Adam604
11-05-2008, 03:37 PM
Hi Folks,
Adam604
I've been doing a bit more research and reloading of 12 gauge slugs:
I've performed a few test loads of a mild load of:
Federal Hull
22.9 grains Unique (2.5cc LEE Scoop)
Federal 12S3 wad (pink)
Hard wad (custom made * see below)
1.3 cc COW ( LEE Scoop)
Lee 7/8 oz Key Drive Slug (~370 grains)
Loaded in a Lee Load ALL 1 press
What I was testing was the performance of different primers on grouping and recoil
The day was pretty wet, raining pretty hard on and off while shooting a bit windy too. All shots were at 50 yards.
I used :
CCI Large Pistol Primer
Popped out primer from a used 209 primer cup and pressed in pistol primer on top of a drilled out shotgun primer to provide a base. I modified a .45 hull to use as 209 style primer holder, to remove and press in primers (I then use a .45 shell holder in my press) and it worked out great.
3 shots
Results: Very slow to light off shell, almost as if I was shooting a flintlock, I could hear the primer go off then a definite pause before the shell fired. Very light recoil, impacted 4 inches low. Horizontal grouping very tight 1/2 inch. Spread Left / Right 6 1/2 inches, mostly because of hold I think.
Remington KleanBore Muzzle Loading Primer
5 shots
Results: Light recoil, impacted at point of aim. Horizontal grouping very tight 1/2 inch. Spread Left / Right 3 1/2 inches, mostly because of hold I think. A couple of fliers, I flinched and was having trouble with my rear sandbag slipping
Winchester W209 Primer:
8 shots
Results: Light recoil, lighter than the Federal 209 primers , impacted 1 1/2 inches above point of aim. Horizontal grouping 2 1/2 inch. Spread Left / Right 3 1/2 inches.
Overall conclusion, lower power primers do seem to provide a more uniform horizontal pattern, which would seem to indicate a more uniform pressure...
The photos,
In the picture with the 3 targets the first one labeled PP is pistol primer.. the labels on the other two should be switched..
Notice I changed the header on two of the pictures.. Shot wrong target.
In the picture with all of the "stuff" you can see my "hard wad" cutter and material 3/4 inch pipe sharpened and heat treated, material, cheap 1/8 inch paneling
I'm going to do more testing with the Muzzle loading primers and let you guys know how it goes.
I'm using a Mossberg 500 with cylinder bore barrel with a Browning Rifled screw in choke.
Shamelessly stolen from the internet....
The one thing that 209 primers do well is ignite shotshells. They do this well because the amount of primer material is relatively large, and relatively surefire with a light firing pin strike. The one thing that shotgun shooters demand is sureness of ignition. They do not need accuracy, as they depend on a pattern of shot to harvest their game or break their clay. Thus, the amount and temperature of flame in a shotshell can be far in excess of that in a rifle or pistol cartridge. This situation has resulted in several problems in muzzleloaders, the worst of which is ‘over-ignition’, a term that describes too much flame and pressure for accuracy or safety.
Rifle shooters long ago noted that the most accurate loads were those that ignited progressively, from the back end. Pressures are lower, burning rates are more consistent, bullet jump is avoided and accuracy is enhanced with lower power primers. I well remember loading 308 Winchester target loads with special cases made for small rifle primers, just to enhance accuracy. Target primers are always loaded with less priming material than hunting loads.
Bullet jump is probably the bigger bugaboo with 209's in muzzleloaders. The common brand 209's are so powerful that they will throw a bullet clear out of the barrel all by themselves. There is no great velocity there, but the fact that they will is evident of their greater power. It seems that this greater power results
in the muzzleloading bullet being shoved ahead by the primer alone, before the conflagration of the powder catches up to it. The shove is naturally going to be quite variable, so the distance up the barrel before powder burn catches up is going to be variable as well. Accuracy problems are understandable.
White long ago recommended the use of the Remington 209-4 primer in its 209 using rifles. This primer was especially made for the 410 shotshell and had about half the power of the ordinary 209 primer. It enhanced accuracy in White rifles, but was hard to find at the ordinary sporting goods store. I had to ship mine in from far away and had to buy 5000 at a time to get them. Remington ceased production of the 209-4 last Spring, but has apparently substituted the 'Kleanbore' line of 209 primers. Other manufacturers have advertised 209's made especially for muzzleloaders, the RWS primer being advertised for at least the last year, but I have yet to see any of them in Sporting Goods stores. Using
the lowest power 209 available is the only thing a shooter can do.
Adam604
I've been doing a bit more research and reloading of 12 gauge slugs:
I've performed a few test loads of a mild load of:
Federal Hull
22.9 grains Unique (2.5cc LEE Scoop)
Federal 12S3 wad (pink)
Hard wad (custom made * see below)
1.3 cc COW ( LEE Scoop)
Lee 7/8 oz Key Drive Slug (~370 grains)
Loaded in a Lee Load ALL 1 press
What I was testing was the performance of different primers on grouping and recoil
The day was pretty wet, raining pretty hard on and off while shooting a bit windy too. All shots were at 50 yards.
I used :
CCI Large Pistol Primer
Popped out primer from a used 209 primer cup and pressed in pistol primer on top of a drilled out shotgun primer to provide a base. I modified a .45 hull to use as 209 style primer holder, to remove and press in primers (I then use a .45 shell holder in my press) and it worked out great.
3 shots
Results: Very slow to light off shell, almost as if I was shooting a flintlock, I could hear the primer go off then a definite pause before the shell fired. Very light recoil, impacted 4 inches low. Horizontal grouping very tight 1/2 inch. Spread Left / Right 6 1/2 inches, mostly because of hold I think.
Remington KleanBore Muzzle Loading Primer
5 shots
Results: Light recoil, impacted at point of aim. Horizontal grouping very tight 1/2 inch. Spread Left / Right 3 1/2 inches, mostly because of hold I think. A couple of fliers, I flinched and was having trouble with my rear sandbag slipping
Winchester W209 Primer:
8 shots
Results: Light recoil, lighter than the Federal 209 primers , impacted 1 1/2 inches above point of aim. Horizontal grouping 2 1/2 inch. Spread Left / Right 3 1/2 inches.
Overall conclusion, lower power primers do seem to provide a more uniform horizontal pattern, which would seem to indicate a more uniform pressure...
The photos,
In the picture with the 3 targets the first one labeled PP is pistol primer.. the labels on the other two should be switched..
Notice I changed the header on two of the pictures.. Shot wrong target.
In the picture with all of the "stuff" you can see my "hard wad" cutter and material 3/4 inch pipe sharpened and heat treated, material, cheap 1/8 inch paneling
I'm going to do more testing with the Muzzle loading primers and let you guys know how it goes.
I'm using a Mossberg 500 with cylinder bore barrel with a Browning Rifled screw in choke.
Shamelessly stolen from the internet....
The one thing that 209 primers do well is ignite shotshells. They do this well because the amount of primer material is relatively large, and relatively surefire with a light firing pin strike. The one thing that shotgun shooters demand is sureness of ignition. They do not need accuracy, as they depend on a pattern of shot to harvest their game or break their clay. Thus, the amount and temperature of flame in a shotshell can be far in excess of that in a rifle or pistol cartridge. This situation has resulted in several problems in muzzleloaders, the worst of which is ‘over-ignition’, a term that describes too much flame and pressure for accuracy or safety.
Rifle shooters long ago noted that the most accurate loads were those that ignited progressively, from the back end. Pressures are lower, burning rates are more consistent, bullet jump is avoided and accuracy is enhanced with lower power primers. I well remember loading 308 Winchester target loads with special cases made for small rifle primers, just to enhance accuracy. Target primers are always loaded with less priming material than hunting loads.
Bullet jump is probably the bigger bugaboo with 209's in muzzleloaders. The common brand 209's are so powerful that they will throw a bullet clear out of the barrel all by themselves. There is no great velocity there, but the fact that they will is evident of their greater power. It seems that this greater power results
in the muzzleloading bullet being shoved ahead by the primer alone, before the conflagration of the powder catches up to it. The shove is naturally going to be quite variable, so the distance up the barrel before powder burn catches up is going to be variable as well. Accuracy problems are understandable.
White long ago recommended the use of the Remington 209-4 primer in its 209 using rifles. This primer was especially made for the 410 shotshell and had about half the power of the ordinary 209 primer. It enhanced accuracy in White rifles, but was hard to find at the ordinary sporting goods store. I had to ship mine in from far away and had to buy 5000 at a time to get them. Remington ceased production of the 209-4 last Spring, but has apparently substituted the 'Kleanbore' line of 209 primers. Other manufacturers have advertised 209's made especially for muzzleloaders, the RWS primer being advertised for at least the last year, but I have yet to see any of them in Sporting Goods stores. Using
the lowest power 209 available is the only thing a shooter can do.