I have a issue with sizing 30-06 brass

[mdevlin53]

I have been having a problem with sizing some 30-06 brass. The brass is commercial Federal, RP and Winchester. the dies are Lee RGB, the lube is Imperial spray lube. The Brass is range pickup and then fired by me several times.

Seems that some of the brass will not chamber without more force than i like. I measured at the neck, shoulder and base and they compare to factory loads (that chamber with ease) I am thinking that the cases are getting work hardened and the shoulder is not getting pushed back enough or is springing back after it has been sized. this does not happen to every case but quite a few.

So in my mind it is either the die is not shaped right (that dose not explain tthe some fit some don't issue). That leaves hard brass that needs to be annealed.

Any of you out there had a problem like this and what did you do to correct it.
Chime in if you have opinions
Michael

[garandsrus]

You probably just need to screw the sizing die down a little more. Do you have a way to measure the shoulder to case base dimension? You want a sized case to be .003 or so less than an unsized case.

[Bazoo]

Sounds like either the shoulder isn't being set back far enough or the length is too long.

[mdevlin53]

should have mentioned the die is screwed down so that the bottom of the die contacts the shell holder.

[Bazoo]

You sure the press isn't springing? Have you checked the length? Have you measured the shoulders of those that fit to those that don't?

[Larry Gibson]

Sounds like either the shoulder isn't being set back far enough or the length is too long.


Agree. If you haven't trimmed after FL resizing several times I suggest you check the case OAL.

[Bama]

May be shell holder got mixed up from another die set. Found out the hard way they are not all the same thickness above shell rim. Had to take a couple of thousands from to to fix problem and started keeping matched dies and shell holders together.

[mehavey]

should have mentioned the die is screwed down so
that the bottom of the die contacts the shell holder.As noted above, turn it down to contact +1/16 turn to (mostly) eliminate Press spring.

ALSO: Get something other than spray lube. I highly recommend RCBS Case Lube (https://www.amazon.com/RCBS-09311-Case-Lube-2/dp/B000PWDF32) to reduce sizing force (and press spring)

[TNsailorman]

The headspace can be correct but if the neck has lengthened by repeated firing, it will jam against the forward edge of the cartridge chamber. I set my trimmers to trim to length to 2.486" and check them after every 2 firing and when they get to 2.492", I trim them again. I trim after resizing, not before resizing. If your dies worked for previous firings, the possibility that they are the culprit is small. I agree with Bazo and Larry, you most likely have a length issue.

[mdevlin53]

It is not the cartridge length as they have all been trimmed after the FL sizing step. I have the press set so that the end of the stroke actually cams over so to speak. i am going to check a few of my shell holders and see if maybe i got a thick one in the press. with limited means of machining i would have to figure out a method to thin one though.

[Winger Ed.]

Paint them with a Sharpie to see what's dragging. You may need a small base die.

Something I've heard about, but not experienced is after several resizings, the brass will 'flow' towards the neck.
We all trim for length, but I've heard of the neck wall also getting thicker and needing to be thinned down by neck turning it.

[tankgunner59]

Ditto, it sounds like the case length is the problem. And it doesn't hurt to anneal after a set number of firings. I usually anneal after 3 to 4 firings.

[Bazoo]

It could be a die that is not sizing the case right above the web. That would explain some cases being sticky and some not. I've experienced that with 30-30, especially in brass that might have been borderline large to start. Brass can expand there, but it takes several firings. If you hav a min chamber and a max die, it would compound the problem.

[mdevlin53]

I have been doing a sort of plunk test on each round before loading to see if they are going to give me problems. So i have a pile of rejects to work with. Tomorrow i am going to check the shell holders to see if that could be the problem and try the sharpie trick then i will try annealing a few and see if that helps.
Its really not a length issue. Each round is put into a locked caliper as a sort of a go-no go gauge to insure they are all the desired dimension.The ones that fit right are exactly the same as the ones that are tight.

[Winger Ed.]

i am going to check the shell holders to see if that could be the problem and try the sharpie trick t.

I'd do that with a sized case, and then a loaded one.
If the necks are too thick, you might not notice it without a boolit being seated and stretching it back out.

I had some one time that gave me fits because I didn't roll in enough crimp from the flare on a 'M' die.

[azrednek]

May be shell holder got mixed up from another die set. Found out the hard way they are not all the same thickness above shell rim. Had to take a couple of thousands from to to fix problem and started keeping matched dies and shell holders together.

I agree, had the same problem several years ago with 765 Argie and 308 Norma using Pacific brand shell holders with Lee dies. After using the correct Lee brand shell holders the problem went away.

[mehavey]

At this point, unless you have a case HeadSpace Gauge (https://www.amazon.com/Hornady-B14-Lock-N-Load-Comparator-Inserts/dp/B000PD01OC/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw9L_tBRBXEiwAOWVVCUzxwRObpe1Rafr8CBMg 9B0CJtRjF3ja2KSYHC52rPh3-mZw3IZ3cRoC9QcQAvD_BwE&hvadid=190482903117&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9008150&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t1&hvqmt=e&hvrand=13242391167040805859&hvtargid=aud-649564993678%3Akwd-297767750356&hydadcr=9715_9896936&keywords=hornady+headspace+comparator+kit&qid=1571874555&sr=8-4), you're going to be fighting a black cat in a dark room with all the lights turned out.

[RedlegEd]

^^^ what mehavey said.
Hi. I've wrestled with the same problem, and I found the culprit to be exactly what Bama said in #7 above. There are definite differences in the thickness of shell holders from the top that contacts the die, to the floor that supports the base of the cartridge. My own experience is that Hornady and RCBS are slightly thicker than the Lee shell holder. The best way to find out is to have a Hornady Headspace Comparator (https://www.amazon.com/Hornady-B234-Lock-N-Load-Comparator-Inserts/dp/B07PBRTMR3). It's simple to use...basically take a fired case from your rifle that chambers easily, using the correct insert, measure the length of the case at a datum point on the shoulder (0.375" for the .30-06.) Once you have this measurement, you can tell immediately if you aren't getting enough shoulder set-back (bump) when sizing even when if die is all the way down against the shell holder. How to fix? First, try using different shell holders. If you find that using a certain shell holder works, then mate with those dies and don't change. Sometimes, it's as simple as tightening the die down another 1/4 - 1/2 turn or more and giving the press just a little extra oomph at the top of the stroke is just enough to get the right bump. If that doesn't work, you can make a mandrel from a 1/4-20 x 1" pan head screw through the primer hole in the top of the shell holder, and a nut underneath to hold it firm. Chuck it up in a drill/drill press, use some fine (400 grit) wet/dry sandpaper with a hard flat backing, and take off what you need. The shell holders are pretty hard, so it might take a bit of work, but I'm pretty sure it won't be more than a thousandth or two. Once it gets to where you get a consistent shoulder bump, match that shell holder with the dies. Hope this helps. Ed

[poppy42]

Unless I’m missing something, it shouldn’t make a difference what shell holder you use as long as you setup your dies with the same shell holder you use to reload with. I use a set of Lee RGB dies in 30.06 and I don’t know what brand my shell holder is. Now if you set up your dies with one shell then use another one when you’re reloading that can definitely cause issues. Also are you talking about loaded ammo, or just brass that won’t chamber. Castboolits or Jwords? If it’s loaded rounds, loaded with cast boolets it sounds like your boolet is bottoming out on the rifling. Let’s remember old school cast boolet seating for max accuracy. Load the boolet long, no crimp, chamber the round allowing the chambering of the round to seat the boolet. Then you know the absolute max o.a.l. Tweek the length and that gives you the best length/ accuracy for that boolet chambered in that rifle. Just one possibility.

[murf205]

Or...you might want to get a really good case lube and brush it on the inside of the neck and feel how much force is needed to withdraw the case out over the expander ball. After resizing you might be pulling some of the shoulder forward when you take the press handle up. Neck wall thickness could be getting greater with subsequent firings although I, personally, have never had a 30-06 give this problem but my 22-250's have quite a bit.

[mdevlin53]

So i did some tinkering this morning.
Measured all my #2 shell holder and they are all within a half thousandth.
Took a thousands and a half off one with the mandrel and sandpaper trick. No joy.
Could not really determine a rub with the sharpie trick.
I annealed several cases and ran them through the die and that did the trick.

I suppose i should keep track of how many time i fire brass but i dont. Most of my brass is picked up at the range so new to me brass is added to the bin where i keep the 30-06 cases. so some may be once fired and some could be 3,4 5 or more times fired.
That would explain the random nature of cases not chambering sometimes but not all the time. so next time i have a bunch of empties i will setup and anneal them all to reset and then perhaps i will sort by times fired
Problem solved thanks for the help.

[fcvan]

All of my 30-06 brass is once fired range pick-up having watched them being fired from factory boxes and asking if I could pick them up. Lee dies (I have Dad's old Pacific dies as well) and all of my current fired brass is now twice fired. It should be noted I am loading cast which are dramatically much less pressure. I measure after firing and after re-sizing, and have not observed any measurable changes in the brass. As this was the first bottleneck case I started shooting cast with I am trying to apply things I've read here and to learn more.

The only thing I do a tad differently than most is how I lube. First, I deprime and wash my brass with dawn dish soap. I don't bother to dry them before putting into a plastic container with a lid. I dribble vegetable oil into the container and shake them to spread the oil. I then size pretty much immediately making sure to swipe my finger over the case mouth to deposit some lube for the expander ball. I haven't done more than 100 pieces at a time.

Anyway, the sized brass goes into a dawn soap wash with some lemon juice which removes the tarnish caused by the oxidized zinc in the brass. Dawn cuts grease, vegetable oil is immediately removed. The strained brass goes straight to the Lyman tumbler with ground walnut. Periodically, I add a tablespoon of Turtle Zip wash to the tumbler. The strained brass goes straight to the tumbler while wet. The water helps re-activate the zip wash and causes the walnut to swell and become rough again. Within an hour, the brass is shiny like new, the media is dry, and a light coating of the wax in the zip wash seals the brass from oxidization.

Once a year or so I put my walnut into a burlap bag with a zipper. Left to soak the debris sticking to the walnut frees up and the walnut swells up which takes away the smoothness caused by polishing. I rinse the bag until the soap and water runs clean and hang the bag outside. Call me cheap, I haven't bought new walnut for 9 years, but when I do, I get lizard bedding from Petco as it is cheaper than buying the same stuff sold as polishing media.

My reloads stay shiny like new indefinitely whereas a box of factory I was given tarnished sitting in the box stored in a cool dry place.

[mdevlin53]

Yesterday i annealed all 80 of my Federal cases dried them out and re-tumbled them. This morning i ran them through the FL sizer die and checked each one in the chamber on my rifle. They all chambered and extracted with ease. Federal seemed to have this problem more often than other brands. So I am convinced that the brass got work hardened from firing and the shoulder was not getting pushed back properly. I am glad this is solved as i hate to get to the range and not be able to chamber a number of rounds. the worst part was that i was working up a load and i had 4 different powder weights in 80 cases to shoot in two rifles. 10 shots per load per rifle. It may be silly but if i decide to shoot 10 round groups i hate it when there ar only 8 shots on the paper.

[Bazoo]

Thanks for the update. I didn't know need of annealing would cause sizing issues.

[Big Boomer]

All the above suggested possibilities cover the issue pretty well. However, there is one possibility that has not been addressed. I was having difficulty with my Winchester Model 670 .30-06 years ago (Winchester made the M670 for only a few years and it is a gussied down M70). I followed the directions that came with my Lyman dies and was having delayed firing. I was actually hearing the firing pin hit the primer, pushing the case forward, then the delayed ignition. Bob Milek, who wrote for Guns & Ammo (if I recall correctly), was still alive at that time and wrote an article explaining that all reloading dies are not milled equally. He said that when the reaming die is run into the sizing die blank to cut the die for sizing, sometimes the reamer is run in a little further than or a little less than some of the others that are cut. In the case of my Lyman die set, the reamer had not been run into the sizing die far enough and I was setting the shoulder back too far by following the printed instructions that came with the die set. After reading the article, I took some factory ammo and fired it in my rifle. Then I carefully sized the brass by allowing the brass to enter the defective die only to the neck/shoulder junction and that ended my problem. You could have a sizing die that the reamer was run into the die body a couple of thousandths too far, thus producing the undesirable extra length in your sized cartridge cases. I. E., it may not be a problem with your cases or shell holder but the sizing die itself that may need to be shortened a couple of thousandths. But be very careful to establish that this is the problem, for once removed the sizing die length cannot be "put back." Big Boomer

[trixter]

should have mentioned the die is screwed down so that the bottom of the die contacts the shell holder.

That might not be enough, after you deprime/resize the cartridge, check it in your chamber, turn the die down a very little at a time, until the bolt can be closed with ease.