Colt Lightning 44/40

[salvadore]

Right, not a levergun but didn't know where to post that was better. Anyway, I have lyman design round nose that casts around 200gr. 2 lube grooves no crimp kinda like the 42798. Barrel looks good enough for a cast bullet. Suspect the action isn't much stronger than thw Winchester '73. Would like the load that gives me max velocity and 11,000-13,000 cup. I'm aware of the titegroup load and have lost interest in trail boss. Any suggestions would be welcome. I think Colt revolver bores were .427+or-. Anyone have some idea before I start slugging?

[Outpost75]

I have found that all .44-40 rifles and revolvers shoot well with a soft 1 to 30 tin-lead alloy 200-208 grain bullet of .430" diameter and 6 grains of Bullseye or TiteGroup, or 6.5 grains of WST, Red Dot or 452AA. Velocity and pressure approximates factory loads. With smokeless powder I prefer a bullet with a crimp groove to avoid having to damage the bullet trying to crimp over the ogive, and to positively prevent bullets from telescoping into the case from compression of the magazine spring.

My favorite is 43-206H from Accurate.
You can also order this moild to cast a plain base if you don't care for the bevel.

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[Walks]

The HODGDON Cowboy Reloading Handout Jan 2003 shows 5.0 - 6.2grs of TiteGroup in the .44-40 with a 200gr bullet.

What Outpost 75 said.

[Savvy Jack]

Right, not a levergun but didn't know where to post that was better. Anyway, I have lyman design round nose that casts around 200gr. 2 lube grooves no crimp kinda like the 42798. Barrel looks good enough for a cast bullet. Suspect the action isn't much stronger than thw Winchester '73. Would like the load that gives me max velocity and 11,000-13,000 cup. I'm aware of the titegroup load and have lost interest in trail boss. Any suggestions would be welcome. I think Colt revolver bores were .427+or-. Anyone have some idea before I start slugging?

The Colt Lightning is considered a Group 1 "weak action" rifle like the Winchester 73' according to Lyman's 49th Edition reloading manual.

Always good to slug anyway. Many older rifles are reported to slug anywhere from as small as .424 to as high as .432.

Lyman lists the following for "Group 1" max loads and also lists a 19" Navy Arms Winchester 73' as the test rifle used;

cast .429 #2 Alloy

The highest velocity loads listed are;

Lyman 200gr #427666
17gr IMR-4227 @ 1,310fps 11,600cup

Speer 200gr #4425 JHP
18.5gr IMR-4227 @ 1,212fps 12,600cup

Lyman 200gr #427098
8gr Green Dot @ 1,194fps 12,900cup

SAAMI MAX LOADS: Pages 21 & 33
https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/ANSI-SAAMI-Z299.4-CFR-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

11,000psi/13,000cup


My personal load data for .429 barrels.

CCI-300 primers and Starline brass

ACME .429 hard cast "Magma" design such as Oregon Trail's Laser Cast "Cowboy"
25gr Reloder 7 @ 1,348fps and 10,000psi
26gr Reloder 7 @ 1,433fps and 11,500psi (Max 11,000psi)
27gr Reloder 7 @ 1,568fps and 13,602psi (Max 11,000psi)

Size does matter...
30gr Reloder 7 with a 200gr Winchester .4255" JSP, 1,400fps @ 11,300psi (warning- Although psi is in range, the burning rate, heat and other unknowns may be somewhat unstable with this load...maybe, maybe not)

[Savvy Jack]

Here is one of the last targets I shot two months ago, 8-17-2019

This load is used in my Uberti 73' (scoped), but of course is more than likely a little stronger than an original or a Colt...maybe, maybe not!

I did not pressure test this bullet but is basically the same design as the 43-215C and Lyman 427098.

43-214A, 220gr 25.8gr Reloder 7, CCI-300 primers, starline brass
an estimated 11,000psi, 1,354fps from the first ten shots of a 40 shot group @ 100 yards
Temp - 80deg humid, 8am

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[salvadore]

Thanks gang, the info included loads I haven't found. I planned on slugging the bore before getting mold and sizing die. The rifle has a nice barrel for a bp shooter and has been to Great Britain at some point in its life. This was a spur of the moment purchase and am not a Colt Lightning expert beyond what I learned on the net. I found an exploded view but cant figure how it locks up. Once again thanks and any other info would be appreciated.

[DaveM]

In my Cimarron Firearms 1873 Sporting Rifle with 24" barrel, I get an average 1329 FPS when shooting a bullet cast from an Accurate 43-215C (John Kort's design) on top of 2.2cc (35 grains) of Swiss 3Fg black powder in Starline brass with Federal #150 primers. SD was only 11 FPS. The bullet is cast from 1:20 and average weight is 219 grains.

Accuracy with this load is very good at 50 yards, under 2" from the bench. That's as good as I can shoot with irons.

[jgt]

I would strongly suggest you refrain from using round nose bullets in this rifle. In rifles with tube type magazines there is always a chance of a chain fire with round nose bullets. In the spirit of safety, I would encourage you to look for a mold that casts a flat nose bullet. Maybe call LBT molds and see what is available in a bullet mold that drops a 200 to 220 grain LFN bullet.

[Outpost75]

^^^^THIS!^^^^

Especially because .44-40 is normally loaded with PISTOL primers, you want to use a flat-nosed bullet having a meplat of not ness than half of bullet diameter, or approximately the full diameter of the primer or greater.

[9.3X62AL]

SAECO #446 has become my "Go-to" bullet in 44/40 WCF. Nice crimp groove, sufficient lube capacity for smokeless loadings, and enough finished size to fit most throats. In 30/1 alloy, my mould drops them at a few tenths under .431". I size them at .431", which doesn't fully 'clean up' the drive bands but establishes lube where it needs to be. The throat on my 1897-made Win '73 carbine is .429", my 2012-model Uberti Cattleman throats will pass a .428" pin gauge but not a .429".

I use 25.0 grains of Reloder 7 per the late John Kort's recommendations. It gives better accuracy and smaller SDs than 2400, 4227, or Unique did. 1200 FPS +/- in the 19" carbine, 850-875 FPS in the 4-3/4" Uberti. Starline brass, CCI 300 primers. There are a few powder granule "zombies" in the revolver barrel after firing, the carbine barrel is a little gritty afterward.

If it ever suits you to try black powder in your 44/40 WCF, DO NOT DO what I did--use shallow-grooved Lee 200 grain bullets with SPG and Goex (Flaming Dirt) 3F powder. This combo fouled out by carbine's barrel within 6 rounds. Get one of Dick Dastardly's Big Lube bullet moulds, and use a better-grade powder like KIK or Swiss. CCI 350 primers, too. I would have to become very jaded and bored to try that sort of entertainment again.

[salvadore]

I bow to folks that have actually loaded the 44/40 for rifles that are 130+ years old. I kind of remember purchasing round nose cartridges for a 94 30/30 back in the late sixties, but I do plan on using pistol primers. The bore appears to slug out to .430 +. My load research is confusing since many of the suggestions are for shooters that weren't made into the smokeless era for smokeless loads then warn not to use anything but BP. I will use the rn bullet because it's the right weight and I already have it, planned on two in the mag before operating the action etc. Btw the bullet is a modern version of the Anderton bullet and since I plan on maxing out at two in the magazine don't expect any set back. Anyway, thanks for the help and wish me luck.

[Savvy Jack]

My load research is confusing since many of the suggestions are for shooters that weren't made into the smokeless era for smokeless loads then warn not to use anything but BP.

For the 44-40, not using smokeless powders in older black powder firearms is a myth. During the advent of smokeless, Winchester's new smokeless powder cartridges were warned not to be used in pistols was made specifically for the Winchester Model of 73, and Model of 92'. Winchester, more than likely, did not want the responsibility of people using their new smokeless loads in revolvers they knew nothing about at that time. Obviously a testing issue I guess. It was a short time later that the warning was removed as smokeless powders were improved.

When Bulleseye and Unique were introduced, it was soon preferred and used in the 44-40 for revolvers with no warnings not to be used in black powder firearms. This doesn't mean a steady dose of the higher pressure spiking powder was good for the old farts.....but it certianly would not make them go "Kaboom" in their sleep. Therefore Rifles and Revolvers could be loaded with the different powders.

For handloaders, two different powders were offered for the 44-40....PISTOL POWDERS and RIFLE POWDERS.

Winchester currently loads their factory ammunition "safe" for every firearm out there chambered for the 44-40 as long as the weapon is not a piece of junk. Buffalo Bore manufactures a much higher velocity load for the 44-40 that they claim is also safe for any weapon chambered for the 44-40 BUT goes one step further to warn against using their ammunition in older weapons with smaller bores [than .427].

The 44-40 started life as a Rifle Cartridge and still is a Rifle Cartridge that uses both rifle and pistol powders.


Again historic powders for the 44-40 are:


Black Powder

This is an area I have yet to explore in detail. I'd like to just start off with Winchester's 1895 Catalog #55 and then update later.
After the Civil War manufactures started using the F system to designate black powder granular.


​From Winchester's August 1895 catalog

​"For the 32, 38, and 44 WCF rifles and ALL center-fire pistol cartridges:

​American Powder Mills' "Rifle Cartridge, No. 4"
Hazard Powder Company's "Kentucky Rifle F.F.G."
E. I. DuPont. de Nemours & Co.'s "Dupont Rifles F.F.G."
Laflin & Rand Powder Co.'s "Orange Rifle Extra, F.F.G."



​For powder to be used in rifle cartridges containing more than 40 grains, we recommend the following brands and sizes of grains as giving the best results:

​American Powder Mills' "Rifle Cartridge, No. 3"
Hazard Powder Company's "Kentucky Rifle F.G."
E.I. DuPont. de Nemours & Co.'s "Dupont Rifles F.G."
Laflin & Rand Powder Co.'s "Orange Rifle Extra, F.G.""



Smokeless Powders used in the early smokeless days https://sites.google.com/view/44winchestercartridges/powders

Laflin & Rand - "Sporting Powder for Rifles and Revolvers" (Bulk Powder)
Dupont - "Smokeless Rifle #2" (Bulk for Bulk powder)
Laflin & Rand "Sharpeshooter" for black powder rifles (Bulk Powder)
Hurcules "Bulleseye" for revolvers only!!
Dupont "Sporting Rifle #80" (SR80)
Dupont "No. 1204" (IMR1204)
Hurcules "Unique" for rifles and revolvers!!

IMR-4227...was a direct replacement for IMR-1204

4227 is IMR's magnum powder like 2400 is a magnum powder......simply a rifle powder that performs well in magnum calibers which ironically include some black powder capacity cartridges.


Back to your Colt "Lightning" rifle......if it is in good sound shape and has the larger bore as you described, there is absolutely no reason smokeless powder can not be used with modern 200gr to 220gr 44 Special and 44 Magnum DIAMETER bullets. However, keep in mind that it should be considered a "weak action" and is included in Lyman's Weak Action "Group I" rifle category.

[Savvy Jack]

Here is some more information worthy of reading

https://sites.google.com/view/44winchestercartridges/powders/report-of-the-chief-of-ordinance

note page 27

[shrapnel]

I have a bunch of 44-40 and 38-40 rifles in Marlin, Whitney Kennedy, Winchester, Burgess and Colt lightning as well as Colt Burgess and I have shot them all with Trail Boss and Unique powder and killed everything I shot at with them. 10's of thousands of rounds through these original guns with smokeless powder...

http://i.imgur.com/vBdmhQY.jpg (https://imgur.com/vBdmhQY)

http://i.imgur.com/KpW75hq.jpg (https://imgur.com/KpW75hq)

http://i.imgur.com/1qjNY0h.jpg (https://imgur.com/1qjNY0h)

http://i.imgur.com/PFwtOS3.jpg (https://imgur.com/PFwtOS3)

http://i.imgur.com/EDo37OM.jpg (https://imgur.com/EDo37OM)

[Outpost75]

Absolutely SPLENDID collection!

If you have a favorite bullet and load combination which shoots well in most or all of the rifles, which would be your "Go To" to check out a new find, what would you recommend?

I'd love to have specifics on what you have found works, bullet, alloy, lube, etc. I am presuming you have settled on good, ordinary, conventional loads which are carefully assembled and well executed, without VooDoo or wierd science. Having a well-proven "recipe" which simply works is a great thing.

Inquiring minds would like to know. I expect that few of us here would be surprised, but the validation of basics using such a wonderful cross-section of vintage rifles would be both affirming and educational.

[salvadore]

Thank you mr. Shrapnel for first hand info on the colt lightning. Not to diminish all other posts.

[Maven]

Yes, a splendid collection, Shrapnel! And nice to see you posting again and give my regards to Mike V.

[bob208]

I use the rcbs 200 gr flatpoint in my .44-40 's a 73 Winchester a 92 carbine a uberti 66 repro. and a Dakota pistol.

[salvadore]

One more time, thanks for the excellent help. I mentioned in one of my posts that the shooter had been to GB as indicated by the proof marks. My surmise is that it was a lend lease item. Has anyone else noticed british proof marks on their original guns? Particularly mr. Shrapnel and his extended collection. I realize it may have been imported for sale to a brit civilian before they went crazy.

[shrapnel]

Absolutely SPLENDID collection!

If you have a favorite bullet and load combination which shoots well in most or all of the rifles, which would be your "Go To" to check out a new find, what would you recommend?

I'd love to have specifics on what you have found works, bullet, alloy, lube, etc. I am presuming you have settled on good, ordinary, conventional loads which are carefully assembled and well executed, without VooDoo or wierd science. Having a well-proven "recipe" which simply works is a great thing.

Inquiring minds would like to know. I expect that few of us here would be surprised, but the validation of basics using such a wonderful cross-section of vintage rifles would be both affirming and educational.

I have found that the pistol cartridge calibers are quite forgiving and don't require the attention that most cast rifle bullets need. I have been buying whatever brand of cast bullets I can find for the 44-40 and 38-40 in 200 and 180 grain bullets respectively. I get the typical flat point bullets and buy them by the 1000's. I use Trail Boss powder in the 38-40 and Unique powder in the 44-40. No reason to use 2 different powders, but I have a lot of both. I have also noticed that even though I use only one load for each cartridge, all the guns seem to be accurate to MOR "minute of rabbit"...

http://i.imgur.com/HJlrkHN.jpg (https://imgur.com/HJlrkHN)

http://i.imgur.com/5s3YwAp.jpg (https://imgur.com/5s3YwAp)

http://i.imgur.com/Kc1mwy4.jpg (https://imgur.com/Kc1mwy4)

http://i.imgur.com/cuSsKEq.jpg (https://imgur.com/cuSsKEq)

http://i.imgur.com/89Cb7Dk.jpg (https://imgur.com/89Cb7Dk)

[Outpost75]

Thank you for the reply and pics. It is much as I thought.

As FYI I've standardized on 6 grains of Bullseye in my 1905 Colt Frontier Six Shooter and 1920 New Service, with Accurate 43-206H. Also feeds well and is suitably accurate in my Spanish El Tigre levergun. All of the above completely ordinary and not as pretty as yours, but they get the daily duty around the farm.

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[mule1]

Beautiful collection

[Savvy Jack]

Absolutely awesome collection!!

I refuse to call the 44-40 a "pistol" cartridge. It never was and never will be. Just because some old fart classifies it as such doesn't make it one.

Back in the 30's it was refered to as a mild rifle cartridge....and that is acceptable. :grin:

[salvadore]

I now have dies and brass and the afore mentioned mold but haven't had time to put anything together. The weather has been great here so I took a few rifles to the range including the Lightning and a box of black hills cartridges. The ladder sight sight picture is a challenge and the ladder part tends to slide too easily but once I got the sights lined up I managed a 1.5" 50yd group with the popgun black hills load. The tang appears to have a factory tapped hole for a tang sight. May explore that option. Thanks again for all the input.

[leadeye]

Beautiful collection!

[bigwagon]

The Colt Lightning is considered a Group 1 "weak action" rifle like the Winchester 73' according to Lyman's 49th Edition reloading manual.

Always good to slug anyway. Many older rifles are reported to slug anywhere from as small as .424 to as high as .432.


Resurrecting this thread to add a data point from my 1885 Lightning rifle. I recently started shooting it again after approx. a 100 year hiatus, using black powder and bullet cast from an old Ideal tool. The sizing ring in the tool sizes to about .425, and they drop out of the mold at about .427. When I shot these bullets in my rifle, the accuracy at 50 yards was not impressive, so I decided to slug the barrel. It measures about .430-.432! No wonder. It's like throwing a hot dog down a hallway. I will try it again with some .429s, which is the best I can do right now unless I get a mold that drops larger.

[Savvy Jack]

Resurrecting this thread to add a data point from my 1885 Lightning rifle. I recently started shooting it again after approx. a 100 year hiatus, using black powder and bullet cast from an old Ideal tool. The sizing ring in the tool sizes to about .425, and they drop out of the mold at about .427. When I shot these bullets in my rifle, the accuracy at 50 yards was not impressive, so I decided to slug the barrel. It measures about .430-.432! No wonder. It's like throwing a hot dog down a hallway. I will try it again with some .429s, which is the best I can do right now unless I get a mold that drops larger.

See if you can cast some softer bullets with the .429's, they should expand inside the larger bore to improve accuracy with a full charge of black.

[bigwagon]

I think I'm going to order a mold from Accurate. The Jack Korts BP 44-40 mold looks like a good one for this and my Colt SAA FSS.

[Savvy Jack]

I think I'm going to order a mold from Accurate. The Jack Korts BP 44-40 mold looks like a good one for this and my Colt SAA FSS.

Hard to go wrong with the 43-215C. Excellent lube groove for black powder along with the tried and true profile for accurate long distance shots!

[Randy Bohannon]

43-215C has been a stellar performer out to 200 yds. In two different Win/Miroku 73’s for me

[salvadore]

I noticed Jack is in Hickory. Quite a few years ago I lived in metropolitan Linville and went to a school off the mountain in Marion. IT's really green.

[Savvy Jack]

I noticed Jack is in Hickory. Quite a few years ago I lived in metropolitan Linville and went to a school off the mountain in Marion. IT's really green.

Yes it is, view from my office! Very different from the green in south Georgia where I lived most of my life!!!
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[cowboy4evr]

Recently I found a Colt New Service revolver in 44-40 . I almost bought it when I stopped and requested his gunsmith check the dimensions of the cylinder throats and groove diameter of the barrel . The cylinder throats measured .427 , great ! The groove diameter of the barrel was .433-.434 . I passed on buying it . I just don't see anyway to get accuracy unless you have a sleeve put in the barrel to bring it back to correct size . Regards Paul

[Savvy Jack]

Recently I found a Colt New Service revolver in 44-40 . I almost bought it when I stopped and requested his gunsmith check the dimensions of the cylinder throats and groove diameter of the barrel . The cylinder throats measured .427 , great ! The groove diameter of the barrel was .433-.434 . I passed on buying it . I just don't see anyway to get accuracy unless you have a sleeve put in the barrel to bring it back to correct size . Regards Paul

Use would be limited but the least I would have done (not that I would have purchased it) would have been be to ream the cylinder to fit .428" cast bullets in Starline brass. The soft lead followed by a full charge of pistol powder like Unique or Bullseye will swell the bullets enough to fill the .433" bore. Just depends on how much one wants to dedicate.

[Outpost75]

Recently I found a Colt New Service revolver in 44-40 . I almost bought it when I stopped and requested his gunsmith check the dimensions of the cylinder throats and groove diameter of the barrel . The cylinder throats measured .427 , great ! The groove diameter of the barrel was .433-.434 . I passed on buying it . I just don't see anyway to get accuracy unless you have a sleeve put in the barrel to bring it back to correct size . Regards Paul

It is VERY easy to have DougGuy hone the cylinder throats to match your barrel.

But if the barrel is as large as .433 groove, you should cast the chambers as well, because it may be necessary to also rechamber the cylinder to provide adequate neck release clearance for the larger bullet. John Taylor did this for me on a Ruger Vaquero which had cylinder throats smaller than the barrel groove, and tight chamber necks so that I could not load bullets large enough to fit. He reamed chamber necks from .444 to .447 and cylinder throats to .4305" and .430" bullets shoot like a rifle in the .429 barrel. Similar job would be MUCH easier and less expensive than trying to find an original New Service barrel of smaller dimensions and having it fitted.

[salvadore]

That's just the opposite of a gen 3 SAA, .434+ throats and .427 barrel.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

My Lightning is a Pedersoli replica in 44/40 probably the last to ship from the factory before they dropped the chambering. I've had it over 5 years now and the action is well, "like lightning", never had a fail to feed nor extract.

https://i.imgur.com/Uqbe3sJ.jpg

[bigwagon]

That's the rare lever action Colt Lightning!

[Chill Wills]

That's the rare lever action Colt Lightning!

!!!!!! - That is what I was thinking too! The rare 1886 Colt Lightning.

[veeman]

Beautiful wood and CCH on that 86 Lightning, never seen the like!

[shrapnel]

My Lightning is a Pedersoli replica in 44/40 probably the last to ship from the factory before they dropped the chambering. I've had it over 5 years now and the action is well, "like lightning", never had a fail to feed nor extract.

https://i.imgur.com/Uqbe3sJ.jpg

You may want to show us how a 44-40 works in an 1886 action. Your lightning is a bit hard to see how it would actually work...