Lee expander solution?

[kmw1954]

So I finally just started to load some of these Lee 356-102-R1 bullets that I just started casting with all of your help. These are dropping at between .357" to .358" but most are 0357". I have not sized these as I do not yet have a sizer but one is coming. So as-is after seating the bullet I am seeing a sliver of lead around the case. I have tried both increasing the flair and decreasing the crimp to no avail. I then pulled one apart with the ol bullet hammer puller and I can clearly see where the lead was shaved by the case. Measuring this bullet it is .3555.. So yes I know I need to size these but my question is about the Lee Expander in the die and use of the Auto powder measure. I keep reading about the "M' die but what is the solution for the Lee Die and Measure?

[robg]

Just expand the case a little more ,no need to size boolits if they chamber OK.

[Camper64]

Seat the Lee Expander or your powder through die a little deeper so it flares your case mouth a little more.

[Rcmaveric]

Screw the powder die in a little more. I use the powder through die on 380 Acp, 9mm and 357 mag. I flare just enough that the bullet can sit inside the flare.

The lyman M die and NOE inserts (for the Lee Universal Die) does more than bell the case mouth. It expands the whole neck. Good. As far as pistol cals though i have gotten superb accuracy from using using powder through die or the lee universal case neck expander. For rifles though i prefer a more exact expansion.

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[MT Chambers]

Unscrew the lee die from press, insert into garbage bin, buy proper die.

[kmw1954]

Unscrew the lee die from press, insert into garbage bin, buy proper die.

OK Mr. Intelligent Helpful tell me what exactly is the PROPER DIE? One that will accept the Auto Drum powder measure?

[Wheelguns 1961]

I use either a lyman m-die, or a noe expander plug in a lee universal expander die for all of my cast bullet loading. As far as I know, nobody makes a proper cast bullet expander plug for the powder through die. I believe noe used to make them, but no longer does

[kmw1954]

I use either a lyman m-die, or a noe expander plug in a lee universal expander die for all of my cast bullet loading. As far as I know, nobody makes a proper cast bullet expander plug for the powder through die. I believe noe used to make them, but no longer does

Thank you for the straight forward answer to my question.

[Kenstone]

"but what is the solution for the Lee Die and Measure?"

This
Unless I missed it, you didn't say what caliber you are loading as yet but I'll guess 9mm.
For bullets in that diameter range you need to use the expander from a 38S&W die.
It's a direct swap into a Lee 9mm PTE die.

https://leeprecision.com/pm-expan-plg-38-s-w.html
or
https://www.titanreloading.com/lee-se1699-pm-exp-plug-38-sw?search=Lee%20SE1699


Order it from Lee and you will probably only have to pay shipping.
It will expand the case bigger/deeper and eliminate the case swaging the bullet and lead scraping.
If you're not loading 9mm, never mind.
:D

[kmw1954]

Kenstone thank you for the reply. Actually I am loading the 380acp. I do have a 38/357 die set on hand, is that the same expander?

I do have some samples of this same bullet that were sized to .356" and I have not noticed any shaving on those. Both sets of bullets have also been tumble lubed. The one I pulled apart which I cast and lubed had no lube left on the bullet where it had been in the case. It looks like it went thru a sizer.

[cwtebay]

+1 on kenstone's post. And as far as "proper die" , Lee does a fine job - as do others. I'm quite certain that your answer will be found here, by advice and experience - not trading out your choice of equipment.
Cheers

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[jcren]

I load a lot of 380 on lee dies, and the lee 380 die will work fine. The 38s&w die trick is for thicker 9mm brass. Try adjusting the powder die down a bit until the bullet sets on the case easily. Also, if seating and crimping in one step, it is easy to get the crimp happening too soon which will also shave lead.

[Pine Baron]

+2 on kenstone. I use the 38 S&W expander to fit powder coated, sized .357 dia. boolits into 9mm. Try your existing .380 die a little deeper first.

[mdi]

I have been loading cast bullets with plain old Lee dies for 25 years (and noticed some Lee Haters jump at every chance to badmouth Lee). Like a lot of the above posts, just increase the flare. Use as much flare as you need to get good shooting ammo now, and worry about case life later ("too much" flare is when the flared case won't enter the seating die). I have some various caliber jacketed bullets on my bench and use them as a "gauge" to make sure I have enough flare; a loose fit with a jacketed bullet usually means a good fit for a cast bullet. My "junky" Lee Powder Through die works quite well with flaring 9mm brass for .359" bullets...

Another thought; sometimes when seating and crimping in the same operation can cause shaving. Maybe separating seating/crimping operations is needed...

[Kenstone]

Just more flare will not prevent the case from swaging the bullet smaller.
If bullet swaging is no concern to you, have at it.

You need an expander that is a BIGGER diameter to maintain the bullet diameter as cast.

""no lube left on the bullet where it had been in the case"
Does this bullet have a lube groove?
I'm thinking that "1R" means it has one lube groove...
I've only tumble lubed bullets with lube grooves, the lube below the groove is pushed into that lube groove(s) when seating or sizing.
jmo,
:D

[Kenstone]

Kenstone thank you for the reply. Actually I am loading the 380acp. I do have a 38/357 die set on hand, is that the same expander?

I do have some samples of this same bullet that were sized to .356" and I have not noticed any shaving on those. Both sets of bullets have also been tumble lubed. The one I pulled apart which I cast and lubed had no lube left on the bullet where it had been in the case. It looks like it went thru a sizer.

I'm not sure about the 38/357 expander, I'd take it out of the die and compare it to the 380 expander's length and diameter.
You might be able to swap the 38/357 expander into the 380 die.

I'm thinking using the complete 38/357 expander die won't work as it cannot be set it up low enough to reach the 380 case mouth before hitting the shell plate.
Adding a spacer above the expander might get it to work though, but might limit the powder measure motion.
I wouldn't know without trying it.

I think using a 9mm expander die with that 38S&W expander would be your best chance at success here.
:)

[Rcmaveric]

My .357 Mag die set is RCBS and didnt come with a powder through die. I use the Lee 9mm powder through die for my .357 mag.

I use the same powder dor 9mm and 380 Acp so I use the 380 ACP die on both 9mm and 380.

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[1hole]

I have been loading cast bullets with plain old Lee dies for 25 years (and noticed some Lee Haters jump at every chance to badmouth Lee)......

Roger that. And, as here, they tend to jump in lock-step with themselves and with no more justification than a simple sneer at supposed "entry level" tools. I don't prefer every tool Lee makes but every one of them works and some are the best available so I pay such mindless responses no mind.

I have a lot of dies from many makers, several of which few here will have ever heard of; they all work fine. No maker's dies automatically solve every potential problem but, when used properly, I've found that Lee's dies work as well as any ... and sometimes make better ammo than high dollar others!

[mdi]

The OP was asking about shaving, not swaging. Different symptoms and different problems/results. Very soft bullets may be swaged, but there should be no strips of lead after seating. I have loaded 9mm cases with .359" flat based bullets of my "normal" 11-12 BHN bullet alloy after running them through my Lee sizing die. Removed bullet and measured, no swaging noticeable...

I started reloading way pre web and I just didn't know my Lee tools/equipment was no good. I learned I could not get decent results or any lasting life out of my Lee presses and dies when I started looking in on reloading forums. I just didn't know my tools/equipment was junk and wouldn't last 30 years. I guess I'll have to get all new stuff, and toss my Lee stuff I bought in the '70s (nah!)...

[Virginia John]

Since you are relatively new at this reloading thing, I would suggest that you read your Lee instructions for setting up your dies. Lee does a good job of telling you how to set them up and once you are sure that everything is as it should be, then re-look at your results and if need be adjust the bell.

[Jniedbalski]

I use my lee single stage press and most of my dies are made by lee. All die makers make there dies for fmj it’s just what most people load. There are cowboy dies that are the same except the expander die is bigger for lead bullets. I load a lot of lead bullets with my lee dies but to do it first you must do this . Get lee to make you a over sized expander. If you don’t want to do this get lee’s universal expander. This only bells the mouth so then buy noe’s expander plug. This worked on every oversized lead pistol bullet I ever used it on. I still use the lee universal expander when I want a bigger flare on the case mouth than the noe will give me. The noe expander will expand the inside of the case so it doesn’t shave or swage down lead bullets. You won’t believe the size difference I found in brass thickness between different brands of brass. You can actually feel it. I did a box of different 38 brass and the 38 wad cutter brass barley even touched the noe’s expander die. Some brass was really hard in and out of the sizer. Lee will make you a larger one also. Just measure your expander and go two to three thousands bigger. On my 38 special wad cutter brass I use noe’s I think it’s .355x .359 or .360 sizer works good for wad cutter bullets.

[Kenstone]

The OP was asking about shaving, not swaging. Different symptoms and different problems/results. Very soft bullets may be swaged, but there should be no strips of lead after seating. I have loaded 9mm cases with .359" flat based bullets of my "normal" 11-12 BHN bullet alloy after running them through my Lee sizing die. Removed bullet and measured, no swaging noticeable...

I started reloading way pre web and I just didn't know my Lee tools/equipment was no good. I learned I could not get decent results or any lasting life out of my Lee presses and dies when I started looking in on reloading forums. I just didn't know my tools/equipment was junk and wouldn't last 30 years. I guess I'll have to get all new stuff, and toss my Lee stuff I bought in the '70s (nah!)...

Shaving/Swaging
No he didn't mention Swaging but did say a pulled bullet measured 0.3555", a bullet that was 0.357/0.358" dia. before seating...
So swaging along with shaving is a distinct possibility given the size of the bullet.
Swaging has been mentioned in the past, it's something I have personally experienced, and for those seating oversize cast/coated bullets in 9mm, using the 38S&W expander has become a common practice/workaround.

:coffeecom

[Jniedbalski]

Also NOE’S makes a 380 auto pistole sizer. It’s like 6.95$ get this one and get the next one up in size. I got 4 38 expanders and only use mostly the two. But there cheap

[kmw1954]

Since you are relatively new at this reloading thing, I would suggest that you read your Lee instructions for setting up your dies. .

Thanks, but to be clear I am not "New" to reloading. Just new to cast lead bullets.

Here is were I am presently at after seeing the shavings on the final product. First I increased the flair and decreased the crimp with no effect. I then took a finished round and pulled the bullet. From the base of the bullet all the way up to where the crimp would be the bullet is shiny all the way around like it was run through a sizer, all the tumble lube has been stripped off.. I then removed the expanding die and the powder measure and reset the die all the way down to the shell holder and reset the powder measure so it was all the way down as well. Tried again with still no improvement and still a sliver of lead around the case mouth.

On have I have the 380 die, 2 9mm dies and a 38/357 die. So tonight I will go take them all apart and inspect the expanders in each one.

When I started this whole endeavor I received a bunch of these 356-102 bullets from a member to try and experiment with, it was probably a couple hundred, they were all sized to .356 and tumble lubed and I don't recall seeing any of this shaving while I was loading them. So for now I am at a loss as to what to do and kind of at a standstill.

As for the rest. I have been working hard to ignore the Lee Bashers, The suggestion of a "proper die was about as useful as a sand pail and beach shovel in a gravel pit. Still Haven't heard what the "proper die" is.

[kmw1954]

I still use the lee universal expander when I want a bigger flare on the case mouth than the noe will give me. The noe expander will expand the inside of the case so it doesn’t shave or swage down lead bullets..

Lee will make you a larger one also. Just measure your expander and go two to three thousands bigger. On my 38 special wad cutter brass I use noe’s I think it’s .355x .359 or .360 sizer works good for wad cutter bullets.

Unless this will work with the Lee Powder thru Die and an Auto Drum/Disk Measure then it does not serve my purpose on a progressive press.

[Rcmaveric]

I reload on a turret press and a progressive with the Lee 9MM and 380 ACP dies with no issues.

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[Rcmaveric]

One thing i didnt see, i skimmed through to check, are you seating a bullet and crimping in one step?

If so, that's your problem. May still even cause the problem if your arent but didnt set up the die correctly. Put a flared case in and run the ram to its full stroke. Unscrew your seater stem to the max and then screw the seater die in in till you feel it touch the case mouth but doesnt remove the flare. Lock the die down. Remove the empty flared case and insert a dummy round. Now adjust your seater stem to your dummy.

Now try to seat a bullet. It seams most of lees pistol bullet seater dies also crimp. It can close the flare while you are still seating and shave lead. We also you use more flare with cast bullets than you would normally with a jacketed bullet. I always make sure i get a separate die for crimping. Lee FCDs are awesome.

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[kmw1954]

. It can close the flare while you are still seating and shave lead. We also you use more flare with cast bullets than you would normally with a jacketed bullet. I always make sure i get a separate die for crimping. Lee FCDs are awesome.

Seating and Crimping in the same step is not the problem, as previously stated the flair has already been set to as large as it will go, didn't solve the problem. Crimp die set out to the point there was NO CRIMP. also did not solve the issue.

I too have loaded both plated and jacketed bullets with these 380 and 9mm dies I have and have seated and crimped in one step w/o issue.

[Jniedbalski]

My way of doing it with my single stage press works but won’t work with your progressive press and powder through die. Noe use to make the powder through expander but I think now they quit making it. I thank lee will still make you a custom size powder through expander. I checked in to it a few years ago but went with the lee and NOE.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Thanks, but to be clear I am not "New" to reloading. Just new to cast lead bullets.

...SNIP
Since you are not new to reloading, I think it's time for you to do some troubleshooting.
First thing I'd suggest is to separate the seat and crimp operations...just as a test, to see if and when the sliver of lead shows up.

But, you'll still likely have the case swage the boolit down, if you don't get a larger case expander, or maybe use a harder alloy?
Good Luck.

[Jniedbalski]

Yesterday, 04:11 PM #9
Kenstone Kenstone is offline
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"but what is the solution for the Lee Die and Measure?"

This
Unless I missed it, you didn't say what caliber you are loading as yet but I'll guess 9mm.
For bullets in that diameter range you need to use the expander from a 38S&W die.
It's a direct swap into a Lee 9mm PTE die.

https://leeprecision.com/pm-expan-plg-38-s-w.html
Hope I did this right. The above post from keystone about using the 38 S&w powder through expander will work. It’s also used for the 38 short and long colt. It’s only 3.00$through lee. If it leaves not enough bullet pull you can always sand it’s diameter down a thousands or two.

[kmw1954]

Since you are not new to reloading, I think it's time for you to do some troubleshooting.
First thing I'd suggest is to separate the seat and crimp operations...just as a test, to see if and when the sliver of lead shows up.

Good Luck.

Already did that.

Also just went up and pulled the expanders from each of the 380, 9mm and 38/357. They are each a different length though the 38/357 has a longer expander the overall length of the expander insert of the 38/357 is much shorter.

Also just checked as I have some of these that are sized and powder coated to .356 and I am not getting the shaving though now I will have to pull one and measure it's diameter to check for swaging.

[Kenstone]

Also just went up and pulled the expanders from each of the 380, 9mm and 38/357. They are each a different length though the 38/357 has a longer expander the overall length of the expander insert of the 38/357 is much shorter.

Also just checked as I have some of these that are sized and powder coated to .356 and I am not getting the shaving though now I will have to pull one and measure it's diameter to check for swaging.

How do the 380 and 9mm expanders compare??
If they are the same length then the 38S&W expander could work in the 380 PTE.
If not, I'm sure it'll work in the 9mm PTE die and that die could possibly work for 380.
:lol:

[kmw1954]

Kenstone the 380 is the longest and the 38/357 is the shortest in overall length. Yes the 9mm is also shorter than the 380 though the expander/flair look identical. At this point I think I need a bullet sizing die to size these down to .356" and see if that will resolve the problem.

[Camper64]

Just curious if you tried the .357 sized and unsized powder coated ones to see if the shavings happen on those as well?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Already did that.

>>>SNIP
What was the result?
sliver show up during seating?
sliver show up during crimp?
no sliver?

[kmw1954]

Just curious if you tried the .357 sized and unsized powder coated ones to see if the shavings happen on those as well?

No sir, not yet. But with the sized ones it did make me think it was the hardness of the PC that was preventing the shaving which is why I mentioned pulling one apart and measuring the bullet.

JonB am still seeing the shaving from just seating. Right now I have the crimp adjusted so that the case will just tightly seat in the chamber. It will not plunk.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

SNIP...

JonB am still seeing the shaving from just seating. Right now I have the crimp adjusted so that the case will just tightly seat in the chamber. It will not plunk.

that doesn't sound like you have separated the seat and the crimp into two totally different operations...meaning, two different strokes of the ram.

In a single operation (seat/crimp), even if you don't have the crimp set to a actual crimp, but more of a "remove the bell" action, you can still shave the bullet in the last bit of Ram movement.

[kmw1954]

Here is the plan for today.

Will seat one with no crimp and then pull it for inspection.
Will also try one each of the PC, sized bullets that Camper64 so graciously sent me and observe those.

[jcren]

Those boolits must be pretty soft for a 380 case to size them down. Those cases are fragile compared to 9mm.

[AABEN]

I size all of my bullets that I cast I lube then before I size them them re-lube I have no trouble loading them I have different sizing dies for the same bullets I use 99% LEE dies and sizing dies I have a couple of RCBS dies that LEE did not make at that time

[Kenstone]

Kenstone the 380 is the longest and the 38/357 is the shortest in overall length. Yes the 9mm is also shorter than the 380 though the expander/flair look identical. At this point I think I need a bullet sizing die to size these down to .356" and see if that will resolve the problem.
Thanks for posting that info

"" Yes the 9mm is also shorter than the 380 though the expander...""
That is actually a good thing as you can make a sleeve/bushing that is as long as the length difference, out of some tubing, then use the 38S&W expander in the 380 die.

That and you really don't know if a 0.358" dia. bullet properly seated/crimped in a 380 case will chamber/plunk in your 380 gun barrel.
With that in mind, bullet sizing may be in your future.

I have only one 9mm barrel out of many that will not chamber rounds containing a 0.358 bullet, even with thin brass, and have to size bullets smaller for that one gun [smilie=b:
All this because I (and many others) have found coated bullets that are oversized are more accurate/group better.
Have fun chasing this out to finality,
:lol:

[kmw1954]

Thanks again Kenstone. This is a head banger and one of the reasons I put off loading cast lead for the 9mm, being all the different sized barrels are out in the world for the 9mm. I may have to contact lee to see about a custom part to fit as now that I am out of the working world I lost most of my contacts for machining.

I really thought that I would just tumble lube these as the samples I shot performed so well. For now I will have to wait until after the 1st of the month before I can order a Lee sizer/lube die kit.

[kmw1954]

Results from this afternoon.

Loaded up blank samples, no primers, no powders. Took the powder measure out of the die and placed the funnel nut in the die. Set the die to apply the largest flair possible, which honestly wasn't very much. I can get much more flair with my 9mm and 45acp die. At this setting a .358" bullet will just barely fit into the case. After this I took the seating/crimp die out and took it apart and cleaned it then put it back together. Set the die so there was no crimp being applied and to seat the bullet to the normal depth.

At this setting I ran a bullet all the way down. Result, found a shaving at the mouth of the case.. Next I ran another and only seated it to the depth of the lube groove. Was able to pull this by my fingers and it looked swaged, was shiny to the groove and all the tumble lube was gone. Ran another bullet up past the lube groove and it too looked the same and there was a ridge where the seating stopped. Didn't see a shaving. I wish I could get some pictures but my camera will not focus that close for it to show up. Lastly I seated a couple of the .356" sized and PC bullets and there was no sliver and the PC was untouched. I didn't get to measure these afterwards as I was called away but I do have them set aside.

[kmw1954]

A happy update!

My Lee push thru Sizer/lube kit arrived today so I sized up about 200 of these 356-102 bullets and then re-tumble lubed them and just test loaded 10 of these. Set to a OAL of .965" with a normal crimp and not a single sign of any shavings on the finished bullets. Also they are passing the plunk test much nicer now that they have been sized to .356"