Toz 22 Just bought one

[303Guy]

I've had a Toz 22 model 17 with a missing bolt for quite some time and this Toz came up for sale within my price range so I bought it. It should be delivered in the next day or two. It looks a lot like the model 17 but the seller say he can find no model on it. Anyway, it's a Toz and I have wanted one for some time. The 17 has a 14 inch twist which is unusual and a very clean and straight looking bore. I am hoping this new gun will be the same.

Any experiences out there with these guns?

[303Guy]

It arrived today. It's a model 17. The bore does not look as good as my bolt-less model 17 so maybe I'll use the bolt in that one and see how it shoots. I'll try the bolt in both. I'll report back when I get an opportunity to trial them.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

TOZ-17-01, made at Tula (Baikal), I have 4 of them! This is assuming that we're talking about the same animal -- a bolt action, magazine fed .22 rifle that says "USSR" on the receiver.

What happened is that I used to teach Hunter Education, needed some rifles for the live fire portion of the course, and had the opportunity to pick them up for around $65 each back in the late 1990s. They all looked just alike with about 98% of their bluing, but the stocks were finished with that shellac the Russians used on all their Mosin Nagant rifles which was peeling off here and there, mostly on the forends. They have Soviet military-type sights and sling swivels. The back of the receiver has a sheet metal stamped cap. Near as I can figure it's there to keep dirt out of the action, as it's not necessary for function, and must be twisted and pulled off to remove the bolt.

I refinished the worst looking stock with Tru Oil and it looks great. Then I mounted a cheap .22 scope on it and was very pleased to be shooting quarter-sized groups at 25 yards with inexpensive .22 ammo. I decided to make a project out of refinishing all of them, determining which was the most accurate, keep that one and sell the others, but never got back to it. The very first Hunter Ed class for which I provided the rifles taught me to just let the kids use them as single shot rifles, because we weren't 10 minutes into the first class when one of the students lost a magazine in the wild sweetpeas that grow along the bank of the creek where we were shooting. All the kids got to spend the next 20 minutes or so searching for the magazine until it was found. I thought to acquire some extra mags, and I think I did get one or two, but it's been so long ago now (20-22 years) that I can't remember if I was successful. I should think that today they'd be very hard to acquire, but maybe not where you are. I haven't seen one of the rifles for sale for a long time, and acquiring another bolt may be difficult.

They were only for sale here for a couple of months, so maybe there aren't that many kicking around. I would say that they're a very good rifle.
Then, shortly thereafter, the Romanian training rifles were imported, also good .22s at a good price.

[303Guy]

My bolt-less one only has Toz 17 USSR on it. It has no shroud or evidence of a shroud. This 'new' one seems identical - I don't have the other one with me for comparison. I'll get photos this weekend.

It's encouraging that you got good accuracy with one of yours. I have high hopes that one of mine will be good. If the bolt is interchangeable that is.

Well, I put the thing together and as old and shabby as it looks, I can see that this thing and me will play well together if it shoots straight. The iron sights are awesome and the balance and feel are just so that I can hold the gun on target very steady. The sight picture with these sights is outstanding. I dry fired it and the let-off is great! Without any oiling the action is rather smooth and the cock-on-closing is not even noticeable. And being a 303Guy, I rather like the cock-on-closing anyway but this one is just not noticeable. I'm really looking forward to testing this thing.

What strikes me about this rifle is the sights. These are absolutely perfect for my eyes! I have never focused on the front sight - always on the target, relying on the v or u-notch to 'focus' the front sight but with these sights, by focusing on the target, the front sight is in focus too! And my eyes are not the youngest in the world - but pretty good just the same.

[303Guy]

https://i.postimg.cc/C590k13w/20191009-170902-2.jpg (https://postimg.cc/p5Q3t2VS)
https://i.postimg.cc/1RdsLCfb/20191009-170926-2.jpg (https://postimg.cc/Z06GNLPL)
https://i.postimg.cc/bwxPSq3j/20191009-170827-2.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/fTXy5nB8/20191009-172440-2.jpg (https://postimg.cc/svj3D8FW)

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Very interesting, 303Guy. The differences are enough that I may have to dig one out of storage and take some photos. The similarities are also interesting. First, same flaky stock finish. Trigger guard looks the same. Rear sight looks about the same. Front sight is entirely different. On mine the barrel remains the same diameter to the muzzle and the front sight is like that of an SKS, a round peg inside a hoop. The magazine looks very different. The bolt is very different. Mine does not have a cocking knob. The back of the bolt ends about where you see the line where the cocking piece on your bolt joins the main bolt body, and has an internal cocking piece that comes out of the bolt body a very short distance when the bolt is closed. The back of the receiver has the aforementioned sheet metal cap that has a couple of dog legged fingers that twist over protrusions at the very rear of the receiver. I see something (unknown what) similar on your rifle just above the woodline at the rear of the receiver; and also, looking at a kind of dished area at the very rear of the receiver just above the bolt handle cut and some discoloration a bit farther forward that looks like it could be braze (?) I wonder if your rifle underwent an alteration and fitting of a slightly different bolt. I think that since mine is marked TOZ-17-01 that the 01 makes it a different model, but there are similarities.

[Driver man]

I have a TOZ 17 identical to yours that I have had for nearly 50 years. I have fired many thousands rounds thru it and it remains my most trusted .22. Accuracy is exceptional and still groups about 3/4 inch at 50 metres. Mine still has that smokey sharp smell when shouldered.

[303Guy]

The feel of this rifle is pretty good. It shoulders well and the balance seems just right - and those sights are awesome. A look through the bore is not encouraging but as I said, I have that other one with a mint bore. It's very encouraging to hear the positive feedback.

Der Gebirgsjager, this is what is inside that curious muzzle.

https://i.postimg.cc/MK75Sy0V/20191010-155218-3.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

I was wondering how I would fit a suppressor to this thing - no problem. I can fit an adaptor insert into the muzzle end thing. It won't be a big or heavy device, maybe 1½ to 2 inches long and skinny enough not to interfere with the sight picture.

[Texas by God]

Can you muzzle load a pencil and launch it with a blank? Kidding!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Der Gebirgsjager]

That's a very interesting muzzle. I'm uncertain what to think about it because of the external barrel profile at the muzzle (the bulge). Usually when one sees a recessed crown like that it means that the muzzle was bored to form a new crown and restore accuracy. But, perhaps it was made that way originally to prevent damage to the crown, or for another unknown reason. :?:

[skeettx]

Neat
Watching this thread

https://www.rebelgunworks.com.au/products/toz-17-complete-bolt-bolt056

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Click photos to enlarge.
249539 Overall photo.
249540249541 Photos of action area showing similarities and differences.
249542 Muzzle and front sight.
249543 Magazine.
249544 Military-style rear sight visible under scope.
249545 Bakelite buttplate says "Baikal".

After going through this thread again I can see that I'm losing a little mental acuity. You plainly stated that you have a TOZ 22 Model 17; and later that you also had a TOZ 17. So, I figured that you had the same rifle as I, but subsequent photos have shown several big differences. There are certainly enough similarities, especially the stocks, to show that they're from the same family, but distinctly different models. I always enjoy seeing new stuff and learning.......... I've never seen one like yours before. I hope that it shoots well for you, and that after you have it up and running you'll keep us up to date on how it performs. :D

DG

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Neat
Watching this thread

https://www.rebelgunworks.com.au/products/toz-17-complete-bolt-bolt056

I visited the website -- interesting! I'm thinking that the bolt offered for sale is closer to mine than 303Guy's. But, not being an authority on Russian .22s, I still wonder if perhaps the pull-to-cock knob on 303Guy's bolt is an add-on modification. One thing for certain -- Rebel Gun Works values the part highly! How interesting, also, that the Rebel name and flag are used by a business in Australia. Judging by the quantity and variety of weapons they're offering for sale perhaps things aren't quite as restrictive, or have loosened up some, as we have been led to believe; although it's very apparent that one needs to get a permit to buy one, with subsequent registration.

DG

[303Guy]

That's one handsome rifle there, Der Gebirgsjager!

The muzzle bulge with it's undercut, carries the fore-sight dovetail which is quite large. I suspect that the 'counterbore' serves two purposes, one being to relieve weight at the muzzle while providing for a chunky dovetail and the other to reduce muzzle blast (it one can call it 'blast').

My bolt looks to be original and is not too surprising since the safety works by rotating it. That pin is the safety as well the cocking piece guide.

https://i.postimg.cc/vm371FGb/20191009-172440-3-LI.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

The brass patch there is someone's attempt to block up a hole right on the edge of the bolt handle slot. You can see the damage to the steel without even removing all the excess brass. I'll file that down smooth and probably build up the damaged areas with epoxy steel to make it look better - if it shoots straight!

Your rifle's magazine arrangement is the same as mine.

https://i.postimg.cc/t4fZ8qR1/20191009-170847-2.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

I'm not free to take more photos of it even though it's lying near my feet (hidden away) - my little lady is in the room and she doesn't know she has bought it for me yet. [smilie=1:

In fact, I'll introduce it to her gradually and she won't even notice that there's one extra. :mrgreen:

In fact, if another one of these Ruskies turns up, I'll buy it! I mean, she'll buy it for me. 8-)

And this photo shows what the hole or cut out was for. It would lock the bolt while holding the firing pin off the case.

https://i.postimg.cc/02tbJp3R/532770719-2.jpg (https://postimg.cc/Whk2BJTX)

This is another Toz for sale on the internet. It looks to have a new magazine. The starting prise is quite high so I'll see whether I'll bid on it.

[Driver man]

The knob on the bolt is standard.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

So, if I'm getting this correctly, .303 and Driver, you both have TOZ 17 rifles, which are very similar to a TOZ 22 rifle? And, when you load the chamber and close the bolt, what happens? Does it self cock like my TOZ-17-01, or do you have to pull back on the knob to cock it? Then, to put it on safety you turn the knob (counter clockwise?). Sort of an a la Mosin Nagant safety system, striker blocked by engagement with rear of receiver. ? .

DG

[303Guy]

The 'Toz 22' should have been 'Toz .22'. My bad - I always call a 22rf rifle a 22 or 22 rifle. At the time of posting the model number was unknown as the "Toz 17 USSR" on the receiver is covered by the scope rail and so the seller did not know what model it was. Only when it arrived did I confirm that it was a model 17.

It does indeed cock on closing, ie self cock like yours does. The safety works by pulling the knob back a little further and turning it. It should have a cut out in the locking lug/bolt handle track that locks the bold closed with the firing pin off the case rim. Someone bronze welded mine up for some reason. I'm wondering whether it was self engaging and causing an annoyance. I'll be leaving it as is since I never carry a round in the chamber anyway - well, if I do like in a stalk, I keep the bolt open. This is a feature of cock on closing that I like - open bolt carry is impossible to accidently close, making the gun primed to fire by accident! The downside is that dirt and debris can get in and jamb the thing but that's better than having the gun going off. I never use a safety by the way.

I had been thinking I would leave the stock as is but seeing yours, I now want to refinish it. Tru-Oil you say? I'm sure I can get some in New Zealand. Did you remove all the old shellac first? It looks like you did. I'm wondering if it would sort of keep it's old look if I just Tru-oiled over it as it is?

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Well, I guess were clarified now on model differences. The different model designations being TOZ-17 and TOZ-17-01. Thanks again for posting about your acquisition, I've never seen one before.

On the stock refinishing, personally I would completely sand the old finish off and down to bare wood ending with about a 320 grit. Some folks, depending on the type of wood, will then "whisker" the stock by wiping it with a wet cloth and letting it dry. This will raise the grain, and it's sanded off again with the 320 grit paper. Often, because birch wood tends to be dense, I'll skip the whiskering process. Then the Birchwood Casey Tru-Oil is applied in thin coats, perhaps 6 -10 coats depending on the wood and how it is progressing. I just dip my finger in the bottle and rub it on the stock in small circular motions so as to wipe it across and into any pores so as to fill them, and make each finger dip go as far as possible to keep it thin. After each second coat you'll want to sand it back with some 400 grit paper or 0000 (4-0) steel wool to even it out, get rid of any drips, and get rid of any dust motes that may have settled into the finish while it was damp. Wipe the resulting dust off with a moist cloth or tack cloth and start over. When you like the results, you're finished. You'll likely find the sanded stock to be very nearly white in color, typical of the birch the Russians often used in their military stocks.because the Unless you are an admirer of blond stocks you'll want to stain the wood before applying the Tru-Oil. Birch usually won't accept oil based or water based wood stains very well, so I use brown leather dye, usually Lincoln brand. The bottle has a dauber in it on a wire attached to the lid, and you can apply it with that, but also wipe it with a rag as you go along to get an even color. Try a little bit of whatever dye you use in some out of sight location like the barrel channel to see what it looks like when it dries. There is a wide variety of shades of color just within the color of "brown". Some will appear reddish, even cordovan on wood. The Russians finished many of their rifles, apparently these included, with a shellac that contained color. I came very close once on a Mosin-Nagant using a varnish stain. I would advise against just slapping some Tru-Oil over the existing remaining original finish. Tru-Oil is lightly amber colored, but almost clear, and any remaining original finish, imperfections, or dirt will show through. Kind of an all or nothing situation, I think.

There are variations on how some apply Tru-Oil, and of course there are other ways to finish stocks. Good luck with the project, if you decide to do it, and a photo or two of the finished gun would be nice. Also, some target photos and reports.

[303Guy]

Thanks for that, Der Gebirgsjager. I new about the dampening trick when sanding stocks. My late uncle gunsmith told me about that one and I've done one or two London Oil finishes after polishing stocks that way. Comes out great but what an effort!

I've now got the other Toz 17 in my hands. I have transferred the bolt and it fits fine. I now know why bubba brazed up that notch! What it does is lock the bolt on opening, meaning that one has to cock the the striker before the bolt can be cycled! What a pain. I'll be making a piece that I can press and secure into the notch on this one. This one has a scope rail - interesting.

Are my photo postings coming out too large? The fit my screen just fine.

https://i.postimg.cc/6p13YtcT/20191013-183802-2.jpg (https://postimg.cc/DSLnzVtK)
https://i.postimg.cc/6pH0c2FR/20191013-183815-2.jpg (https://postimg.cc/MnQVKT6K)
https://i.postimg.cc/Dfd154XZ/20191013-183836-2.jpg (https://postimg.cc/XXqZYJxS)
https://i.postimg.cc/NFJMSttN/20191013-183851-2.jpg (https://postimg.cc/FkSNk27c)

[303Guy]

Well, I've just fired both guns with the shared bolt and both work just fine (apart from that painful having to first cock the one). This new one's bore looks good. Now to plan a trip to the range. That might be a while though.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Your photos are just fine for size. I wish mine were bigger. Dem Rooskies sure come up with some different designs, don't they? Since they seem to be training rifles, I guess they wanted yours to be automatically on safe before every shot and to require an additional step to fire it. It is interesting how that was circumvented on your first specimen. My first .22, a Stevens 15-A received at age 12, required the bolt to be cocked by pulling on the cocking knob before each shot, but otherwise had no safety. It was either cocked and ready to fire, or uncocked and safe. There was more than one critter I was getting ready to pop that was alerted by the sound of the cocking knob being pulled. I hope that you're able to find another bolt and have two complete rifles.
249635
Click to enlarge.

Oh-- I was wondering, what kind (brand) of ammo do you have available "down under", and what does it cost? As recently as 5 years ago we were having a severe .22 ammo scarcity, but it has been plentiful for a couple of years now and is available in almost any brand made anywhere, including Mexico and Europe. Of course the domestic products are the most reasonably priced, Federal, Remington, Winchester, CCI, etc. Prices are almost down to pre-shortage levels when there's a sale. A distributor named MidwayUSA recently sent me an e-mail ad for Remington Thunderbolt ammo, a brick of 500, for $14.99; but I see the same thing in a local chain store not on sale for almost $25.00. Just wondering what your situation is?

DG

[303Guy]

We never had much of a shortage of ammo. I can't what ammo brands we have but there is quite a range - or was when I last looked. I just bought Federal subsonic hollow nose. I do have the odd other brand, including a packet of 'yellow jackets'. I don't remember prices - I'll have to check.

I have a few Lithgow single shots that work like yours. They seem to have safety that works by turning the cocking knob. One or two work while one or two have some issue. I must have another look at them. I bought them as project guns to shorten and fit suppressors. I've only done one so far for my niece's son. It turned out to be a neat little rifle. Accurate and nicely balanced. These things are made using 'ordinance steel'. Tough stuff, difficult to cut with a hacksaw.

https://i.postimg.cc/gJbwPYSv/Caleb_s_Rifle_002.jpg (https://postimg.cc/B8NZTGG6)

It took many hours of rubbing boiled linseed oil onto that stock to get that finish.

[303Guy]

I'm seeing that we have quite a selection of ammo here in New Zealand. A wide range of CCI ammo and also Winchester and Federal, some Eley, Lapua, Cobra, Browning and Remington.

Prices vary from about NZ$70 to NZ$125 per 500 round brick. CCI subsonic bricks are NZ$96. I didn't see any match ammo which used to be available.

[Petander]

My first rifle was a Toz-8,very much like the one posted here but a single shot. -77 that was.

It came with "explosive" Russian varmint ammo,the bullets had a drop of mercury inside them... absolutely devastating and completely crazy.

I sure wouldn"t mind still having both. The rifle was a good shooter.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

That's a neat looking rifle, 303Guy.

It sounds like you've got a good spread of .22 ammo brands. I'm not up on what the exchange rate is for NZ vs. US dollars are, but it sounds expensive.

Petander -- I've never heard of explosive Russian ammo before. I doubt if the environmentalists here would allow spraying mercury around for very long. Come to think about it....I think there was some available for a few years, but I haven't seen it on the market for a long time, and I don't know how it worked. The same company also distributed .22 tracer ammo, and I believe I've still got some of that.

[303Guy]

That drop of mercury if I have my facts right, will dissolve into the lead, making it very soft.

The exchange rate is 1 US $ to 1.56 NZ $ at this moment.

Thinking about this Toz - it has a 1 in 14 twist. Some time back there was available 60gr subsonic ammo that also very quiet in long barreled guns. I would like to try this stuff in my rifle. I did hear reports that it didn't always work in 16 twist rifles.

That rifle was a Christmas gis to my 10 year old great nephew. He learned to shoot on my Remington which was a bit big for him. That little gun was perfect for him, and accurate too. He was deadly with it. I should try him on my Toz. He's now a tall lanky teenager.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

If you have Mexican Aguila ammo available, it can be had in some very low powered loads including priming only. No louder than my Benjamin pellet rifle.

[Petander]

Yeah the whole mercury thing was long time ago. Never thought about dissolving or construction in the first place...don't know about long term storage. But they were around,almost common,go figure...

So that's the ammo the rifle came with anyway, "explosive" needed no special buying permit or anything. At that time there was a separate paperwork/ permit for buying any ammo. Permit was caliber specific but had no other restrictions.

Gast forward to 2019:

That Aquila 60 grain looks very interesting. I'm just about to "add to basket".

[Texas by God]

The Aguila Colibris sound like a finger snap. The Super Colibris are a little more toot so they wont stick in rifle barrels( Colibris can) I tried a box of the 60gr SSS and they did not stabilize in any of the .22 rifles and pistols I tried it in.
Oh- and the mercury bullets remind me of "Day of the Jackal"....

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[303Guy]

Aquila 60 grain is the one. I've heard it shot and is pretty quiet. At the distance fired there didn't seem to be any issues but I have heard of stability issues. The Toz 17 has a 14 inch twist rate (as I measured) so I was thinking this stuff might be handy to try if it's still available in my parts.

[steve urquell]

CCI Quiet ammo is a great and accurate quiet subsonic ammo. Same 750ish velocity as CB caps. Will not cycle my autos.

My FIL and I were shooting Aguila Colibris at a target backed with 3/4" maple trailer scuff board and getting ricochets straight back--he got hit in the chest gently lol.

Super Colibris are 590fps and very quiet.

Compared to suppressed rifle/pistol noise:
Colibri: as quiet
Super Colibri, CCI quiet: 2x louder in rifle, 3x in pistol
CCI std vel, Fed Suppressor: 3X louder rifle, 4x pistol.

My go-to suppressor ammo is Fed American Eagle suppressor 45 gr plated. Very accurate and clean.

[303Guy]

I've just bought another Toz. Haven't picked it up yet. Heck - I haven't even tried the previous one I got! :roll: I don't know what model this one is but it looks the same.

[303Guy]

So My 'new' Toz turns out to be a model 17

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Nice of your Mrs. to buy it for you! :wink:

[303Guy]

Yeah, normally I would have just snuck it in - she wouldn't notice there was another one but this time I had to go fetch it on the weekend. I didn't know what to do but in a stroke of genius, I told her she bought it for me for Valentine's day. [smilie=1: She was happy with that. :mrgreen:

[303Guy]

It turns out I have been making an error in the model numbers of these three rifles - they are Toz 17's. The last one being a Toz 17 01, which is a later model. It's bolt is different but fits and works in 17's and the magazine and magazine well is plastic. The mag is missing. Anyway, they are Tula made Ruskies.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

As stated much earlier, mine is a TOZ 17-01, but there is nothing plastic on it. :?:
Sort of surprising that the 17-01 bolt will work properly in earlier models.
Clever folks, those Tula people.