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View Full Version : Custom Moulds.....not for me, I don't think.



BruceB
12-12-2005, 04:37 AM
Definition, first.

I don't consider a "group buy" project to be a custom mould, in the truest sense of the term. The group buy is generally a project which has input from at least a few casters, and sometimes dozens. It's a community effort, and the community lives with the results. As of late, it seems the group buy system has been hitting a few rough spots, but that shouldn't affect the validity of the concept.

The "custom mould" I refer to is one whose design comes from the thinking of an individual, and Mountain Moulds is the best example of the type that I know about.

I'm well aware that many here have had successful results from inputing their pet set of dimensions, and having them cut in whatever mould material they choose. GOOD for them! In passing, has anyone wondered about how many turkeys have been cut, which no one wants to claim? I'd bet there are a few, but that's not proving anything....sometimes many attempts must be made to get the specs done up right. "Success has many fathers; failure is an orphan."

I took a couple runs at trial sets of dimensions on the MM website and quickly lost interest. Since my computer "skills" don't even extend as far as posting photos, this should be no surprise to anyone!

For my relatively-limited needs, it seems that I can be quite content trundling along with my assortment of Lyman, RCBS, Lee, NEI, Saeco and LBT moulds, and in all honesty I can find virtually anything I require either in new production or older out-of-print moulds from various sources. About the only mould I really lack right now is a good design for the .404 Jeffery, and I've discovered a suitable one in the NEI 422-390, which I hope to order soon.

One thing that gives me a wee bit of worry about the one-off custom designs is the distinct possiblity that someone will come up with a design that is SO MUCH BETTER than anything currently existing, that it could revolutionize cast bullet performance in its caliber, or even many calibers. What a tragedy, if such a design sank into obscurity and never saw daylight on all our benches.

Does Dan maintain a file of designs already cut for future reference, or do they all sink into a swamp of "intellectual property", becoming the private reserve of whoever designed them? Does Dan have a file of "standard" custom designs, which could be suitably altered for each customer's wishes? (Yeah, it's a dumb way to express it, "standard-custom", but it's late and I'm tired.)

Not trying to be 'grinchy' here, by any means, just saying that for ME, the custom concept simply doesn't turn my crank. I have given it a lot of thought, too, and for some reason the usual spark of "something new" doesn't light up in my imagination.

Comments?

Bass Ackward
12-12-2005, 07:35 AM
Definition, first.

I don't consider a "group buy" project to be a custom mould, in the truest sense of the term.

One thing that gives me a wee bit of worry about the one-off custom designs is the distinct possiblity that someone will come up with a design that is SO MUCH BETTER than anything currently existing, that it could revolutionoze cast bullet performance in its caliber, or even many calibers. What a tragedy, if such a design sank into obscurity and never saw daylight on all our benches.

Not trying to be 'grinchy' here, by any means, just saying that for ME, the custom concept simply doesn't turn my crank. I have given it a lot of thought, too, and for some reason the usual spark of "something new" doesn't light up in my imagination.

Comments?


Bruce,

I would tell you that I have designed and sometimes copied several designs. And there have been failures of different types. But I have never had an outright "turkey" as you ask. The failures most common for me are cutting light bullets for caliber for a too new rifle where the throat dimentions later change and it no longer fits as it was designed. I have had designs that have forced me to change lubes because I either designed the bullet to carry too much or not enough for the purpose of one lube that I designed it. But so far that is it.

My theory is that if you fit a bullet to that one rifle, you can't do much wrong unless you go over board on some principal. Too wide a meplat for one is probably the most common. But even it will fly straight if you move the paper close enough.

With a factory mold you get a design that works in many guns generically. This may be fast for a few or low velocity for others. It may be with ultra fast powders for one guy and mid range to slow for another. The beauty of fitting a bullet or designing a custom mold is that it will work in the range you want it to. With fast powders at low velocity or with slow powders at high velocity and just about anywhere in between. I am not trying to say it won't have areas where it does much worse than others, but less finicky it will be.

Fitting is the only way you can break the age old myth that a cast bullet is most accurate at 1500-1800 fps. Because lead deadens vibration, if the bullet design is kept light for caliber to best handle pressure, and it is fit up properly, you can push jacketed velocities at better accuracy levels than jacketed. Especially over a 20 shot span where jacketed fouls a barrel. And it's fun to watch the expression on others faces when you do it.

Bass Ackward
12-12-2005, 07:35 AM
Duplicate message.

NVcurmudgeon
12-12-2005, 09:03 AM
I have moulds from H&G, LEE, Lyman, NEI, Ohaus, and RCBS in my modest collection. All cast good boolits. One Lyman 311291 is a factory "turkey," casting a way undersize nose and a definite "fat .30" base. Even that one delivers adequate accuracy in some rifles and some loads. Considering that the Lyman 311291 seems to be different in every example I've seen, and still manages to produce useable boolits, I have no complaint against Lyman. Besides, this mould is from the era of grossly oversize castings and brutal H&I
dies that "sized" by scraping off one side. Again, in some rifles and with some loads, this accumulation of moulds shoots so well that the limiting factor is sights and/or geezer eyes. I am quite satisfied with factory moulds.
Still, there is the itch for something special. I did buy a custom mould from a maker not mentioned above. While it was reasonably accurate, it did have a dimensional defect that made it a PITA to work with. More successful was group buy from this board, actually Shooters. Buckshot's custom Lee 8mm is an excellent mould, easy to cast with, and producing very uniform boolits of excellent accuracy. Another group buy, not Buckshots's, broke down into what appeared to be a cyber quarrel. A second attempt to put together the
same group buy seemed to degenerate into apathy. For me, I have decided that custom moulds and group buys are not worth the aggravation when I can buy moulds off the shelf that will do anything I want.

Char-Gar
12-12-2005, 09:12 AM
Bruce..when Dan was starting Mountain Molds, he was much more flexible. I had a mold made, by just emailing some changes I wanted in a friends mold. These days, you have to furnish full specs on his program or no mold.

carpetman
12-12-2005, 11:29 AM
BruceB---I have had many of the same thoughts---If I have a pair of boots made for my foot,they are "custom made",but if they were made for someone elses foot,that wouldn't be custom made. The idea of a custom made Lee mold to me is like chrome plating a road grader or customizing a Yugo. Some folks like wildcats for example,but that's not for me,if something standard made won't fit a situation,I don't know what that would be. Maybe they should be called guinea pig molds where if the design does turn out good,then have one of the real mold makers make you one. Turkey---100% for sure. The .177 was such in my books. It tumbled. Hector down in Mexico posted good results by shooting it backwards. I tried that and did not get accuracy and very poor penetration. The concept was contrary to my needs to begin with. With it's heavy weight it was to carry farther and penetrate deeper. How much penetration do I need on sparrows? I really wish I had one that would stop just as it crossed out of my back yard.

StarMetal
12-12-2005, 11:44 AM
carpetman

Dany you, you made me think..rare huh? When I was a teenager I had a Sheridan pellet rifle. Well there was this cat I wanted to dispatch that came into our yard. Well I thought even at that young age that the regular pellet wouldn't penetrate that cat good enough and I wanted a clean kill. Well I was down in the basement thinking what I could make a pellet from. My Dad was an electrician and he had lot of that heavy gauge copper ground wire laying around. I chucked a piece in the drill (my lathe kinda) and machined a few down into some real fine looking boattailed spitzers that Sierra would have been proud of. I made them slightly smaller then the groove and bore diameter so that I could tin them with some solder and they would engrave the rifling. Boy did they ever shoot good and yes, I did harvest that cat. Here's what you made me think of though. You mentioned that alot of the you on the board that got one of those special pellet moulds found out they didn't stabilize. I wonder if a lead coated copper pellet would? Being it's ligther then the lead one. Of course we'd be dealing with another problem, lenght, that is if you want a heavy pellet or do we want a really aerodynamic pellet. A copper pellet like I made just described might do that.

Joe

The Nyack Kid
12-12-2005, 02:01 PM
Custom molds , they work for me .
I am the sort of person who looks at most things and i say to myself "that is really nice BUT i would like it better if this or that were done just so " . when it comes to guns i am the say way . i put differant sights on , modify the throats , work over the trigger . add swing swivals i what the barrel longer or shorter , I wish that the stock was shaped differant . I look at boolit molds the same way . with a costom mold done right (and this IS a biggen) there is less that i can nit-pick over . also there are some major gaps in the factory mold line up . 9.3 molds come to mind , some are nice like my NEI 9.3 mold though i think that the boolit design isn't the best for all perposes . i oftain think of the factory mold lineup as "the jack of all trades, master of none"
just my $0.02

9.3X62AL
12-12-2005, 02:24 PM
Bruce et al--

Early in the game, MM had the "Eirik" 9.3mm mold. Small tweaks--mostly bearing length--were adjusted, and the result was the cast boolit I use in the CZ. Same story with the Short Fat Thirty plain base he made up for the 32-20 revolver for me--that one was a "boiler-plate" of Dan's.

I try to get molds that will service more than one rifle or handgun, and to date the gaps in my tool crib are for those whose castings will be "one gun wonders"--the 44-40 and 45 rifle at this point in time.

Buckshot
12-13-2005, 02:00 AM
...........A lot of the custom moulds aren't really custom, as the term custom might really be used. Several of the special runs done by Lee recently have been merely a slightly warmed over NLA or current design. The 311407 Modified and the Lee C325-175R is another. Then you have the 311440 and 311041, C303-113F, and I know a couple more.

Heck, for my K-31 I'd love to have a direct copy of the Lee C309-160RF in a 6 banger. Nothing really special so far as a 30 cal, but it fits and shoots well in the K31. I just hate one at a time :D

.............Buckshot

BABore
12-13-2005, 05:03 PM
I'm most definitely a Noob bullet caster, yet I just finished breaking in my first mould from Dan. After a quite lengthy process, I'm a proud owner of a 475 cal. 400 gr LFNGC 2-cavity steel mould. It is one heavy mother but I can deal with that.

Dan worked with me almost to his regret I'm sure. I measured and slugged and measured again on his insistance. All of the chamber throat sizes, lengths, bore size, etc. are burned into my grey stuff. Dan quickly responded to all of my stupid questions and concerns. Once I had a fairly warm and fuzzy I bounced things off of members here and other casters of 480/475 bullets. Learned a lot of good stuff.

I ended up with a bullet that casts at 725 to 750 F from straight WW's. They fill out perfectly and drop from the mould freely. I ordered the mould to drop bullets at 0.001 over my throat diameter and thats exactly what I got. Sized to 0.478 they have to be pushed the last 1/8" into the 0.4781 throats. My initial workup loads all shot into less than 3/4" groups at 25 yards. That's what I call a custom mould. My 450 Marlin is next. I'll be doing a Cerrosafe casting of the chamber/throat/bore area to get things as perfect as possible. Probably be asking some questions here soon on that.

To date I've only acquired a half dozen off the shelf moulds. Of them, only a piece of crap Lee 475-325 2-cavity mould will drop a WW bullet that's almost big enough. I won't even mention all of the other problems it had with it. Of my Lyman moulds only a pair of 2-cavity 358156 moulds drop good sized bullets and that was due to a tight bore. Nope, I'll be a custom mould guy. You get what you pay for and if you mess up it's nobodies fault but your own.

Maven
12-13-2005, 05:23 PM
To reverse Curmudgeon's comment re off-the-shelf molds, what do you do when they don't fit your rifle (or pissola) and you want to use CB's? As I wrote in an earlier post, Lee, Lyman and even Cramer/Saeco's (Buckshot has my undersized RG-4, which he is attempting to enlarge.) exhibit this tendency too frequently for my taste. Curmudge's #311291 is one such example, Buckshot's Lyman 8mm Mau. bore-rider, pictured in the Mil Rifles section, is another, my own #311291, RG-4, and Lee C-309180R are others.

Two other examples should suffice. The C.E. Harris-designed SKS bullet produced by both Lee & Lyman was too small (.312") to fit the bbl. of my newType 56 SKS. However, Veral Smith/LBT would cut such a mold to fit a particular rifle and so I had him do so. That CB, sized to .314", will shoot into 2 m.o.a. or less, in spite of a miserable trigger and open sights. (The rifle is "as issued.") Example #2 is my 7.65 x 53 Mod. 1909 Arg. Mau., which shot Ly. #314299 pretty well, but always threw one several inches out of group. Btw, it didn't ride the bore either while the SKS bullet wouldn't even group at all. If I could have found an off-the-shelf design (I wanted a Loverin, but Ly. #311467 was too small.) that fitted the Argie, I'd have purchased it in an instant. However, Jim Allison of Cast Bullet Enterprises (NSW, Australia), was willing to cut such a mold and it truly made a difference. My Mod. 1909 will put almost all shots into 1" @ 50 yd., but I did add Lyman receiver sight and thanks to KCSO, change the inverted V front sight to one from a Swedish Mau.

I guess I have to say that I'd prefer to buy an existing design from the major producers, but when their offerings won't fill the bill, what's the alternative?

Bass Ackward
12-13-2005, 06:09 PM
There is one more reason that I didn't mention for a custom cast bullet. And this is purely ego.

If you enjoy using a cast bullet to hunt with or the feeling of shooting small groups at high velocity, then your experience can be enhanced if you use a design you concocted yourself. When someone says that they tried cast using a 311brand X and couldn't achieve that level of performance, then you can tell them they didn't have "The BruceB Special".

David R
12-13-2005, 09:32 PM
I have bought a few "custom" molds as in our group buys. The first shoots OK in everything, Even my 1891 Arg. It shoots spactacular in nothing. So I call it a Plinker. I have many boolits to burn up and can pour them at a pretty good clip.

I have a BD45CM that shoots in nothing I own unless I load the crap out of it. This mold is for sale. 311407 came along and I love it, so does my 1917 enfield.

Some Day I will have a 31141 "custom". I can only hope it shoots, but will never know until it shows up at my door and I try it.

MY soupcan mold off the shelf from LEE drops them too darn big and are a real pain to size. When I size em to .308, there isn't much grease groove left.

I have Lyman's Latest 311644 that only goes sideways from my Enfield. Really nice looking bore rider, but the nose is just too small.

For me it seems to be a crap shoot. Factory molds or custom molds (as in our group buy) Might work in MY guns or might not.

Never bought a Mountain mold or other "custom" YET......

David

The Nyack Kid
12-13-2005, 10:14 PM
There is one more reason that I didn't mention for a custom cast bullet. And this is purely ego.

If you enjoy using a cast bullet to hunt with or the feeling of shooting small groups at high velocity, then your experience can be enhanced if you use a design you concocted yourself. When someone says that they tried cast using a 311brand X and couldn't achieve that level of performance, then you can tell them they didn't have "The BruceB Special".

BA must be talking about me. yah my ego has been pretty big lately .
it's really something to have a custom design work and work good .

MGySgt
12-14-2005, 09:45 PM
Custom Molds? -

Where can you buy an off the shelf mold that will drop at .461 in WW to shoot in an IAB Sharps Repro with a grove size of 4595?

What mold comes in 433+ in WW to size to .432 to 'Fit the throats' of a 44mag?

I have designed a few turkey's from MM and paid the price and learned from the experience. My latest MM is a 280 gr pb 44 fashioned after the Keith Style that drops at .434 in WW. 15 gr of 2400 gives 1,000 fps and shoots 1 in at 25 out of a 626 classic with a scope.
But what it was made for was a SS Ruger SBH 4 5/8's with .432 throats, .430 groove and no cast would shoot below 3 in for 5 rounds. That bullet will put 25 rounds in sub 2 with that same load and it is only 20 fps slower then the 629! And it is not at max load yet.

Yes - I will desgin and buy more 'Custom' molds that fit what ever gun I need them for. Some will work and some won't.

One thing about this board is that you don't have to go it alone - Bass Ackward and few few others like Buckshot and felix have given guidance on different questions that I have asked over time about weight and metplate size to help eliminate a few of my potential mistakes.

Just this Dump Old Marine's thoughts.

Drew

Greg5278
12-15-2005, 08:15 PM
I like most custom molds, because the calibers that I need are not produced. You can't always get what you want. I have been asking others for their advice, before designing any molds. I made my own blocks, and had then bored. I understand that the Group purchase Lee molds are decent. But how reasonable is the price of a mold you cannot use? True custom molds are expensive, but you can get exactly what you need. You should always deal with someone who doesn't mind answering your questions.

I like Mountain-molds, and own several, but had a falling out with Dan over 2 molds. They were commited to, and never made, the cost was refunded. I then started making my own blocks. I have Steve Fotou at www.victorymolds.com bore them. He makes full custom molds., and will do whatever you need.

I have designed 1 real turkey of a mold, and it was a complete error on my part. Dan at MM produced the mold exactly as designed, so I'm stuck with it. The nose is too long to crimp.

Just my $.02

Greg S