More 357 Magnum Gel Testing J-words vs Cast

[curioushooter]

A general pattern is emerging. While cast boolits are capable of outstanding terminal performance, they seem to be capable of this performance only in a narrow velocity range, which somewhat limits their utility for rifles.

As I showed before the 359 Mihec hammer bullet with flat point pin expands magnificently and penetrates to a respectable depth at 1800 FPS. At 1200 FPS it is an icepick.

The 180 Grain Hornady XTP is not capable of quite the performance, clocking just under 1700 FPS in my Marlin with a charge of 16 grains of 300MP. At this velocity though that bullet nearly breaks apart, expanding to almost 3/4" of an inch and penetrates only 13". 80% retained weight. At a lower velocity (same load out of my 5" 686) of 1200 FPS this bullet still performs respectably, getting .58" of expansion and going deeper with 97% retained weight. So this could be a potential one load for two guns situation.

I did some more testing with moderate 357 loads. 13.5 grains of 2400 gets the 162 grain Hammer bullet with the small hollowpoint cavity going to nearly 1250 FPS in my 686. This load expanded beautifully to .635" and retained 100% of its weight. Same load out of my marlin and it blew up, shedding the entire hollowpoint section which broke into two parts and the core traveling to a greater depth. Not even 60% of the weight was retained in the three remaining fragments. It went 1600 FPS out of the marlin.

249973

[bmortell]

I dont really consider it a disadvantage since by nature cast are made as needed and alloys per application. A jacketed needs to work in who knows what out of who knows what gun, so a required advantage basically. Im happy just getting something good for my single application,

i increased tin for best expansion in my 30-06 based on your recomendation.
249980 i went from 1.5% to 3% and got it to keep its petals at 1800 impact into paper mush, got 220 gr 30 cal to .817" which for some reason is bigger than any 44 cast ive tested lol.

Below is 250gr 44 rifle testing comparing just air coww to a soft point where front 80gr is 1% tin 99% pure back is 50/50 heat treated. Air coww made a nice .75" mushroom while soft point kinda just smooshed the soft bit over the hard bit and is .65" and not as nice looking and barely kept full weight. But it would also work at lower speeds where only pure expands but wont be the best for any particular speed.

So thats sort of a way around your problem but id rather just optimize for 1 task.

[dangitgriff]

If a deer or even a wild hog were three feet across, then 13” of penetration from that 180-grain XTP might not be enough. Also, fragmentation is not a bad thing if a projectile is designed to dump its energy into a soft target like deer or pigs.
Finding a cast equivalent for penetration + expansion is a fun endeavor, I understand that. From what I’ve read and researched, there really is no “one” right answer. One would think the perfect alloy for 3-gun or steel or hunting would have been widely published by the year 2020. Also consider that jackets were added precisely because they were necessary to achieve the performance no alloy could match.
R/Griff

[Larry Gibson]

I've found, at the velocities your using in the rifle, if the bullet is GC'd then a binary lead/tin alloy works much better than any alloy with antimony in it. I use a 16-1 alloy at 1400 - 1800 fps with excellent terminal expansion effect.

I concur with dangitgriff that 13" of penetration is certainly sufficicient for deer and most hogs. Three plus feet of penetration are not needed unless one is partial to Texas heart shoots.......

[cwlongshot]

Have you ever tried a 140 FTX in these tests?

Im finding myself “stuck” using it as it simply shoots lights out for me. Thing is its going 2350 fps, and I fear it a bomb.

CW

[megasupermagnum]

If a deer or even a wild hog were three feet across, then 13” of penetration from that 180-grain XTP might not be enough. Also, fragmentation is not a bad thing if a projectile is designed to dump its energy into a soft target like deer or pigs.
Finding a cast equivalent for penetration + expansion is a fun endeavor, I understand that. From what I’ve read and researched, there really is no “one” right answer. One would think the perfect alloy for 3-gun or steel or hunting would have been widely published by the year 2020. Also consider that jackets were added precisely because they were necessary to achieve the performance no alloy could match.
R/Griff

A 3 foot wide deer?! We get some big deer around here, pushing 250 pound+, but the chest is closer to 12" (plus fur), maybe 16" on some big barrel chested brutes.

Besides that, curioushooter is using calibrated ballistics gel. It's a great, consistent test bed for COMPARATIVE purposes. 13" of penetration does not mean 13" of penetration in an animal. I've personally gutted 2 deer shot with the 180 grain XTP from a 357 magnum Ruger blackhawk at an estimated 1300 fps, as well as a 180 grain XTP from 10 mm auto, also at 1300 fps. All three were complete pass through. Two were great broadside shots, one (from 357 magnum) was down a hill, and at an angle. It passed through a good 16" of deer. I know you won't get 36" of straight line penetration from this load, but it is perfect for medium size game if you take good shots, and that doesn't mean you can't take shoulder, or frontal shots either.

[dangitgriff]

I appreciate your insight and will file it into memory for future reference.
I only have two questions, and that is, were you using the HP XTP’s, and, what the Sam-hill is ballistics gel supposed to emulate, in a relative manner, if not soft tissue? [emoji848]

[megasupermagnum]

I'm only seeing one type of 180 grain XTP for each the 38 and 40 calibers. It is a hollow point, and I saw no evidence to believe that all three bullets did not expand. Damage to the organs was plenty. I forgot to mention, ranges were short. Around the 20 yard mark for all three.

As for ballistics gel, that's a great question. I'll leave that to more knowledgeable people, but it's supposed to be a "body simulant". That includes skin, muscle, bone, organs, etc. Even the experts don't really know. What ballistics gel really offers is a consistent test bed that is recognized by everybody. It's for comparison purposes to other calibers/bullets, not be a 100% accurate representation of anything living.

[curioushooter]

Ballistic gel simulates muscle, not lung or brain or adipose tissue, which are both less dense and softer, and therefore offer less resistance. Calibrated ballistic gel is the worst case scenario, so a foot of penetration in it should be AT LEAST a foot on comparable target like a deer. Of course bones are another complication!

I corroborated the FBI spec of 2.9-3.5" of penetration with a 17 cal steel BB going 580-590 FPS in gel block vs a pork loin and a freshly killed deer haunch. All three got the business with my Daisy, all three were 2.9-3.5"

[cwlongshot]

Ya see... Thats what I always questioned. Beingbthe kid that I was I shot everything with a Daisy Springer.

That thing couldn't penetrate ANYTHING 2-3” from any distance. Furthermore anything with “skin” had armour... When we got hit maybe sometimes it embedded in the skin. MAYBE AND SOMETIMES.

If anything bal jell is repeatable but not at all a one for one. More like a 2 or 3:1. Meaning 3” was 1” in a living body. This is why 18” is a standard no normal person is 18” thick! 8-10” thur chest is more realistic. I have seen bullets in bodies how deep and much damage. These number from jell and the FBI minimums, have Always stuck in my brain with that question.

Just my speculations.

[BrutalAB]

I dont know the validity of this but i have seen where the fbi wants the 18" or whatever in case they have to make less than ideal shots. Such as going through an arm first.

[curioushooter]

My daisy isn't a springer. Those things could never achieve the necessary velocity to penetrate ~3" in gel or flesh. The Daisy 880, a multi-pump pneumatic with a 17 cal steel BB does this easily. The thing is no toy. I would not be surprised if it could penetrate a skull. They are good fun, accurate with pellets at the short ranges they can be used at, and quiet. I see Henry is producing these 22LR smoothbore rifles for "garden pests." Methinks the folks attracted to that need try a Daisy first.

I bought it for less than $40 specifically to do gel calibration. It is as essential as a chronograph AFAIC.

The reason why the FBI (and hunters) should desire ample penetration (150% to 200% of the average depth of the animal) is because shots are seldom perfect perpendicular shots. They can even be at extreme angles where this geometrically increases the depth sometimes to almost two feet on an average deer.

I consider pass through a positive. But passing through with ton of velocity left over is pointless. It doesn't make a bigger wound in the animal or improve terminal effectivness. In the rare handgun that has enough velocity to leave a serious exit wound (like a Contender with a bottleneck cartridge), this means exessive meat damage, too. Also certain cartridges like 357 maximum generate sufficient velocity in Contender to make solids expand reliably. Solids begin to expand around 1400 FPS. They reliably expand at 1600. These velocities rip apart cast HPs. A cup point has some hope. But I've only had jacketed bullet (XTPs specifically) hold together at these velocities.

Solids, even cast of rather soft alloys, have proven time and time again to not expand at normal handgun velocites. They all easily pass through. Even 38 special will pass through with a heavy solid. In a sense a 357 magnum and 38 special are EQUIVALENT in their wounding potential when using solids.

When using HPs a whole new world opens up (pun intended) where the magnum will have enough momentum at impact to make a wound ~3x greater in volume and still pass through! This is with the same recoil (a little less actually) and potentially the same level of accuracy. But it is something more complicated than "bullet makes hole" (which is what solids do at handgun velocity). With HPs a balance of expansion, penetration, retention, etc. needs to be found and it can be tricky. It is essential in my opinion to test with HPs otherwise you cannot be confident it will work. But even if the HP doesn't expand (the best case senario) it will do no worse than a solid will. The worse situation with a HP is too great of velocity, over-expansion, or insufficient momentum (using too light of a bullet). All of these will result in insufficient penetration.

[cwlongshot]

Cannot disagree at all CS.

Im a firm believer is heavy for caliber and slow and heavy beats fast and light for my needs.

Two holes simply have greater chance of a blood trail. Energy dump sounds great, While is 100% is true and real, the AMOUNT actually imparted isnt what most believe it to be. ;)

CW

[MT Gianni]

While an interesting experiment, there is a point where cast excels and that is zero or no expansion. There is a reason many consider the 243, 26 Nosler, Creedmore etc excellent hunting calibers and that is expansion. Many cast shooters want tissue disruption rather than expansion. Veral Smith documented the internal bleeding of animals when shot with a long narrow wound channel vs a larger shorter one. The body has an ability to quickly stop a short wide blood loss resulting in a long trail or if enough damage occurs, organ trauma resulting in a quicker kill. A longer narrow wound that has a non-quagulating blood loss, resulted in a dead animal, usually bleed out in 25 yards or less. Comparing how cast does to jacketed implies that we want to imitate it, rather than rediscovering what else works.

[cwlongshot]

But there is SO MUCH to that!!!

Bullet profile and diameter are two big ones along side velocity and then of coarse we all know “Where trumps What” ten times outta nine! :bigsmyl2:

CW

[dverna]

Mr Gibson has made a good point about using a binary alloy. Sb is a cheap way to get hardness but it also makes the alloy more brittle, and the bullet can lose integrity.

BTW, I have really enjoyed your posts. Thanks for sharing your work.

[Ramjet-SS]

I will argue this; a wide flat nose cast boolit does not have to expand. The WFN or even LFN with a meplat approaching close to .80 of the diameter driven at moderate and up velocity will do incredible stretch damage to the intended target. One has to ask why expansion? Simple; to displace more critical tissue like lung or heart. That momentary “splash” caused by velocity and the frontal area of the projectile translates into permanent damage which leads to damage of critical tissue needed for life. The “tissue splash” needs several elements to cause the most damage; diameter, velocity , penetration and of course it needs to hit critical tissue. So in your quest for the truth you focused allot on diameter and penetration. I still contend that a good WFN driven at a velocity appropriate for its diameter harvests game very effectively.

I have shot many deer I have shot 22 of them with a 475 Linebaugh 350 grain GC WFN loaded over 11 grains of Unique both from a John Linebaugh converted Bisley and a Number 1 Ruger. Those deer were shot from various angles and distances from 25 yards to 150 yards. Two of those included shots with deer looking straight at me. Others were quartering away to broadside. I only recovered one bullet that went through the deer into about 12 feet along the snow then lodging in the ground 6”. The damage to the deer depended on the distance (velocity) but all of those animals expired quickly and the internal damage was significant. That bullet I recovered a WFN with no expansion. In most cases the lungs were mush or the heart was taken out. The two facing me the bullet exited out the rear of the animal. I have also taken elk with 44 magnum handgun with 300 grain WFN bullets bullets did not exit were under the far side hide but the internal damage was significant. Those bullets I drove to max velocity because they were smaller in diameter but the WFN (diameter) + velocity disrupted critical tissue very well. Those elk traveled about 100 yards and down they went. This only two caliber examples but I am a firm believer in WFN cast the smaller the diameter or caliber the harder you want to drive them....

[curioushooter]

Where can one go to study Veral Smith's work? I would like to know how he did those experiments.

[cwlongshot]

He has been fairly active over on Greybeards cast bullet area for many years. But learn know his personality he is quite set in his ways and how he does things. It is HIS BOARD, and when posting there know he will remind anyone of that. But he is a wealth of information.

CW

[Ramjet-SS]

Where can one go to study Veral Smith's work? I would like to know how he did those experiments.

You could buy his book it is one more good source most of what I referenced was first hand experience. Of course I will admit Veral was an influence but in the end I had to find things out for myself.

[curioushooter]

I've read his book Jacketed Performance with Cast Bullets years ago. I do not recall any terminal ballistic stuff in it besides the usual unsubstantiated say-so stuff you read everywhere. Unless you are using a valid test medium you are wasting your time. The fact that he doesn't offer Hollowpoint molds in handgun calibers speaks volumes to me.

[MT Gianni]

You can read it in his book in the latter chapters or in the Beartooth Bullet guide which I believe is now out of print as the owner of that site retired. Both involved damage hunting deer in fields and pictures of bullet tracks and internal damage. The fact that Veral doesn't offer a HP mold speaks volumes to me as well, he believes in what he offers.
IIRC, the controlled harvest was 125-150 per year on the damage hunts.

[Ramjet-SS]

I've read his book Jacketed Performance with Cast Bullets years ago. I do not recall any terminal ballistic stuff in it besides the usual unsubstantiated say-so stuff you read everywhere. Unless you are using a valid test medium you are wasting your time. The fact that he doesn't offer Hollowpoint molds in handgun calibers speaks volumes to me.

This is funny so many who subscribe to WFN lethality in harvesting game will disagree with this assertion. It’s funny you think ballistic gel testing somehow is more authoritative than real life accounts on game. I for one think you are wrong about two things one you need a hollow point for handguns. Two-you take ballistic gel controlled testing over real life evaluation of performance based on game harvested. I can tell you I have taken no less than 50 head of game with WFN/LFN cast boolits up to and including Elk and the results mirror the assertion in his book and conversations with Veral.

To each his own but it’s funny.....:bigsmyl2:

[BrutalAB]

I like to have an idea how my boolit will perform before I fire it at game.

Gel is repeatable, and you can shoot it any time of the year you want. Here in ky, one has 2 weeks to test boolits on deer.

[Crustyshooter]

Have you ever tried a 140 FTX in these tests?

Im finding myself “stuck” using it as it simply shoots lights out for me. Thing is its going 2350 fps, and I fear it a bomb.

CW
My one shot at the biggest whitetail buck I have ever seen was made at 35 feet, with the buck broadsides to me and he even stopped to look at me! My Marlin 1894C was loaded with 140 FTX's and sighted in for that round. At the shot, he staggered for 2 paces and then took off like a shot! I put one more round at him at about 40yds and watched him disappear! Called my hunting companions on the radio and began the 1/2 hour wait, convinced he was mortally hit! When the first of my buddies arrived we checked out where the buck was standing on the shot and found an impressive blood spatter. Tracking the buck put him up several times and the blood trail was easy to follow but he was not staying down! We tracked him for 6 km, before giving up due to loosing daylight, but resumed the search the next morning but found no buck! I still wake up nights deeply troubled at loosing that fine animal! That rifle is very accurate and I am an experienced hunter and I am convinced the bullet failed and blew up on the rib cage! Checking the Hornady manual, that bullet is designed for people, not large game! My mistake! My previous Bambi rifle was a 6.5 Swedish firing 140 gn jacketed bullets and the last 9 shots with it got me 9 white tails over the years! I have since discovered the Venerable 45/70 Gov't and have developed a high respect for its 300-405 gn cast projectiles and am anxiously awaiting the next deer season (11 months away)!

[cwlongshot]

I’m not so sure a bullet knows the difference between what it’s shot at. But That’s my exact worry. Being so close vel High. Much blood, I agree bullet blow up. Terrible thing. Apologies.

The bullet is a rifle bullet designed for the 357 as a hunting round as described to me by speaking with Hornady directly. We shot it at 2200 into wet news papers and it was impressive with 6-8” penetration and about 60% retention. But still I’m conserned gonna try on coyotes. We usually have a couple by now. But weather every weekend this year so far limits hunting time. Breeding season approaches quick for coyotes. Make em easier to call. Hope to try it out.

CW

[MT Gianni]

I have respect for Hornaday's product but every time I see FTX, I think failure to expand. No basis that is just what jumps to mind.

[cwlongshot]

That’s odd and completely opposite what I experience myself.

I find every FTX I have shot to expand EASIER AND FASTER than advertised or expected.

The 30/30-160, the 35-200, the 45-200, the 45-225 the 45-250. That’s multiple animals
For most all those listed sans the 200 45 which BLEW UP @ 1600 fps on a coyote. SOFTBALL SIZED EXIT AND GOLF BALL ENTRANCE. That coyote wasn’t 5” across the chest on the broadside shot I took. One doe shot with the 30/30 had a base ball entrance and depth hole in her side. She was DRT must have sent shards deeper. A bloody mess. 3/4 deer with my 450 and a 250 FTX shows shrapnel exits on shoulder shots. No solid chunk exits.

99% of my shots are inside 100. 95% of those inside 50!

CW

[JSH]

I like the 357. I was assured for years it was just border line for deer, so I never really was amused and stayed with the .44.
Started casting, 357 TC was at hand. I have found the 35’s easy to work with, it either flies or it doesn’t. There are some “favorite pet” bullets and loads I have tried and tried with no luck.

Went with one of the early group buys years ago with a 35 mold designed to work in a lever gun or wheel gun. Weighs 180ish with my alloy. The harder I push it the better it grouped.
GP100 6” and Marlin carbine are fed the same diet. Both have taken mature whitetails with no problem. Complete pass through at every angle I have tried to retrieve a bullet.

The WFN I believe has a lot of hydraulic shock working for it from organ damage I have seen. Hit and bone and it sprays bone shards like crazy. I have had lungs to mush and bruised the heart up real bad.
Bad on me deflected by brush shot, blew a hole through the brisket and off side front shoulder, rib bones totally shredded the heart,DRT. For just really nicking a critter, it dropped as quack as any I ever saw.