Gunbroker deal gone bad

[LynC2]

A couple of months ago I won the bid for a Browning 40-65 rifle on Gunbroker. The seller had a very good rating, was a BPCR shooter that was previously a very active shooter that had shot the Nationals at Raton several times, but due to age related health issues had to stop shooting. He rates the rifle at 95% plus and the rifle includes the sights, sight inserts and a set of dies. He says he has a Jones mold for sale also which he says had previously held the 200 yd group record for caliber. I agree to buy it for a premium price as not having to work up a new load sounded great. Sounds good so far.
I request my regular FFL to send a copy of their license to him. A couple of days later I hear they refuse to send one to an individual as previously had someone steal, alter it and cause numerous problems. OK, I find another one that will handle it.
Then the fun starts. When I receive the rifle I find the bluing on the muzzle almost completely worn off, the underside of the barrels bluing is well worn from shooting off of cross sticks and the kicker is that below the front sight block that was installed are 4 more holes that some hack had wrongly drilled and tapped. One set was noticeably off center too. Then there was a scratch on the side of the receiver to boot. I think I would be generous to rate it at 85%.
To top it off the box he sent the mold, loading dies and sight inserts in was sent to the gunshop instead of me. The PO shows it was delivered, but they insist they never got it. The seller never insured it even though I paid far more for shipping and insurance than necessary. I feel it was his responsibility to insure it and to reimburse me for the missing items. He believes he is under no obligation since he did ship them. What is your opinion?

[nun2kute]

What does GB say about all that ? I think they need full disclosure too

[BrentD]

Only the seller can initiate any recovery, search or reimbursement. Thus, the seller is responsible for delivery. That is pretty well established and accepted practice.

[smithnframe]

Let the buyer beware! I don't trust buying firearms online.

[MrWolf]

I got burned also. Not even the same caliber as described. They back the seller, not the buyer. I won't use them again.

[TNsailorman]

GunBroker is a one way outfit. They make money off the seller and not the buyer, so they side with the seller. When you buy from a seller on GB, be prepared to take whatever deal it turns out to be; there will be little help from GB to you no matter what the dealer promised and what he delivered. My experience any, james

[jtarms45]

Buyer beware is exactly right. I don't like buying much of anything online, especially firearms. Sometimes the deals are just too tempting. I have been lucky/fortunate so far.

[LynC2]

This transaction certainly cured me from buying from an individual there again. Am I wrong in believing he needs to reimburse me for the items I never recieved since he failed to insure them even though I paid for insurance or do you feel he is right in refusing to since he did ship them?

[BrentD]

Like I said, if you did not get them, then he owes you. Pretty simple really.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I normally wouldn't post an opinion to a question like this, but you asked for opinions.

In my experience, an old guy who has that type of experience with Shooting completions and is describing his prized competition rifle for selling purposes, is likely to NOT consider the flaws you describe as flaws.

The Box of accessories:
Sounds like a lack of communication. You need to be sure he understood, that you want it insured and where to ship it. Sadly, now all you can do, is try to get the seller to start a lost parcel report with USPS ...and your FFL will need to get involved with that also.

[Yellowhouse]

There are lots of doozies on GB and any other auction. I've had pretty good luck but try to avoid sellers that can't or won't supply clear closeup pictures and sufficient detail. I don't care what it is. If I can't see it I don't bid! Lots of PT Barnums out there.

[TNsailorman]

I still buy from GB on occasion but I do ask some questions before making up my mind and if I don't get the right answers or the seller seems to not answer the question completely, I pass. If you order anything online, sooner or later you are going to run into one of those people who has little or no business ethics. They are out there and if you are going to buy online, you can expect to run into one. The big question seems to be "Did you specifically specify and pay for shipping". If not, you are at his mercy about repayment. The sender is the only one who can track a lost package by the post office, at least that was what I was told by a postal employee. If I remember right, 30 days is the soonest they will track a lost package and 90 days for a USPSMO. Also without a tracking number, they have almost no way to track. If your package was sent without tracking, you will be a very lucky man if they could find it. Under those circumstances, it could be anywhere, including one of you neighbors house. If the post office says it was delivered, it is somewhere and somebody has it. Since the sender did not insure the mold, you probably just out a mold. Good luck but add this transaction to your cautions on your next online purchase. I have been had a couple of times myself but I don't let this type of experience sour me on life and people. I still believe that the majority of people are basically honest. james

[jednorris]

Gunbroker offers a place to rate the sellers profile. You can do a writeup and describe your problems and dis satisfaction. Checking the sellers history can help or kill a sale.

[dverna]

I had many transactions on GB and only got a raw deal on one. I can live with that.

Do not blame GB for a mess like this.

[M-Tecs]

I have purchased over 70 firearms on GunBroker. Zero issues but you do need to protect yourself. Sellers with little or no feedback or bad reviews should be suspect.

First read the details. Shipping cost doesn't indicate anything about insurance. Insurance specifics must be written in the original add or requested in writing with the sellers agreement to insure. It's also your responsibility to save copies of all correspondence.

Payment. Even with the extra cost always pay with a credit card. Credit cards are relatively easy to file a claim with. If not a credit card use USPS Money Orders. That gives you the option of filling a mail fraud claim. Mail fraud is a felony.

On the FFL issue that was on your end. Normally FFL's don't have an issue with sending a copy to another FFL but some do when requesting to send it to an non FFL individual. Most private sellers specify that the receiving FFL needs to accept shipments from non FFL sellers or there will be an additional charge. Normally that is $25 dollars.

On the rating of firearms that is subjective. So far I have been lucky. I have received firearms that are much nicer than rated. When dealing with competitive shooters they tend to rate performance over appearance. Seller claimed 95% you feel it may not make 85%. I feel for you on that but that would be covered somewhat in the add details on returns. Returns normally require you to pay the return shipping and FFL fee on your end.

What do you realistically expect GunBoker to do? Did they ship it or rate it? Do you have pictures from the GB add that are significantly different than what your received as to condition?

You also have the option of leaving bad feedback on the seller and/or pursuing legal options.

On a side note I have been burned three times on Cast Boolit purchases and had one that was really screwed up however the seller made it right.

[MrWolf]

Gunbroker offers a place to rate the sellers profile. You can do a writeup and describe your problems and dis satisfaction. Checking the sellers history can help or kill a sale.

If you follow their recommended procedures in resolving a situation it can take a bit. At that point you can't rate a sellers profile or at least in my case I couldn't. Guy had a great rating except every few months would get a negative. Wonder why...

[LynC2]

A number of points and questions were brought up in previous posts.

1) Regarding the condition of the rifle and his evaluation compared to mine. I offered the following deal: He could pick any gun shop/gunsmith in this city or the adjacent city to evaluate its condition. If I was wrong, I'd pay for it. If I was correct he would. He refused the offer.
2) Yes he is up in years, but I'm no spring chicken either and he doesn't have me by much. As you all know, this isn't an inexpensive hobby and for him to make several trips to the Nationals from Kansas City, Missouri wasn't cheap either. Being a fellow competitor I felt he likely would be more trustworthy than average. Obviously I was mistaken.

3) I've done several other transactions on Gunbroker without any problems. I use a credit card when possible, he wanted money orders. I did buy USPO money orders in order to have some recourse if there were any issues. I also have copies of all the emails to substantiate my claims.

4) I feel it was his responsibility to at least try to check the package and put in a claim with the PO, but I was the one that wound up doing it. I certainly paid him far more than necessary to ship all items insured and told him to ship me the mold. He also said he was shipping by air, he didn't and pocketed the extra for both the rifle and package.

5) On my last contact with him I made him a compromise offer. I would agree to split the loss with him if he would refund half the amount. No response.

[kokomokid]

Would be a good Sticky for first time Gunbroker traders.

[Chill Wills]

Keep after him!
Do the USPS MO follow up.
I have been on the receiving end a few times and it is kind of a helpless feeling. In fact, just with in the last 12 months I had a real bad experience (ASSRA) buying a 40 cal Badger barrel --- that was not.
1500 miles is too far to drive go after him. Maybe that is a good thing!

I wish you the best of luck.

[rfd]

with any online purchase, no matter who the seller or buyer, crystal clear communications and understanding clear and concise buy/sell/shipping/insurance/payment parameters are CRUCIAL ... and in writing (meaning, a digital "paper" trail that can be referred to during and after the transaction).

once that's nailed down, the trust begins that both parties will oblige the agreed on transaction parameters.

the seller ALWAYS owns the the goods and is responsible for them until the buyer receives the goods and is satisfied that the goods received meets their description and imaging perfectly - anything less becomes the seller's problem. the buyer simply needs to transfer funds in a timely manner. the biggest concerns always belongs to the seller.

personally, i do not like using third party "go betweens", such as gunbroker, for buying/selling used gear of any kind. i prefer forum classifieds such as here at CB.

[LynC2]

Keep after him!
Do the USPS MO follow up.
I have been on the receiving end a few times and it is kind of a helpless feeling. In fact, just with in the last 12 months I had a real bad experience (ASSRA) buying a 40 cal Badger barrel --- that was not.
1500 miles is too far to drive go after him. Maybe that is a good thing!

I wish you the best of luck.

Sorry you got stung on that deal. That may well be the same barrel I recall seeing on ASSRA and was considering buying. It's unfortunate that we have to deal with dishonest individuals that put their ill gotten gains above their integrity, honor and reputation. Those mean far more to me than money ever could and I'm certainly not a rich man other than my family and friends.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello Guys,

I purchased a Ruger #3 in 45/70 quite a few years back on Gunbroker, supposed to be NIB. When it arrived we were unable to open the lever, with a 3 day return policy I immediately sent off an email, sent another on the second day to which neither had been answered. I had my local gunsmith look it over, he didn't know what was going on so on the third day I sent another email telling him that my local gunsmith had looked it over. Still no response, on the fourth day we decided to send it off to Ruger, unfortunately we used the original box (which never came back). I sent off another email after shipping it off, boy this time I got a response. He claimed that I had no right to send it off to Ruger, bla bla bla. I responded with my last contact to him stating that I included instructions to Ruger that if it were anything but new in the box to return it to the seller. Ruger found a rusted plunger, which holds the lever shut. Replaced the plunger and spring, test fired it & sent it to me with a #1 instruction manual and a new box, no charge. I think we lucked out, I still can't believe the seller didn't know it was locked up.

AntiqueSledMan.

[megasupermagnum]

The molds, and other accessories is a bad deal. I've got a gun shop that has a bad habit of "never seeing it" too. All you can do is keep after the seller.

As for the rifle, different people have different priorities on quality and condition. For what it's worth, I bought a 54 caliber TC scout pistol that was advertised as "Never Fired" on gunbroker. I was furious when not only was it fired, it was plain as day that it had been. The seller was either fraudulent, or plain dumb. It wasn't long after that I took it out and found it to be WAY beyond my expectations as far as shooting. That handgun will shoot a PRB as good as my rifles, sometimes better, at least off a bench. I am now tickled pink to have bought it. It's best not to judge a gun until you shoot it. Don't underestimate the accuracy to happiness conversion factor.

[LynC2]

One thing for certain is "Let the buyer beware" certainly applies. My dealings with a certain Chas S Dalman, aka "silvertomahawk" on Gunbroker certainly fall in that category.

[Petrol & Powder]

Caveat Emptor.

I've had remarkably positive transactions related to Gunbroker purchases. That doesn't imply that everyone else can expect the same.
My rule is to never risk more than I'm willing to lose.

At some point in time you have to ask yourself - How much hassle is this worth ? Seriously ? Sometimes you need to just cut your losses and walk away. Spending more money to correct the issue than you could possibly recover in the end is just plain stupid.
Spending far more money than you lost just, "For the Principle of it" is downright dumb. There is a time to be pragmatic and let the emotion go.

In the movie the "Bronx Tale", the main character, Calogero "C" Anello, is annoyed because another kid owes him $20 but constantly avoids him so that Anello cannot collect.
Anello's mentor, "Sonny", a street smart criminal, asks him if the kid is a friend.

Anello responds that he doesn't even like the kid.

Sonny responds, "You don't even like him ? There's your answer right there. Look at it this way: It costs you 20 dollars to get rid of him... He's out of your life for 20 dollars. You got off cheap. Forget him. " .

Despite the fact that the "Sonny" character is a criminal, the advice was sound. It's cheaper to let it go.