another Electrical question.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

What do you think an extra line will cost?

Yesterday, the Electric co-op finally bored/buried my new power line...that was supposed to be done 2 years ago, when most of my neighbors had their's buried/trenched during the street/utility re-construction. I got them to pull an extra line for power to my garage (see paragraph below)... the extra line was pulled with the new service line and my cable TV line...both ends of the extra line are currently unconnected and just coiled up on the ground, I'll connect them next spring (or have a electrician connect the one end to a meter box, if possible?there is three meter boxes strung together and the runs going out of them). I wonder what that extra line will cost? (material cost) They used about 125 feet of cable. They used 2/2 since I plan on putting in a 60 amp box.

The new service pedestal is next to my garage, but the meter is on my house 80 feet away. I buried a line 25 years ago from the house fuse box to the garage, and while it's has worked, I wasn't done correctly and was probably undersized, since I do a little bit of welding...I've blown fuses when the Air compressor kicks in while I am welding. I plan to make the connections in the spring, as I should first, re-organize the garage and change much of the existing wiring, because the new breaker box will be in a new location...and I want to change most of the Lighting.

Thanks for any comments you might have.

[georgerkahn]

I'm a tad confused re "2/2"? If they buried 12-2 UFB NMC, it runs (big box prices) around $100.00 per 150 feet. If YOU bought it. Remember, the diner pays 16 cents for the eggs that sell at $3.50 each ;). The other "2/2" possibility is two-ought -- 2/0 direct burial underground feeder, which runs (here) about $2.40 per foot.
IF your wish is to supply your garage with 110V, maximum ampacity of sixty amperes, most folks simply put a sixty-amp breaker in their main entrance box, and then run the 12-2 to a secondary box in garage. Dependent upon your state's electrical code, the "grounding" varies -- should be checked out -- but, from said secondary box you can distribute your power wants. Around here, most folks run three 20-amp breakers -- one for lighting, a second for a run of fdr's (female duplex receptacles -- aka "outlets"), and a third for but one heavy duty device. Some will have a fourth breaker for an electrically operated garage door opener.
Kind of hard for me to help -- albeit I've tried :) -- and best wishes!
geo

[Mal Paso]

2/2 I'm thinking the second 2 is the neutral as reduced size neutrals used to be allowed. I've never used direct burial cable that big, always used conduit. 2 ga copper will do a 100 amp service if there aren't other limiting conditions. If it's aluminum they went a size larger to compensate.

#2 Aluminum UF is good for 65 Amps. 60 Amps at 125' through #2 Aluminum has a 2.32% voltage drop. Ugly's and Southwire's app were the source.

[rancher1913]

should read 2 strands of number 2 wire I believe, should have a third wire that is a little smaller for the nuetral unless all you are getting is 110 in your shop and not 220.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I need 240v in the garage, my welder is 240v.
I should have looked at the label on the Spool when they pulled it.
During our conversation, he said it was 2/2 (it is not 00/2)
Now there is three conductors, two with black insulation and one with Yellow insulation.
I didn't examine the actual conductor in each, but I can say the OD of the yellow insulation is smaller than the black ones.

The cable I installed 25 years ago was 10-3 UF, which I have going into two different salvaged disconnect boxes...each rated for 30 amps.

[georgerkahn]

The yellow wire is your neutral, with the blacks to be your 110 volt lines. What comes from the power company transformer, generally atop a nearby pole, is center-tapped 240 volts -- three wires. Hence, when in your house/garage, from black wire to black wire is 240 volts -- with the center tap -- again, the neutral -- having 120 volts from it, to each of the black wires. You did not indicate if the wires are aluminum or copper. Most SE (service entrance) cable nowadays is aluminum; it's rating is generally similar to one-size-bigger if copper. Here's a chart showing capacity:249877 Generally, the number referred to is the current carrying conductors (black), and the NEC allows the neutral (yellow) to be a size smaller. A factor to be considered, too, is distance/length of cable as this is important -- with #2 size carrying wire, you should run your welder OK. There should be a label on the welder with both its duty cycle and amperage -- you need reference that for fusing.
geo

[Lloyd Smale]

we used 4/0 with a 2/0 neutral and 2/0 with a #2 neutral for urd installations. 4/0 for anything over a 100 amp service. 2/0 for a 100 amp. We used very little of the 2/0 because about any new installation anymore is at least 200 amp. We did have a #2 with a #4 neutral too but it was two wire only used on street lights.

[Lloyd Smale]

we used 4/0 with a 2/0 neutral and 2/0 with a #2 neutral for urd installations. 4/0 for anything over a 100 amp service. 2/0 for a 100 amp. We used very little of the 2/0 because about any new installation anymore is at least 200 amp. We did have a #2 with a #4 neutral too but it was two wire only used on street lights. install price is about impossible to guess. First we don't really know what wire was used. When you said pulled do you mean through conduit? Did you bury the conduit? Dig the trench? Or is it plowed in. I retired 10 years ago but not to scare you but ive never seen a bill for an install that wasn't at least a grand.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Lloyd,
Thanks for the info, I may have asked my question in a confusing way...I am curious of material cost, because it wasn't discussed and I suspect the two fellows operating the horizontal boring machine probably don't know the material cost, So I didn't ask them. 125' of aluminum 2/2.

They bored in my new service line, which was done as part of the project's cost, because of neighborhood upgrades, removing all utility poles and burying all the utilities...a project the City started two years ago.
ANYWAY, when they bored the new service line, I asked if they could pull an additional line (for a 60 amp box in my garage)...which they left unconnected...leaving me to finish the digging and making those connections to my garage. I don't believe I will be charged for any labor or boring costs.
If I am, I will suspect it will be quite high, as you suggest. Right now, I am just curious about the cost of the Cable, Aluminum 2/2 about 125'

[lylejb]

Home depot has 2-2-4 aluminium cable for $1.15 a foot. Hope this helps.

[jimlj]

It sounds like you have 2/2/4 URD to the garage. (two number 2 and one number 4 aluminum twisted together) 5 years ago I sold thousands of feet for about $1 per foot. URD is rated for direct burial, and works great in sandy soil. It will make you hate life in a few years if its rocky.

[SSGOldfart]

Most service feeds are covered by the co-op from pole to weather head,in your case it 's a underground feed from transformer to meter base. The only cost should be the cost of a second service.

[calm seas]

JonB, I had underground service run this spring in Alaska. Local co-op hit me for almost $5000 to run 54 ft of underground to a stub pole - after I had cleared a path 15 feet wide of all brush, trees, and roots. Electrician hit me for about $2000 to provide stub pole, meter panel, disconnect box on house, and do the tie-in. I buried the 183 ft of 4/0 4/0 2/0 AL in 3 in. conduit from the stub to the house myself, for just under $600. YMWV

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

It sounds like you have 2/2/4 URD to the garage. (two number 2 and one number 4 aluminum twisted together) 5 years ago I sold thousands of feet for about $1 per foot. URD is rated for direct burial, and works great in sandy soil. It will make you hate life in a few years if its rocky.
I am hoping this is the case...I can handle $1 or so, per ft.



JonB, I had underground service run this spring in Alaska. Local co-op hit me for almost $5000 to run 54 ft of underground to a stub pole - after I had cleared a path 15 feet wide of all brush, trees, and roots. Electrician hit me for about $2000 to provide stub pole, meter panel, disconnect box on house, and do the tie-in. I buried the 183 ft of 4/0 4/0 2/0 AL in 3 in. conduit from the stub to the house myself, for just under $600. YMWV
WOWSERS !
:holysheep:holysheep:holysheep

[Lloyd Smale]

company I worked for would let you dig your own trench too. But they still charged the same if they or you dug the trench. Believe it or not some still did it themselves. When I first started there in the 80s if you were a new customer you got a one pole primary extension and up to a 300 foot service free. Rate increases had the existing customers crying about it (even though most of them got that deal) because they said they were paying for someone elses service. Public service commission addressed it and now you pay for every nut and bolt and foot of wire. You probably would have been better off to hire the electrician who was going to hook it up to provide the wire and bury it.

[smoked turkey]

JonB here is my $.02 worth based on what I would do. In fact it is what I did do 45 years ago at my home here. I would avoid a second service point to the shop with a second electric meter. Main reason is to avoid a second utility electric bill. The way most utility bills are calculated involves a step rate charge consisting of a demand charge (this could be considered a minimum bill which is no longer chicken feed dollar wise), and an energy charge for the number of kwh used. This used to be a step rate but some utilities have gone away from that. In other words the more kwh consumed the cost per kwh goes down. By getting one utility bill you reach the lower stepped rate sooner and pay less in the long run for the same number of kwh consumed. The way most garages or separate out buildings are electrified is a sub-feed from the main house electric panel such as you now have with your 10-3 underground cable. As you have found the 10-3 is way too small for what you want to do. I would run my own 2-#2 aluminum cable & 1#2 aluminum yellow neutral wire in conduit sub-fed from my house panel and put in a 60 amp two-pole breaker in the main electric panel in the house ahead of it. You should be able to put the 2 pole 60 amp breaker in the same slot the existing 2 pole 30 amp breaker now occupies. I personally would put in a 100 amp sub panel in the garage so you have room for lots of breakers to your various pieces of shop equipment. You could also put in a 60 amp panel but won't have as many slots for breakers as with the 100 amp panel. Your 100 amp panel is ofcourse larger than your #2 aluminum feed line but it is protected by the 60 amp breaker so no worries about overload. This is getting too long so I will stop with this. Just my .02.

[Lloyd Smale]

that's good advice Jon. Most places allow you to do your own service if its a sub panel and you don't even need an electrician to do it. Our company has a minimum meter charge of 30 bucks even if you use no power. Most people are capable of wiring a sub panel and running conductor to a garage into a 1oo amp fused disconnect panel. I wouldn't fool with a 60 because the cost isn't that much more. Electrical inspector around here wont even allow a 60 amp pannel. 100 is minimum. If not id about bet one of your buddys could come and coach you. Around here if its an existing structure that already had power at on time you don't even need to pull a permit. Just have the power company come one day and open your fuse or pull the meter, do your work and have them come turn it back on.

[lightman]

I can't help with the pricing, sorry. Utility companies have their own price schedule, usually set by that states Public Service Commission and they vary from company to company. The company that I retired from had to price their underground by deducting the cost of the same distance that an overhead service would cost.

But back to your wiring. If the new wire is hitting the building at a different location I would consider installing a new breaker panel at that location. Then you can work on it as time and finances allow.

Utility companies are allowed to run a reduced size neutral where the NEC won't allow it for homeowners or electricians. They are governed by different codes. That 2-2 size is kind of confusing. Its not a usual way to state a cable size. At least around here. Our company used 2 4/0 wires with a 2/0 neutral or 2 1/0 wires with a #2 neutral for their underground service size.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I guess I should have asked about this, before the cable was buried, instead of after :(
There are a few extenuating circumstances that were poorly worded by myself and/or left out.
First, the existing box in the house is a 60 amp fuse box, actually there are two of them, as this house was a duplex. Everything existing is so old, I suspect none of it is up to code. If I started updating, the whole project will go in reverse and become a total rewire job.

So anyway, at this point, I will just have to wait and see what I get charged for the 2/2 that is buried. I will also have to wait until next spring (I didn't have plans to do this any sooner), to see if my Electrician can connect the cable to one of the existing meter boxes (there are three)...downstream side, not the line side (the utility guys think that'll be ok). There was never any talk about connecting it to the line side and the requirement of a second meter (second service point)...but that will surely be a question I will ask them.

Back to the three meter boxes (only one has a meter), there are three lines going out...one to each 60 amp box and one to the Hot water heater disconnect (fused) box. So a worry I have, is if the electrician can add wires to connections that already have wires in them...my plan was to connect the 2/2 into the terminals that have the hot water heater lines connected.

[Mal Paso]

Thanks Lightman, I've only worked your side of the meter a couple times. I reread the original post and it sounds like the 2/2/4 is on the wrong side of the meter to be strictly legal. The OP's big loads are 240v so the neutral won't be over loaded. Electrons don't care, just don't call for inspection.

[woodbutcher]

:) Hi JonB.Just be sure to seal that TV cable very well,as moisture will migrate very deep into it in short order.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[jonp]

I'm thinking to doing the same as the OP but would like to clarify something on the sub-box not the line size. I had my line to the house removed from Pole to House and buried to the house and changed from a 100amp service with the box inside to 200amp with the main box on the outside and the house inside a sub. I did this with an eye towards putting a 100amp sub in the garage where the line to it now is a 15amp off the inside house. Ok for now as I don't do much but run a few power tools but I'd like a 220 for a welder or large compressor.

Question is: How many amps would I need for the single 220v outlet to use the small welder? Would 30amp be enough and if so, since a single 15amp line works fine for me now would a 60amp sub do the trick? This would leave 40amps extra on the outside 200amp box. I was thinking of using that for 2 20amp breakers to hook up a generator for power if it went out and run the inside freezers and fridge off of that. The electrician that put on the box said it was an easy setup with an automatic switch that when power was restored it would instantly flip over pulling the running generator off the box.

I hope I was clear in this and didn't hijack it too much. It seems JonB and myself are looking at the same thing

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I realize you don't have the welder yet? But the specs to the welder you don't have yet, is the answer to your question.
BTW, my inexpensive HF 240v MIG/Fluxcore wirefeed welder has a 20 amp rating for "line in" (the output is similar to the current one HF sells, 170 amps DC).

[jonp]

No welder yet and I'm not setting up a welding shop. Just buying a small one for my own use. Most of the ones I'm seeing say 30Amps

[Mal Paso]

Go bigger on wire size than what the welder says. Especially buzz box stick welders like the 225 Lincoln's.