Does expansion matter?

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

After reading a bit about the FBIs fabric/gel penetration tests I wonder now if expansion even matters. The thinking seems to be that if you put a hole in the vitals you've done an effective job. Thus maybe a .380 that doesn't expand would pass the test. Or a .45 for that matter.

I mean if passing the FBI test is the goal why not use a solid lead bullet of sufficient weight and velocity, then you dont have to "hope" the bullet expands.

[tazman]

With some of the FMJ ammo in common calibers, you get too much penetration according to the tests. The expanding bullet helps stop that aspect as well as inflicting more damage.
The FBI prefers the bullet to stop inside the person shot.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

I was just thinking about the same thing if your using a 45 acp with a 230 gr boolit for self defense do you need expansion

[tazman]

I was just thinking about the same thing if your using a 45 acp with a 230 gr boolit for self defense do you need expansion

Personally, I like the idea of the target having holes in front and back. In the case where I would be using my handgun in my own home, I don't have any concerns about where the handgun bullets go after passing through the target.
I am not in a congested area. The closest dwelling is nearly 100 yards away with trees in between us. The only other person in the house is my wife and I will know where she is.

For concealed carry, I use the suggested hollow point ammo for 9mm or 38 special to avoid the issue while in a crowd.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

Yes I also use the suggested carry loads but was thinking about a 230 gr boolit going around 700 fps how much penetration would that have

[tazman]

Yes I also use the suggested carry loads but was thinking about a 230 gr boolit going around 700 fps how much penetration would that have

I have my 45acp pistols loaded with 200 grain boolits(Lyman 452460) at around 800-850fps. These feed perfectly in my handguns and should work nicely.

[megasupermagnum]

I'm seeing anywhere from 25" to 30" of penetration in ballistics gel for the 45 acp ball load. I do like bullets to pass through. If I were shooting something really skimpy like 22 lr, 25 acp, 32 acp, maybe even 38 acp, there is a strong argument for the solid lead bullets. In 9mm and stronger, not as much.

Worst case scenario for a hollow point bullet is FMJ performance. Unless you are hunting big game, there are no drawbacks to expanding bullets if your semi-auto will feed them.

[tazman]

I'm seeing anywhere from 25" to 30" of penetration in ballistics gel for the 45 acp ball load. I do like bullets to pass through. If I were shooting something really skimpy like 22 lr, 25 acp, 32 acp, maybe even 38 acp, there is a strong argument for the solid lead bullets. In 9mm and stronger, not as much.

Worst case scenario for a hollow point bullet is FMJ performance. Unless you are hunting big game, there are no drawbacks to expanding bullets if your semi-auto will feed them.

That is certainly a lot of penetration.
I would probably get somewhat less with the load I am using. Lighter weight but same velocity.
Given your caveat for feeding, I don't see a drawback either. Being from a Dem controlled state, I am just thinking about a time when JHP bullets will not be available. I want to have something I can make myself. Cast lead boolits have been serving that purpose for a long time.
For both my 1911 pistols and my other semi-autos, I have that covered with cast boolits in both 9mm and 45ACP. 40S&W also but I only have one of those.
Revolvers are no problem. 38/357 loads are easy enough to make.

[35remington]

Given I have little enthusiasm for shooting deer with RN FMJ at typical handgun velocities for good reason, and deer approximate humans in size, something that makes a bit larger hole is appreciated. Keep in mind deer are also double lunged most of the time with a single hit while humans are not.

Critters of smaller size run off some distressingly long distances before succumbing when hit by 9mm and 45 RN FMJ. Not confidence inspiring.

[tazman]

Given I have little enthusiasm for shooting deer with RN FMJ at typical handgun velocities for good reason, and deer approximate humans in size, something that makes a bit larger hole is appreciated. Keep in mind deer are also double lunged most of the time with a single hit while humans are not.

Critters of smaller size run off some distressingly long distances before succumbing when hit by 9mm and 45 RN FMJ. Not confidence inspiring.

All true.
Critters tend to get hit with a single shot, though where humans tend to get hit multiple times.
Reactions are different. A critter will bolt making follow up shot difficult if not impossible. Humans tend to freeze for a short time due to the shock of getting hit making follow up shots more likely.

[dverna]

I cannot envision an expanding bullet that offers 15" of penetration ever being worse than a solid with the same penetration.

It may not matter in a deer than cannot kill you, but in a self defense scenario, achieving death as quickly as possible is the goal.

Shoot non expanding .380's if that works for you. I think it is a poor choice.

BTW, I have little faith in what the FBI deems "adequate". I want more than "adequate". And like tazman, I am not concerned about the bullet exiting the target.

[redneck1]

You can color me contrary here , but my first choice for ammunition
Is ammunition that is reliably consistent , it must feed , go bang and hit where I aim it every single time .

Any other considerations come after that . I won't jump into the expansion versus none argument because it doesn't matter to me and I know nothing about it .

Reliability is my concern above all else .

[Froogal]

You can color me contrary here , but my first choice for ammunition
Is ammunition that is reliably consistent , it must feed , go bang and hit where I aim it every single time .

Any other considerations come after that . I won't jump into the expansion versus none argument because it doesn't matter to me and I know nothing about it .

Reliability is my concern above all else .

I agree. Reliability and accuracy is more important than anything else. A .22 is not my first choice for self defense, but several, well placed .22 rounds can still be very effective.

[Lefty Red]

In calibers like 40S&W and 9mm and 357mag, I would like a good hollow point. Lots of speed and penetration in these calibers.

But with 45ACP, 380ACP, and 38spl I’m good with hardball. Maybe even a SWC. In a living target with different densities of organic material to get through, these need more penetration help.

But, that is just my observation/opinion.

Lefty

[tazman]

You can color me contrary here , but my first choice for ammunition
Is ammunition that is reliably consistent , it must feed , go bang and hit where I aim it every single time .

Any other considerations come after that . I won't jump into the expansion versus none argument because it doesn't matter to me and I know nothing about it .

Reliability is my concern above all else .

That isn't being contrary. Those are the first requirements of any defensive load. If the load doesn't work like you stated, it isn't a good load.
The expansion is a secondary consideration. That said, anything that helps the performance of a defensive load is worth considering. Expansion is one of those things.

[35remington]

I am not aware that 45 ACP with a decent JHP is underpenetrative even given rather wide expansion, so I do not see it as requiring the “penetration help” of a nonexpanding bullet. 380 yes oftentimes....45, absolutely not.

Review widely posted studies to get a more accurate and representative picture of which calibers do what. In penetration 45 ACP has little to distinguish it from other adequate calibers using expanding bullets. FMJ penetrates quite a lot. The 45 ACP does not “need” FMJ to attain reasonable penetration for defensive use.

I do not consider the overpenetration concern as relevant as putting a decent sized hole through something important.

[35remington]

Some results that illustrate the point above.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#45ACP

[rfd]

You can color me contrary here , but my first choice for ammunition
Is ammunition that is reliably consistent , it must feed , go bang and hit where I aim it every single time .

Any other considerations come after that . I won't jump into the expansion versus none argument because it doesn't matter to me and I know nothing about it .

Reliability is my concern above all else .

a voice of reason. i agree.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

You can color me contrary here , but my first choice for ammunition
Is ammunition that is reliably consistent , it must feed , go bang and hit where I aim it every single time .

Any other considerations come after that . I won't jump into the expansion versus none argument because it doesn't matter to me and I know nothing about it .

Reliability is my concern above all else .

We probably think alike. Where I'm going with this is ammo expense and practice. The premium performance ammo is often priced at a point where testing its reliability is prohibitive (for my budget anyway). I just can't afford to burn off 1,000 rounds of Federal HST.

If you look at Lucky Gunner there are a number of 147 grain 9mm offerings that failed to expand but fell squarely within the 12-18" of penetration for the FBI's criteria. 147 grains is heavy-for-caliber in 9mm so the weight/velocity must be balanced just-so. You'll see a number of .45 bullets that fail to expand but those over-penetrated. So for .45 you could probably dial back the velocity even.

[charlie b]

Reliability first.

Penetration through the vitals is second.

Expending all the bullet energy in the target is third.

And all of these assume that you can hit the vital area of a target.

IMHO the good thing about the FBI test standards is the number of cartridges developed by the mfgs to specifically meet the criteria. Especially the ability to expand and dump energy in a target after penetrating heavy clothing, something that older hollow point bullets failed at miserably.

Also interesting are the different bullets made for different cartridges, such as the .380 vs 9mm, .38spl vs .357mag, .40 vs 10mm, etc. You get bullets designed to work at the velocity of the cartridge, not a 'one size fits all'. And reliability has gone way up as well in the semi-autos. I buy all of my carry ammo because of this. I don't think you need to shoot 1000rnds to determine reliability. For me it is between 100 and 200. Many years has shown me that ammo that is unreliable will show up in the first magazine or two, much of the time with the second or third round. Practice is easily done with cheap reloads of the same weight and velocity as the carry load.

If you want to carry your own ammo then the story is different as you need to craft the ammo to work well, both in the pistol and the target. I would not use ball ammo, but, that is what the .45ACP was designed around after the .38 ball ammo failed to perform (a controversy itself).

[tazman]

I just checked the Lucky Gunner site. They have some new results posted for Winchester Ranger T series 45ACP 230 grain JHP ammo that is really impressive.
!4" penetration with expansion of 1"(yes that is one inch).
Nobody has any in stock that I could find quickly. Some restrict the sale to law enforcement only which I find ridiculous(I have the same right to survive a shootout with a bad guy as LEOs do).

[Outpost75]

Animals and people are not any tougher or harder to kill today than they were in black powder days.

Most of the drive towards developing hollow-point handgun bullets for LE use was to reduce risk of collateral damage by reducing risk of riccochets and to prevent bullets from exiting the body, which would increase risk of injuring other officers or innocent bystanders.

HP bullets also improved the effectiveness of low-powered cartridges having marginal energy, notably the standard pressure .38 Special LRN service load. The .38 was effective enough if shots were well placed on vital areas of the torso, where the bullet was able to do its 180-degree "flip" continuing base-forward, but with poor shot placement .38 Special 158-grain LRN and 9mm FMJRN loads were "wounders."

Keith's and Hatcher's writings of the 1930s correctly described the attributes of flat-nosed bullets which gave deep penetration with good "crush" characteristics. The .38 Colt Special and .38 Colt New Police were markedly more effective than LRN loads of similar energy. Keith's high velocity flatnosed bullets with full diameter front driving band and sharp shoulder were well proven on game by the mid-1930s.

Black powder era cartridges such as the .44-40, firing a soft lead, flatnosed bullet at about 900 fps from a typical revolver, killed out of proportion to their kinetic energy and still do.

If one would simply follow Keith's advice to use a caliber with starts with a "4", firing a soft lead, half ounce, 6-10 BHN bullet, having a meplat larger than half of the bullet diameter, at about 900 fps, you have the exact performance needed for a defensive handgun or outdoorsman's "packing pistol."

250003250004

[35remington]

By today’s “ standards”a half ounce bullet at 900 fps “recoils too much.”

Thus the stampede to 9mm. Current thinking is all handgun calibers of 9mm power level or higher but in the same energy region have effectively the same wounding potential given suitable bullets.

Whether true or not is arguable. We seem these days to find previously manageable cartridges unmanageable to justify new thinking. In 25 years some other line of reasoning will be popular. We like change periodically.

In my opinion, RNFMJ is inferior to almost any alternative bullet of better tissue affecting shape and adequate penetration. That appears to be less arguable given what is known.

I am in substantial agreement with the previous commentary above.

[bmortell]

id agree RNFMJ basically the worst possible choice. with amazing collections of data like the lucky gunner linked earlier why not just pick which one does what you like, be it more expansion or more pen.

[charlie b]

I also find it interesting that the .38spl LHPSWC bullets had almost perfect penetration and little to no expansion. I would suspect a plain 158gn SWC bullet would do as well. I wonder if the Army would have contracted for the .45 if they had just used a SWC design instead of a round nose. It seemed to satisfy the FBI for many years.

[35remington]

The very slightest puckering of a hollowpoint such that the bullet resembles an oatmeal container noticeably attenuates penetration. The classic “mushroom” expansion is probably not a characteristic the 38 LSWCHP +P 158 exhibits in actual human involved shootings from snubby length barrels.

Still was and is considered effective. A harder cast non hollow point bullet of similar shape but lacking any degree of deformation, however slight, will penetrate quite substantially more than the softer swaged LSWCHP will. I consider the performance in the LG tests to be quite acceptable and am unconcerned what the bullet does in expansion as long as the penetration criteria is well met.

[Love Life]

Holes kill stuff. I do t find a hollow point necessary. If it’s what I have at the time the. I use them, but the majority of the time I have solids in my pistols.

[lefty o]

holes kill stuff, but bigger nasty jagged holes kill things quicker. particularily if discussing self defense, short of a central nervous system hit, the average 2 legged critter shot thru the heart can still kill you while they bleed out. my opinion is to make the time that takes to happen as little as possible. adrenaline is an incredible thing and can keep a dead man in the fight for a short time before they realize they are dead.

[USSR]

As for me, I likes my .45's (and .38's) to expand.

250028

Don

[M-Tecs]

It been a while since I have read Handgun Stopping Power by Marshall but if I remember correctly 9mm ball was about 30% for one shot stops. 45 ACP ball was about 50%. With good hollow points both are over 90% so yes expansion increases stopping power.

Some light wound ballistics here. https://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs/wwii/woundblstcs/default.htm

In 1974 as 14 year old I purchased a new Colt Gold Cup. I shot a lot of jack rabbits with it. I started with ball but some solid hits failed to anchor them. I switched to 200 hollow points and it was like the hammer of Thor hit them. I also shot them with a 45 Colt but that had a medium sized meplat cast and that also worked very well.

[Lefty Red]

Some results that illustrate the point above.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#45ACP

LGs test shows that the best penetrations with the JHPs were mostly NOT expanded. And those JHPs that did expand were in the shallow end of FBI acceptable penetration.

Looks like Speer and Hornady and Golden Sabers look good. And seems +p is a good choice in these offerings.

Lefty

[35remington]

The “shallow end” for a few types was around a couple of inches past the FBI standard, as in beyond what is considered needed, and it is no great trick to find an expanding JHP that goes further than that. All calibers had a few under penetrating examples mostly frangible ammo or lightweight for caliber bullets that expanded too widely. We can safely ignore those in all instances.

Handily substantiates my statement that the 45 does not “need” nonexpanding bullets to be usable for defensive use and is competitive in penetration to other calibers when using hollowpoint bullets. This is well known in the wound ballistic community.

The best penetration with all calibers was with nonexpanding bullets, so no news there. Since you ended your post noting several different brands of JHP that did well in the test (I counted about near 20 candidates from this test alone which is not all encompassing) it appears you are in substantial agreement with my comment that the 45 ACP does not need ball ammo to attain adequate penetration. Enough said on that point.

[Tom W.]

I carry what I practice with, and for me it's cast coww. I hope that I'll never have to shoot or draw down on another person, but if I have to shoot I want to know that the gun will go bang and the boolits will go where I'm pointing them.
Confidence in your equipment is paramount.

[charlie b]

LGs test shows that the best penetrations with the JHPs were mostly NOT expanded. And those JHPs that did expand were in the shallow end of FBI acceptable penetration.

Looks like Speer and Hornady and Golden Sabers look good. And seems +p is a good choice in these offerings.

Lefty

The Hornady Critical Duty rounds fully expanded and penetrated to the far end of the scale. It is exactly what they were designed to do so it is not surprising (they were designed to meet the full FBI criteria, including the glass and metal portions). The Critical Defense rounds also fully expanded and are designed to penetrate to the near end of the scale after going through clothing, which is exactly what they do.

And you are right, many of the others did not fully expand on every shot.

[Lefty Red]

The “shallow end” for a few types was around a couple of inches past the FBI standard, as in beyond what is considered needed, and it is no great trick to find an expanding JHP that goes further than that. All calibers had a few under penetrating examples mostly frangible ammo or lightweight for caliber bullets that expanded too widely. We can safely ignore those in all instances.

Handily substantiates my statement that the 45 does not “need” nonexpanding bullets to be usable for defensive use and is competitive in penetration to other calibers when using hollowpoint bullets. This is well known in the wound ballistic community.

The best penetration with all calibers was with nonexpanding bullets, so no news there. Since you ended your post noting several different brands of JHP that did well in the test (I counted about near 20 candidates from this test alone which is not all encompassing) it appears you are in substantial agreement with my comment that the 45 ACP does not need ball ammo to attain adequate penetration. Enough said on that point.

I don’t think I stated that. It we can agree to disagree. I look at the chart and see something different than you. I’m still under the expression that the 45ACP penetrates better with SWC or RN, especially in biological targets with different density of organic tissue and bone. And the addition of barrel length helps all bullet shapes. IMHO.

But you are right, enough said between you and me on this subject.

Lefty

[35remington]

Yes, all calibers penetrate better in targets, biological and otherwise, with RN and SWC when compared to hollowpoints.

[Earlwb]

In my opinion, the best bullets in the world will not do you any good unless you can hit the target. I remember reading how quite a few police officers have fired huge numbers of rounds at a suspect and not even hit them even. So at least hitting the target ought to be a high priority. Now then with that said a FMJ or plain lead bullet is still very effective. Most firearms are very reliable with FMJ bullets too. But a good hollow point bullet that expands reliably does offer a better chance of the bullet nicking or cutting an artery or damaging a vital organ if it passes by close. A FMJ might not quite damage something vital.

[Drm50]

45 GI ball for me. Positive feed, plenty of killing power. You can only kill something dead. I just keep fresh top of the line Win or Rem ball and don't worry about it.

[35remington]

The disturbing thing about the cited study is it posits that gun regulation limiting the power or caliber of the handgun should be considered based on the results found.

So, we not only would face a push to limit how many rounds a pistol could carry, but an attempt to limit its lethality on a per shot basis as well. Just what we need...a legislative attempt to make us carry Jennings pistols chambered in 22 short.

If my life is worth defending, legislative attempts to weaken the firearm I can use and make it less effective in protecting me and mine because some gang banger shoots another lowlife with a pistol termed “too lethal” is the height of left leaning folly.

After the last assault weapons ban larger caliber pistols enjoyed something of a resurgence. They want to go after that someday too. It is not just one thing they are after.

Threats to liberty go sadly unrecognized by those interested in “public good” over personal safety.

[pettypace]

If you look at Lucky Gunner there are a number of 147 grain 9mm offerings that failed to expand but fell squarely within the 12-18" of penetration for the FBI's criteria. 147 grains is heavy-for-caliber in 9mm so the weight/velocity must be balanced just-so.

A 147 grain 9mm that fails to expand "should" penetrate about 28" of gelatin. If, instead, it manages to satisfy the FBI's 12"-18" penetration criteria, I'd bet that it "tumbled" -- flipped 180 degrees and continued on base forward. My guess is that there isn't much practical difference between tumbling into the FBI's 12"-18" criteria or expanding into it.

[35remington]

The 38 Special data leads one to ponder whether that is true for that caliber as well. I suspect it is, with noted exception being the lighter bullets and the reduced sectional density playing its associated role.

In some instances modest deformation notably attenuates penetration but little commentary is given in the data about any observed tumbling behavior.

[GregLaROCHE]

You can color me contrary here , but my first choice for ammunition
Is ammunition that is reliably consistent , it must feed , go bang and hit where I aim it every single time .

Any other considerations come after that . I won't jump into the expansion versus none argument because it doesn't matter to me and I know nothing about it .

Reliability is my concern above all else .

Don’t forget boolit placement. More practice at the range could make more of a difference than boolit expansion.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Outpost75, I have a different opinion on the development of hollow points in law enforcement. I retired 4 years ago after 33 years of service, and started in 1975 as a cadet.

IMO the hollow point was developed because it was believed to give minor caliber .35” ammo more umph. And .35 caliber guns were favored in law enforcement because they weighed less on the hip.

Another reason minor caliber guns are in law enforcement gun is due to their ability to fire rapidly. Law enforcement wants guns that are easier to pass a timed fire qualification course.

Personally I carried a 1911 .45. single stack. What was/is important to me is a big bullet, good sights, a light trigger and practice. These factors are far more important than hollow points, magazine capacity or rate of fire.

[9.3X62AL]

I line right up with 35 Remington's and Outpost 75's posts within this thread. I haven't shot much Jello, but I have attended autopsies and interviewed trauma surgeons at some length. Without a shred of doubt--Elmer Keith's "Half-ounce, .40"+, 900 FPS" standard is a good one. The people our deputies shot with 40 S&W and 45 ACP Ranger SXT of 180 and 230 grain (now the WWB JHP loads in those calibers) did fine work when exchanging finality with people meaning to kill our personnel. Defense of self and others is serious business, and serious calibers with serious ammunition are called for.

I know that the top-of-the-line defensive ammo is expensive, it runs about $1.25 per shot. I don't know if or how it could be better than the affordable WWB 40 S&W and 45 ACP my shop has carried and used with complete satisfaction since the 1990s. I have seen the recovered bullets at trauma rooms and at autopsies. Almost every one of the 40 and 45 caliber bullets looked like ad copy for Winchester ammunition. Most recipients got the message after 1-4 rounds connected, I should add.

I am a big believer in practicing with a load as much like your carry ammo as possible. I use the Lee truncated cone castings in both 40 S&W and 45 ACP, seated with .020" of front drive band exposed above the case mouth.

In 40 S&W, the WWB load goes about 935 FPS from my CZ-75B and about 915 FPS from my Glock 23. 4.7 grains of WW-231 beneath the Lee 175 TC duplicates this very closely. Yes, the Glock 23 uses its OEM barrel, bullets sized @ .401". No mushroom clouds have resulted.

In 45 ACP, the WWB JHPs run about 865 FPS from my SIG-Sauer P-220 and just a few FPS under 900 FPS from my Gold Cup NM. These will be clipped into my PC 625 that gets paroled by Gov. Gruesome in 2 days. 5.5 grains of WW-231 under the 230 Lee TC (or the Lyman #452374) sized at .452" does a fine imitation of the WWB load.

Hunting armed men is not like fly-fishing, where credit accrues for handling large fish on light tackle.

[kingrj]

Interesting discussion of expanding vs nonexpanding bullet performance. My testing using about 3 dozen deer as test subjects is that I have got bang flops with the .44 magnum using JHP's and hard cast SWC's and I have had 50 yard runs using both. However I came to the conclusion that the test subjects did not like either very much! I doubt a human attacker would either..

[tazman]

Paul Harrell of Youtube did a test with some non-hollow point bullets and got some interesting results. One bullet, in particular gave impressive results. It is worth the watch.
Run time just under 8 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1xpAbV2gsQ&t=406s

[USSR]

What was/is important to me is a big bullet, good sights, a light trigger and practice.

Truer words were never said.

Don

[lefty o]

Truer words were never said.

Don

pretty close. i dont worry too much about bigger bullets, but sights and trigger sure help. the biggest bullet in the world, expanding or not is useless if you cant put it where it needs to go.

[pettypace]

Here are Fackler wound profiles for three different .36 caliber rounds. The 12" - 18" FBI penetration requirement is shown in green.

250723

Some questions come to mind:

*Is the .38 Special LRN really as bad as its reputation?
*Would a hard cast Keith SWC at .38 Special +P velocities be any more effective than the LRN?
*Is the current crop of .38 +P LSWCHP ammo as effective as the FBI load in Fackler's profile?
*How effective is the FBI load shown in Fackler's profile when fired from a 2" barrel?
*How would the wound profile for a black powder 44-40 load compare to the FBI load in Fackler's profile?

[Groo]

Animals and people are not any tougher or harder to kill today than they were in black powder days.

Most of the drive towards developing hollow-point handgun bullets for LE use was to reduce risk of collateral damage by reducing risk of riccochets and to prevent bullets from exiting the body, which would increase risk of injuring other officers or innocent bystanders.

HP bullets also improved the effectiveness of low-powered cartridges having marginal energy, notably the standard pressure .38 Special LRN service load. The .38 was effective enough if shots were well placed on vital areas of the torso, where the bullet was able to do its 180-degree "flip" continuing base-forward, but with poor shot placement .38 Special 158-grain LRN and 9mm FMJRN loads were "wounders."

Keith's and Hatcher's writings of the 1930s correctly described the attributes of flat-nosed bullets which gave deep penetration with good "crush" characteristics. The .38 Colt Special and .38 Colt New Police were markedly more effective than LRN loads of similar energy. Keith's high velocity flatnosed bullets with full diameter front driving band and sharp shoulder were well proven on game by the mid-1930s.

Black powder era cartridges such as the .44-40, firing a soft lead, flatnosed bullet at about 900 fps from a typical revolver, killed out of proportion to their kinetic energy and still do.

If one would simply follow Keith's advice to use a caliber with starts with a "4", firing a soft lead, half ounce, 6-10 BHN bullet, having a meplat larger than half of the bullet diameter, at about 900 fps, you have the exact performance needed for a defensive handgun or outdoorsman's "packing pistol."

250003250004

Groo here
BINGO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!