Very old CVA rifle

[megasupermagnum]

My dad brought me an old CVA rifle today that really surprised me. The reason he brought it over is that about 15 years ago my uncle had bought it, loaded it, and went out to hunt. We all know the story, the rifle wouldn't go off. He and my dad had tried many caps, and not being knowledgeable about muzzleloaders, had tried to remove the breech plug. They ended up breaking the hook off of the plug. It sat in the corner until today. I sprayed some PB blaster down, screwed the ball puller in, and it turned out to be one of the easiest balls I've ever pulled. Hardly any effort at all. The powder, or what is left of it, is a mushy mess that I have yet to clean out.

Now here is what gets me. The gun is very nice, I was blown away when I read Connecticut Valley Arms on the barrel, especially when it was followed in bold MADE in USA. A CVA made in USA? A quick search shows this is true, and likely a Douglas barrel. Despite the mistreatment, the rifling is actually looking very good. I'd about guarantee the breech area is pitted where the powder is, but beyond that is in great condition. The only thing this rifle needs is a breech plug, and a gunsmith to replace it. I am hoping someone can point me in the right direction.

[LAGS]

Good luck with your latest project.
I am sure you can find someone to install a new breech plug up in your area.
Or if you can't find a new plug, make one for you.

[OverMax]

Any competent gunsmith can do.
Although consider calling a place of business like Track of the Wolf to see if a OEM or substitute breech plug is available?

[megasupermagnum]

I see TOTW has a number of breech plugs, but it's looking like I would have to get a tang to go with them. This CVA is a percussion gun, with a "barrel" for lack of a better word, for the nipple and flash channel. The original hook breech is just a plug, and in TOTW the flintlock style's look more like what I need than the percussion style. This plug and tang look very close to the originals. https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/662/1/PLUG-EF-18-3

I realize that one is a 1 1/8" flat octagon, but the shape is there. If nobody knows what size plug is in this CVA, it looks like I'll have to have a gunsmith try and get it out for me first.

[indian joe]

I see TOTW has a number of breech plugs, but it's looking like I would have to get a tang to go with them. This CVA is a percussion gun, with a "barrel" for lack of a better word, for the nipple and flash channel. The original hook breech is just a plug, and in TOTW the flintlock style's look more like what I need than the percussion style. This plug and tang look very close to the originals. https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/662/1/PLUG-EF-18-3

I realize that one is a 1 1/8" flat octagon, but the shape is there. If nobody knows what size plug is in this CVA, it looks like I'll have to have a gunsmith try and get it out for me first.

Everyone will be horrified at this but
They busted the hook off because they didnt know how a CVA goes together - the breech plug will not have moved - the nipple drum on CVA goes through the end of the breech plug and locks the whole thing up - if was mine I would weld a chunk of metal back on where they busted it off and recut the hook part so it locks back in the tang - the breech plug and nipple drum shuld be safe and sound they just boogered the hook off it - Mig weld it back and ya good to go.

Waiting for the howls of derision and oh no's to arrive

[megasupermagnum]

Everyone will be horrified at this but
They busted the hook off because they didnt know how a CVA goes together - the breech plug will not have moved - the nipple drum on CVA goes through the end of the breech plug and locks the whole thing up - if was mine I would weld a chunk of metal back on where they busted it off and recut the hook part so it locks back in the tang - the breech plug and nipple drum shuld be safe and sound they just boogered the hook off it - Mig weld it back and ya good to go.

Waiting for the howls of derision and oh no's to arrive

You know, I'll ask if he has the hook. If he does, that is a genius idea! Of course I'll make sure the drum (is that the proper term?) is not ruined, but to me it looks like the breech plug never even moved.

[Gtek]

I am in the Indian Joe tribe! Remove tang from rifle then weld correct piece on barrel and fit/machine better than it came new. Think I would Tig before Mig if available.

[LAGS]

I too am with Indian Joe on this.
It may be faster than trying to find a new plug.
But getting the old plug out without the tab may be a slight problem without distroying the plug.

[megasupermagnum]

No go on the old hook. I'll have to make one from scratch. I do have access to a tig welder, which is what I'll use. I can also use the Bridgeport. I'll try and make one that is close, but a little too tight first, and weld that on.

I hope this turns out as well as it sounds in my head. I don't want to turn this into a big project, and otherwise the rifle is in great shape.

[sharps4590]

Unless the rifle had been fired there's no reason the breech area should be pitted, unless the powder charge got soaked somehow. BP isn't corrosive until after it's fired.

[megasupermagnum]

Unless the rifle had been fired there's no reason the breech area should be pitted, unless the powder charge got soaked somehow. BP isn't corrosive until after it's fired.

There is no way to know if it had been fired. Nobody seems to remember anything about it. Just as likely my uncle strolled out of the shop 15 years ago, and went hunting with it the next day. It didn't fire, and I'm not sure why. There was powder in it, but it's condition is unknown. Now it is just a slop, as I had sprayed a bunch of PB blaster in. Fingers crossed for a pristine bore.

[indian joe]

You know, I'll ask if he has the hook. If he does, that is a genius idea! Of course I'll make sure the drum (is that the proper term?) is not ruined, but to me it looks like the breech plug never even moved.

thanks guys ! -thought that suggetion would draw a heap of criticism from the sky is falling brigade:x

TIG or MIG -- I dunno the difference - still stick welder meself and reckon I could do it that way - thing is here the breech plug and nipple drum will be whole and hearty and better left undisturbed - all thats required is a good enough hook to hold the barrel down safe

[LAGS]

I think you have a good point about not removing the breech plug and just welding a new hook on it.
The only draw back I see would be that the breech plug will then Never removable.
But , really , how often is it truely needed to be pulled out.
I only did it to have barrels Re-bored.

But down the road , if you decide to have the barrel Re-bored, then the barrel can be shortened and a new breech plug installed.
My suggestion , stick with the cheapest and quickest fix for right now.

[megasupermagnum]

I would only be welding a hook on the plug itself. The plug would still be removable.

[LAGS]

That should work if you stay away from the edge of the threads on the plug and barrel.
I just don't have that much confidence in my welding.
But most others are way better welders than I am.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello megasupermagnum,

Indian Joe is correct, see illustration from the 1980 CVA Catalog.
I've seen these listed on Ebay from time to time, nothing at present.
It sounds like you have one of the original Mountain Rifles, good shooters.
I believe the barrels were made in the U.S.A.,
but the rest came from Spain, still good shooters with a 1/66 twist.
Personally I'd remove the Drum and the remainder of the breech plug before repair.

Hope this helps, AntiqueSledMan.

[indian joe]

Hello megasupermagnum,

Indian Joe is correct, see illustration from the 1980 CVA Catalog.
I've seen these listed on Ebay from time to time, nothing at present.
It sounds like you have one of the original Mountain Rifles, good shooters.
I believe the barrels were made in the U.S.A.,
but the rest came from Spain, still good shooters with a 1/66 twist.
Personally I'd remove the Drum and the remainder of the breech plug before repair.

Hope this helps, AntiqueSledMan.

How ya gonna get the plug out? hook is gone off it - nuthin to get a hold on ta turn it - gotta be ultra precise puttin it back together or the nipple drum threads booger up - this one place where I reckon what looks ike a rough repair might turn out the best option -----its either that or a new plug + gunsmith fees - versus a tig weld and some filing .

There is another simple option starin us in the face here --- weld the tang to the back end of the barrel - that would be a real simple Tig or Mig job - then gotta take the tang screw out to remove the barrel for cleaning ------so what?????

I reckon thats an even better plan and easier too!!!

[bob208]

as shown in the picture you have to remove the drum first. then unscrew the breach plug. if it just the hook broke off I have silver sobered them back on. just don't use the wrench on it to reinstall. they are simple plug and easy to make a new one if needed.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello Joe,

Not seeing the picture of the damaged hook, I'd still remove it.
Even if I had to drill it out & build a new plug.
My biggest fear of welding it in place is it would never come out.

That's my opinion, AntiqueSledMan.

[Doubletap]

Removing the drum and or breechplug on a CVA is a big no-no. Because of the way they are manufactured (see the excellent pics above) when you put the drum back in chances are it will not index with the flash channel in the proper position for the flash to make it to the powder charge. The drums are pretty soft steel and the threads are easily pushed when unscrewing/installing them. CVA drilled the flash channel after they assembled the drum and breechplug in the barrel, so it didn't matter for them. You also can't just install a conventional drum in them because the empty cavity in the breechplug will grab a patch when you clean. Been there done that about 40 years ago.
If the barrel isn't pitted up just in front of the breechplug, TIG an extension on the back of the plug and file it into the hook you need to fit the tang.
BTW, the earlier CVA's marked "US" also had US made locks. The Spanish locks were stamped "Spain" inside, the U.S. ones are unmarked. The stock should also be maple. The factory stock shaping leaves a lot to be desired, but they can be reshaped into decent looking stocks. Dump the mystery material fore end tip, and pour yourself a pewter one, solder on a real rib, inlet the thimbles and solder them on like a real rifle, and they look and shoot pretty darn good! Even the Spanish made barrels shoot well, and the Spanish locks spark decently too. My favorite squirrel rifle uses one, cuz it was laying around the shop when I was stocking it up. 35 years later it still sparks well. Have fun and turn that relic back into a shooter again.

[LAGS]

It is the OP's decision on which way he is going to repair his rifle.
But we have given him many good suggestions and options.
There are over 100 ways to Skin A Cat.
But it is His Time , Money and Finished product that "He" has to worry about.
Lets let him Run with his options, and see where he ends up.
If it was MY rifle, I would have to have it in my hands to look at it and work up my final plan.

[725]

I had (still have) such a CVA. When I got it for $25, the barrel looked OK but the chamber area was pitted. I could just feel the corroded surface in the chamber with a cleaning jag. Had the barrel cut short from the chamber end, refitted a new breech plug, re-finished the stock, polished the brass and promptly went out and shot the biggest buck I've ever gotten. The thing (even though it's short) shoots like a house-a-fire. As noted above, there's a lot of ways to skin a cat. Go forth and have some fun.

[longbow]

I have the same gun (or a CVA with same breechplug design anyway) bought as a kit in the 1980's. Not sure where my barrel was made but same design as yours. I wanted to convert to flintlock as could be done with the old Thompson Center muzzleloaders. lock plates are the same so I figured I could make an insert to replace the nipple drum and drill a flash hole in it. I got hold of CVA many yearas ago when they still supplied traditional style muzzleloaders to ask and their response was that the breech plug is not removable at all. I took it that the breech plug was press fit to the barrel then nipple drum pressed in or maybe threaded in from their description. Obviously the breech plug is screwed in from posted pic but it may be am interference fit so not removable for that reason. Regardless they said it is not removable at all.

If you are bent on getting it out I am sure it could be drilled then bored until reaching the threads then removed. Once the breech plug is out I am sure the threads could be recut to "standard" thread form and a new breech plug installed. Unless you have a lathe or have access to a lathe though I suspect it would cost more than a new barrel in the end.

The welding idea seems like a reasonable approach and just live with a non-removable breech plug.

Longbow

[waksupi]

I would cut the breech end back, get rid of the patent breech, and start over.

[indian joe]

The welding idea seems like a reasonable approach and just live with a non-removable breech plug.

Longbow

easy enough to live with it - I just keep wonderin why anybody would want to pull the breech plug from a perfectly serviceable barrel???? totally mystified by that I am. I have half a dozen sidelock mloaders I've been shooting since the 1980's - the urge to debreech any of them has eluded me entirely.

[Gtek]

The wonderful thing about octagon barrels is they can USUALLY/SOMETIMES land well in lathe chucks and the sides are flat for a mill vise.

[beemer]

I have taken several apart and have a plug out of a bad barrel so I took a good look at it. I don't think it's really a bad system unless you need to repair it. The biggest problem is installing and timing the drum.

I am sort of with Waksupi on this one. Even then you will have to make sure the drum lines up with the lock and maybe move the barrel loop and ramrod. It might be more trouble than it's worth, especially if you have to hire it done.

Personally I would have a new plug and drum installed and strip all the parts and make a new stock more to my liking but I realize that's not an option for everyone.

Dave

[Buzzard II]

Everyone will be horrified at this but
They busted the hook off because they didnt know how a CVA goes together - the breech plug will not have moved - the nipple drum on CVA goes through the end of the breech plug and locks the whole thing up - if was mine I would weld a chunk of metal back on where they busted it off and recut the hook part so it locks back in the tang - the breech plug and nipple drum shuld be safe and sound they just boogered the hook off it - Mig weld it back and ya good to go.

Waiting for the howls of derision and oh no's to arrive

I'm also with indian joe. TIG a new piece on and shape it to fit.

[indian joe]

Hello Joe,

Not seeing the picture of the damaged hook, I'd still remove it.
Even if I had to drill it out & build a new plug.
My biggest fear of welding it in place is it would never come out.

That's my opinion, AntiqueSledMan.

Fear it would never come out ?? I think that would be good ! why do we want the breech plug to come out ? I dont get that ..

However if there was a fear about welding it - mine would be maybe we loosen the threads --an old trick we use for getting frozen bolts and broken studs out whilst repairing machinery is to weld something (a smaller diameter bolt maybe) onto the busted stud - the quick heat from welding doesnt do much but the contraction of the metal afterward shrinks the frozen stud enough to turn it out esily using the stub welded onto it - done this one lots of times -

[LAGS]

I am with Joe on his fix if you want to possibly remove the breech plug then weld a new hook on to it.
I worked as a heavy equipment mechanic for ten years , and welding a smaller stud onto a broken bolt was the way we removed them.
You just have to be really careful and not weld the plug to the hole it is in.
I used to remove bolts by welding studs on them , but my welding skills are not what they use to be.
But I am sure the OP knows a good welder if he is not confidant in his abilities in either removing the plug or just welding on a new hook.

[Fly]

I.m for easy (wink) . If you have excess to a Tig, a mill go for it.

Fly

[indian joe]

I.m for easy (wink) . If you have excess to a Tig, a mill go for it.

Fly

yup!!!

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello Joe,

Not knowing what material the plug is would be another concern. In the field, if we didn't know what the material was, we didn't weld it. Some materials would crystalize, I sure wouldn't want something like this that close to my eyes, but of course I won't. Also I'm not so sure that a licensed gunsmith would weld on it.

Again just my opinion, the owner needs to make the call.
AntiqueSledMan.

[cold1]

I broke mine off my CVA the same, fir the same reason. Mine did not have the hook but a flattened machined ball on tte end of the plug. I used a torch and brazing rod to build up a new blob of metal and then used files to turn the blood into the shape I needed.

Several hundred rounds later and it still shoots well.

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=AntiqueSledMan;4740379]Hello Joe,

Not knowing what material the plug is would be another concern. In the field, if we didn't know what the material was, we didn't weld it. Some materials would crystalize, I sure wouldn't want something like this that close to my eyes, but of course I won't. Also I'm not so sure that a licensed gunsmith would weld on it.

Correct - the gunsmith would likely take out the drum and throw it, drill and easy out the plug and its trashed, proly cut two inches off the barrel to get rid of the old chamber and metric thread, make and fit a new breech plug, new nipple drum, he needs to do all that exactly same as original otherwise the drum dont fit the lock, then he needs to recut the wedge pin dovetail and relocate that, shorten the under rib, if its gonna shoot in competition maybe the rear sight needs moved forward - thats another dovetail and plug the old one - none of this is bad or wrong except for when he presents his bill and the owner figures he coulda bought a new gun for less.

Ya could tie that barrel down in the stock as is with a two dollar hoseclamp or twenty cents worth of ducktape an it wuld be perfectly safe to shoot for the rest of our lives.

[trebor44]

249363 What my CVA Mountain Rifle breech area looks like. Yeah it is a shooter. These can be found for about $300 in good condition but this one is mint and marked "Made in the USA". I thought about turning it into a 'blanket' gun but it would be easier to do with one of my Lyman GPs since the barrels are a simple swap. There is an article on cutting down muzzle loader barrels by the inch to check accuracy and it was surprising how short they could be before accuracy suffered.

[bob208]

for such a simple fix. I have seen some real hard ways to get there cut the barrel off !! weld the breach plug in! you will not be able to get it lined back up if you do take it apart !! some real bubba work.

I just had the breach plug out of my flintlock had to move the touch hole. have had to take others out to fresh out or reline.

[waksupi]

for such a simple fix. I have seen some real hard ways to get there cut the barrel off !! weld the breach plug in! you will not be able to get it lined back up if you do take it apart !! some real bubba work.

I just had the breach plug out of my flintlock had to move the touch hole. have had to take others out to fresh out or reline.

I don't understand why people have trouble re-indexing breech plugs. I've done dozens with no problem. Just make an index mark before removing a plug,

[beemer]

I have removed the plug on several CVA rifles and put them back using an index mark, the threads for the drum need to line back up. The only problem with removing the CVA is the small hook doesn't leave a lot of area for a wrench, you just need to be careful and stop if things don't work out.

Dave

[KCSO]

If the drum and nipple have no flats for turning out the drum you will need special tools to do it the CVA way. The breech was screwed in and the drum screwed into the barrel and through the breech plug and THEN the whole works was drilled for the powder chamber. I am redoing one of these right now and I can PM pictured on Thursday when I get the whole works apart. These are a pita to work on and I for one whould rather have an old style drum set up, but they are about bullet proof, you just can't work on them at home.

[megasupermagnum]

249363 What my CVA Mountain Rifle breech area looks like. Yeah it is a shooter. These can be found for about $300 in good condition but this one is mint and marked "Made in the USA". I thought about turning it into a 'blanket' gun but it would be easier to do with one of my Lyman GPs since the barrels are a simple swap. There is an article on cutting down muzzle loader barrels by the inch to check accuracy and it was surprising how short they could be before accuracy suffered.

This is the exact rifle. There is no shortage of barrel on this one, as my range rod can't reach all the way to the bottom, it must be a 32" or 34" barrel. As for the breech plug. Even if I was to remove it, I would have to weld something onto it. I might as well just weld a new hook on. I probably will not get around to it for a while, but I do not want to turn this into an ordeal. I'd like to make it shoot again, and give it back to my uncle for Christmas. Thanks for all the help.

[indian joe]

This is the exact rifle. There is no shortage of barrel on this one, as my range rod can't reach all the way to the bottom, it must be a 32" or 34" barrel. As for the breech plug. Even if I was to remove it, I would have to weld something onto it. I might as well just weld a new hook on. I probably will not get around to it for a while, but I do not want to turn this into an ordeal. I'd like to make it shoot again, and give it back to my uncle for Christmas. Thanks for all the help.

Mate - if you put that rifle in front of me as is for 300 I would knock you over in the rush to give you the money - CVA mountain Rifle Douglas barrel !!!!!!!

[longbow]

indian joe:

No argument from me on not removing the breech plug. I've never removed mine... from my current CVA or any other muzzleloader I've had over the years. Of course my current CVA is one of those that is not supposed to be removable anyway.

Its a nice feature to be able to remove it if you ever have to but that seems like a pretty big if. I stand my barrel up in a bucket of warm soapy water and pump water up and down using the jag and tight patch. Works just fine.

For the most part I can't think of why a breech plug would need to be removed except because it can... if it can. I suppose if a guy wanted to re-cut or "fresh" rifling a removable breech plug would be a bonus, but otherwise?

I think mine was just called a CVA Hawken when I bought the kit in the 1980's and of course it is just a generic lookalike not an exact copy of a Hawken by any means. Mine looks like what they later called the St. Louis Hawken. Looks like the only obvious difference to the mountain rifle is one barrel wedge instead of two. Maybe barrel length too?

Not sure where it was made but after reading this thread I'll dig it out of the gun safe and check on it. Maybe it has a Douglas barrel. It shoots pretty well though I'd be embarrassed to show Waksupi my kit building skills... or lack of them anyway! It isn't horrible but it isn't classy either. But it does shoot pretty well.

Longbow

[fiberoptik]

But it does shoot well.

I like beauty, but I take function over it anytime!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[indian joe]

indian joe:

No argument from me on not removing the breech plug. I've never removed mine... from my current CVA or any other muzzleloader I've had over the years. Of course my current CVA is one of those that is not supposed to be removable anyway.

Its a nice feature to be able to remove it if you ever have to but that seems like a pretty big if. I stand my barrel up in a bucket of warm soapy water and pump water up and down using the jag and tight patch. Works just fine.

For the most part I can't think of why a breech plug would need to be removed except because it can... if it can. I suppose if a guy wanted to re-cut or "fresh" rifling a removable breech plug would be a bonus, but otherwise?

I think mine was just called a CVA Hawken when I bought the kit in the 1980's and of course it is just a generic lookalike not an exact copy of a Hawken by any means. Mine looks like what they later called the St. Louis Hawken. Looks like the only obvious difference to the mountain rifle is one barrel wedge instead of two. Maybe barrel length too?

Not sure where it was made but after reading this thread I'll dig it out of the gun safe and check on it. Maybe it has a Douglas barrel. It shoots pretty well though I'd be embarrassed to show Waksupi my kit building skills... or lack of them anyway! It isn't horrible but it isn't classy either. But it does shoot pretty well.

Longbow

yeah four inches more barrel on the Mountain Rifle (32 vs 28) plus the double wedge they were a classy piece in the day - I have a couple 54 hawken barrels I bought off a dealer cheap (50 bucks) great shooters - never saw a (Spanish) CVA barrel from that 80's era that wouldnt shoot with the best custom stuff - Getz, Douglas etc. a magazine article "The CVA Big Bore Mountain Rifle" was what got me into muzzle loading but I never owned one. Those CVA's were easy to load for - very un fussy .

[Gtek]

Has been a while since tang seen on one of these, could not take it anymore and dug one out also a good excuse for wiping and inspecting others. My Mountain example is an early Spanish barrel model, two screw box, rock lock. Tang landed at .400" width ID, hook hit .385" width. Kind of kills the .375" plate idea but would be hard to land perfect anyway. Maybe a call to Deer Creek Products and ask for pooch/rusted barrel or possible bad plug piece laying around for donor hook piece. Lathe- Turn plug forward of hook to dowel, shallow clean face if needed and shallow center drill barrel plug, clock and weld with correct depth to light file fit for tight seat in tang. Plug rear is recessed in from rear line of barrel, plenty of room to hide a nice weld. I am still in the weld and fit camp, if you do not have talented welder, lathe buddies then a couple bills would not stop me from salvage due to rifle/uncle. Nice these seem to run three to five bills, I understand these are what they are and not golden hand crafted Americana but most I have been around do shoot pretty well.