Question about S&W 1917

[LeadHead72]

So I recently picked up this Brazilian 1917 at an auction for $300. All numbers match, and it has a serial #199,8xx and what I consider a pretty nice refinish job. Under the grip is an "X" stamped on the frame; can anyone tell me the significance of it? I've heard that S&W stamped the frame when they refinished it but have not particularly heard that they used an "X".
Yes, I hate the grips and would like to find a set of originals (and a lanyard ring) for a reasonable price someday, but I'll just enjoy/shoot it the way it is for now.
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[swheeler]

No idea what the x means but nice looking revolver. The cylinder has that "plum" look to it, Ruger 77 tang safety style.

[TNsailorman]

I have had 3 of those in the past and none of them had an "X" mark on the frame, so no idea. I do like the revolver though but I would loose the grips. Originals are very hard to find and I wish you luck. All 3 of mine 1917's had original grips but all were sad cases. I left them that way though to keep them original as possible. I made a set of grips to use when at the range and still have those but they are large grip style of todays handguns. james

[Gewehr-Guy]

Neat old revolvers, what caliber is the brazilian? I found an old Canadian hand ejector that was converted from .455 to .45 Colt, really a nice shooter. Mine was missing the lanyard loop too, but I found one off a S&W Victory model that fit. E-bay or Sarco might have one.

[LeadHead72]

No idea what the x means but nice looking revolver. The cylinder has that "plum" look to it, Ruger 77 tang safety style.

Thank you, swheeler, it sort of "matches" my Ruger 77 tang safety 7mm Mag and 22-250! LOL
From what I've been told the cylinder's steel is a different hardness than the frame on that model and when they're refinished they take the bluing differently. It's one way of knowing it's not the original finish.

[LeadHead72]

I have had 3 of those in the past and none of them had an "X" mark on the frame, so no idea. I do like the revolver though but I would loose the grips. Originals are very hard to find and I wish you luck. All 3 of mine 1917's had original grips but all were sad cases. I left them that way though to keep them original as possible. I made a set of grips to use when at the range and still have those but they are large grip style of todays handguns. james

Yeah, there are plenty of better options someone could have chosen for aftermarket grips, but again--for the price I paid there is some financial wiggle room for picking up other ones.

[LeadHead72]

Neat old revolvers, what caliber is the brazilian? I found an old Canadian hand ejector that was converted from .455 to .45 Colt, really a nice shooter. Mine was missing the lanyard loop too, but I found one off a S&W Victory model that fit. E-bay or Sarco might have one.

The model 1917 is .45 ACP. The Brazilian government ordered thousands of them from S&W for their naval forces and perhaps other departments, thus the "Brazilian" designation. It has their logo roll-stamped on the side plate.
Is the Victory model lanyard ring absolutely identical to the 1917 lanyard ring? It would appear that it's intended to be attached with a roll pin, is that correct?

[Battis]

Where is the serial number located?

[LeadHead72]

Where is the serial number located?

On the bottom of the butt, on the cylinder and on the bottom of the barrel.

[Battis]

When they removed the lanyard ring, they didn't touch the serial number?

[reddog81]

The 1917 Brazilians spent decades in Brazil and the X could mean anything. Mine has various screws and a piece of wire for the locking bolt pin. Gunsmiths in small towns of Brazil would do anything...

[LeadHead72]

When they removed the lanyard ring, they didn't touch the serial number?

No, the lanyard ring is easily detached by driving out a retaining pin. It would not affect the serial number in any way.

[Battis]

I have a 1917 S&W that had the lanyard ring removed at some point, and whoever did it also removed the serial number. And that's the only serial number that matters. It's also on the barrel, the cylinder, the extractor, penciled inside the grips but not on the frame. I contacted the local BATF and they were very helpful. I wrote to the BATF technical office in Virginia, explaining what had happened to the gun, and I'm waiting for them to give me the official OK to have the number restamped. But, it's been a few years and I haven't heard anything. If I have to surrender the gun, the only part I'd have to turn in is the frame. Real pain in the butt (now there's a pun). Nice gun, though. It has the flaming bomb on the frame.

[LeadHead72]

That's a crying shame, Battis, and I truly hope it all works out well for you. If by any chance you're so unfortunate as to have to surrender the frame, please keep me in mind for the grips and lanyard if you don't mind.
Now some friendly, honest words of advice... Considering the agency that you're dealing with I would not assume they don't have a problem with the gun just because it's "been a few years". Because you notified them of the situation you must assume that their official records show that you own it in its current state, and with their track record of less-than-friendly tactics I would again contact them to see if they'll allow a re-stamp. If they approve it, make SURE to get it in writing on an official document. If you don't, it would not be completely unreasonable to think that one day they could take drastic measures because you're such a "threat" with your "illegal" weapon and your life could quickly become very unpleasant.

[Battis]

Yeah, it's a problem. I've written to them twice and that's the only way you can contact them. I might write once more or just surrender it to them. Then I'll have some spare parts and I'll keep you in mind.

[Battis]

I hijacked this thread. I'll start a new one.

[sharpshooter3040]

The serial number can be brought back with an acid reagent that is how the they do it in the lab. The serial number is also in the yoke cut if I’m not mistaken


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[Battis]

I'll start a new thread.

[Gewehr-Guy]

LeadHead, I'm not sure if the Victory model lanyard ring is identical, but it fits and looks proper on the gun, but I don,t have an original to compare it to. Those big frame Smiths feel right, look right , and are a joy to shoot.

[LeadHead72]

LeadHead, I'm not sure if the Victory model lanyard ring is identical, but it fits and looks proper on the gun, but I don,t have an original to compare it to. Those big frame Smiths feel right, look right , and are a joy to shoot.

Thank you. From closeup pictures I couldn't detect any difference, but of course fine measurement differences often can't be seen, only measured.

[Thin Man]

Recovery of the serial number on the bottom of the grip frame depends largely on how the original number was removed. If the frame was ground/polished off and made it shorter you have a chance. If the frame was peened as with a pointed punch (think stippling) your odds are greatly reduced.

Check your state's laws concerning the removed serial number. My state has a statute that ANY device that had a serial number applied to it when it was first made, and later that serial number was removed, altered, obscured, etc., the item becomes contraband. Period. No serial number replacement. This rule applies to televisions, cars, firearms, anything with a factory applied serial number. Check your state laws concerning this topic, and watch your back.

[Battis]

The serial number is actually on the frame, in the extractor shroud. It's also on the yoke and the inside of the side plate. The only one that matters is the one on the frame. I was told, incorrectly, a few years ago that these numbers are "assembly numbers," which makes no sense. They are serial numbers. At some point the barrel and cylinder were changed, so they have a different number. Yeah, I know, the serial number that was ground off the butt is a problem, but at least it's still on the frame (extractor shroud). What should I do now is the question.

[LeadHead72]

The serial number is actually on the frame, in the extractor shroud. It's also on the yoke and the inside of the side plate. The only one that matters is the one on the frame. I was told, incorrectly, a few years ago that these numbers are "assembly numbers," which makes no sense. They are serial numbers. At some point the barrel and cylinder were changed, so they have a different number. Yeah, I know, the serial number that was ground off the butt is a problem, but at least it's still on the frame (extractor shroud). What should I do now is the question.

Not trying to start an argument here, but can you elaborate as to why you feel you were mistaken about the serial/assembly number inside the crane area? To the best of my knowledge (someone smarter than me please correct me if I'm wrong), the only places you'll find the serial number is on the butt, the cylinder face and the bottom of the barrel. From everything that I know (which, could be argued, is very little) the numbers that you see inside the crane area are indeed assembly numbers. On my gun, for instance, the serial number on the butt, cylinder and barrel are all matching while the two sets of numbers inside the crane match each other but are totally different than the actual serial number.

[Battis]

Maybe I'm wrong about being wrong. So, the butt number on your gun doesn't match the number inside the extractor shroud? What about inside the side plate? And what is an assembly number? For what it's worth, I have a "modern" S&W and the number inside the extractor shroud matches the number on the butt.

[LeadHead72]

Maybe I'm wrong about being wrong. So, the butt number on your gun doesn't match the number inside the extractor shroud? What about inside the side plate? And what is an assembly number? For what it's worth, I have a "modern" S&W and the number inside the extractor shroud matches the number on the butt.

No, it's not even close to the same. I haven't had the side plate off to check it but would go out on a limb and predict that it does not match the number on the butt.
From what I understand, the assembly numbers were used at the factory to facilitate the process of keeping matched parts together during the manufacturing/blueing process. For instance, the cylinder/crane assembly must be hand-fit to a specific frame/barrel assembly (most likely before the blueing process) so both items would be numbered so that they can be polished and then dropped into the blueing tank along with many others without the risk of getting them mixed up.

[Battis]

I just got off the phone with the BATF and the agent gave me a direct phone number to the West Virginia tech department. I've written to them twice. Maybe I'll have better luck on the phone.

No luck on the phone. You have to write to them.

[LeadHead72]

I just got off the phone with the BATF and the agent gave me a direct phone number to the West Virginia tech department. I've written to them twice. Maybe I'll have better luck on the phone.

Good luck, and I truly hope you are able to legally keep your piece and enjoy it freely. Even though mine may not be very desirable to true "collectors" and was not carried by an American GI in combat, it is really cool to own a piece of WW2-era history in such a beautiful, functional package.

[skeettx]

https://www.gunpartscorp.com/gun-manufacturer/smith-wesson/revolvers-sw/1917-sw

Grips
https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/979450

Lanyard ring
https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/358810B

[Battis]

Leadhead72,
Thanks for your help. In the photo below, the number shown is actually on the frame itself, in the extractor shroud (as it's called). It has the same number of digits as a serial number and actually comes back as a serial number from a gun made in 1918. Do you know if the assembly numbers have that many digits, and if they're actually stamped on the frame (and not just parts)?

I think I can answer my own question: this gun just happens to have a 5 digit serial number, and assembly numbers have 5 digits. So that is an assembly number.

[LeadHead72]

Leadhead72,
Thanks for your help. In the photo below, the number shown is actually on the frame itself, in the extractor shroud (as it's called). It has the same number of digits as a serial number and actually comes back as a serial number from a gun made in 1918. Do you know if the assembly numbers have that many digits, and if they're actually stamped on the frame (and not just parts)?

I think I can answer my own question: this gun just happens to have a 5 digit serial number, and assembly numbers have 5 digits. So that is an assembly number.

Unfortunately I don't have mine with me to be able to take pictures of it, but yes, mine has a 5 or 6-digit assembly number on the frame at the same location as you showed in your picture, as well as a matching number on the crane adjacent to it.
The serial number itself is stamped on the bottom of the butt of the frame next to the lanyard ring hole. The cylinder will also have the serial stamped next to the chamber holes, and if you swing the cylinder out and turn the gun over you will see the serial number yet again on bottom of the barrel where it is hidden by the ejector rod when it's closed. The barrel and/or cylinder serials may or may not match the one on the frame butt since many times guns were repaired/rebuilt with parts from other guns, but if you're as lucky as me all three of them will match.
If you would like for me to take pictures and post them (or email them to you) just let me know and I'd be willing to do so after getting home from work this evening.

[Battis]

Thanks but this is just me trying to bend reality. I was hoping the 5 digit numbers were serial numbers but they're assembly numbers. So I'm back to where I was 3 years ago when I wrote to the ATF. I'm going to try one more time to see if they'll authorize a new stamping based on all of the other matching numbers and assembly numbers.

[LeadHead72]

Thanks but this is just me trying to bend reality.

Trust me; I'm old enough to know exactly how it feels and have done the same thing myself on different occasions! Good luck, and please let us know what the ATF ends up deciding for you.

[gwpercle]

What's wrong with the grips ??? I was thinking... I like those grips...they look retro-cool !
If you hate them and want to get them out of your sight I'll give them a good home ...
I'm a sucker for stray cats and unwanted gun stuff .
Gary

[webfoot10]

This thread got me to wondering about my Brazilian contract S&W revolver. So
I pulled it out to check. The frame serial is 6 didits, as is the number on the cylinder
and bottom of barrel. The other number on the crane and frame are assembly no's
and are 4 digit's and a letter. So the number on the grip frame is the serial#.

[LeadHead72]

What's wrong with the grips ??? I was thinking... I like those grips...they look retro-cool !
If you hate them and want to get them out of your sight I'll give them a good home ...
I'm a sucker for stray cats and unwanted gun stuff .
Gary

My preference is for it to look more original and will keep you in mind...

[LeadHead72]

This thread got me to wondering about my Brazilian contract S&W revolver. So
I pulled it out to check. The frame serial is 6 didits, as is the number on the cylinder
and bottom of barrel. The other number on the crane and frame are assembly no's
and are 4 digit's and a letter. So the number on the grip frame is the serial#.

Yes, the number on the bottom of the butt, next to the lanyard ring mounting hole is the real serial, and it's the only one that would matter to the ATF if there were ever a question.