what God had planned. God could have destroyed Adam and Eve and tried a do-over...as He attempted with the Great Flood. I am left wondering....Did God plan for and/or foresee the "free will" of Adam and Eve, or did he react to the "free will" of Adam and Eve? It looks that God reacted, but that may be due to how I am reading and interpreting that section of Genesis.

It is one reason I have drifted to Open Theism. There are a number of times in the Bible where God is influenced by man in His decisions. God knows the past and the present and He does not change it (either unable to or unwilling to). God does not know the future 100% perfectly, but He can influence it.

It makes praying to God for some of the "silly" things we want (new car, better job, winning the game, selling our home for a profit, etc) more plausible. If er believe we can appeal to, and influence God to intercede in what will happen in the future prayer makes sense. If God already knows what will happen, what is the use of praying for things and results we want...are we not praying for the results He wants?

popper
03-08-2020, 05:07 PM
Jesus certainly suffered but He did not die. ops, He did die. Actually he was severely tortured! Ouch! Tell us what it feels like! His body was NOT protected from the pain of death. It gets more interesting as there are some theologians who believe from wording in Scripture that Jesus has been on earth many times. The Bible states there were others that DIDN'T die! Why? Try to reason that one. Hint - transfiguration?
There are a number of times in the Bible where God is influenced by man in His decisions Really? Noah was a ship builder for hundreds of years, working on ONE boat. All mankind was NOT destroyed! Noah 'influenced' God by his obedience! I would state that God gave an alternative, not 'changed' his mind. That is what the Bible is about! Example after example of the God given alternative to disobedience. He controls the circumstance, we control our decision (choice).

1hole
03-08-2020, 05:47 PM
Actually, there is every chance that you in fact, are misinterpreting the bible, and it wouldn't be surprising as the bible is interpreted differently by pretty much everyone.

I avoid "interpretation" of scripture, that's why I usually cite the specific book/chapter/verse(s) I'm referring to. When I do state my opinion I always note IS only my opinion. Bible meaning is typically so clear that no interpretations are needed - which is most of the time.

Nothing is true based on how fervently we "believe" it to be so, problems come from those who argue against what is clearly written and baldly state their private interpretation is "truth"; that's not an honest position for anyone to take. Meaning that when someone like Tim forcefully proclaims that no more than 8 of the 10 Commandments are correct because "God told him so", forget it. (2 Pet 1:20)


Nobody, including you, is an authority on the bible, ...

A LOT of people are authorities "on the bible (sic)" but I don't qualify for that label. I am, at best, an armchair theologian but I've read it, cover to cover and do have a working knowledge of what's written and can usually find where it's written.

I list my references to show they are NOT my own ideas. Just try to get those who proudly claim to have new, better understandings of how, and from where, they get their brilliant new revelations on what the Bible means and/or what it should say.


... an impossible task when the provenance and accuracy of the bible itself can't be shown.

Nonsense.

Much of what was previously denied about Bible history has been given provenance by archeological finds; not all parts have been proven correct but NOTHING has even proven the Bible wrong!

There is very little concrete evidence that Plato and Aristotle existed but that little we have "proves" they did. On the other hand, literally thousands of (scientific) evidences supporting what is in the Bible have been found in just the last couple hundred years but so called "higher critics" refuse to admit it! (They can't, that would blow away their arrogant claims to be "Bible experts"!)

Finally, strong circumstantial evidence is often legally accepted as proof in court. Lawyers have long said the known records of the life and works and the immense historical impact of Jesus life, death and resurrection are more than sufficient evidence to prove the important facts of the Bible story in court.

So, if historical artifacts and history count for anything, your claim that the Bible is unsupported falls flat on its face. And that's a fact, not just my opinion. But, you'll have to do your own research to confirm it, I'm not going to look it all up again just to correct an erroneous web claim.

dverna
03-08-2020, 06:30 PM
popper

Your example is one case of man influencing God, unless you believe God wanted to bring on the flood for some other reason, but He regretted creating man. God regrets creating man in Genesis 6:6. The flood occurs in Genesis 7...His actions were caused by His anger with man.

In Exodus, 32:12, Moses pleads with the Lord to spare the Israelites...He was prepared to destroy them. And in in verse 14: "Then the Lord relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened." God changed His mind...or at least thus it is written.

There more examples reported.

dtknowles
03-08-2020, 08:11 PM
yes tim, i do believe the bible is true. I would also love to know where you get all your information from.

Well, I certainly look to more than one book. I have been studying Science, Economics and Philosophy for more than 40 years. My professor for Religions of Mankind was not happy I chose to write my term paper (in 1979) on Confucianism. He was a Protestant Minister.

Tim

roadie
03-08-2020, 08:16 PM
Nonsense.

Much of what was previously denied about Bible history has been given provenance by archeological finds; not all parts have been proven correct but NOTHING has even proven the Bible wrong!

There is very little concrete evidence that Plato and Aristotle existed but that little we have "proves" they did. On the other hand, literally thousands of (scientific) evidences supporting what is in the Bible have been found in just the last couple hundred years but so called "higher critics" refuse to admit it! (They can't, that would blow away their arrogant claims to be "Bible experts"!)

Finally, strong circumstantial evidence is often legally accepted as proof in court. Lawyers have long said the known records of the life and works and the immense historical impact of Jesus life, death and resurrection are more than sufficient evidence to prove the important facts of the Bible story in court.

So, if historical artifacts and history count for anything, your claim that the Bible is unsupported falls flat on its face. And that's a fact, not just my opinion. But, you'll have to do your own research to confirm it, I'm not going to look it all up again just to correct an erroneous web claim.




Archeological finds are interpreted as to their meaning, the same way the bible is. In theory, there would be no problem in that, except for the human tendency to want to "correct" a long held belief, or in some cases, change that belief completely. Humans have agendas, the same people who translated the bible all throughout history also had agendas, whether they knew it or not. When an opportunity arises to further that agenda, it's usually taken......we've seen this all throughout history, we're seeing more of it in recent times. The ones in power write, or rewrite, history. It has always been, and will always be, that way.

Lawyers and courts? Do any believers really want lawyers and courts interpreting the bible's accuracy? Is religion not messed up enough already without bringing those characters on board? Talk about agendas, I can only imagine what the final result would be, and it ain't good. The bible cannot be proven, it can also not be dis proven, it's folly for anyone to argue about it. Belief in the bible is a personal choice, not something to be legislated by lawyers and courts.

Your arguments are without legs to stand on.........and that's not an erroneous web claim.

dtknowles
03-08-2020, 08:18 PM
This is an interesting perspective...."man would have eventually found for himself". It explains why God cast Lucifer and his followers to earth instead of somewhere were evil would not be found. God wanted man to find evil.... I suspect, God wanted that to happen on His terms but Adam and Eve found out on their own the "hard" way. There was a whole universe to work with but God picks the earth for Lucifer. God wanted man to know evil...maybe He even needed man to know evil???

We will never know what God had planned. God could have destroyed Adam and Eve and tried a do-over...as He attempted with the Great Flood. I am left wondering....Did God plan for and/or foresee the "free will" of Adam and Eve, or did he react to the "free will" of Adam and Eve? It looks that God reacted, but that may be due to how I am reading and interpreting that section of Genesis.

It is one reason I have drifted to Open Theism. There are a number of times in the Bible where God is influenced by man in His decisions. God knows the past and the present and He does not change it (either unable to or unwilling to). God does not know the future 100% perfectly, but He can influence it.

It makes praying to God for some of the "silly" things we want (new car, better job, winning the game, selling our home for a profit, etc) more plausible. If er believe we can appeal to, and influence God to intercede in what will happen in the future prayer makes sense. If God already knows what will happen, what is the use of praying for things and results we want...are we not praying for the results He wants?

Don, the Adam, Eve, Lucifer, tree of knowledge thing is a parable. The same for the fallen angels being cast out of heaven. They are not real historical things. They are stories meant for teaching philosophy.

Tim

1hole
03-08-2020, 08:24 PM
Don, the Adam, Eve, Lucifer, tree of knowledge thing is a parable. The same for the fallen angels being cast out of heaven. They are not real historical things. They are stories meant for teaching philosophy. Tim

Goodness, where did you get info that makes you so certain of all that?

Do you really expect, or want us to believe that you believe those stories were "parables" written thousands of years ago so you could take them to your philosophy class in the 1970s? (I may be gullible but I ain't THAT gullible! ;))

curioushooter
03-08-2020, 08:49 PM
Jesus “died” on the cross for our sins. But God cannot die....Jesus certainly suffered but He did not die.

IMHO, many Christians seem to over rate His sacrifice.

When I was an atheist, I had no illusions of everlasting life, yet I would have died to save my children. I think every decent person would do the same.

Jesus “died” knowing he would not die....not much sacrifice there. Jesus “died” to provide a path to salvation for billions of God’s children. We would die to save one of our children.

Should we be grateful that He gave us a way to salvation....CERTAINLY!!

Was it much of a sacrifice....not in the big scheme of things.

First, to understand any of this you have to understand the essence of God. While it is true Jesus did know He would resurrect...in fact He knew this from the beginning of time...you are making a very great mistake to equate the putative suffering of yourself with the suffering of the God-man.

God is perfect, infinite, and entirely just being. It is only out of Love that anything exists...a gift from God. He doesn't need us. He could have just as easily never created anything as He is entirely self-sufficient. He gave us free will merely so we could genuinely love Him back, but rather we disobeyed Him-an insult we could never possibly reconcile, as God is infinite. Only an infinitely good sacrifice could amend the infinite insult.

Jesus was both God and man. This means that for him to suffer even in the least was infinitely more of an insult that it would be for us as well as infinitely more potent in terms of redeeming mankind. Since Jesus was perfect because His nature was divine the sufferings in the Passion were infinitely greater than anything we could ever suffer...if we were tortured a million times it wouldn't compare. We simply are not good enough, not knowledge able enough, to be humiliated as greatly. And more than simply endure death and resurrection, He endured the worst torture/execution ever devised by man.

You say you would die for your children. I wonder what you would be saying as your flesh is being ripped from your body and you are left to hang on a cross with your own weight either bearing on NAILS driven through your joints or collapsing your diaphragm. I am pretty sure you wont be begging for forgiveness of the executioners as Christ did.

dtknowles
03-08-2020, 08:55 PM
……….Meaning that when someone like Tim forcefully proclaims that no more than 8 of the 10 Commandments are correct because "God told him so", forget it. (2 Pet 1:20)
………....

Let us start with the first Commandment that God showed me (not told) to be incorrect.

Keep the Sabbath day holy.

God cares little for calendars they are a thing of Man. Tis the seasons that mark God's time. God cares not which day or days you look to him with praise. Better we make each day holy. Is one day a week enough and if one day a week is enough why isn't one day a month enough. It is a Bible thing, Abrahamic. Followed by Jews, Muslims and Christians.

It is no sin if I work on the Sabbath, don't go to church, mosque or temple. Religions fought over which day of the week is holy, Friday, Saturday or Sunday.

Why does the calendar have Sunday as the first day of the week if it is really the last day of the week?

It does help churches, mosques and temples collect offerings if there is a special day each week for them.

Tim

1hole
03-08-2020, 11:00 PM
Let us start with the first Commandment that God showed me (not told) to be incorrect.

Keep the Sabbath day holy.....

I wondered if it would be something like that (but you've omitted the other law He told you was wrong ....)

Now, given your background and training I'm not surprised you're confused. What you've been told by a RCC rule following, legalistic bunch of priests is that the Old Testament rules - sabbath worship - still applies to Christians; that's not true, certainly not for the reasons the Mosaic Law was given.

All of the Ten ARE important, in principle. But ALL ten of the Laws of Moses were fulfilled when the Lord died and rose again - every jot and tittle of the Law, as such, was completed at that moment.

However, all of the Ten - save that one - are repeated in one way or another in the New Testament so they still matter. We do need a day for worship but Christians are given full latitude in which day they come together. (see Mk 2:27, Rom 14:5-6)


Why does the calendar have Sunday as the first day of the week if it is really the last day of the week?

Why? Well, first you need to understand that neither Hebrews nor Christians made that calendar. In fact, we have no reason to suspect a calendar as we know it even existed for Hebrews for several thousands of years after creation so keeping track of "weeks" and "days" didn't matter to anyone until Moses' stone tablets made it important.

To the degree a calendar existed even in the 400 years between Malachi and Matthew it was Roman. About 400 AD, one of your infallible Popes (Gregorie) accepted the Roman calendar but set the supposed date of Jesus birth around 400 AD. We still count BC/AD years from that point and we still use the Roman calendar with its pagan names for months and days. But there's no foundation to think the Roman calendar figured into God's concerns. (Col 2:12)

In apostolic times Christians came together to worship, study scripture and sing praises to God on Resurrection day, the first day of the week, on what the Romans called Sunday. And we have come to call Sunday the "Christian sabbath", which is fine until legalistic dummies start screaming about it. (Acts 20:4)

Next .... ?

dtknowles
03-09-2020, 12:07 AM
I wondered if it would be something like that (but you've omitted the other law He told you was wrong ....)

Now, given your background and training I'm not surprised you're confused. What you've been told by a RCC rule following, legalistic bunch of priests is that the Old Testament rules - sabbath worship - still applies to Christians; that's not true, certainly not for the reasons the Mosaic Law was given.

All of the Ten ARE important, in principle. But ALL ten of the Laws of Moses were fulfilled when the Lord died and rose again - every jot and tittle of the Law, as such, was completed at that moment.

However, all of the Ten - save that one - are repeated in one way or another in the New Testament so they still matter. We do need a day for worship but Christians are given full latitude in which day they come together. (see Mk 2:27, Rom 14:5-6)



Why? Well, first you need to understand that neither Hebrews nor Christians made that calendar. In fact, we have no reason to suspect a calendar as we know it even existed for Hebrews for several thousands of years after creation so keeping track of "weeks" and "days" didn't matter to anyone until Moses' stone tablets made it important.

To the degree a calendar existed even in the 400 years between Malachi and Matthew it was Roman. About 400 AD, one of your infallible Popes (Gregorie) accepted the Roman calendar but set the supposed date of Jesus birth around 400 AD. We still count BC/AD years from that point and we still use the Roman calendar with its pagan names for months and days. But there's no foundation to think the Roman calendar figured into God's concerns. (Col 2:12)

In apostolic times Christians came together to worship, study scripture and sing praises to God on Resurrection day, the first day of the week, on what the Romans called Sunday. And we have come to call Sunday the "Christian sabbath", which is fine until legalistic dummies start screaming about it. (Acts 20:4)

Next .... ?

So what will it be, is not worshiping on the Sabbath a sin or not? You give a straight answer to that and I will tell you the second commandment that is not a sin. I bet you can guess.

Actually it is not hard. Just look at the ten commandments and ask yourself. Which of these is not truly wrong.

Tim

popper
03-09-2020, 12:23 PM
Don - God changed His mind...or at least thus it is written. Semantics. We are given the option of right or wrong with consequences, our choice. God DID destroy all BUT the righteous with the flood! So did He really change his mind?
As for the Israelite slaves leaving Egypt, did happen as recorded by the Egyptians! And the plagues are recorded but attributed to a Destroyer. Occurred between the Old and New kingdom times - about the time the Hyksos came into Egypt. Hyksos are believed to be from what we call Armenia (semites - from Shem). Many scholars also believe Abram was actually from the same area vs tradition of south desert. South Ur (remains) is mostly a cemetery(?) with little evidence (remaining) of really being a 'town'. No archeological digs proving a large population lived there. If Abram had traveled from the coast (which was at one time fertile) up the Euphrates (east on the mountain side) he would have gone through many peoples to get to Baghdad and around the corner to Israel. With herd and large family it would have been a LONG trip. From Van down would have been much shorter and evidence shows cattle were more prevalent north of Baghdad. Language studies indicate that written evidence from 9000 BC (earliest) are from Armenia area. Basically tabulation data of livestock and grain. Oh, Flavious Josephus was well known for embellishing his writings as he got paid by the Romans (Massada).

1hole
03-09-2020, 01:02 PM
I will tell you the second commandment that is not a sin..... Just look at the ten commandments and ask yourself. Which of these is not truly wrong.

Which commandment is "wrong"? You don't seem to understand that God didn't give us a whimsical list of arbitrary hoops to jump thru, it's "liberal" politicians, some school teachers, some religionists and other people controllers who do that! God simply gives us the best list of things we can measure our own lives and hearts against.

You seem to want to measure other men against a "sin" list of your own making and, in that, you duplicate the errors of the pharisees of Jesus' day; that's bad spiritual juju my friend.

Bottom line, making judgement of God's instructions is way above my pay grade. Unlike your RCC priest's and their traditions, I don't make distinctions about large or small sins because I know God judges men's heart because that's what leads to sinful acts! The rules/Commandments of God that you don't like simply tell us the standards we should all be living by.

Contrary to (what I know of) RCC teachings, if we follow the "Church's" rules perfectly but do it without a right heart we'll get nothing spiritual. (See Jer 17:9-10; Mk 7:21-22)

As to which Commandment is "wrong", I'm not touching it; you're a trained catechism teacher and I'm not so you'll have to make that judgement yourself. But be careful .... !!

a danl
03-09-2020, 09:23 PM
Let us start with the first Commandment that God showed me (not told) to be incorrect.

Keep the Sabbath day holy.

God cares little for calendars they are a thing of Man. Tis the seasons that mark God's time. God cares not which day or days you look to him with praise. Better we make each day holy. Is one day a week enough and if one day a week is enough why isn't one day a month enough. It is a Bible thing, Abrahamic. Followed by Jews, Muslims and Christians.

It is no sin if I work on the Sabbath, don't go to church, mosque or temple. Religions fought over which day of the week is holy, Friday, Saturday or Sunday.

Why does the calendar have Sunday as the first day of the week if it is really the last day of the week?

It does help churches, mosques and temples collect offerings if there is a special day each week for them.

Tim

sunday became the first day of the week when Christ rose from the dead.. all of creation was finished on the seventh day , it's why we have a week of 7 days , every other reference of the calendar has a reference to the heavens , year,around the sun, month moon around the earth, week creation

dtknowles
03-09-2020, 09:25 PM
Which commandment is "wrong"? You don't seem to understand that God didn't give us a whimsical list of arbitrary hoops to jump thru, it's "liberal" politicians, some school teachers, some religionists and other people controllers who do that! God simply gives us the best list of things we can measure our own lives and hearts against.

You seem to want to measure other men against a "sin" list of your own making and, in that, you duplicate the errors of the pharisees of Jesus' day; that's bad spiritual juju my friend.

Bottom line, making judgement of God's instructions is way above my pay grade. Unlike your RCC priest's and their traditions, I don't make distinctions about large or small sins because I know God judges men's heart because that's what leads to sinful acts! The rules/Commandments of God that you don't like simply tell us the standards we should all be living by.

Contrary to (what I know of) RCC teachings, if we follow the "Church's" rules perfectly but do it without a right heart we'll get nothing spiritual. (See Jer 17:9-10; Mk 7:21-22)

As to which Commandment is "wrong", I'm not touching it; you're a trained catechism teacher and I'm not so you'll have to make that judgement yourself. But be careful .... !!

So with all the weasel words, did you say that not performing worship on the Sabbath is a sin?

Maybe you said you don't know?

It is hard to tell, you are as clear as a politician.

Tim

dtknowles
03-09-2020, 09:29 PM
sunday became the first day of the week when Christ rose from the dead.. all of creation was finished on the seventh day , it's why we have a week of 7 days , every other reference of the calendar has a reference to the heavens , year,around the sun, month moon around the earth, week creation

Actually the 7 day week existed before for Genesis was written, it is actually the time between the changes in the phases of the Moon. The seven-day week originates from the calendar of the Babylonians, which in turn is based on a Sumerian calendar dated to 21st-century B.C. Seven days corresponds to the time it takes for each phase of a lunar cycle. New Moon, First Quarter, Full Moon, Last Quarter.

Tim

1hole
03-09-2020, 10:03 PM
Actually the 7 day week existed before for Genesis was written, ....

Wow; before Genesis? So, just to make sure, you believe the Babbelonins started a calendar and maintained a precise account of days starting from their own day one of creation so Moses and Gregorie could use it as a benchmark for Saturday when it was needed some thousands of years later? ROFL!

And it's you who demands massive province before you'll except the resurrection, as if all the written records and circumstantial evidence of history we have isn't overwhelming!

dtknowles
03-10-2020, 12:42 AM
Yes, before genesis was written.

The Babylonian calendar is not some miracle that requires extraordinary evidence but we have more than hearsay evidence of its existence and nature. There are multiple physical evidences.

http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/ifa/zpe/downloads/2000/130pdf/130159.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_calendar

http://www.ancientpages.com/2016/11/07/7-day-week-can-traced-babylonians-started-using-4000-years-ago/

I can't understand why you find the existence of ancient calendars so surprising,

https://www.ancient-egypt-online.com/ancient-egyptian-calendar.html

Why wouldn't people have calendars 5 thousand years ago.

All the written records of the resurrection were written hundreds of years after the event. We have actual copies of the ancient calendars from the time they were used not some stories about them.

How come the Dead Sea Scrolls don't contain anything about the resurrection. They contain other New Testament works and other works from the times of king Herod.

Tim

dtknowles
03-10-2020, 01:17 AM
People need to put the Herodian era in perspective. Jesus did not live in some ancient time. He, Jesus lived at the beginning of Modern Times. Jesus lived in the Current Epoch. It was a era of wide spread use of the written word. People conversed in multiple languages, they were multilingual because intercontinental trade was common. We area talking thousands of years after the Egyptians built pyramids. 600 years after the first Roman Empire. 900 years after the Mycenaean Greeks. 1200 years after the Trojan war. 400 years after the Spartans. We have contemporary accounts of all of these thing. The were written about by the people who experienced them first hand. We have almost no first hand account of anything regarding Jesus. Nothing written while he was alive that mentions Jesus.

Even Herod's order to slaughter infants is not recorded in any contemporary record. Where is the testimony of the people who witnessed these events. The lapse is so flagrant that apologists felt a need to explain.

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/638-did-matthew-fabricate-the-account-of-herods-slaughter-of-the-bethlehem-infants

Tim

1hole
03-10-2020, 09:43 AM
1) You leap to illogical interpretations. I didn't even hint that calenders didn't exist long before Moses. I was/am laffing at your determined assumption that those calendars were based on keeping track of what would become the Hebrew or Christian sabbath because it's a ludicrous idea.

2) You'll have to tell us which "New Testament" books were found with the dead sea scrolls because I know of none and doubt anyone but you do.

3) Jesus worked only about 3 years. He grew up in a very unimportant village in the north of Israel, itself a small back water part of the Roman Empire. His work started quite small and never grew to huge proportions. His king Herod was no more than a puppet who ruled at the pleasure of Rome so I doubt that much of what even he did got did got written up in the dead sea scrolls.

Jesus himself lived in poverty. He started no wars, he deposed no kings, he started no large public works so it's hardly worth noting there are no long scrolls or huge carved stones mentioning his mighty work - except history.

It is well worth mentioning that the N.T. was written and widely distributed within the living memories of both the authors AND many of its readers. You should consider that when you (wrongly) say there are "no first hand stories" to his work and resurrection.

a danl
03-10-2020, 12:46 PM
actually the 7 day week existed before for genesis was written, it is actually the time between the changes in the phases of the moon. The seven-day week originates from the calendar of the babylonians, which in turn is based on a sumerian calendar dated to 21st-century b.c. Seven days corresponds to the time it takes for each phase of a lunar cycle. New moon, first quarter, full moon, last quarter.

Tim

wow!!!!!!!!! Where'd you get that info from and why do you believe that rather than the bible? Did some other document come along to prove that rather than the bible ?

dtknowles
03-10-2020, 09:42 PM
1) You leap to illogical interpretations. I didn't even hint that calenders didn't exist long before Moses. I was/am laffing at your determined assumption that those calendars were based on keeping track of what would become the Hebrew or Christian sabbath because it's a ludicrous idea.

2) You'll have to tell us which "New Testament" books were found with the dead sea scrolls because I know of none and doubt anyone but you do.

3) Jesus worked only about 3 years. He grew up in a very unimportant village in the north of Israel, itself a small back water part of the Roman Empire. His work started quite small and never grew to huge proportions. His king Herod was no more than a puppet who ruled at the pleasure of Rome so I doubt that much of what even he did got did got written up in the dead sea scrolls.

Jesus himself lived in poverty. He started no wars, he deposed no kings, he started no large public works so it's hardly worth noting there are no long scrolls or huge carved stones mentioning his mighty work - except history.

It is well worth mentioning that the N.T. was written and widely distributed within the living memories of both the authors AND many of its readers. You should consider that when you (wrongly) say there are "no first hand stories" to his work and resurrection.

You say that the N.T. was written and widely distributed within the living memories of the reported authors. Do you have evidence that is the case? If indeed the seemly biblical text found in Qumran Cave 7 is actually as believed by some to be Mark 6:52–53 then we have a contemporary copy of eye witness to Jesus' life if not his resurrection. What first hand accounts do you know of, of the resurrection. Did anyone report in their own words seeing the dead Jesus come to life.

Did the resurrected Jesus, walk among the general population or did he appear and disappear privately. Where was he when he was not with his disciples.

I did not say that those calendars were based on keeping track of what would become the Hebrew or Christian sabbath. Yes, that would be a ludicrous idea. I am saying that the idea of a 7 day week precede the writing of Genesis. A 7 day week was not something created by the Old Testament.

Tim

dtknowles
03-10-2020, 09:43 PM
wow!!!!!!!!! Where'd you get that info from and why do you believe that rather than the bible? Did some other document come along to prove that rather than the bible ?

Yes, many other documents have been discovered that show that the 7 day week used by the Sumarians and Babylonians was based on the phases of the moon and was being used before Genesis was written. I provided some helpful links and if you do the research you can find much more evidence. These people kept much better records than the Hebrews and Israelites.

http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/ifa...pdf/130159.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_calendar

http://www.ancientpages.com/2016/11/...000-years-ago/

Tim

Dieselhorses
03-10-2020, 10:49 PM
This is interesting although I will always believe that the key to "knowing" is "believing"-not "knowing" first and then "believing".
https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2017/april/why-you-can-believe-in-the-resurrection

dtknowles
03-11-2020, 12:04 AM
This is interesting although I will always believe that the key to "knowing" is "believing"-not "knowing" first and then "believing".
https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2017/april/why-you-can-believe-in-the-resurrection

Thanks for the link. This is the discussion I would imagine we would have here but it would be a dialog.

The author quotes Prof. Jonathan Morrow

"So when it comes to the Resurrection, we say 'Well, how do we know Jesus existed?' Some people even doubt that. The fact is, we have far more sources for Jesus of Nazareth than we do for many historical figures in the first century. We have at least 18. Twelve of those are non-Christian sources."

Being the doubting Thomas I am, I want to see and read those sources but they are not listed in the story. I have asked members here to point me to such sources as I have searched and not found them. Why no footnote for these sources.

Tim

Shiloh
03-15-2020, 05:03 PM
As a man, God in the flesh, Jesus suffered as any other human subjected to all the brutality that Rome could mete out.

Shiloh