Highly Expensive, non-toxic idea

[TheJournier]

Research Update
So this is again running with the notion that I can match the ballistic profile and kinetic energy of a lead bullet but with using non-lead metals. The idea is to make lead and non bullets synonymous in terms of raw kinetic energy, ballistic profile.

The test rifle round will be 90-100 grain 243. This should cut costs with making the bullet. The idea is that this will be a hunting round or something I would cast for lead free hunting. This isn't practice or plinking round, it just simply is supposed to mimic cheaper lead bullets.
#1) Tungsten/Bismuth composite bullets (most seriously thought out idea I've had yet)

How they will be made.

https://www.rotometals.com/lead-free-bullet-casting-alloy-88-bismuth-12-tin/

88%/12% bismuth/tin will be act as the volume of the bullet. While tungsten is merely the weight.

They will be made just like casting a regular lead bullet. Then hollowed out via drill and a chunk of tungsten rod will be inserted and sealed in. The tungsten chunk should bump it up to lead density easy. the rod does not have to be very long.

All in all, we are talking about 75 cent bullet, that's the bullet not the actual round with case and all. A significant amount less than I thought it would be, funny what a little research can do.

This will likely be the very first thing I try.
So far I have 2 ideas, yes the drawings aren't to scale they are rough, but the tungsten chunk will be tiny. 8mm long 1/8" diameter chunk weighing roughly 19 grains. I have 2 design ideas in mind.

249806
249807
Legality concerns
Ok so I did a fair bit of research. The one think that struck me was the use of the word "Core" (which has a differing definition, legally this bullet would be a Bismuth/Tungsten core that is clearly not designed for armor penetration but instead for improving kinetic delivery from a smaller bullet). Smaller bullets are generally better to shoot (it's just the fact that lightness means it can more easily effected by wind), a way to fix this is to make the bullet denser. Denser bullets have less surface area and are less effected by the wind.

-- >>> To compare M855 would be illegal if it weren't for a very specific wording.

a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

This states that the bullet must be entirely made of the controlled materials, that is tungsten, brass, and what not. What I'm proposing would be 80% by weight (more so by volume) bismuth (legal), and 20% tungsten (illegal). Much like the M855 is made of steel (illegal), and lead (legal).
for clarity I'm calling this an unjacketed Bismuth alloy/tungsten composite bullet.

- it is my belief that it is here I would have strong precedent in fighting the ATF if they decided to arrest or whatever over this (I would win, as they would have to prove intent to disobey the law). Or, I would at least get told to stop, which I would happily comply (as I don't have the resources to lobby for this).

however I strongly suspect that this will be swept under the water as I don't intend to sell these bullets these are for my personal use. I likely will have more lead bullets than I have these on hand (as these are more of a specialty round). This wouldn't really catch attention.

#2) Silver/platinum alloy rounds
This will be done more than likely, for the lols. But it more than likely will not be a hunting round I use if the Tungsten core bismuth rounds work. But essentially the will be made from silver 90/10 from fine materials. The rounds will also likely be milled.
30-40$ a round (308, 150 grain standard).

Thoughts?

[JimB..]

A machined copper solid has proven to be an effective hunting bullet, and while expensive relative to cast or swaged bullets, it’d be cheap compared to the alloys you’re considering so avoids the issue of practicing with one round and shooting another.

[Winger Ed.]

I try not to over think things.

If I was so concerned about lead contamination- which is really a non-issue,
I'd shoot a GI style full metal jacket, or a all copper Barnes solid.

However; it might be a good idea to make a few in solid Silver for the occasional werewolf.

Most of the tissue damage you see in a wound channel is caused by the impact shock wave.
You cut it away due to being blood shot, not just any lead contamination.
It the same effect as dropping a rock in loose sand.
The sand (crater) is moved out and disturbed in a larger area than just the rock itself,
and doesn't have any fragments of the rock in it.

[John McCorkle]

Werewolves should hate em.

I don't know if the weight/density will be the only factors if your goal is to replicate practice lead with hunting precious/bismuth alloys. The metal properties such as malleability and hardness will effect it's obturation in the bore and it's specific accuracy compared to lead in the same load...they may shoot completely differently.

It's a great project for the sake of science but weigh your end result requirements against the cost increase of just one missed shot not recaptured. I can buy alot of lead with 90 bucks. Buy alot of venison too.

One thing I'll be doing this year is refining the loads I hunt with to enough accuracy to hit a lime-lemon sized target at the maximum distance I hunt at. Every time. If I can do that I can peg the base of the neck where it meets the spine just ahead of the shoulders or my go to high shoulder shot and put them down immediately. Neck = near zero lost meat, high shoulder = some but shot placement being key you can thread the needle and not lose as much as you'd think

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk

[TheJournier]

A machined copper solid has proven to be an effective hunting bullet, and while expensive relative to cast or swaged bullets, it’d be cheap compared to the alloys you’re considering so avoids the issue of practicing with one round and shooting another.

true, might still do it though, for the novelty of it. Like people have done with silver and pure gold even, and those way more expensive.


I try not to over think things.

If I was so concerned about lead contamination- which is really a non-issue,
I'd shoot a GI style full metal jacket, or a all copper Barnes solid.

However; it might be a good idea to make a few in solid Silver for the occasional werewolf.

It is slight but lead is not really something I like in my meat. Granted it is simple to just cut out damaged bits, but still. ~Also think lead is on its way out for hunting.

[tomme boy]

You know anti gun people get some of their ideas from things like this. It is better to just leave it alone. They can say "SEE it has been done!"

[kerplode]

Wait, what? Copper bullets are too expensive to practice with, so let's make $90/ea gold alloy bullets instead?

You could buy around 120 TSXs for the cost of one of your $90 gold bullets and you won't have mine the berm and hope like hell you find them all afterwards.

[swheeler]

I still remember eating prairie chicken dinners growing up, you spit the lead shot into your napkin, I'm just fine!:veryconfu I think, sometimes, maybe, I don't know, what was the question?

[762 shooter]

I don't cut away meat that I think has touched a piece of lead.

I cut away meat that has been damaged by hydro static shock. Meat jelly.

762

[dondiego]

You are still going to have to cut out the meat around the impact zone. No gain there. Are you a jeweler? You must have some good alloying equipment.

[TheJournier]

You know anti gun people get some of their ideas from things like this. It is better to just leave it alone. They can say "SEE it has been done!"
Science is great progress my dude. I don't think it will be viable and I think most reasonable people will realize this wouldn't be very commercially viable bullet. Specially when the average joe would be happy with shooting/practicing with straight copper bullets. As said below.

Besides I have a feeling that by the time we go asteroid mining and the gold market floods for these resources. We'll start all shooting 100% pure gold because it technically would be a better projectile because of its density and it is just as soft as straight gliding metal from FMJs.


Wait, what? Copper bullets are too expensive to practice with, so let's make $90/ea gold alloy bullets instead?

You could buy around 120 TSXs for the cost of one of your $90 gold bullets and you won't have mine the berm and hope like hell you find them all afterwards.
That's a generious estimate though. $90 would be the brass, and the most expensive copper 82/18 copper/platinum alloy. I may actually get it down to about 40 or 50 copper bullets. And that would be a saving considering, I can recover what I shot 9 times out 10 if I hit. I should have loads of practice with lead which is mimicked by that metal.


I still remember eating prairie chicken dinners growing up, you spit the lead shot into your napkin, I'm just fine!:veryconfu I think, sometimes, maybe, I don't know, what was the question?
Yeah we've eaten and done things we shouldn't have way back when. I watched a casting tutorial just now, and the kid was literally decked out to prevent himself from breathing in any lead fumes from casting.

[TheJournier]

You are still going to have to cut out the meat around the impact zone. No gain there. Are you a jeweler? You must have some good alloying equipment.

Also, I do plan on doing things with said metals in the future. Jewelry is one of them, my interest materials in general mainly. It will be more a science experiment than a serious "OMG! everyone should do this!".

I also hear it's more than impact. A lot of issue with the metal litterally dispersing in the dear when shot. Of course I could go the FMJ round XD. Also depends on the round you use too, like some rounds don't have a lot of shock damage.

[Texas by God]

You're gonna die anyway. Just eat right up to the bullet hole. Lead equals dead when it is a projectile and hits something alive in a vital place. Otherwise? Eh.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[merlin101]

[QUOTE=TheJournier;474299
I can recover what I shot 9 times out 10 if I hit. [/QUOTE]
That's quite an assumption, In my 50+ years of hunting whitetail deer I have very VERY rarely recovered a projectile let alone 9 out of 10! Honestly I doubt I recovered even 9 out of at least 75, that's going up the cost quite a bit.

[TheJournier]

what do you use usually?

[porthos]

if i was that afraid of lead poisioning i would never cast or touch a lead bullet. there seems to be a lot of fear in your life. so sad.

[kenton]

I think it is an interesting experiment, even if not actually practical. I suspect that you will have issues with differing points of impact but only experimentation will determine if that is the case.

Please keep us posted.

[Hogtamer]

249576
https://www.rotometals.com/zamak-3-ingot-aluminum-4-zinc-96/

[JBinMN]

Welcome to CB.GL Forum.

I wish you well in your experiments, but I do not like your idea, so I think that is all I will say about it.

G'Luck!

[Valornor]

Copper bullets such as Barnes TSX and Hornady GMX are swaged not machined. Definitely a harder material to cold work but it is done.

I have played around with jacketed zinc bullets, as a lead free alternative to solid copper. Pure zinc tends to be quite brittle, so it’ll expand but it tends to break up quickly. You have to keep the zinc pure as to get the highest density. Really makes a great bullet for shooting steel, it’s softer on steel then lead is. You can check out Barnes Range AR, they use a zinc core bullet.

As far as using a precious metal for bullets. If it wasn’t so expensive you’d probably find it on the market. After all the military uses, or at least, used to use, depleted uranium as cores for some of its AP rounds. High sectional density, and Uranium has some pretty unique characteristics when it impacts something aiding in its ability to penetrate armor. Obviously not, non toxic.

I think probably next generation bullets are going to use a poly metallic core and jacket. Instead of alloying they use blended metal powders to get the density and weight they are after, mixed with a polymer, and then baked to bond everything. The bullets have some pretty unique shapes that would be difficult if not impossible to swage, and the terminal ballistics match if not exceed conventional bullet designs.






Check out my website www.theballisticassistant.com

[nueces5]

If you are going to make those golden boolits, please shoot me:smile:

[JimB..]

Copper bullets such as Barnes TSX and Hornady GMX are swaged not machined. Definitely a harder material to cold work but it is done.



I was thinking about Cutting Edge and Lehigh, both of which I believe are machined and not swaged. Didn’t know that Hornady and Barnes offered copper solids.

[Mr_Sheesh]

You just need a plasma rifle or laser cannon :p

[Valornor]

Gotcha, yeah I know some companies machine their copper monolithics. Copper can be swaged it just takes a lot more force.


Check out my website www.theballisticassistant.com

[uscra112]

Why not use silver, like the Lone Ranger?

[TheJournier]

You just need a plasma rifle or laser cannon :p

If only. That would be precooked deer when you shot one. But alas lazers tend to not be very lethal unless they are huge.


If you are going to make those golden boolits, please shoot me:smile:
No, Why? :p


Copper bullets such as Barnes TSX and Hornady GMX are swaged not machined. Definitely a harder material to cold work but it is done.

I have played around with jacketed zinc bullets, as a lead free alternative to solid copper. Pure zinc tends to be quite brittle, so it’ll expand but it tends to break up quickly. You have to keep the zinc pure as to get the highest density. Really makes a great bullet for shooting steel, it’s softer on steel then lead is. You can check out Barnes Range AR, they use a zinc core bullet.

As far as using a precious metal for bullets. If it wasn’t so expensive you’d probably find it on the market. After all the military uses, or at least, used to use, depleted uranium as cores for some of its AP rounds. High sectional density, and Uranium has some pretty unique characteristics when it impacts something aiding in its ability to penetrate armor. Obviously not, non toxic.

I think probably next generation bullets are going to use a poly metallic core and jacket. Instead of alloying they use blended metal powders to get the density and weight they are after, mixed with a polymer, and then baked to bond everything. The bullets have some pretty unique shapes that would be difficult if not impossible to swage, and the terminal ballistics match if not exceed conventional bullet designs.

That would be an interesting take. But I think it would take some fairly expensive metals to compensate. Like Osmium or Iridium. Honestly if I could alloy those metals I would as they are even cheaper and denser, because there's such a limited use for them. The problem is, these metals are so hard to smelt and just hard. Also there's the impact, how would that work exactly, all those metal powder scattered everywhere. Tungsten would also be another choice too for the "powder" which is pretty inexpensive, but the dirty little secret about it is, it like lead is toxic.


Why not use silver, like the Lone Ranger?
Ah Silver. I actually start to do cost calculations for silver believe it or not. I would need to make approximately 1lb of alloy with silver. Silver has a density of 10.49 g/cm^3, lead has 11.35 g/cm^3. It would take a very light alloy with platinum to get it to the right weight. And it is cheaper because it takes even less platinum. Were talking 10% so that bring the cost of making a bullet down to around 34.08 vs 65.36 for copper. I was wrong about bismuth it would cost about 104.64 per bullet.. yikes.

[mdi]

Welcome to castboolits. Reading the OP I had a thought I haven't seen mentioned.
Bismuth/tin which has suspect malleability If by malleability you mean expansion on target, many boolit casters don't rely on bullet expansion for effectiveness on target. I don't hunt anymore, but I reload and use a bullet that has a profile that does enough tissue damage. I have 2 molds for Ranch Dog design bullets (240 and 265 gr.), RNFP designed for hunting that work without depending on alloy soft enough to expand on impact.

I appreciate reloaders/casters that "think outside the box", as a bunch of things we use/do every day started with "I wonder if...". I'm sure there are many members that use a stinky metal preserver for a bullet lube and some that use beer can material for gas checks. Don't let the nay-sayers get you down...

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

SNIP...

So reading through various research I read we currently have only 2 types of viable nontoxic bullets. These round fascinate me, because you can essentially save all of the meat from what you kill and not worry about cutting out "bad meat" because of the damage from lead. 9 times out 10.

...

Thoughts?
TheJournier,
Welcome to the forum.
It sounds like you bring lot's of clever ideas. I eagerly await reading about any tests you eventually do.

My thoughts?
I am not concerned about lead contamination of game meat, as I believe the published warnings of such are mostly politically motivated. I have yet to see an actual study where the meat is tested and/or if the tested concentration, if ingested, will transfer to the bloodstream in a unacceptable amount. All I've read is warnings put out by bureaucratic agencies. I suppose I could be wrong? I am open to correction on that.

More thoughts.
Besides casting, reloading, tumbling used cases with spent Primers intact...all instances where I have come into contact with lead and/or ingest/breathe it, I also worked for a circuit company for a decade, which used a wave solder machine using a Lead alloy solder during that entire time. Part of my duties were to operate as well as maintain, and occasionally clean the solder pot. That was the 80s and early 90s, and the typical handling precautions "of that time", were taken (things are much more stringent now). All my Blood-Lead test results were within Government maximums and luckily I've never had any symptoms of lead blood poisoning.
. Also, as others have mentioned, Over the decades, I have chewed on lead bird-shot in Ducks and Pheasants that were harvested with a shotgun...and as a Youth, while fishing with lead split-shot, I've used to teeth to clench them to the line. I suspect many people in the last hundred years, who have lived in fly-over country, have done the same...there hasn't been a huge breakout of Lead poisoning from those activities...BUT the reported instances of Lead poisoning have been in and near urban centers and were caused by Leaded Gasoline, and also some instances were from children consuming/inhaling old dry house paint that contained lead...both of which are no longer being manufactured.

[TheJournier]

TheJournier,


My thoughts?
I am not concerned about lead contamination of game meat, as I believe the published warnings of such are mostly politically motivated. I have yet to see an actual study where the meat is tested and/or if the tested concentration, if ingested, will transfer to the bloodstream in a unacceptable amount. All I've read is warnings put out by bureaucratic agencies. I suppose I could be wrong? I am open to correction on that.


Well I'm not going to teach an older man how to make babies. But, when you say that this is a political stunt, my wonder is what exactly would be the end goal. There has to be a better notion than "STOP SHOOTING LEAD BULLETS!". As someone else posted, you could use different metals, and maybe a new industry standard to bullet making is achieved via. Copper, Zinc/tin, bismuth or whatever. If that happens - me shooting denser bullets would be a moot point.

I think the science is there, it's always been there. Lead in its pure form isn't good as well as impure forms found in chemical salts, I mean cities are replacing lead pipes because of the health hazard. There's an advisory of how pregnant women shouldn't eat wild game because of lead, and birds are dying from eat leftovers. Lead has no biological use in our body, and it's toxic it's and not just inert our body does something it should with it.

You also have to consider lead poisoning is a spectrum, it's not an all or nothing thing where X level means your are healthy and x level means you are unhealthy. Having no lead in your body is a good thing, just a lower levels puts you at less of a risk for developing lead poisoning.

[Burnt Fingers]

How are you going to handle these alloys? What are you going to use to melt them? Mold them?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Well I'm not going to teach an older man how to make babies. But, when you say that this is a political stunt, my wonder is what exactly would be the end goal. There has to be a better notion than "STOP SHOOTING LEAD BULLETS!". As someone else posted, you could use different metals, and maybe a new industry standard to bullet making is achieved via. Copper, Zinc/tin, bismuth or whatever. If that happens - me shooting denser bullets would be a moot point.

I think the science is there, it's always been there. Lead in its pure form isn't good as well as impure forms found in chemical salts, I mean cities are replacing lead pipes because of the health hazard. There's an advisory of how pregnant women shouldn't eat wild game because of lead, and birds are dying from eat leftovers. Lead has no biological use in our body, and it's toxic it's and not just inert our body does something it should with it.

You also have to consider lead poisoning is a spectrum, it's not an all or nothing thing where X level means your are healthy and x level means you are unhealthy. Having no lead in your body is a good thing, just a lower levels puts you at less of a risk for developing lead poisoning.
Again, I think you bring lot's of clever ideas (I am serious, no sarcasm). I eagerly await reading about any tests you eventually do.

but you did ask for my thoughts, I gave them.
I now feel compelled to add the following.
First, "politically motivated" is different than a "political stunt"...please don't change my words.

The "end goal" is more control over a citizen's activities.
I suspect the desire to ban all hunting from regular citizens isn't far beyond a Lead ammo ban. If you look at who is pushing for Lead ammo bans, and what else those groups say about human activity, I believe the thought of a future hunting ban would be obvious. It also should be obvious, when lies are used to sell the "end goal".

Below is some "science"

Research indicates no Lead threat in hunted game
http://www.huntfortruth.org/research-indicates-no-lead-threat-in-hunted-game/

2013 study: Lead in game meat does not present a human health hazard.
http://media.wix.com/ugd/e4faa6_49034f4544988fbcdc066574c430f3b4.pdf

[tomme boy]

The chemicals they are using to treat the water are the same ones that leeching the lead and other chemicals into the water. All of these gov't mandates are some of the same reasons that water, sewer, electricity, propane kerosene, gas,....... keep raising in price. Only reason lead is killing birds is the gizzard they have to digest food. It grinds the oxide off the lead and then it gets into their system. Kind of funny how lead in the water has only just began to be a problem in the last few years. These cities have always had it in the pipes. But NOW it is a problem???? I wonder why??

[Green Frog]

At the risk of sounding like a smart aleck (or worse) if you can recover the fired bullets with a high percentage success rate, why worry about environmental contamination? It has been shown for a couple of centuries now that meat surrounding the (lead based) doesn’t become significantly contaminated, so that’s pretty much a non-issue. Just wonderin’.

Froggie

[TheJournier]

Ok, so politics first, then I'll answer the how I'll make precious bullets later post:


I suspect the desire to ban all hunting from regular citizens isn't far beyond a Lead ammo ban.

I think this is very much overstated. To state rational as to why the whole non-lead thing = gun/hunting ban is very much overstated is the fact that the park service often culls animals to help with overpopulation in a certain area. That is, if Joe doesn't pay for a hunting permit and goes hunting legally (which also funds the park service) what will wind up happening, the parks themselves will start killing game. If you even take it further there's other ways of hunting via bow and airgun (which are fairly easy to make lead free or are inherently lead free).

As for the articles, I found the sites very political leaning and strongly about disproving the utility of leadfree bullets based on the perceived notion here. Also the lack of a fully quoted/linked source is a highly disconcerting. No worries though I did read the actual research study that was significantly beefier, and I don't think it exactly disproves or proves either side and mainly states what I already suspected, cut away the lead and you should be fine. This is also based on what we currently know about lead Circa 2012 not 2013 as the webpage article stated and it is orginally from Sweden which now has a ban on lead shot (as in shotguns). Also some of his samples *not-all had a bioavailability higher than 1mg/kg. He also stated, that it was highly inaccurate and that if you cut away (as we traditionally do) the meat closest to the gunshot it becomes negligible.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2540062


The chemicals they are using to treat the water are the same ones that leeching the lead

Or lack there of, in Flint... where some of my family is from. They recently had water quality issues because they failed to treat the water properly to prevent lead from leaching into the water supply. Lead actually quite readily reacts with acid particularly HCl to form a toxic salt (PbCl2). I know there's a high distrust of chemicals, sometimes they are necessary in order to prevent certain reactions from happening. Everything on this planet is chemistry. Also exposure to lead isn't good, it's like UV or radiation, less is good ALWAYS as it causes x amount of cell damage. There have been people who have gotten lead poisoning from gunshots (that is metallic lead not salt). Granted, having a bullet that stays in your body for months vs. something that passes in 24-72 hrs are 2 different things but still.

Also birds have smaller bodies, so they are more susceptible to lead poisoning than say an elephant. Lead does dissolve in our body and become a salt, our stomach for one has a small amount of HCl which in turn become PbCL2, a toxic salt.




if you can recover the fired bullets with a high percentage success rate

In short it is hard, particularly with lead. Lead is soft and flakes off into little pieces when hit hard enough. Copper, silver, and gold are harder and just have different metallurgical properties and tends to retain their shape better when shot.

^Bismuth has the same problem as lead it is just a bit more brittle so it blows apart into chucks when shot. Any how vid below shows this property.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCMUrp58cPg

Anyhow we're all friends here I'm not going to try to convince you that you should worry about lead. It is more to do with my neurosis, and yes this is more of a case of "Look guys I shot silver/plat bullets!!! cooooll". When it is all said and done, I'll probably wind up using copper rounds and correcting/accounting for their differing ballistics. Ok now the HOW i do this questions!!!

[mdi]

I can only speak about the lead bullet ban in CA. The ban was quietly pushed through by politicians with a lot of anti-hunter, anti-gun "do-gooders" that funneled quite a bit of money into their campaigns. The original excuse was the CA buzzard was dying from lead poisoning from eating gut piles that contained lead bullets (although this "reasoning" was not made public right away, nor was there seen any "real"studies published until after the fact).The same thing happened with the ban on lead wheel weights. Some "environmentalists" claimed the evil little imps flew off cars and trucks, landed on the road, and were ground to powder by passing vehicles. Then the rains came and washed the ground/powdered lead into the ground and eventually contaminating the ground water and everybody, every thing within 2 miles of a major highway got lead poisoning. Politicians have promoted the lead "poisoning" scare for different reasons, mainly to pander votes from ignorant voters...

[waksupi]

I wonder if Britannia metal would work? It's what modern pewter is made of, and is pretty available in junk shops and yard sales.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britannia_metal

[johnho]

How come I wasn't told all this when I was buying all those split shot to bite on my fishing lines when I was a kid ( a LONG time ago)? I'm not going to worry about any of this. Now pass my seizure meds.

[TheJournier]

How are you going to handle these alloys? What are you going to use to melt them? Mold them?

In short the answer is it's mold, or forge/machine them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6Mk7w_c3tI

The thought is to use the platinum as the base, and slowly dilute it out by melting more and more silver into it. From there I can.

1.) Simply cast them and try to make sure that I cast them slightly larger than the finished bullet and buff/cut out the surface air bubbles like in the video. Cut them down to size via lathe.

2.) Forge/swage them in to shape. Silver is softer than copper, and you can heat the metal if necessary to get it into shape.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meiW0w7ysxo&t=108s

It'll take a bit of experimentation for sure. Alloying it shouldn't be a problem as jewelers do it all the time.

[dondiego]

Well I'm not going to teach an older man how to make babies. But, when you say that this is a political stunt, my wonder is what exactly would be the end goal. There has to be a better notion than "STOP SHOOTING LEAD BULLETS!". As someone else posted, you could use different metals, and maybe a new industry standard to bullet making is achieved via. Copper, Zinc/tin, bismuth or whatever. If that happens - me shooting denser bullets would be a moot point.

I think the science is there, it's always been there. Lead in its pure form isn't good as well as impure forms found in chemical salts, I mean cities are replacing lead pipes because of the health hazard. There's an advisory of how pregnant women shouldn't eat wild game because of lead, and birds are dying from eat leftovers. Lead has no biological use in our body, and it's toxic it's and not just inert our body does something it should with it.

You also have to consider lead poisoning is a spectrum, it's not an all or nothing thing where X level means your are healthy and x level means you are unhealthy. Having no lead in your body is a good thing, just a lower levels puts you at less of a risk for developing lead poisoning.

Can you provide an article of proof of this advisory? I have never heard of it.

[TheJournier]

Can you provide an article of proof of this advisory? I have never heard of it.

The North Dakota thing,
https://www.ndhealth.gov/lead/venison/


I wonder if Britannia metal would work? It's what modern pewter is made of, and is pretty available in junk shops and yard sales.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britannia_metal

^ I don't see why not, I'd try it if I had my stuff set up. It melts at a very low temp. It's a tinge lighter than copper but not terribly.

[Walks]

I just read this entire post.

My Head hurts. Too much thinking for me.

[waksupi]

The North Dakota thing,
https://www.ndhealth.gov/lead/venison/



^ I don't see why not, I'd try it if I had my stuff set up. It melts at a very low temp. It's a tinge lighter than copper but not terribly.

Research that ND thing further, you will find it was debunked.

[TheJournier]

I searched a little nothing on Google that said ND was wrong.

Here is a recent paper 2018 says pregnant women and children up to 7 or so shouldn't

Pg.28 under recomendation.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6062035/#!po=64.4737

[Edward]

Science is great progress my dude. I don't think it will be viable and I think most reasonable people will realize this wouldn't be very commercially viable bullet. Specially when the average joe would be happy with shooting/practicing with straight copper bullets. As said below.

Besides I have a feeling that by the time we go asteroid mining and the gold market floods for these resources. We'll start all shooting 100% pure gold because it technically would be a better projectile because of its density and it is just as soft as straight gliding metal from FMJs.


That's a generious estimate though. $90 would be the brass, and the most expensive copper 82/18 copper/platinum alloy. I may actually get it down to about 40 or 50 copper bullets. And that would be a saving considering, I can recover what I shot 9 times out 10 if I hit. I should have loads of practice with lead which is mimicked by that metal.


Yeah we've eaten and done things we shouldn't have way back when. I watched a casting tutorial just now, and the kid was literally decked out to prevent himself from breathing in any lead fumes from casting.

As soon as you said (DUDE) I understand why you said lead is on it"s on the way out for hunting ,but in the USA lead is still the most used (boolit component) . Only in California I understand it causes mass hysteria

[rking22]

That ND study admitted they had no controls and therefore indeterminate results. Do you really expect them to do a study($$$) then report “oops, forgot the control group” need more $$$ for another study. They did a study and reported the only “safe” thing they could. Can’t risk saying the chances are minuscule carry on as before in today’s lawsuit infested world. The fear of lawyers is causing everyone to worry themselves into sickness worrying about EVERYTHING”. If the op is afraid of losing 4 oz of bloodshot meat and willing to spend 90$ for a bullet to avoid that, fine by me. I will continue as before with balanced alloy cast bullets and my blood lead tests indicate I do not have an issue.

[TheJournier]

As soon as you said (DUDE) I understand why you said lead is on it"s on the way out for hunting ,but in the USA lead is still the most used (boolit component) . Only in California I understand it causes mass hysteria

That's common vernacular, don't know what you're supposed to get out of that. But I'll have to say the fact that even though Arizona and Utah don't ban lead ammo, it is strongly encouraged speaks volumes.

BTW I'm not from California, and am from the US.

[waksupi]

I remember grand dad carried three WW1 German machine gun slugs in him until he died at 74. It must work pretty slow.

[TheJournier]

More than likely they were FMJ so that has some impact vs hollow points

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4624950/

it still affects blood lead levels.

https://www.rarediseasesjournal.com/articles/commentary-quadriparesis-caused-by-lead-poisoning-nine-years-after-a-gunshot-wound-with-retained-bullet-fragments-a-case-report.html

Some people have gotten sick over it. Sure variance in how lead gets metabolized and sometimes it is masked by other mild symptoms (it contributes to a lot motor impairments and heart problems) etc.

[JimB..]

So here’s the thing IMHO, this is a pure science question.

There is no reasonably anticipated benefit whatsoever, you just want to figure out if you can make something that’s as good a bullet material as lead at any cost, and you don’t want an existing solution like a copper solid.

I suggest that you stop trying to rationalize what you want to do, and just do it. If it works, get the patent and maybe one day someone will find a use for it.

If I’m wrong and you either really believe the anti-lead pseudo science or are just trolling, well good luck to yah.

[gwpercle]

The Lone Ranger (Clayton Moore) used silver boolits ...he was so environmentally sensitive and set such a great example for us to follow... decades before CA did their study and deemed lead boolits will kill you ! My Hero...
Hi-Yo Silver ... Away !
Gary

[Valornor]

Most of the “Heavy Metals” and metals we might consider “Precious” are poisonous to some degree. Since they are rare the body doesn’t have much of a tolerance for them and they can cause issues at pretty low concentrations.

Personally I’d love to experiment with gold bullets, but alas my budget and my wife say “No”.

As others have said, don’t try to justify it with environmental or health reasons. Just do it because there hasn’t been much done on that side of things due to the material cost.


Check out my website www.theballisticassistant.com

[TheJournier]

Most of the “Heavy Metals” and metals we might consider “Precious” are poisonous to some degree. Since they are rare the body doesn’t have much of a tolerance for them and they can cause issues at pretty low concentrations.



Silver is toxic somewhat (you really have to be trying to overdose, it is often used in medicine for burns). But essentially platinum, silver, gold whilst being heavy metals are VERY inert and refered to as "noble metals". Platinum even has a surgical aplication.
~ so no not really. Think of it this way, it is often used in jewelry and what not, and gold for example is really resistant to acids. People eat gold. I mean to a certain degree iron can be toxic but alas it isn't to the degree lead is.

Anyhow I've update my ideas. One should be much much more affordable. I'm no longer even considering gold whatsoever.


Research Update
So this is again running with the notion that I can match the ballistic profile and kinetic energy of a lead bullet but with using non-lead metals. The idea is to make lead and non bullets synonymous in terms of ran kinetic energy, ballistic profile.

#1) Tungsten-core, bismuth cast bullets (most seriously thought out idea I've had yet)

How they will be made.

https://www.rotometals.com/lead-free-bullet-casting-alloy-88-bismuth-12-tin/

88%/12% bismuth/tin will be act as the core volume of the bullet.

They will be made just like casting a regular lead bullet. Then hollowed out via drill and a chunk of tungsten rod will be inserted and sealed in. The tungsten chunk should bump it up to lead density easy. the rod does not have to be very long.

All in all I think we are talking 1-2 dollars a bullet and the tungsten rod (2-5mm), if found should be 100% recoverable as it hard and any bismuth glued on will melt off of tungsten. It should also break apart a lot like lead or hollow points because of the differing pieces.

This will likely be the very first thing I try.

[Valornor]

https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/heavy-metal-poisoning/

Depends on the mode of exposure. You won’t get gold poisoning from getting shot with a bullet, but if you work around gold, grind it, polish it, smelt it, pretty much anything that releases gold in microscopic particles, it has the potential to cause issues. This is true of most metals.

The one thing that hasn’t been mentioned but you need to be careful of is making a bullet that is considered Armor Piercing,


The GCA defines “armor piercing ammunition” as:

“(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.”


It doesn’t matter if you never intend to shoot the bullet from a pistol, it just means if it can be shot from a pistol. Using tungsten in a bullet is a no-no.




Check out my website www.theballisticassistant.com

[john.k]

The commonest non lead bullet is what the military use,steel jacket,sintered iron core,or soft iron core.very cheap,but need serious machinery to make......which is of no account ........Incidentally,zinc can be drawn like brass,to make a tough tenacious ,non brittle materal,similar to drawn brass,and then annealed to make a soft pliable wire.Which is used for zinc spraying.

[TheJournier]

https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/heavy-metal-poisoning/

Depends on the mode of exposure. You won’t get gold poisoning from getting shot with a bullet, but if you work around gold, grind it, polish it, smelt it, pretty much anything that releases gold in microscopic particles, it has the potential to cause issues. This is true of most metals.

The one thing that hasn’t been mentioned but you need to be careful of is making a bullet that is considered Armor Piercing,


The GCA defines “armor piercing ammunition” as:

“(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.”




Check out my website www.theballisticassistant.com

it would be less than 25% at just 20% and it would not pass any sort of penetration tests they did any for it. It is also chambered in a rifle not pistol. Also some "copper" lead free bullets would fail this as they are made from "gliding metal" which is bronze/brass. 80% bismuth/ 20% tungsten by weight.

[megasupermagnum]

My thoughts? This thread is insane. Bad idea, full of misinformation. Lead is not on it's way out! It won't be until something comparable is come up with. Barnes bullets are super expensive, and only work well in certain calibers, mainly the highest velocity rifles. Bismuth/Tin is also quite expensive, and has problems of it's own. I don't know what gold mining asteroid you've been on, but I can guarantee lead will not be replaced by gold, silver, or platinum in any amount or form.

[Valornor]

The ATF doesn’t do penetration tests to determine what is AP and what isn’t. They strictly follow the letter of the law.

Barnes use to make Brass solids for .338-.458 cal for use in African game for years until the ATF came back an said nope, “Someone makes a pistol that they can be shot from”

Likely it was a Thompson Center Contender or something similar.

A lot of 5.56x39 was banned from importation as it was considered AP due to people making AK pistols.

It’s not whether or not you intend to fire it from a pistol, it’s whether or not it can be fired from a pistol.

The 5% or 10% zinc thats in guilding Copper has been something that has been a grey area. Technically, it’s a brass, but ATF allows it to be produced. Barnes uses pure copper, but Hornady and some others use Guilding copper in their GMX bullets.

The laws around AP stuff boils down to 1) the materials used in the bullets construction 2) the jacket design 3) can it be fired in a pistol

It pretty much only has to run afoul of two of those criteria before it’s no bueno.


M855 is considered AP, but it has a sporting exemption. The ATF was considering pulling the exemption recently but backed down after public outcry.


You can do what you want, I’m just giving a heads up. Like I said, I love to see where your experiments go.




Check out my website www.theballisticassistant.com

[44Blam]

Seems like a pointed tungsten rod in soft metal would be an armor piercing round...

[TheJournier]

The commonest non lead bullet is what the military use,steel jacket,sintered iron core,or soft iron core.very cheap,but need serious machinery to make......which is of no account ........Incidentally,zinc can be drawn like brass,to make a tough tenacious ,non brittle materal,similar to drawn brass,and then annealed to make a soft pliable wire.Which is used for zinc spraying.

I missed yeah this, I saw this actually and considered using this as well. However it melts a bit hotter than lead and is lighter than bismuth. Which means I have to use more dense metal to get lead density.

Fundamentally the idea is to make lead and this bullet interchangeable. So, if you have or want to hunt with a non-lead bullet, you wouldn't have to adjust much because the bullets have equivalent density so their trajectories would be extremely similar. No re-zeroing or whatever required and also similar kinetic energy behind each shot.

--However the metalurgy of the bullet may change the bullet speeds a bit as it rubs against the barrel.

~ even more handy if you're the one handloading each round because you would be very consistent or should be anyway.


The ATF doesn’t do penetration tests to determine what is AP and what isn’t. They strictly follow the letter of the law.

Barnes use to make Brass solids for .338-.458 cal for use in African game for years until the ATF came back an said nope, “Someone makes a pistol that they can be shot from”

Likely it was a Thompson Center Contender or something similar.

Ah I see now, thanks for the heads up, in any case. It is a little confusing. I find the whole language of that law bizarre. For one it mentions nothing about possession is fine but then mentions stuff like importation ect. and manufacturing are bad. So I thought it best to look up what the atf means by manufacturing. I think the mean as if for commercial use. With intent to sell or you are IDK handing out these bullets around for testing in your corporation or something?

https://www.atf.gov/explosives/qa/when-manufacturer%E2%80%99s-license-required

Turns out it is ok if you have the proper FFL, lvl 6. Anyhow from what I see I really don't see how what I'm proposing is anything really different from the M855 it's a blunt tip rod. More than likely glued in the rear of the bullet meant to add density to the projectile but not harden it for penetrating body armor.

[Bama]

Research Update
So this is again running with the notion that I can match the ballistic profile and kinetic energy of a lead bullet but with using non-lead metals. The idea is to make lead and non bullets synonymous in terms of ran kinetic energy, ballistic profile.

#1) Tungsten-core, bismuth cast bullets (most seriously thought out idea I've had yet)

How they will be made.

https://www.rotometals.com/lead-free-bullet-casting-alloy-88-bismuth-12-tin/

88%/12% bismuth/tin will be act as the volume of the bullet. While tungsten is merely the weight.

They will be made just like casting a regular lead bullet. Then hollowed out via drill and a chunk of tungsten rod will be inserted and sealed in. The tungsten chunk should bump it up to lead density easy. the rod does not have to be very long.

All in all I think we are talking 1-2 dollars a bullet and the tungsten rod (2-5mm), if found should be 100% recoverable as it hard and any bismuth glued on will melt off of tungsten. It shouldn't also break apart a lot like lead or hollow points because of the differing pieces.

This will likely be the very first thing I try.

#2) Silver/platinum alloy rounds
This will be done more than likely, for the lols. But it more than likely will not be a hunting round I use if the Tungsten core bismuth rounds work. But essentially the will be made from silver 90/10 from fine materials. The rounds will also likely be milled.
30-40$ a round (308, 150 grain standard). I may do this in a smaller caliber to cut costs maybe 243.

Thoughts?

Another thing to consider is the added core. Is it possible that it could be considered as armor piercing and if so could be serious unneeded trouble.

[rbuck351]

Lead, tin, antimony are to easy for me to work with and cheap. I can make most of my cast boolits for less than 1 cent each. I'm not about to pay $1/$2 each for practice/target bullets. Also, I'm doing good to recover one out of ten bullets shot into animals. Anyway have fun, I am not interested as those prices are way over my pay grade.

[Valornor]

Unfortunately manufacturing isn’t just making things for commercial distribution. If that was the case we’d all be making our own SBR’s, Suppressors, and Machine guns. Strictly for personal use of course.

The ATF looks at manufacturing as assembly of the components. They some times go beyond just the assembly and will say “You had the intent and the ability.” even if you don’t put things together. That is why it’s a big legal no-no to have a AR-15 receiver with a third hole and all of the rest of the parts to make it a functional automatic.

In the case of AP rounds there isn’t as much precedence. However, they could still nail you for putting one together. Even if it’s for your own personal use.

Will they? I mean, the odds of an ATF agent being at the shooting range and picking up one of your rounds and asking how it was constructed.....Pretty slim to none...



Check out my website www.theballisticassistant.com

[mdi]

More than likely they were FMJ so that has some impact vs hollow points

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4624950/

it still affects blood lead levels.

https://www.rarediseasesjournal.com/articles/commentary-quadriparesis-caused-by-lead-poisoning-nine-years-after-a-gunshot-wound-with-retained-bullet-fragments-a-case-report.html

Some people have gotten sick over it. Sure variance in how lead gets metabolized and sometimes it is masked by other mild symptoms (it contributes to a lot motor impairments and heart problems) etc.

Today Doctors don't remove bullets unless their presence affects other things, like nerve or bleeding problems. Hopalong Cassidy always said "we gotta get that bullet out", but real doctors just leave them where they are, even plain lead bullets...

[TheJournier]

^ actually docs take their time with removing bullets. But a lot of times, if it doesn't pose an too much risk, they do take the bullet out. Medicine has changed a bit. Generally if the bullet is hard to access or the patient is recovering from something from something more life threatening. I.e. some sort of emergency repair. They leave it. But sometimes the bullet cause problems later on, I linked you something where someone did get lead poisoning from a gun shot. It does happen just not often (hence the whole "rare disease journal").

~ the key here is whether removing the fragments create undue risk. Risky surgery should be avoided when possible.

@Valornor

Ok so I did a fair bit of research. The one think that struck me was the use of the word "Core" (which has a differing definition, legally this bullet would be a Bismuth/Tungsten core that is clearly not designed for armor penetration but instead for improving kinetic delivery from a smaller bullet). Smaller bullets are generally better to shoot (it's just the fact that lightness means it can more easily effected by wind), a way to fix this is to make the bullet denser. Denser bullets have less surface area and are less effected by the wind.

-- >>> To compare M855 would be illegal if it weren't for a very specific wording.

a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

This states that the bullet must be entirely made of the controlled materials, that is tungsten, brass, and what not. What I'm proposing would be 80% by weight (more so by volume) bismuth (legal), and 20% tungsten (illegal). Much like the M855 is made of steel (illegal), and lead (legal).
for clarity I'm calling this an unjacketed Bismuth alloy/tungsten composite bullet.

- it is my belief that it is here I would have strong precedent in fighting the ATF if they decided to arrest or whatever over this (I would win, as they would have to prove intent to disobey the law). Or, I would at least get told to stop, which I would happily comply (as I don't have the resources to lobby for this).

however I strongly suspect that this will be swept under the water as I don't intend to sell these bullets these are for my personal use. I likely will have more lead bullets than I have these on hand (as these are more of a specialty round). This wouldn't really catch attention.

Anyhow I really appreciate your incite is good to take second look at laws, that's for sure.

I also updated the original posts a bit.

[JBinMN]

No one has mentioned "frangible bullets" in the posts so far. I looked...

It solves the issue of no lead toxicity, and has shown to be able to kill up to Elk sized animals,( even a zebra from what I understand) and the cost is not too bad as compared with some of the other proposals in this topic.

If someone lives in an area that does not allow lead to be used in ammo, then frangible bullets might be an option for them.