Action strength of 6.5x55 Norwegian Krag

[303carbine]

How strong are they and what loading data works best??
Thanks

[uscra112]

Ping. I've got one, too. WW2 vintage with German markings, sporterized. Working up a load for it one of the many projects I've never gotten around to.

[Wayne Smith]

They were made so that the bolt handle is another locking lug, the American ones weren't. For this reason the Germans rebarrelled them in 7.9x57 and issued them. That argues that they can handle modern loads??

[uscra112]

More to it than that.

https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?590681-Krag-rifles-One-or-Two-Locking-Lugs

[17nut]

They were made so that the bolt handle is another locking lug, the American ones weren't. For this reason the Germans rebarrelled them in 7.9x57 and issued them. That argues that they can handle modern loads??

Yes end no!
Yes some were issued in 8mm Mauser but they were for guard duty and not ment to be used hard at the front.

Likewise some of the poor ******** at the eastern front in late 1944 were given 9mm Parabellum ammo to shoot in their Mauser M96 pistols chambered for 7,63x25.

In general the Norwegian KJ was the reason the 6,5x55 round is limited to 3800bar~55.1kpsi, The M96 mauser the Swedes used can take higher pressures.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I have one of these rifles, but haven't experimented with it too much. Therefore, I feel your pain, as reloading information specifically for the Norwegian Krag is hard to come by. Many reloading manuals contain data for the 6.5 Swedish cartridge, but usually say it is for the M96 Mauser, and don't mention the Krag. Hornady No. 3 advises to avoid "high intensity loads" in both rifles. Lee No. 2 has several pages of loads for different bullet weights, but again does not differentiate between the two rifles. Cartridges of the World (8th Edition) in the chapter concerning Military Cartridges claims a working pressure of 45,000 psi for both rifles, but in the Sporting Cartridges chapter urges prudence. This book lists several loads, again without differentiation between the two designs, Krag and Mauser, but apparently both are quite capable of using the issue military loading. So, were it I, I think that I would start with the extensive information found in Lee's No. 2 manual and stick with middle-of-the-road loads.

[Larry Gibson]

"Cartridges of the World (8th Edition) in the chapter concerning Military Cartridges claims a working pressure of 45,000 psi for both rifles, but in the Sporting Cartridges chapter urges prudence."

That pressure measurement is based on C.U.P. measurement not on the current PIS of transducer measurement. Note however the correlation between the 45,000 psi (C.U.P.) and the current psi measurement (transducer) for CIP of 55,100 psi. They are essentially the same pressure.....just different means of measurement is all.

Never used or loaded for the Norwegian 6.5 Krag so I won't comment on the action. However, all cast bullet load data listed in Lyman manuals will has psi's well below any "maximum" level for that action. Also I have pressure tested PRVI, Remington and Winchester factory 139/140 ammunition and the psi of those loads is well below the "45,000" C.U.P. figure. As mentioned though, "prudence" should be used.

[Buzz Krumhunger]

To me, the beauty of the 6.5x55 is that it doesn’t need to be hot-rodded to be an effective hunting cartridge. The mild recoil and excellent terminal effects are why I enjoy it.

[Rimfire]

In the 1950's Globe firearms sold converted Norwegian Krags in 308 Win. and 243 Win. It was the model 777

[303Guy]

This is all very interesting. A bit off the track but as my handle suggest, I am a Lee Enfield guy by default - I was born into it so to speak. Thing is, the 55 case will eject in a LE action and now I see the pressures would be within the safe limits of the Lee Enfield. I'm not worried about what I might load but what a factory load might do, should some innocent get hold of such a conversion by inheritance or something. Anyway, it's just a thought exercise. Besides, none of my No4's need rebarreling. Or do they? [smilie=1:

Like I have time even to shoot my 303's as they are!

[Multigunner]

This is all very interesting. A bit off the track but as my handle suggest, I am a Lee Enfield guy by default - I was born into it so to speak. Thing is, the 55 case will eject in a LE action and now I see the pressures would be within the safe limits of the Lee Enfield.

Years ago I gave some thought to rebarreling a No.4 to take the 6.5X57 Rimmed.
I've heard of Enfields rebarreled to take the .257 Roberts necked up to 6.5 using Surplus 6.5 Japanese barrels. That would probably be in the same ballpark as the 6.5X55.

[leebuilder]

In the 1950's Globe firearms sold converted Norwegian Krags in 308 Win. and 243 Win. It was the model 777

I have handled a few in 308, they came with Bohler Sthall barrels.
Be well

[KCSO]

This is essentially a 93-95 action type and as such it is not as safe as a 98 action although it is probably as strong as far as materials go. There is no finer steel made, but this does not make up for lack of gas bleed holes and lack of the safety lug in the bolt receive. The gun was designed for and tested for 46-48000 psi ammunition and those loads will rival the 6.5 Creedmoor as it is, you really don't need any more.

[uscra112]

They were made so that the bolt handle is another locking lug, the American ones weren't. For this reason the Germans rebarrelled them in 7.9x57 and issued them. That argues that they can handle modern loads??

On all my Krags the guide rib acts as a backstop locking lug, not the bolt handle.

[madsenshooter]

Ping. I've got one, too. WW2 vintage with German markings, sporterized. Working up a load for it one of the many projects I've never gotten around to.

I had someone give me one of those! I already bought a full length stock to cut down for it, but hate to. Barrel is like new! Fellow told me his dad paid $10 for the barreled action back in the 60s. Funny a couple of them being close to each other, near SR78! Mine is serial #1034, made from an 1897 Steyr-made rifle. I also have a 1916 action that I put a .243 barrel on which I scored off ebay. The OP was wondering about action strength. I would not be afraid to fire modern .243 ammo. That action is some of the best steel ever made! Though I said I wouldn't be afraid of modern ammo, I think I'm going to have the loading gate engraved "For reduced recoil .243 loads only". There's a couple loads available.

[madsenshooter]

I have handled a few in 308, they came with Bohler Sthall barrels.
Be well

Back when they were making those .308s, the importer also had some Boehler Steel barrels made in what's stamped on mine, .243WCF. I spied a couple of them on ebay sometime back, ID'd by the left hand thread. Sold the better of the two.

[madsenshooter]

They were made so that the bolt handle is another locking lug, the American ones weren't. For this reason the Germans rebarrelled them in 7.9x57 and issued them. That argues that they can handle modern loads??

That's one thing I noted about my Stomperud. The action has been worked enough that some of the black phosphate coating is wearing off the bolt. It appears the root of the bolt handle is bearing more than the locking lug and guide rib are. Maybe an intentional bit of bad fit by the war time workers? Nothing a bit of stoning wouldn't fix. The 1916 action, with matching # bolt bears on the locking lug and guide rib and there is a bit of space at the rear of the bolt handle root.

[tomme boy]

...........

[Peregrine]

In the 1950's Globe firearms sold converted Norwegian Krags in 308 Win. and 243 Win. It was the model 777

I have a Globe 433, it's a Norwegian Krag sporterized and in .308
Unsurprisingly I shoot it with cast and not full power .308 so i'm a long way away from having to mull over the strength of the action.

It's a very nice handling rifle and i've gotten excellent accuracy with it.
I do have one issue with it i've been meaning to post up here on the forum for advice so i'm going to go right ahead and take this opertunity while we're already on about these rifles.

When shooting it the magazine hinge plate tends to flip upwards and then come out forwards under recoil. This is very inconvenient as in short order it causes the magazine to partially disassemble and jam, I have quit shooting it because I always have to check it after every shot, and that's a shame because I want to shoot it more.


What is it that normally keeps the hinge pin locked in it's proper, down, orientation? Is it just friction between the leaf on the front of the pin and the bottom of the magazine body?


I took some pictures for those not as familiar with these who want to follow along.
Hinge pin in downward, locked position;

https://imgur.com/9gFXHtJ.jpg


Hinge pin flipped forward;

https://imgur.com/MulE4zO.jpg


Hinge pin backing out (at this point the magazine will loose tension on the follower and won't feed properly;

https://imgur.com/VmwBxCI.jpg



Magazine dissembled (for reference)

https://imgur.com/DQLlExs.jpg



And I suppose I owe y'all a shot of the actual rifle, quick and not the best. I stole the sling on it and stuck it on the Ross 1905E I found the other day. It's my solution to a cast 30cal platform since the krag wasn't behaving. Although I would rather like to get the krag up and running because I have a whole ton of .308 brass and oddly enough nothing else chambered in it. :o

https://imgur.com/uZxIqV4.jpg

[madsenshooter]

A new magazine spring might put enough tension on the pin to keep it from going forward. The flipping up I've fixed on US Krags by very carefully bending the leaf spring of the pin so that it engages better in the notch of the receiver. It can be a touchy thing bending that tab and I imagine a few people have broke them when trying. It also appears that someone has put some vertical scoring on the magazine spring in the area that bears against the pin. Maybe that was someone trying to keep the shaft from going forward under recoil. Taking a little bit of vertical height off the bottom part of the magazine spring where it bears against the hook of the follower might also help the leaf spring of the pin fit down into it's notch better. The magazine spring on mine sticks down below the hook and bears on the little leaf spring of the magazine pin, but not the hook. That's likely intentional to keep tension off the hook. There's nearly a 1/16 difference between where the little leaf bears on the magazine spring and the bottom of the hook on mine. You might gain a little engagement by taking off a few thousandths. That's something I might try myself as there's very little engagement on mine, though it didn't rotate when I opened and closed the gate several times. Gotta remember the Stomperuds were assembled by people who really didn't wanna be doing it, so fitting wasn't a high priority. Just make the quota!

[Peregrine]

Thank you madsen Shooter for a quality post.

I took the magazine spring between two fingertips and gave it a very gentle squeeze and was surprised how readily it bent inwards. I didn't bend it very much, and upon reassembling the magazine it did indeed lock into the recess in the receiver with a positive click. The problem is that bending it inwards increased the contact that the inner upper edge of it has on the magazine door, now when the door closes it actually has an increased tendency to be dragged upwards by the contact with the door. I have included a picture and highlighted where the contact is for those playing along at home. It's along the inside, on the back face. (I just noticed that rust while taking that picture, i'll clean that up shortly. Rifle had quite a bit of that going on when I first got it.)

https://imgur.com/GtZyk8b.jpg

The contact is on the inner upper edge. After working the magazine door a few times it seems that the leafspring on the pin has been bent back to where it was, and it doesn't have the same tendency to follow the door, but it also doesn't click in place anymoe.
It seems to me I should take a file to where the contact is to relieve it? There's no reason that leaf spring should actually be contacting the magazine door, is there?




The magazine spring on mine sticks down below the hook and bears on the little leaf spring of the magazine pin, but not the hook. That's likely intentional to keep tension off the hook. There's nearly a 1/16 difference between where the little leaf bears on the magazine spring and the bottom of the hook on mine. You might gain a little engagement by taking off a few thousandths.

Everything you wrote makes perfect sense until I got to here.
I see where the magazine spring engages with the hook and where it can come through the reciever and contact the leaf spring on the hinge pin. I'm not sure about where the 1/16th difference you're taking about or how it would keep tension off the hook and in which position, much less where you'd remove material from.

Here's a couple more pictures for those following along.

https://imgur.com/YQ27pPV.jpg


https://imgur.com/MzH7EnI.jpg



I will say one thing, this thread has at the very least gotten me to play around with the krag's magazine today. What a slick and mechanically novel design! I'm especially liking the protrusion on the magazine door that cams the follower back into it as you open the door and locks it in there against spring tension. In firearms design so often we see design features being reiterated time and time again, it's very cool to see something quite different that really does work relatively quite well.
Well, except for this hinge pin for me right now. :p

[303Guy]

Years ago I gave some thought to rebarreling a No.4 to take the 6.5X57 Rimmed.
I've heard of Enfields rebarreled to take the .257 Roberts necked up to 6.5 using Surplus 6.5 Japanese barrels. That would probably be in the same ballpark as the 6.5X55.

I've thought about that one too. I don't recall checking the OAL though. It might not fit the magazine. Then again, there is nothing wrong with single shot and the magazine has a neat trick if the innards are removed - it catches the fired cases!

Just the other day I was thinking about the .257 Roberts on a Lee Enfield. If the extractor claw is long enough, it will still eject. But I have a 25/303 so I don't actually need one .... but there is nothing wrong with wanting one!

[nekshot]

My grandfather was issued a krag to replace is old springfield(the single shot) rifle he originally was given. Now my son is on the look out for one of these because of his grandfathers connection to them. I am enjoying the search myself. Never can get my head around why the inventor went out the side as it surely weakens the stock I assume!

[uscra112]

I've thought about that one too. I don't recall checking the OAL though. It might not fit the magazine. Then again, there is nothing wrong with single shot and the magazine has a neat trick if the innards are removed - it catches the fired cases!


Converting Krags for the Lovell 22-3000 wildcat was quite common in the late '30s and up to about 1950. Since the conversion was necessarily a single shot, many 'smiths would mill the entire magazine off the right side, and omit the cover on the left, so the stock looked more "normal". And with the guts gone, the magazine well does neatly catch the fired cases. In the long grass of the woodchuck fields, that is indeed a nice feature.

[uscra112]

It's probably appropriate at this time to repost these photos of cracked Krag bolts:251284251285

[madsenshooter]

Here's how the Stomperud fits together. This is after opening and closing the door a few times. As you can see the little leaf on the pin is actually resting on the magazine tension spring instead of the recess in the receiver. There's room to take a wee bit off the bottom of the tension spring, (up in the pic, what's above the hook of the arbor) while still keeping the pin spring from hitting the arbor of the magazine follower. Yours might fit better, open and close the gate a few times to see where all the parts settle in to.

[jonp]

I have a Globe 433, it's a Norwegian Krag sporterized and in .308
Unsurprisingly I shoot it with cast and not full power .308 so i'm a long way away from having to mull over the strength of the action.

It's a very nice handling rifle and i've gotten excellent accuracy with it.
I do have one issue with it i've been meaning to post up here on the forum for advice so i'm going to go right ahead and take this opertunity while we're already on about these rifles.

When shooting it the magazine hinge plate tends to flip upwards and then come out forwards under recoil. This is very inconvenient as in short order it causes the magazine to partially disassemble and jam, I have quit shooting it because I always have to check it after every shot, and that's a shame because I want to shoot it more.


What is it that normally keeps the hinge pin locked in it's proper, down, orientation? Is it just friction between the leaf on the front of the pin and the bottom of the magazine body?


I took some pictures for those not as familiar with these who want to follow along.
Hinge pin in downward, locked position;

https://imgur.com/9gFXHtJ.jpg


Hinge pin flipped forward;

https://imgur.com/MulE4zO.jpg


Hinge pin backing out (at this point the magazine will loose tension on the follower and won't feed properly;

https://imgur.com/VmwBxCI.jpg



Magazine dissembled (for reference)

https://imgur.com/DQLlExs.jpg



And I suppose I owe y'all a shot of the actual rifle, quick and not the best. I stole the sling on it and stuck it on the Ross 1905E I found the other day. It's my solution to a cast 30cal platform since the krag wasn't behaving. Although I would rather like to get the krag up and running because I have a whole ton of .308 brass and oddly enough nothing else chambered in it. :o

https://imgur.com/uZxIqV4.jpg

Hold on a second...You "found a Ross the other day"? Stamped Quebec?