Trapdoor carbine bullet mould

[soonerfan66]

I have what my wife says is a "gun porn" addiction and well I did it again and found another Trapdoor carbine . The other one I have shoots the .459/405 Lee bullet ok . But when slugging the bore on the new one it shows .462-.463 best that I can tell . What would anyone suggest for a new bullet mould . I shot it with the .459 and it was not real good .

[13Echo]

I’d try Buffalo Arms. They have a really good selection of moulds and will help with advice if you call

[shortlegs]

You might try powder coating that boolit to increase dia. I did that to lee 340 and it works good in my Uberti Sharps and Trapdoor.

[brstevns]

Might have to Paper Patch for that Trapdoor

[M-Tecs]

Tom will make you whatever size you want. He makes outstanding molds. http://www.accuratemolds.com/

[soonerfan66]

I checked Accurate out and they did have a mold for $200 but are out , they make a great mold , most of the molds I have are Lees which are quite a bit cheaper . You get what you pay for but hope can find something cheaper . May have to go that route . As far as paper patch can you do that with a hollow base bullet , somebody else said try powder coating to increase the diameter . I have played with different loads , 2f , 3f and even tried some smokeless to see if it would help but just can't find the sweet spot . That's why thought about going with a bigger bullet .

[M-Tecs]

Single cavities from Accurate are $76 singles and $90.50 for a double.

[soonerfan66]

Sorry shortlegs missed your post . Were you having the same issues with your trapdoor ? I started out with 55gr and Lees 405gr and have tried going up and down with powder charge , compression . What was yours slugged out to ?

[soonerfan66]

M-tecs big thanks on the correction I don't know what I was looking at on their website but will be rechecking for sure .

[Bohica793]

Another vote for Tom at Accurate Molds. I run a couple of his molds for my Trapdoor and they work great.

[DonH]

You will have to have a bullet that fits, however you get there. There is a smidgeon of truth to the old adage that soft lead will "bump up to fit" with black powder but if you want accuracy the same "groove + .002" holds true.
As I see it the least expensive route would be a sizing die to size the bullet you have to correct diameter before paper patching. Next would be a correct mold from Accurate et al, UNLESS you find a mold close enough in diameter to beagle it.
Yes, you can PP hollow base. I have Paper Monies.

From my experience with black powder in .45-70 I am thinking you may need more than 55 grains of powder, unless your charge is filling the case to bullet base plus enough to give a bit of compression when the bullet is seated.
Good luck! I am envious of your project!

[Larry Gibson]

I have what my wife says is a "gun porn" addiction and well I did it again and found another Trapdoor carbine . The other one I have shoots the .459/405 Lee bullet ok . But when slugging the bore on the new one it shows .462-.463 best that I can tell . What would anyone suggest for a new bullet mould . I shot it with the .459 and it was not real good .

Are you sizing those Lee's? Is your mould the 459-405-HB?

My Lee mould with a 16-1 alloy (used with BP loads) drop at .462 - .464. With COWW + 2& mixed 50/50 with lead they also drop that large. I use those with smokeless powder loads. If your bullets drop that large just use them "as cast".

[soonerfan66]

I casted a few bullets with some tin mixed in and it did increase the diameter a bit but still not sure what I needed so the next thing will try is the powder coating method which can't do for a few days . If that don't get me there will get a Accurate mold . I sent them a email asking which one would be closest to what I need . Not quite sure what all the letters mean and want to be sure . Correct me if I am wrong if slugging the bore shows .462-.463 I will need about mold .464 ? . I see they got 405gr bullets but need to find out which one is hollow based . If anyone has ordered a mold from them like what I need please speak up .

[country gent]

If your bullet is small by a couple thousandths there is the process of lapping to enlarge it. You could take it up .002-.003 pretty easily. Just remark / ID it so you know. I would re stamp size under mould number. this way if you have 2 of the same you know at a glance which is which.

One other thing to try before lapping would be to post in swapping selling for some test bullets at the desired dia and try them first to see if they improve accuracy.This gives you an idea if its whats needed and also what size to lapp too.

[soonerfan66]

I have tried to track down someone who sells 405gr - .462-464 bullets but had no luck . Not sure about lapping the mold I got cause my first Trapdoor shoots it good and not sure if it would shoot the same afterwords then would need to replace it . The biggest reason I don't want to do it is I never have done anything like that . Sometimes you can second guess yourself to death .

[kootne]

The rifle should work fine with the undersize bullet, if it is the hollowbase version. It was designed that way. It does require using an alloy without any antimony so the lead will be more pliable. Black powder will expand it better but smokeless will also work. I have shot many thousands of rounds out of my 1884 and it consistently would put 8 or 9 of 10 into 5" at 200 yards. The other one or 2 would open groups to 6"-8". That is with issue sights,trigger and original .464 dia. bore. I would recommend reading Spence Wolf's book, " Loading Cartridges for the Original 45/70 Springfield". It is cheaper than buying another mold and you will learn a lot, although it is a somewhat tedious read.
I followed every instruction, including enlarging flash holes, Magnum primers, 2FG powder, bullet alloy, lube, correct dies, compression,etc.
In the nearly 30 years since first reading that book I have read a lot of "Poo-pahing" of processes he came up with but they were based on the original processes and the ODG's did some impressive shooting back in the day.
My favorite plinking load was the later black powder carbine load with the deep seated bullet. I found that it shot better if the case was left unsized. Groups ran 2"-3" at 100 yards and were very pleasant to shoot in an infantry rifle.
My mold is the NEI version, which I don't know if it is still made. The Lee is 405 HB is very similar, Spence Wolf was responsible for both of those companies coming out with those molds.
Good luck and good shooting,
Dennis

[RU shooter]

There's also the "beagling " method of shimming the mould blocks with some foil tape can easily pick up 2-3 thou in dia.

[Larry Gibson]

........ Correct me if I am wrong if slugging the bore shows .462-.463 I will need about mold .464 ? . I see they got 405gr bullets but need to find out which one is hollow based . If anyone has ordered a mold from them like what I need please speak up .........

No, you will not need .464" bullets if your TDs bore if your measurements is .462 - .463. If your bullets drop out of the mould at .462+ you are good to go. TDs have little to no throat so a larger bullet isn't needed. My bullets are only .0005 larger than the groove diameter of my TD. I also shoot another bullet that is .001 under groove diameter with very good accuracy and no leading.

The Lee 459-405-HB while called a hollow based bullet is not a true hollow base. Spence Wolf designed that bullet for Lee and it is a replica of the M1873 bullet. The hollow base is actually called a "dish" and is there only to control the weight of the bullet with a given external dimension. It is not there to function as a Mine' style HB.

I suggest you cast some bullets and hand lube them w/o sizing and test fire them. Are you using BP or smokeless loads?

You might also find my posts in this thread informative; http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?190999-My-Trapdoor-Loads-Technique-and-Equipment

[soonerfan66]

Read your older post Larry sounds like you really did your homework , I need to take some time and go back and reread it and write down some notes . The mold I have is the Lee .459/405gr hollow bottom , didn't size them , usually stay with black powder with older black powder firearm but I did try a smokeless load when it seemed everything else was failing , have tried with and without using a drop tube , was using pure lead but did add some tin to the mix close to 1-20 but haven't loaded any up yet , and size did increase a bit about .460 . I was going for 1-16 but when got done redid my math and seen was off a little , if I do make it 1-16 will the size increase some more?

[soonerfan66]

Whats your thoughts on hollow bottom or flat bottom ? You may of said something on this subject but all the info I have read lately my head is starting to spin .

[Joe S]

I shoot several trapdoors and a Sharps rifle which all require bullets at .462 diameter. Your best bet is to choose a bullet design that you like and order a mold from Accurate Molds for the specific diameter and alloy that you want to use. If Accurate does not have a mold design that you like, you can send a sample bullet or diagram to Tom and tell him the diameter you want and he can do it. I hope this helps!
Joe S

[soonerfan66]

I think that probably will try the powder coating method just to see , it's a pretty cheep experiment to do . I have already emailed Accurate Molds and asked them a few questions today and hopefully will placing a order after all this . They are not bad on their prices to . I need to wait and get some more input on if need to go with hollow bottom or flat bottom . They said that they don't make a hollow bottom bullet is the only hang up .

[Larry Gibson]

If you have a bullet that fits the throat/groove diameter then a flat base is best as the HB isn't needed. As previously mentioned the HB on the Lee bullet has a skirt way to thick to obturate at low Carbine level loads. The Army Ordnance people figure that back in the late 1870's and developed the 500 gr bullet (for the rifle load/70 gr BP) which has the mass to obturate if of correct alloy. The 45-55 Carbine load with the 405 gr bullet was still problematic. A bore scraper was issued with the sectional cleaning rod for use in scraping out the fouling and leading out of the carbines bores. With a proper fitting bullet, proper lube and proper alloy leading should not be an issue. With straight BP loads cleaning or wiping the bore every so often takes care of the fouling. I prefer a proper fitting bullet, proper lube, proper alloy and a duplex load (discussed in the previous mentioned thread). With the duplex load I have shot 100+ rounds in a day w/o cleaning or wiping and accuracy was maintained throughout.

[soonerfan66]

Making a little progress . Harbor Freight was out of powder coat and didn't have time to go anywhere else . So decided to try that beagling method . The bullets dropped at .463+ and lubed them with 50% bees wax from my own bee hives and 50% unsalted lard , 55gr 2ff , uncrimped , before loading nose of bullet was dipped in Udderly Smooth a trick was shown when shooting my Martini Henry. Shot at 50 yards and group was 3.75" about 6" above point of aim at 12:00 , greatly better then what was getting before .Hope to try 100yd after church Sunday . When I taped the mold with Aluminum tape on both sides and plan on removing one side of tape and see what bullets drop at . Still open to any thoughts on this .

[soonerfan66]

Tried to tape one side of mold but it was to much off . Having to retape the mold every so often would be ok for once in great while but gets old pretty quick if doing many bullets , so I "bit the bullet"! Sorry couldn't help myself and ordered a accurate mold . Thanks for everyones help .

[Freightman]

Try Teflon tape wrap it according to the twist.

[45workhorse]

There's also the "beagling " method of shimming the mould blocks with some foil tape can easily pick up 2-3 thou in dia.

This is my suggestion also.
Read your post about retaping, I never had to do that, mine did not move. About an 1/8 wide 1/4 long. It was on a Lee mold sorry, I can't remember, 30 or 45 cal. Double cavity. YMMV

[soonerfan66]

Wanted to give a update . The Accurate mold I ordered got here in about a week . Website said would be about 3 weeks so I was pretty happy about that . Made up some bullets and loaded them up but was not able to go try them out till today . Boy O boy what a difference . I am not the best shooter but the results from before and after are something for me . Only had a 50 yards to shoot but got 1 1/2 - 2 inch group . For me that's hole in one accuracy ! Before it was 6-8 group I think . Thanks everyone for your help and a big thanks to Accurate Molds .

[Wayne Smith]

Boolit fit is king. Proven once again.