Need some reloading help for a Martini Cadet in .32-20?

[Baltimoreed]

I picked up this nice .310/.32-20 Martini Cadet recently and started trying to work up a load but am having problems. First, my new .32-20 brass chambers perfectly. I used 4 gr of Bullseye and 100 gr .314 dia bullet to fire form the cases. There was no accuracy. The case mouth opened up to .320 and the case shoulder was gone. I’m wondering if the PO ran a .32-40 reamer into the chamber to eliminate the need for heel base bullets. I’ve got some bigger dia bullets ordered so tomorrow I’m going to beagle a .311413 mould and see what happens, it throws about .313 now.
249583249584

[curator]

Baltimoreed; Most of these Cadets had a .32-20 reamer inserted into the breech so that commercial ammo could be used. However, the .310 Greener Cadet has a .320-.322 groove diameter that will not shoot .312-.314" diameter bullets very accurately. The key to getting the .32-20 Cadet to shoot well is using the original .310/.322. 120 grain heeled bullet. RCBS can supply the mold, but better yet is CBE out of Australia who has several designs made specifically for the Cadet. I have one of these "converted" rifles and get excellent accuracy using 120 Grain bullets cast from air cooled wheel weight alloy and lubed with Lee Liquid Alox. I load 4.8 grains of Unique and thumb seat the bullets in unsized cases. No need to crimp or resize fired brass. Simply de-cap, reprime, load powder, bullet and shoot. Lots of good Cadet info in the British Militaria website: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/miniature-rook-and-cadet-rifle-forum-f3/

[uscra112]

Accurate made me a 125 grain mold that drops .323 in 20:1 alloy. I use it for a peculiar .32-40 I have that is too weak for normal .32-40 loads. I could even use it for the .32 Ideal, but I haven't yet. Mould is marked .32-125L. It's basically just an oversized Lyman # 3118.

[Outpost75]

I had a BSA Cadet Martini which had been recut with the front of a .32-40 reamer to use .32-20 brass blown out straight. Accuracy was very good with the RCBS 32-120 Cadet heeled bullet cast 1:30 tin-lead with a case full of IMR4198. I've since had the rifle rebarreled to .38 Special, which was more practical for me.

[barrabruce]

Just do it easy way and do a chamber cast to see what you actually are playing with.
From then on it’s finding a mould that will fit.

Just my view for what it’s worth.

All the other posts are good advice.

For every expert I have listen too they all sprout the same mis information.
Some swear they’re bore are 316 thou but they measure a 5 land groove with a mic and forgot you need two lands.

They can vary quite a bit in barrell dimensions and chamber depth and form.
Who knows what previous wise people have done to it before you.

I do know they shoot well with a decent barrell and bullet fit.
They don’t give much up in accuracy for a 100 yr old rifle compared to modern guns.

[uscra112]

I had a BSA Cadet Martini which had been recut with the front of a .32-40 reamer to use .32-20 brass blown out straight. Accuracy was very good with the RCBS 32-120 Cadet heeled bullet cast 1:30 tin-lead with a case full of IMR4198. I've since had the rifle rebarreled to .38 Special, which was more practical for me.

Now that interests me greatly. That rifle I just mentioned is a fine Stevens Model 108, (the rare precursor to the Model 44 for them as doesn't know), which was very recently and very unwisely rebarrelled to .32-40. I'd been thinking to shorten it to approximate the .32-30 Remington, using shortened .32-40 brass, but by going a bit further I can duplicate what you had, thus avoiding cutting up .32-40 brass which is usually unobtainium.

[uscra112]

Just do it easy way and do a chamber cast to see what you actually are playing with.
From then on it finding a mould that will fit.

Just my view for what it’s worth.

All the other posts are good advice.

In this instance, his blown-out brass is as good as a chamber cast, isn't it?

[barrabruce]

Just missed the reply’s.
"Isn’t his formed brass as good as a chamber cast?"
No I don’t think it is.
Well you can measure and see what it all looks like and what you are playing with.
Where the chamber ends and the free bore /throat if it has anything.

[cwlongshot]

I agree dont do anything to you do or have a proper chamber cast done.

It will tell
You everything ypu need to know in one step.

Dont spend good $$ needlessly.

CW

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I had a rifle that was identical in appearance to yours converted to .32-20. I shot an entire box of 50 rounds of Remington .32-20 through it and never hit a thing. Set it aside for perhaps 15 years, and then happened to read a letter in the American Rifleman where a fellow with the same problem learned that the .310 bore was actually just about a true .32 caliber. He started loading .32 cal. wadcutters in the fired brass and found that the rifle became very accurate. I tried it, and found that I didn't even need a sizing die. I would just re-prime the case, load the powder, insert the wadcutter into the case mouth, invert the cartridge and press it down on a table top until the bullet was flush with the case mouth. It worked exactly like the fellow that wrote the letter claimed, and my rifle became very accurate; so much so that it was a bit boring without much noise and recoil, so I sold it. Big, big mistake! I still have about half a box of the wadcutters, which were cast for .32 revolvers. I've used some of them for slugging smaller diameter bores.

DG

[Baltimoreed]

249594Tonight I will tear it down and make a chamber cast. I’ve got some of the casting stuff in my shop. Saw it the other day.
Curator, i went to the British Military forum that you directed. Thanks. Looked around some but I think they are more into the collecting side of military antiques where Cast Boolits is all about putting lead downrange. I’m sure that I will join and visit some more. I dig on Webleys personally, but this is my second Cadet.

[uscra112]

@ DG - Hollow-base wadcutters? And were they .312 OD or .321?

[JMtoolman]

The one I have shoots a .324 diameter heeled bullet. Shoots real well, shot a small mule deer buck a number of years ago just to see if I could. Smacked him down really fast. Hauled him home on a motorcycle! Never tried it again, thought it was a bit marginal. the toolman.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

@ DG - Hollow-base wadcutters? And were they .312 OD or .321?

My first thought was that they were .321, but it kept nagging me, so I went out to the shop and found them:
249604249605 I mic'd several of them-- they are right around .313.

[Green Frog]

In the ranks of the American Single Shot Rifle Association there are folks who seem to be getting good results shooting a true 32 caliber version of the 32-20. Most of them are using custom, faster twist barrels so they can use heavier bullets, but if I were dealing with your situation, I’d look for a relatively short, light bullet in the .319-.321 range and give that a go. You could neck size and seat with a set of 32 Winchester Special dies (not 32 WCF!)

Froggie

[Baltimoreed]

249690249691Here’s my cerrosafe chamber cast. My cadet has a big chamber. The only detail the cast shows is whats left of the 32-20 shoulder. The dummy is a fire formed case with a .320 bullet that I pulled from an old 32-40 round I found in my junk cartridge box. I chambered my dummy and then pushed a patch into the muzzle until it stopped and then removed the dummy and made my cast.

[uscra112]

My first thought was that they were .321, but it kept nagging me, so I went out to the shop and found them:
I mic'd several of them-- they are right around .313.

Right. I've never even heard of an American ".32" pistol cartridge that was a full .32. They're all just oversize .30 calibers. Marketing over substance, I guess.

[marlinman93]

Over the years a great many Martini Cadets have been rechambered to .32-20 and messed with enough to make them inaccurate. I think yours has possibility to shoot, but I don't think you will ever get there using .32-20 dies to reload since they'll overwork the brass, and size it down too small for the chamber and bullet.
I'd fire form all the brass to fit using cornmeal and a wax plug. Then once it's all fire formed you can have a .32-20 seating die opened up to the diameter you need for your .325 bore and seat bullets sized for your bore. Might take someone like Tom at Accurate molds to make a light bullet mold in the correct diameter to get it shooting well for you.

[john.k]

If a British gun says .310 on the barrel,its .310....bore......all cadets are .310 bore,they would be rejected at inspection if any larger......the variation come in the groove dia.......the early Greeners had 003 deep grooves,hence they are 316 groove.........the later delivery BSA s used a .005 to .0055 deep grove,therefore they are .320-.321 groove......very simple arithmetic,I would have thought.....Every 32-20 Cadet Ive ever seen simply had the rim groove relieved a bit......if necessary.....many Greeners take 32-20 cases without any alteration,when fired the cases come out cylindrical......only a dummy would resize them back .

[barrabruce]

Now if you have a boo lit with a heel that will thumb seat in the fired neck of your case and 0.324-325" and about 0.680" long you should be sweet.
Only need a de-reprime a case and add a pinch of powder.
310 RCBS mold maybe?
Depends on inside neck diameter.

Breach seat 8mm bullets?

[marlinman93]

Breech seating in a Martini type action isn't as easy as many other single shots.

[Drm50]

I bought a Cadet locally a few years ago. Very nice shape guy had bought it at a show. He thought he was going to shoot factory 32/20 and found out it wouldn't hit jack. When I bought it I got a zip lock with close to 100 1x
32/20 brass that had been fired in Cadet. Several had cracked necks from fire forming to chamber. Brass was Remington. Bore was in good shape. I loaded a few with 323 bullets as cast. Used soft mix of pure lead with about 10% of tin. It shot decent but didn't do much with it before I rebarreled to 218 bee.

[flintlocke]

I bought a non-collectible Westley-Richards Cadet a few years ago, of course it wouldn't keep 'em on the paper at 25 yards. So I slugged the barrel, .321" and cast the chamber (mandatory, huge chamber length differences). Yes the rcbs heeled bullet probably would have worked, but I was horrified at the price for a one purpose mold. So I modified the chamber to accept .32-20/8mm. The mold is a 125 gr wheelweight from Accurate Molds dropping ww's at .323. Superb accuracy with 1500 fps loads of Bullseye or Red Dot. And I can use the mold for two other rifles.

[Baltimoreed]

flintlocke, tell me more about your mould and could i possibly buy some bullets to try from you? Your solution seems the most logical to me. If my chamber is big enough for fireformed 32-20 brass and a real non heeled bullet why mess with the heeled ones and work the brass to an early death. Still waiting for my 170 gr .322 lead bullets from MidwayUSA. I plan on making a jig and use my HF mini mill to mill 1/4 inch +/— off the bottoms to make them lighter [125-150]. I’m thinking that I will cut down a cheap lee .32-40 die set to seat/crimp with if necessary. The case neck thickness is similar between the .32-20 and .32-40 while the case neck looks thicker on the .32 Special per the dimensional diagrams. I will experiment with using my 30 carbine sizer die as someone suggested if needed. Have some R&D as soon as the brown truck arrives.

[NoZombies]

Right. I've never even heard of an American ".32" pistol cartridge that was a full .32. They're all just oversize .30 calibers. Marketing over substance, I guess.

The S&W 32-44 used bullets in the .321" range.

[Baltimoreed]

249857
Here’s what my loads look like.
The brown truck finally arrived with my boolits. Wrecked a couple of pieces of brass before I realized I was using the 32-20 seater die. Duh. After that I figured that out I started using a junk 38 spcl seater to seat the 170 gr boolits fine. I am having to lightly resize the loaded rds to get them to go all the way into my chamber. My first 10 made a 6 in group at 30 yds with no keyholes. I’m using my 30 carbine die as a case sizer die, seems to work. I use an old military 8mm loaded round to bell the case mouth, just push the bullet into the mty case and work it around. I know 170 is a little heavy for a 1-20 twist, I’m going to play with these for a while and vary the powder and amounts to see if I can get the groups to shrink. I’ve got some 150 gr .321 ordered but no telling when they will show up. I might try to mill a little lead off the bottom of the boolits. Another idea could be to use a .321 lubriser die to swage down my bullets from the .323 that they measure to. A couple of thousands might be just enough.

[Baltimoreed]

249863
Here are my cut down 170 gr boolits. I cut the bottom off at the lower grease groove with my band saw and then used my mill to make the bullets uniform. They weigh about 130 gr. Got errands now but I’ll try them out this afternoon.

[Rapidrob]

I've been shooting my Cadets rifle for 57 years now. The bores are .323 not Britt .312 or the like. There are several bullet mold makers out there that make the proper shape ( heeled) bullet and even offer a 10 grain heavier than normal bullet.
with the proper bullet diameter and shape the bullet will obdurate properly and is very accurate out to 300 meters.
I have won our clubs off-hand matches shooting my Cadets and they are a joy to shoot with the fastest lock-time of any rifle made for a military/school.
249865
249866

[barrabruce]

What’s the purpose of the knurling on the case mouth?

I came second in the rook and rabbit rifle section in the regional zone big game shoot this year with my cadet.

It’s nothing to do with the rifles ability to shoot.
Just the loose nut on butt.

Got beat by some wipper snapper with good eyes and steady nerves.
Ha

[Baltimoreed]

Crimp in the heel based bullet if you were carrying them in bullet loops maybe?

I shot an indoor range action pistol match last night and those Camp Lejeune Marines kicked my butt. I shot 2 of the 3 stages clean but took too long to do it. A day or an evening at the range is always good.

Shot my cut down boolits and the group shrunk down to 2-3 inches. I’ll chop up some more today and see if I can work up a load.

[Rapidrob]

http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&p=23294
9 grains IMR-4227 under the 130 grain bullet has shot the best hands down. It is not a max load,but there is no leading,is very accurate and case life is outstanding.
Many of the loads are hotter but you will get cracked cases after about four reloads.

[Baltimoreed]

249891
Progress....first target was 170 gr and 4gr Bullseye...second was too much Red Dot and 130?gr....third target is 130?gr and 4gr Bullseye, 10 rds!. High left was a clean bore flier, aim point was 6;0clock on the red dot, 30 yds off my rest. Might be on the right track. I need to get some more boolits built.

[barrabruce]

Humour me and try 3 grns of bulleye.
With 1.6grns of bulleye and a 130 grn bullet mine turns into a very mild mannered rifle shooting bug holes at 50 yards.
Cci quiet load.

[marlinman93]

Humour me and try 3 grns of bulleye.
With 1.6grns of bulleye and a 130 grn bullet mine turns into a very mild mannered rifle shooting bug holes at 50 yards.
Cci quiet load.

That's a nice load for fun shooting.

[Baltimoreed]

249921249917249916
Here are 20 more rds, the top 10 group/flier are my 130 gr .323 cut down 170s and the lower group are the 150gr .321 rnfp that came from Western Bullet Co. All were loaded with 3.0 gr of Bullseye. I put a dab of whiteout on the front sight which helped out a lot.

[Rapidrob]

I use a cannelure tool to crimp the heeled bullet into the case. It works but is not really needed.
I'm making a stab-crimp tool that will dupe the original loads.

[barrabruce]

I made a Lee loader out of a 30 something cal one for mine but I still want to open up the heel on my mold to slide fit into fired cases.
Requiring no manipulation of the brass.

Baltimoreed
Most 310’s bullets are 0.680" max some a bit shorter.
If they are too long they won’t stabilise in the 1:20 twist.
Seems like it wants to shoot for you.
50 yard groups of an inch is considered quite good off a bench.
We all play with other bullets till you realise how good it will shoot with a proper bullet for your gun.
Soon when you are hooked with that nice trigger and quick ignition and how it feels in the hand you will say stuff it I want custom mold.

[flintlocke]

Baltimoreed, I am guilty of type first, fact check later. So, the 1500 fps quoted was for a 2400 load just for velocity, it was around 3" at 100 yards. Everyday load was 3.5 Red Dot with the Accurate #322125L which drops straight wheelweight at .323" at 973 fps (very low s.d.'s). My rifle was stored on the bottom of the English Channel for many years before I got it and so I did not feel bad about modifying the chamber. In order to utilize the 322125L bullet and Winchester .32-20 brass, I cut the rim counterbore to .065" on the lathe (so I didn't have to thin the rims of the brass) and then very gingerly reamed the chamber to accept the assembled round. I was fortunate to find a .348 spiral chucking reamer on ebay to do this. (by the way, an 11/32 twist drill is awfully close) I did not grind a pilot on the reamer, a real machinist would abhor my methods but it worked. Case lengths are all over the map in the .310 I guess, but I went with 1.320 to accommodate the full length .32-20. Of course I did end up with a fairly abrupt throat but I very carefully tapered the throat with a boring bar and then a little emery, 300 or so rounds later, no lead buildup.
I'd be happy to send you some bullets, not sure how to exchange information, I'm computer challenged to an extreme degree. Paul

[Baltimoreed]

Paul, just click on flintlocke and open the message I’ve sent. Thanks, Ed

[flintlocke]

Baltimoreed, I tried attacking my inbox from about 3 different directions and it all comes up: "0 messages".
Throwing security to the winds, just send me an email to phalvorseth@aol.com with your mailing address and I will ship you some boolits poste-haste. Unfortunately they are lubed with Lee liquid alox but it will come right off with a little mineral spirits, so you can apply your lube of choice. Paul

[flintlocke]

Baltimoreed, I tried attacking my inbox from about 3 different directions and it all comes up: "0 messages".
Throwing security to the winds, just send me an email to phalvorseth@aol.com with your mailing address and I will ship you some boolits poste-haste. Unfortunately they are lubed with Lee liquid alox but it will come right off with a little mineral spirits, so you can apply your lube of choice. Paul

[Baltimoreed]

Paul, got the brass and bullets. Thanks again. I haven’t done anything serious with them yet as I’ve been reloading .45lc for my cas match Saturday. Your 30 cadet brass is a whole lot shorter than my 32-20 brass. Maybe that is one of my ammo’s issues. I’ve also just gotten a .321 sizer die that I can play with to see if my cut down 8mm boolits will group tighter. I will get back to my cadet next week.

[Bigslug]

The thread's been idle for a couple years, and it did get a little long, but there's information in there that is worth your time:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?248822-More-Cadet-Talk

Your experience mimics mine - my bore slugged out at .3185" and the shoulder of a standard .32-20 case gets blown out to nearly straightwall. I ended up with a custom .3205" mold from LBT, and made some adjustments are far as dies used (and not used) to get it done. You have much potential for an accurate and insanely fun plinker, but you'l be a little bit off the reservation as far as "standard specs" go.

[john.k]

Funny thing is a lot of cadets were rechambered to 32 Special,and owners always report excessive recoil ,but Ive never heard anyone of them say the 165gn FN bullets were unstable,or hit sideways.....so maybe the 22" twist will stabilize heavier bullets if velocities are kept above the trans sonic range velocities ,say around 1600fps.or more.

[barrabruce]

Funny thing is a lot of cadets were rechambered to 32 Special,and owners always report excessive recoil ,but Ive never heard anyone of them say the 165gn FN bullets were unstable,or hit sideways.....so maybe the 22" twist will stabilize heavier bullets if velocities are kept above the trans sonic range velocities ,say around 1600fps.or more.
You maybe right about that.
But I thought they were more concerned about the state of their collar bone than where the eeerrghh ahhhh Bullet went.
:grin: