4F Blackpowder?

[Texas by God]

Can it be used for cartridge loading- specifically 44 WCF? I have a pound with nary a flintlock in sight. Thanks!

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[John Boy]

Can it be used for cartridge loading- specifically 44 WCF?

Not in my reloading room! Every grade of BP has a specific purpose and FFFFg is pan powder for flint locks.
If you were to use it, there is no loading data for the powder in 44-40's. So you would have to be a 'knowledge' reloader and work up a charge using a chronograph - which I presume you don't own one

[indian joe]

Can it be used for cartridge loading- specifically 44 WCF? I have a pound with nary a flintlock in sight. Thanks!

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Have used (homemade - but got plenty of grunt) FFFFg in 357 magnum and 32/20 without any signs of problem - model 92 actions - I think my "just in case meter" would read no to 44/40 - mainly because my favourite 44/40 is a brass frame 66.

[WRideout]

A friend gave me a pound of black powder that was labeled FFF but on inspection was FFFF. I asked the question on this forum about what it could be used for, and got the usual answer about flintlock priming. Later I saw in an article about black that FFFF could be used for firearms below 36 cal, as I recall. Since I had a 7.62 Nagant revolver, I loaded up a few, and it worked fine. Having said that, I would probably limit my use of FFFF to small caliber cartridge loads.

Wayne

[webfoot10]

The only use of FFFFG powder that I can find is in the LYMAN Blackpowder Handbook
from 1975. The loads listed are in the blackpowder revolver chapter.
31 cal with RB, 10.0 grs, 694 fps. 13 grs, 795 fps. 5 3/4 " BBL
36 cal with RB, 14 grs to 26 grs, 27.5 maximum charge. 7 1/2 " BBL
36 cal with bullet #37583 9 grs to 15 grs. 15 grs maximum charge. 7 1/2 " BBL
44 cal with RB, 19.0 to 33.0 grs, 37 maximum charge, 8" BBl
44 cal with bullet #450229, 19.0 grs to 25.0 grs, 28 grs maximum load.
Ruger Old Army, with 7 1/2" BBL, 31.0 to 41.0 grs maximum charge, with RB.
Ruger Old Army , with 7 1/2 BBL, with bullet #45468, 26.0 grs to 35.0 grs.
3/4 of maximum charge weight - Reduced volume taken up by corn meal filler.
I would say that ffffg is OK to use in a modern gun.
But I would still work up to max loads. And use fillers to take up any space between
projectile and powder. All these loads were worked up in special pressure revolvers,
except the Ruger Old Army. These were the loads out of the Lyman book. So use at
your own risk.
webfoot10

[Texas by God]

Thank you all. I was hoping that someone had experience with it. So- does the finer granulation increase the burn rate and /or pressure? I’ve been under the impression that granule size is the only difference in black powder grades; I guess not? I have primed flintlocks with 3F and it worked fine but I will listen to the collective knowledge here.
This was a what if? Type question to begin with.

[indian joe]

Thank you all. I was hoping that someone had experience with it. So- does the finer granulation increase the burn rate and /or pressure?

I dont have it to to hand to quote but plenty of evidence out there to say yes to this - definitely changing from F to FF to FFF increases burn rate and pressure - should follow for FFFF ?yes?

I’ve been under the impression that granule size is the only difference in black powder grades; I guess not?
The composition is unchanged but as grain size decreases we have exponentially more surface area exposed to initial ignition (halve the grain size = four times the surface area)

I have primed flintlocks with 3F and it worked fine but I will listen to the collective knowledge here.
yes that will wok but FFFF will work that bit quicker - a good flintlock would proly still work with Fg in the pan but your follow through on the shot would need to be real good!
This was a what if? Type question to begin with.
.........

[smithnframe]

Elmer Keith used to grind 4F in a mortar and pestle to talcum powder fineness and load 45 Colt cartridges with it to get higher velocities! He stopped the practice after having a SAA blow up in his hand. He then switched to the 44 spl. cartridge and the rest is history!

[StrawHat]

The problem EK experienced was the much used cartridge case failed. This allowed the gases to blow off the loading gate and slice his finger. Case failure, not revolver failure.

He also blew up a number of 44s and other revolvers in his experiments.

He did pursue higher pressures with the 44 Special.

Kevin

[John in PA]

Thank you all. I was hoping that someone had experience with it. So- does the finer granulation increase the burn rate and /or pressure? I’ve been under the impression that granule size is the only difference in black powder grades; I guess not? I have primed flintlocks with 3F and it worked fine but I will listen to the collective knowledge here.
This was a what if? Type question to begin with.

YES. Finer grained powder has more surface area per volume in a given grain. This allows faster burn, and a quicker rise to the pressure curve. It is extremely unlikely that you would damage a modern firearm with good quality brass in a pistol cartridge filled to the base of the bullet with 4F powder. But you may not gain anything in accuracy, and surprisingly little in velocity. Possibly also increased fouling. By all means burn up what you've got, but replace with proper granulation in the future.

[megasupermagnum]

The problem EK experienced was the much used cartridge case failed. This allowed the gases to blow off the loading gate and slice his finger. Case failure, not revolver failure.

He also blew up a number of 44s and other revolvers in his experiments.

He did pursue higher pressures with the 44 Special.

Kevin

Do you have a source for this? I seem to remember in sixguns, him telling about two original colt 45's he managed to blow up. One must have been the fine black powder, and the other I want to say was #80 dupont or something odd. I do not think Elmer Keith ever blew up a 44 special.

I too am interested in loading 4Fg into a small cartridge. I don't know about 44-40, but I think it might be interesting in 327 federal, 32-20 (modern guns), and 357 magnum.

[Texas by God]

I’m not trying for a hot load; just A use what you got type load. Start at low .44 cap&ball loads with filler and see what happens. I’ll segregate some odd cases and cast some soft 200 rnfp. When I break the sound barrier from my 20”Topper I’ll call it good.
Johnboy- I’ve been gathering “knowledge” about reloading since 1972 when I started this hobby. I’ve developed many loads with and without a chronograph. I sold the last one I had because I got tired of setting it up and taking it down just to compile data. I’m a simple guy; the only results I look at is game killed or groups on paper. I have a true 1/4MOA .308 in the safe that I load with every component weighed and runout sorted and it bores me. A chronograph won’t tell you anything about pressure except “whoa- that load is fast!” The stiff opening bolt is a clue, though.

[FLINTNFIRE]

I would use it in it and as for the 4f is better in a priming pan did our forefathers use it and reading books on the subject more evidence that no they used the same powder as in the barrel and grades of powder are somewhat different today then older days , but to each their own .

I use 3f in everything , have used the other grades and not as much difference noticed as people would have you believe . This like many questions will get as many naysayers as use it and load accordingly and as for more fouling I remember when people said use finer grades for less fouling , and fouling seemed to me to be a lube issue at times to .

You know what to do from the tone of your replies to advice so go have fun and let us know.

[toot]

I shoot a 4 FFFF black powder 15-20 grains load in both my original and reproduction 31 CAL. revolvers with not a problem. it is a listed load in GEORGE C NONTE'S book 2sd, edition 1968 on black powder guns.

[Cast_outlaw]

I would not as the risk of turning a beautiful 44wcf into scrap metal is not that appealing along my body is not into getting hid with flying debris so I’d just use it to touch off my cannon 250179
250180

[Surculus]

Can it be used for cartridge loading- specifically 44 WCF? I have a pound with nary a flintlock in sight.

For .44wcf? You could probably get away with it in a modern Ruger [ie: strong] revolver, but nothing vintage. If you were loading for something that corresponds to the correct use [.22, .28, .31 C&B equivalents in cartridge form] then woohoo! Load away! If you don't have anything that small, then it might be time to buy one of the C&B versions of the NAA Mini revolver. Can't think of a better justification... ;-)

Other than that, you could use it as a booster charge [a dash right over the primer] if all you had for your 44WCF was slow 2F musket powder.

See if someone on the 22 BP reloading thread here on Cast Boolits is local to you & looking for some appropriate powder for their experiments?

[Surculus]

Do you have a source for this? I seem to remember in sixguns, him telling about two original colt 45's he managed to blow up. One must have been the fine black powder, and the other I want to say was #80 dupont or something odd. I do not think Elmer Keith ever blew up a 44 special.

I too am interested in loading 4Fg into a small cartridge. I don't know about 44-40, but I think it might be interesting in 327 federal, 32-20 (modern guns), and 357 magnum.

Uh, the *length* of the powder column is a critical feature in BP loads, since the adiabatic heating & pressure rise can outpace the flame front & lead to detonation [my understanding of the physics may be wrong here, so don't take that as gospel.] Using the 4f in the long cases of the latter cartridges you mention may therefore be contraindicated. Don't know the relevant limits [each granulation has its own upper limit on column length, hence the use of slower powders for bigger loads.] The critical information is probably out there in some vintage reloading manual, but got lost in the intervening decades as "Everyone knows not to do this" fought with "we can eek some more profits out of the next printing by cutting out X pages by elimination of unneeded text/using smaller type/etc..."

[Larry Gibson]

If all goes well I'll be testing some GOEX ffffg in 45 Colt under the Lyman 454190 tomorrow. Also a couple loads under a 230 gr bullet. Not the 44 WCF but assuming the 45 Colt actual measured pressure results will shed some light on the topic.

[Outpost75]

Not in my reloading room! Every grade of BP has a specific purpose and FFFFg is pan powder for flint locks. If you were to use it, there is no loading data for the powder in 44-40's. So you would have to be a 'knowledge' reloader and work up a charge using a chronograph - which I presume you don't own one

I have used a "pinch" of 4Fg as a booster to improve ignition and clean burning of IMR4198 and RL7 for revolver use in the .44-40. Rifle velocity with a 4-5 grain booster and then filing the case to 1/8" compression with the slow smokeless is little different than straight RL7 or 4198 when shot in the El Tigre or Marlin 1894, but the BP booster next to the primer greatly reduced the amount of unburned smokeless powder left in revolver chambers, compared to firing loads without it. Normal smokeless cleaning methods work fine.

I DO NOT use the duplex loads in my 1905 Colt SA or 1920 Colt New Service, but only in my 1986 S&W Model 544 Texas Wagon Train and John Taylor custom Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 Mag/.44-40 convertible, and in my two rifles.

[Texas by God]

If all goes well I'll be testing some GOEX ffffg in 45 Colt under the Lyman 454190 tomorrow. Also a couple loads under a 230 gr bullet. Not the 44 WCF but assuming the 45 Colt actual measured pressure results will shed some light on the topic.Thanks, Larry. I'll be interested in your results. I tried 20 grs. with maltomeal filler compressed under a 200 gr flat point and it was a total non- event as I expected- akin to a light cap and ball revolver load.

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[Larry Gibson]

Major sad face today......Strain gauge connection broke loose on 1st shot of test.......:cry:

That seems to be a reoccurring problem with Will put on another tomorrow and try it again. My first test load was with34.5 gr FFFG under the 454190 bullet.....also was a non eventful but heavy recoiling load........Just didn't get any data.........

[Chill Wills]

This looks very interesting!!!

45 Colt?

Blackhawk? maybe a Contender or lever rifle?

I have a lot of 4F cleaned out of cans of 2F from the old days before Swiss. (screened)
I have been burning it in my Ruger Old Army. My 4F stash exceeds the rate my son and I can plink it up anytime soon. Also, a full case in a 44 mag seems like it could be workable in some form or another.

I will be interested to hear what you come up with. Thanks for putting in the time and effort to test and share the data.

[Larry Gibson]

Got the pressure test of GOEX 4fg BP in the 45 Colt completed today.

I had six loads of GOEX 4fg under a 454190 to test: 19, 22, 25, 28 & 31 with a wheat bran filler. An additional GOEX 4fg load of 34.5 gr was slightly compressed by the bullet and required no filler.

Under the same 454190 bullet two "full" loads of 3fg were also tested; one with 35 gr of GOEX Cartridge and one of 34.5 with some old Dupont 3fg "Superfine" BP.

Other load data;
Cases: Winchester W-W
Primers: Winchester WLP
Cartridge OAL: 1.600"
Bullet lube 8/5 beeswax to olive oil.

Velocity: Corrected to muzzle

Test firearm: Contender with TC Factory 10" barrel
PSI/velocity measured with Oehler M43 PBL.
SAAMI MAP for the 45 Colt is 14,000 psi.

The "standard" modern 45 Colt BP load of 35 gr GOEX Cartridge gave a velocity of 852 fps at 13,500 psi.

The 34.5 gr load of Dupont Superfine 3fg gave a velocity of 1005 fps at 13,500 psi.

Note: The lowest pressure reading I have got with this barrel is 11,300 psi. Understanding it takes 7000 psi +/- to expand a FL sized case before it can put pressure on the barrel. Then and additional amount is needed to "strain" the barrel so the strain gauge can measure it.

With the GOEX 4fg loads of 19, 22, 25 & 28 gr there just wasn't enough pressure generated to measure. With the 31 gr load only 30% of the shots generated enough pressure to get a measurement. That simply means all the shots with no psi measurement had less than 11,300 psi.

The 31 gr load of GOEX 4fg that gave a measurement gave a velocity of 969 fps at 12,300 psi.

The 34.5 gr GOEX 4fg load gave a velocity of 1025 fps at 12,100 psi.

Note: The 31 gr load had a wheat bran filler. The 34.5 gr load had no filler.

[Texas by God]

Thanks for your time and effort. Your results are confirming my suspicions. I’ll work up to the mid level and smoke up the hillside!

[Chill Wills]

Thank you for posting your test! This takes a lot of your time to set up and do. It was well worth the short wait on our part.
Facts beat guessing and this is useful to see in print.

[Edward]

Tests beat folklore every time :Fire:

[rfd]

thanx for the good testing, larry. the results were in the ballpark of what i expected, too.

[smithnframe]

I have an extensive collection of Elmer's books/writings and I don't recall him mentioning blowing up any 44 specials!

[Larry Gibson]

Forgot to mention I also pressure tested 19 gr 4fg with bran wheat filler under a 230 gr bullet and a duplication of the 1887 "government 45" which is the Schofield case with a 230 gr bullet over 28 gr of BP (GOEX Cartridge). Neither had sufficient pressure to measure so they were less than 11,300 psi.

[FLINTNFIRE]

Thank you for the test and results and your time , this should put to rest some of the chatter , except with the died in the wool you will put your eye out types . I remember my first time shooting black powder when the so called local expert told me the philidelphia deringer would not burn more then a 380acp case of powder , would hardly make it to the target .

[indian joe]

thanx for the good testing, larry. the results were in the ballpark of what i expected, too.

same here !

[indian joe]

I have an extensive collection of Elmer's books/writings and I don't recall him mentioning blowing up any 44 specials!

Story I read was he blew up a 45 colt using 45/70 pills in it ?

[bigted]

Larry, thanks so much for your time and effort. I am thinking this is a satisfactory argument from a strictly scientific approach ... to put to rest ... leastwise in my mind ... to put this 4Fg bugaboo to rest.

Thank you very much for your published report on numbers discovered.

Can we defray some costs for you?

[Texas by God]

Well, I went ahead and played a bit. I cast some 200 rnfp Lee from Seine net weights and pan lubed them with boot dressing/ paraffin lube. My priming flask throws 23+/- grs of 4F. I hand scattered maltomeal into the cases( unsized, primed and flared) then hand seated the boolits and crimped them in the seating die. It' worth noting that the shorter OAL rounds impacted lower on the target. My filler depth was inconsistent [emoji16].They were fun to shoot with no ear protection needed. Next time I'll just use 100% loading density. They have potential, but I'm filing this knowledge away for a very rainy day! Thanks for the myth busting, Mr Gibson.
I wonder how old the round face primers are? A CCI LP is shown for comparison.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191110/b306d29039aaa8d27c43ce1b59834316.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191110/8fd1f391f5847f261b80fa9dd120f848.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191110/44b1d7be37c525e6bada07c2cf54adad.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191110/691a34f678c2e47a0764655a4490e0f8.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191110/e6c38842bebfd4401c0101e64d61ca24.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191110/c82f849d1aa32f3f2679062d041b384e.jpg

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[bigted]

Nice!!! Betcha that was fun ... sure looks like fun.

[Texas by God]

Nice!!! Betcha that was fun ... sure looks like fun.Thanks! It was, except for the cleaning up part! Which reminds me, l left those washed brass on top of the well house- I'd better get them before the cats scatter them.

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[ELFEGO BACA]

I’ve used maximum charges of FFFFg pushing round balls out of my Ruger Old Army without problems.

[bigted]

I just continue to be amazed about how normally cognizant educated with plenty of experience and common sense folks will continue to be fooled ... and argue to no end ... over old wives tales pertaining to loading and shooting black powder.

Some of these tales have been around for the longest time and come to find out ... absolutely no scientific proof one way or the other. Yet the proponents still dramatically defend and still demand adherence to ... when all the time come to find out ... they could not be any more false.

I have been guilty of just this sorta nonsense myself. I now back up a bit and ask the question ... where is the proof, one way or the other?

I for one will ... in the future ... stop myself from knee jerk remarks ... and think about a couple things ... before continuing the unfounded facts of a subject that I have been "educated" to believe. Embarrassing to say the least.

Many thanks ... again ... to folks that take the time and effort to find actual facts to report ... contrary to popular belief.

At this point ... I am in the midst of finding the "truth" concerning compressed black powder loading ... in a most un-scientific procedures. My "education" has been to use at least .050 to .300 inch compression to obtain accuracy. This fly's in the face of what happens to black powder kernels upon compression. Mainly the crushing that takes place and the certain UN-UN-consistent state this leaves the charge.

[mazo kid]

I'm in agreement with Ted; don't know how many times I have heard (and repeated!) that ffffg powder in cartridge guns was dangerous, created erratic pressures, etc. The same holds true for use in muzzle loading guns.

[Ozark mike]

Figure i would preform CPR on a dead thread an ask what other wepons yall like to load warm with black powder. I like fffg in the 45-70s ffffg in 45 44mag 44c&b. Dont know how a 44wcf would do with finer powder since it has a slight bottle neck

[sharps4590]

Texas, I believe those primers are from the 60's and maybe early 70's. I used up the last of mine about a year ago. Zero FTF.

[Texas by God]

Two years later, I found two of the Sharpie-marked FFFFG 44-40s on the shelf. I fired them at 20 yards and they still worked fine. I had to clean my .54 pistol anyway- I may play with the 4F in it.[emoji848]

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