Should I dual purpose a 444 Marlin

[BamaNapper]

Here's my predicament. I have a Marlin 444S in the house, circa 1977, but I don't really need a 444. I already cast, load and shoot a fair amount of 44 mag, but not the 444. As deer season approaches I'm wanting a 44 mag lever. I took the 444 to the LGS this afternoon to ask about trading in and was surprised at the cost to make it happen. It's far cheaper to buy 100 brass and set up to load them.

My question is whether it's realistic to start reloading the 444 and try to find a recipe that would put the 444 in the area of the 44 mag. I would probably try and stay with maybe a 250 grain bullet running somewhere near 1400-1500 FPS.

I can see some of the downside of going this route. The rifle is heavier than a 44 lever would be, and a little longer overall. But this gives me a 444 should I ever move back to country with larger game. (Deer in southern AL tend to run in the 125-150 lb class) And it's an awfully large case to try to load light.

I'm surely not the first one to have this thought. Any insight? Any preferred powders for such a load? Yes, I already considered the two rifle solution.

[Mica_Hiebert]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?184813-444-Marlin-reduced-loads

[gwpercle]

Keep the 444 Marlin .
Load for it ...load them mild or load them heavy that's what reloading & boolits are all about .
Cast boolits in the 444 Marlin are a good match .
Dies and brass would be the best way to go in my mind .
Gary

[longbow]

Can't offer direct hands on experience but the 444 can be downloaded and the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook has several relatively light cast boolit loads for it.

I used to have (and wish I still did) a Marlin 1895 in .45-70 which is an even bigger case but I loaded it up and down from light collar button boolits to 405 gr. From plinker loads to thumper loads! No problem.

Using correct powder and load data you should have no trouble loading light if you want. That option also gives you the ability to load far beyond the .44 mag. too should the need or desire come up.

In fact there are a few relatively light loads listed here for cast boolits:

http://castpics.net/dpl/index.php/reloaders-reference/cast-bullet-data-lookup

type in 444.

And here:

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

Longbow

[GhostHawk]

I have A .444marlin in a single shot handi rifle. I started at 13 grains of Red Dot which was was ok. But after 10-12 shors I could feel a flinch coming on and quit. So I did some research for .44mag loads using lighter cast, 200 and 220 gr, 6.5 grains of Red Dot. Well I could shoot those all day long.
And they were just as accurate as the higher powered loads, just a bit more rainbow.

Since then I have acquired a pair of .44mag handi rifles. I shoot the same load in them.

It is your gun, your time, your money, your choice. But you might try loading some light loads in .444 brass.

And once reloading, the choice is yours, mild to wild, the .444 will do it all.

Granted .444 brass is not cheap, but swapping guns is not cheap either.

Generally speaking any moderate .44 mag load/powder/bullet combo should shoot well in the .444marlin. You have more case volume, so less pressure. Some powders will of course work better than others.

[Winger Ed.]

I'd keep it.

Load from mild to wild depending on what you'll be shooting at.

[gumbo333]

Think you could sell the 444 for $$$ if you really wanted a 44 mag lever. I think 444's are in demand. #3 son has a Henry 44 mag. a very nice and accurate lever rifle. Another spot for low power 444 data is: gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata. Very interesting site. Good luck.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I would keep the 444. I have a set of LEE Dies (3 die set) and a LEE Factory crimp die for the 444, though it is just nice not necessary. I have had decent accuracy with a 250 gr SWC (.429) and 17 grains Unique for a friendly pleasant load. I get 3" groups at 100 yrds. I have not done a lot of looking for lighter loads. I think a .430 or .431 might be better. A 200-240 grain Round Flatnose like the Cowboy Shooter's would also work well for most deer, I would start with 15 gr 4227 or maybe 18 gr 5744. For full power, I have used H322 under a RanchDog 265 gr GC or a 265 gr Leadheads GC and the 265 Hornady and 300 gr Speer. Full power cast accuracy is 1.5-2 MOA with jacketed a little better. My rifle is a Microgroove, a 444S, pistol grip, no safety, 22" barrel. I think you should have little trouble working up lighter loads that meet your needs. I have found accuracy seems easy in the 444 compared to a Marlin 1894 44 Mag and a Winchester 94 44 Mag. Bullet weight and power charge determine the level of recoil/power you get.

[Petander]

Thou Shalt Not Sell A Marlin Lever Gun.

[BamaNapper]

It looks like a unanimous verdict. The 444 stays. I thought the 44 option would have had some takers. But y'all are right, the almost unlimited range of options for the 444 does make it a logical choice. I have some Unique and a bottle of Trail Boss sitting around to start with. Time to order a set of dies and some brass.

I have not shot this rifle for probably 25 years. It used to tear my shoulder up and I passed it to my brother. He just recently returned it and the memories of getting beat up had me wanting to replace it.

You can't beat the knowledge and experience of y'all. I'll post my thoughts after I try some lighter loads. By the way, the loads mentioned all seem to be pistol powders. Is there a reason they are preferred over rifle powders?

[GhostHawk]

A not as position sensitive in light loads. IE 6.5 grains of Red Dot, and you don't need a filler. Drop below starting loads on slow rifle powder ie 4895 and you will.

B Thrifty, you can do essentially the same thing with 1/4 to 1/5 the amount of powder. Load 5 rounds vs one. A ;pound of Red Dot at 6.5 grains per load will load you over a thousand rounds. With slow rifle powders your looking at 140 rounds @ 50 grains per load.

C The old adage is " Go fast to go slow, go slow to go fast." Fast being pistol powders, slow being dedicated slower burning rifle powders.

With the .444 you don't need fast to be deadly. Just need to throw a big chunk of lead out there and let momentum work.

Personally I found that accuracy was easier to find with a few grains of Red Dot. You are not pushing the load hard, you can use softer alloys, And a little time on ladder tests will show you a number of accuracy nodes for a given caliber/gun.

Also you don't need a super good lube. Since I switched to shooting Red Dot pretty much exclusively I lube everything with 2 or 3 very light coats of BLL. Cast em, coat em, dry em, load em all in the same hour. For me that works. No equipment needed other than a plastic container with lid, a small household fan, and a cardboard flat to dry them on.

[Cast_outlaw]

I believe that the fast pistol powders hit closer to operating pressure levels and burn cleaner as a result and are less position sensitive for ingnition in a large case reducing the risk of a hang fire or SEE

[Gtek]

"Thou Shalt Not Sell A Marlin Lever Gun" Amen! The wonderful thing about big straight wall cases is the ability and the many options to go from mild to wild. Having an S at the end means a slow twist, light boolits will be your friend and as usual fit is important.

[MrWolf]

Thou Shalt Not Sell A Marlin Lever Gun.

This. Unless it is to me ;)

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Both Starline and Hornady make 444 brass. Starline.com, MidwayUSA, Grafs, others have brass. Enjoy, don't let the 444 beat you up, you are control of what it eats.

[trapper9260]

It looks like a unanimous verdict. The 444 stays. I thought the 44 option would have had some takers. But y'all are right, the almost unlimited range of options for the 444 does make it a logical choice. I have some Unique and a bottle of Trail Boss sitting around to start with. Time to order a set of dies and some brass.

I have not shot this rifle for probably 25 years. It used to tear my shoulder up and I passed it to my brother. He just recently returned it and the memories of getting beat up had me wanting to replace it.

You can't beat the knowledge and experience of y'all. I'll post my thoughts after I try some lighter loads. By the way, the loads mentioned all seem to be pistol powders. Is there a reason they are preferred over rifle powders?

If the rifle is hard on your shoulder. Do what I did with the ones that done that to me. I had my gunsmith put a recoil pad on it that will take care of the problem .also for what is stated for reduced loads. I have 3 guns that was beat my shoulder up and then had the gunsmith put the pads and now I can shoot them with out that problem any more.

[444ttd]

i have a tc encore with a 23" MGM barrel in 444 marlin. i hunt deer/black bear close up(100yards and under) with it. i use a 300gr fn gc(saeco) with 24.0gr of dacron/1.1gr of dacron that goes 1624fps. it is a sweet shooter and the recoil is nil to none. i use dacron because it shoots accurately(3/4 - 1" at 100 yards), no dacron it shoots well but it can be better(2" + at 100 yards). i used 16.0gr of 2400 and i went to 25.5gr of 2400. i don't have a pressure gauge but 25.5gr doesn't show the over pressure(brass doesn't stretch as much, .002 to .003". primers aren't cratered or backed out).

my 444 can go to mild(trail boss/unique) to wild(rel7/h4198). i find that mild does the trick to kill close cover deer/bear with. i use 10 lead and around 3/4 - 1 tin. i have only killed 3 deer with the 300gr, at 50+ yards buck went about 25-30 yards after the shot, 20-30 yards the doe(s) fell where they stood. the boolits went in and out(all behind the shoulder) so there is none to compare. just a nice clean exit wound(about 1"). i used a 275gr ranch dog, 280gr lfn and wfn gc that went around 2200-2300fps. the deer didn't like it, heck i don't like it. they created a maximum exit wound(3"+). didn't matter if it was behind the shoulder or shoulder shot, they did a maximum exit wound! i mean i was throwing shoulders and ribs away.

i haven't shot a 44 mag rifle, but i do have a ruger sbh in 44 mag. it shoots a 280gr wfn with 10.0gr of unique and a 44spl with a 250gr penta hp/7.5gr of unique.

[nhithaca]

"Having an S at the end means a slow twist, light boolits will be your friend and as usual fit is important"
Not sure where this info is coming from but all the 444 guns until the '90s used the slow twist regardless of the model designation. Some time before Remington took over, Marlin changed to a 1 turn in 20" like they have always used on the 1895's (new 336 based guns, not the original long frame 1895s). Correctly loaded hand loads will work fine in the slow twist barrels, even 300 grain bullets.

[pietro]

.

I once used a .444 handloaded with 265gr Hornady J-word boolits that were very effective on New England whitetails.

IME, heavier boolits can be loaded to have the knock-down power needed w/o beating up the shooter's shoulder - but, I agree with the others here that a good recoil pad is called for, even if it means shortening the buttstock for the correct length-of-pull.

Also IME, a 240gr boolit meant for a .44 mag doesn't have the internal strength to avoid terminal failure @ .444 load levels unless cat-sneeze loads for it are devised.



.

[bikerbeans]

S = sport. Suffix added in 1971 when marlin came out with a 22" barrel 444.

BB

[RickinTN]

I shoot a load of 9 grains of Red Dot in my 444 with a 275 grain gas checked bullet and it shoots very well. Plenty of data available for the 444 with 240 to 250 grain cast. I"ll agree that when the velocity rises so does the recoil. For this reason the heavier 444 rifle will be softer recoil than a comparable load in the lighter 44 magnum. 44 magnum load data would be a good place to start for 44 magnum equivalent loads in the 444.
Good luck!
Rick

[OverMax]

Put the Dixie BOOMER {444} way back in the closet in-behind the lady's section. Those old shoe boxes of her's is a dandy spot. As said prior by whomever: "Out of site / out of mind."
Enjoy the little 44 mag until wanting yet another lever deer caliber for Alabama's speed beef. Then. Do grab a close look at >Henry's "Long Ranger!" 243. Toting a 243 thru the bush you're good to go be it North Or South of the Mason Dixon.:razz:

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Like bikerbeans said the 'S' stands for Sporter and has NOTHING to do with rifling twist rate. The early 444 had a 24" barrel and a straight grip, the 444S has a pistol grip and a 22" barrel, the 444SS has a pistol grip, a 22" barrel, and the crossbolt safety, SS - Sporter Safety, most(all?) are microgroove. ALL 444's have a 1-38 twist that I know of, though rumor has the new ones will be faster. At 200 yards, my 444S will put 300 gr Speer UniCors into 3" or less. I do have a Limbsaver recoil pad installed on the cut-off/shortened buttstock (sacriledge horror horror). Recoil can be(is) unpleasant with 300gr bullets over 2000 fps. That is my elk load. Again, my 444 is much more accurate than my Marlin 1894 44 Mag with similar loads.

[jgt]

Well, I guess I'll jump in now that the water is so murky. Mostlyleverguns got the part about what the "S" stands for right. But, was mixed up on the twist rate. All marlin 44 magnum are 1/38 twist rate (microgrooves and ballards). Marlin 444's were 1/38 if they wore a microgroove barrel. In July of 1998, Marlin changed the twist rate and rifling from 1/38 microgroove to 1/20 ballard rifling. The new ones today are 1/20 ballard rifling.

There were all kind of myths and rumors about the microgroove barrels not shooting cast bullets. This was perpetrated by gun writers that did not know their subject and wrote their opinion based on false information. For example, bullets pushed too fast would "skip" the shallow microgroove rifling. Fact, in a slow twist, velocity is your friend. Next example, Microgroove barrels would not shoot cast bullets accurately. Fact, rifle barrels in 44 caliber had a larger spec for diameter than revolvers. To achieve accuracy one must slug the barrel to see what size bullet fits, then size the cast bullet .001 larger to get the most accurate fit. Next, ballard barrels had "deep cut" rifling compared to microgroove rifling. Fact, ballard barrels had six grooves, microgroove barrel had twelve and were slightly deeper than the ballard grooves. Rumor, you needed "hard cast" bullets to keep from leading the barrels. Fact, hard cast bullets were less likely to fit the barrels diameter correctly and would lead the bore due to gas cutting around the base. A softer gas checked bullet was a better choice.

Now to the OP's post. You have a 444S, therefore it wears a twelve groove microgroove barrel with a 1/38 twist rate. It will stabilize up to a 350 grain bullet. If you are an experienced reloader you may be able to go up to 375 grns, but you can shoot a 350 grain bullet for sure. Chances are good that you will want to size that bullet to .432 diameter, but you should slug the barrel to make certain. Also, the majority had tight spots under the roll marks and dovetails as well as barrel/receiver thread crush. The dovetails were broached rather than milled resulting in the tight spot under them. This can be addressed by fire lapping the barrel. Fire lapping is not chiseled in stone. Many of these guns will preform well without it, but if you want optimum accuracy I would highly recommend it.

For deer and bear a 240 grain bullet will do the job. A good mild but effective load could be something like 44.7 grns of IMR 4198 under a 240 grn bullet. Marlins have short throats, so, I would not recommend a Keith style bullet. The design of the driving band is such that it does not feed or chamber as well in a marlin. Bullets designed by J.D.Jones, Veril Smith, Ranch Dog, and others without the driving band shape used in the Keith design work better. A good mouse to moose design is the 290 LFN marketed by Beartooth Bullets.

In conclusion, I would encourage you to keep the Marlin you own in 444. It can preform well, deliver good accuracy, and you already have it in your lineup. If you decide to hunt boar, elk, or moose, you are already equipped and experienced with the gun beforehand.

Good luck with your decision.

[joatmon]

Do you have .44mag dies already? You could use your mag dies as long as loaded rounds chamber by neck sizing.
Good luck, Aaron

[rickt300]

Do you have .44mag dies already? You could use your mag dies as long as loaded rounds chamber by neck sizing.
Good luck, Aaron

Yes it is possible to use 44 mag dies but it is a pain in the **** to do so. The dies have to be set so high you only have a few threads in the press and even neck size they will size the open end of the case a bit too tight. Seating bullets is a pain also as the seating stem has to be set all the way out of the die once again being held by just a few threads. I really like my 444 and presently am loading the 300 gr. Nosler JHP at just under 1700 fps. Recoil is not bad and accuracy is very good. Powders used are IMR4227, 29.1 grains and Blue Dot at 21.0 grains and a standard CCI primer. At the same time I have a cast load that shoots very close to where the 300 grain load does using 16.0 grains of Blue Dot under the Lyman/Keith 429421 which weighs around 250 grains for 1500 fps. I only hunt feral hogs and deer and both bullets do nicely for this.

[quilbilly]

I have a 444 of similar age and have found that it loves and feeds a 255 gr. swc-pb nicely. The MV is about 1300 and is plenty accurate out to 100 yards and works well on both deer and smaller black bear (under 200#). Recoil is negligible and is a joy to shoot all day without tiring.

[Eddie Southgate]

Last .444 I saw for sale was priced at $1000.00 .

[Jeffrey]

Long story short: I downloaded 444 Marlin using Unique and 265gr Ranchdogs. From 10 to 15 grains Unique velocity tracked 100 fps for each grain Unique used (chronoed). My goal was to reproduce 44 magnum ballistics in a 444 Marlin single shot rifle for a friend's wife.

[BamaNapper]

I wish I could personally thank all of you who answered my post and talked me out of giving up the 444. I had to take a couple weeks away to welcome a new grandson into the world. I got the 444 dies 2 weeks ago and put together some rounds using 240 gr round nose over some Unique I had on the bench. I initially tried a 250 gr SWC, but feeding wasn't smooth so I pulled them and loaded the RN. Nothing special for bullets, just COWW from LEE molds. I know there are better bullets for the rifle, but I was trying to use what I already had cast for my 44 mag.

At 12 gr of Unique the recoil was minimal. I don't have a chrony and Santa is well aware of that shortcoming. I fired two shots at 50 yds, bumped the rear ramp up a notch, and put the next 3 in a 1" group about 1" low left of the bullseye. I had only put together 10 rounds, so I loaded the remaining 5 rounds and took aim at the 8" steel at 100 yds. I held on the top of the steel, 4" high of center. The guy behind the spotting scope said I hit pretty much center with the first 3 shots. I handed the rifle over to a young man who was watching and he easily hit the steel with the last 2 rounds. It was his first time trying a 'cowboy rifle'. The rifle shoots very nicely with the light loads, even with my old eyes and the original iron sights. I'll probably try 12-13 gr of Unique next weekend.

The next step is to find a bullet that will hit a little harder than the round nose, and shoot enough to get comfortable carrying the rifle for hunting season. Opener is 2 wks off. I hate to admit it but I'm considering a box of jacketed HPs I have on the bench. I'll have to ask around at the club to see if anyone is casting a 44 cal flat nose that might feed smoothly.

Thanks again to all of you for the advice and opinions. This thread is already in the ring binder on the bench for reference. There's a gun show next month and a jug of Red Dot is definitely on my list. Looking forward to trying it.

[Peregrine]

I'm just getting into 444 myself, i'm glad you kept it. Great round, one of my very favorites.

[jgt]

Red dot in a 444? I would recommend you buy some good reloading manuals with that money and spend some time reading them before going any further.

[RoyEllis]

Red dot in a 444? I would recommend you buy some good reloading manuals with that money and spend some time reading them before going any further.

Maybe you should take your own advice....Lyman Cast Manual #3 lists Red Dot in several .444 loads. And that's just one reloading manual it gets shown in.

[Peregrine]

Red dot in a 444? I would recommend you buy some good reloading manuals with that money and spend some time reading them before going any further.

That's all i'm using in it right now, and with exceptional results with next to no effort put into load development...like Roy said follow your own advice.
Also, even if you weren't sticking to published data Red Dot is easily one of the most versatile and meritorious powders for throwing cast boolits.

[jgt]

I stand corrected. The Lyman third edition does have it listed for bullets up to the 429244.