Drop Tube or Vibration

[chuck40219]

Is one better than the other for settling your powder before compressing?

chuck40219

[BrentD]

Is one better than the other for settling your powder before compressing?

chuck40219

Some of us do both - at the same time.

[Walks]

When I loaded Black Powder I used a 3 foot drop tube, worked great.

[country gent]

I use a drop tube 3 ft long, I also have some shorter tubes made but seldom use them. A log tube and slow deliberate pour does well for me. I slowly trickle the powder from the scale pan into the funnel along one side, this trickle may take 20 secs or so for larger rifle charges. Ive never tried vibration but then I didn't want to make up the set up to test it.
An arrow shaft or small tubing can be used to make a drop tube. For small brass tubing Online metals has a large selection.

[chuck40219]

This question is just the progression of my loading journey. I have been using vibration up to now. Have the arrow shaft (31") just have to put together the stand. I find the vibration method easy, I use a beard trimmer, 10 sec. per case and move on to the next case. Would like to see if there is a difference in my shots.

chuck40219

[country gent]

Many variables to consider when testing this (vibration vs drop tube). Cases volume, condition, flash holes. powder type and grain size. Charge weight and column length. Primers type brisance and fire.
While I use the drop tube its more a pre compress or grain alignment as I compress to final depth with a separate die in the press. This works well for me and most BP powders like / eed the compression. Few of my loads need the tube to get the full charge in the case before compressing in the die. some in 38-55 are close.

Make a simple drop tube and drop 10 charges into cases with it measure powder depth then pour charge out of case into pan and pour back into same case use vibration method and re measure depth, This way the same case and charge is being compared the same amount of fines in the charge, the same case volume and sizing, using the same case and charge reduces variables

[okietwolf]

I've never tried it, but an old timer from a club I used to be a member of made his drop tube from a 30" piece of steel fuel line, with an Sbend in it. Not enough of a bend to stop the flow, but to slow it down. He claimed he could dump the black powder in the funnel and it would take 6-7 seconds to flow to the case.

[BrentD]

A bend in your droptube defeats the purpose. Keep it straight.

[okietwolf]

I personally do a bit of both. My measure drops thru a 24" tube with a choke in the bottom and then I rap on the case with a wooden file handle for 15 seconds or so. Once the powder seems to not settle any more then I place the over powder wad and compress

[Edward]

Is one better than the other for settling your powder before compressing?

chuck40219

Both works for me /Ed

[John Boy]

Several years back there was anartclle in BPC News that compared drop tube to vibrating Basically there is no difference. I have a drop tube that hasn't been used in about 10 years because I vibrate all BP reloads

[rfd]

drop tubes are the easiest to use and make, and will more than suffice ... but, a combo of both tube and vibrate would be best of all.

[Lead pot]

Several years back there was anartclle in BPC News that compared drop tube to vibrating Basically there is no difference. I have a drop tube that hasn't been used in about 10 years because I vibrate all BP reloads

John I just happen to have read that last night when I moved some old magazines. The issue was winter 09 #68 and it was still taped shut never opened. :)

It said, drop tube was more considerably consistent followed by the none settled (just dumped in the funnel) and the least accurate was the vibrated.

[Thunder1964]

I actually do both at the same time.

[BrentD]

I actually do both at the same time.

You are not alone. See post number 2

[.22-10-45]

The latest Fouling Shot (Cast Bullet Asso.) has article on just this thing.

[BrentD]

The latest Fouling Shot (Cast Bullet Asso.) has article on just this thing.

They've been around for a long time.

[Lead pot]

In one of these books https://openlibrary.org/subjects/rifle_practice._[from_old_catalog] read about this subject and it said that a loose powder charge in a shell was more accurate than using a heavy follower on the power. (I think they referred to a compressed load) What their thought was that the burn was faster and more consistent because of the loose powder.
I also have spent time shooting ladder loads using a dipper, drop tube, vibrating or a combination of all and I only have seen higher extreme spread readings on the chronographs when the powder was dropped with a tube and then vibrated.

[Chill Wills]

I also have spent time shooting ladder loads using a dipper, drop tube, vibrating or a combination of all and I only have seen higher extreme spread readings on the chronographs when the powder was dropped with a tube and then vibrated.

Sorry Kurt - I am not sure what you mean. Are you saying, in your experience you saw the largest extreme spreads (ES) when using drop-tubed AND vibrated loads of BP? And by extension, better ES loads were made by using only one method, either drop-tube OR vibration?
thanks...

[Lead pot]

I see larger spreads in the ES when using a drop tube and then vibrating the charge. I think vibrating the charge breaks the granules down and creates more dust or the dust gets over the flash hole.
I can't say for sure but I see a lot of verticals vibrating the charge.
I get a lot better results just filling the case with very light or no compression. Yes the fouling is darker but what does it matter when you wipe between shots fired?

[bigted]

Kurt, follow up question ... when NO compression is used ... is the charge dropped thru your drop tube or just poured into the case direct? Also you mention "darker fouling" please expound on this as well?

Thanks.

[rfd]

i would always drop tube from a reasonable height as this compacts the bp. vibrating the case is also a form of compaction. doing both would seem the best of both worlds.

[Chill Wills]

I see larger spreads in the ES when using a drop tube and then vibrating the charge. I think vibrating the charge breaks the granules down and creates more dust or the dust gets over the flash hole.
I can't say for sure but I see a lot of verticals vibrating the charge.
I get a lot better results just filling the case with very light or no compression. Yes the fouling is darker but what does it matter when you wipe between shots fired?

With the exception of not trying vibration much because I had a good system with loads not using any compression, just drop-tubed, my experience is as yours. The sweet spot for accuracy has always been powder to the base of the bullet and then adjust one or two grains down or up to find max accuracy. These are always drop-tubed loads with maybe 97 to 103 percent load density of available space.
These loads produce ES in the 12 to 15 FPS range and SD numbers are best for the longer yardages at 3-4 FPS variation.

This has worked well with the really good lots of Swiss powder and until this last lot of Swiss that was fluffy and did not behave. Now I am at a bit of a loss on getting anything to work with this lot. I need to buy more powder and hope I get a new lot that is like the stuff from the good old days.

I will stick with the drop tube only because is has worked so well and I am set up.

[sharpsguy]

My experience is the same as Kurts'. Drop tube and no compression or drop tube and compression, depending on the rifle/caliber always gives me the best results. Add vibration to the mix, and numbers and accuracy go south.

[Lead pot]

Ted,
I drop tube my loads. I have 12", 24" and a 36" tube as well as a 6" and I use the 24" the most.
I checked vibrated loads and found a lot of dust on the bottom of the case by carefully lifting the powder to the bottom and the flash hole was filled as well as the bottom of the case. Now I don't know if the dust was in the powder or if the grains were damaged through vibrating, but having uneven amounts of dust at the beginning of the burn could increase the burn.
I have posted these pictures of what a compressed powder ends up in the case. Starting with .050" to .400" When you get past .05" the powder starts to be a solid mass that cant be good for a consistent burn. I feel the reason the fouling is less is because the hard mass that starts between .100" and .200" compression scrapes the bore and it does not completely burn. I went a step farther checking this out. I took two 20' foot lengths of 4" PVC pipe and fired compressed rounds through the pipe and collected the results after every shot with different compressions and this really opened my eyes on the amount of unburned powder. This cant be good even when the velocity does increases, but in my opinion this is why I see higher verticals.
The compressed loads are mentioned in several old books from the 1880's that compressed loads are not favorable for long range shooting.

Kurt

252855252856

[bigted]

Thanks Kurt. I have always compressed my powder charges even tho when beginning this route, compressing powder ran against my judgment ... I still do it and this has inspired me to run some loads of uncompressed ... or very lightly ... powder under the boolits ... both in my revolvers and rifles. Now wondering about my cap n ball revolvers.

[Gunlaker]

I have never tried vibration as I generally haven't found problems getting my 10-15 shot SD's down to 3-4 FPS. I will try it one day probably, but I haven't needed to so far.

Chill, everything happens slower up here in Canada so I haven't tried any of the really new Swiss yet. I'm about done my supply of lot 010.213 which is the best I've ever used. I have enough some 270.613 to keep my silhouette rifle going for a few months. After that it's stuff with the new date code system ( 18/01/2016). I hope that stuff works well.

Chris.

[chuck40219]

Thanks for all the brain power that has been put forth in this topic.

Tomorrow I will be emptying some 45-70 cartridges of powder and lead. Range trip.

Looking forward to using my new drop tube setup. Will keep good notes and report back with what I find out what works for my rifle and my style of shooting.

chuck40219

[bigted]

Good luck Chuck. Have a pleasant range trip. Look forward to reading about how it went.

[Lead pot]

Thanks for all the brain power that has been put forth in this topic.

Tomorrow I will be emptying some 45-70 cartridges of powder and lead. Range trip.

Looking forward to using my new drop tube setup. Will keep good notes and report back with what I find out what works for my rifle and my style of shooting.

chuck40219

Chuck a range trip is always the best way to find what works. What works for you might not, mostly not, work for others.

[KCSO]

It all depends on how consistent YOU are. If I vibrate I put the case in the same spot every time and vibrate for the same amount of time and I have gotten good results, but a drop tube has done just as good for me. I tap the measure and then the tube the same every time. I am now using a drop tube as I have one fitted on each measure and both are permanent set ups for one calibre.

[Edward]

With a 3 ft drop tube I couldn"t get 80 gr 1 1/2 F OE until I attached a Walmart electric trimmer with duct tape and then it all came together/Ed

[indian joe]

Ted,
I drop tube my loads. I have 12", 24" and a 36" tube as well as a 6" and I use the 24" the most.
I checked vibrated loads and found a lot of dust on the bottom of the case by carefully lifting the powder to the bottom and the flash hole was filled as well as the bottom of the case. Now I don't know if the dust was in the powder or if the grains were damaged through vibrating, but having uneven amounts of dust at the beginning of the burn could increase the burn.
I have posted these pictures of what a compressed powder ends up in the case. Starting with .050" to .400" When you get past .05" the powder starts to be a solid mass that cant be good for a consistent burn. I feel the reason the fouling is less is because the hard mass that starts between .100" and .200" compression scrapes the bore and it does not completely burn. I went a step farther checking this out. I took two 20' foot lengths of 4" PVC pipe and fired compressed rounds through the pipe and collected the results after every shot with different compressions and this really opened my eyes on the amount of unburned powder. This cant be good even when the velocity does increases, but in my opinion this is why I see higher verticals.
The compressed loads are mentioned in several old books from the 1880's that compressed loads are not favorable for long range shooting.

Kurt

252855252856

Kurt
My picture of compressed powder loads looks like what you posted - much more so in the bottle necked 45/75 case than in my 45/70 (something to do with effort versus area I guess?) I drop tube and use a reasonable depth of compression - ES is good - around 10FPS if I am careful with the other parts of the process, and burn is clean - homemade powder though and I cant quite get the density equal of commercial. I am of the view that amount of effort (weight) of compression is a better measure than depth - so when I am setting up a load I use a luggage scale on the handle of the small press (non compound linkage) that has my powder compression die.
All this stuff is pretty subjective - accurate load + low ES + clean burn = end of problem

[bigted]

I think that my endeavors with compressed powder ... both droptubed and have done some vibration ... has been in the endeavor to be able to get the same amount of powder as the old balloon style cases.

[Lead pot]

Ted if I feel I need more power I just fill a larger case. I don't try to make a 2.4 into a 2.6 :)

[John Boy]

I did 2 different samples vibrating the powder from 2 different KIK FFFg cans: One straight out of the can and the second from a can that I had "socked" the powder
Results:
.... "Unsocked" vibrated drop = some fines but not much
.... "Socked" vibrated drop = No fines

[chuck40219]

I did 2 different samples vibrating the powder from 2 different KIK FFFg cans: One straight out of the can and the second from a can that I had "socked" the powder
Results:
.... "Unsocked" vibrated drop = some fines but not much
.... "Socked" vibrated drop = No fines

This whole discussion has prompted me to rethink everything I thought and read on loading BPC. When I started this BPC thing, reading that BP needed to be compressed to be effective. Now I see that might not be so.

And I will ask, what is socked vs unsocked?

chuck40219

[Gunlaker]

Chuck, I've found that many of the "black powder loading rules" you hear and read about are misleading at best. I've shot some pretty good scores by not paying a huge amount of attention to any hard and fast rule I've heard.

Chris.

[Chill Wills]

Chuck, I've found that many of the "black powder loading rules" you hear and read about are misleading at best. I've shot some pretty good scores by not paying a huge amount of attention to any hard and fast rule I've heard.

Chris.

Amen.

[indian joe]

It all depends on how consistent YOU are. If I vibrate I put the case in the same spot every time and vibrate for the same amount of time and I have gotten good results, but a drop tube has done just as good for me. I tap the measure and then the tube the same every time. I am now using a drop tube as I have one fitted on each measure and both are permanent set ups for one calibre.

major secret revealed here !!!!!!!!

[djryan13]

Vibration is news to me. What is everyone using?