Perfecting TC Renegade

[megasupermagnum]

This is a continuation of my previous posts. I've found that my TC Renegade 54 caliber definitely prefers a conical, either a maxi ball or the custom great plains bullet I made. For no particular reason I decided it might be a good idea to look the gun over to prevent possible stock damage. I started with the lock. Both that and the trigger was inlet quite well, so I'm going to leave those be. The tang and barrel, however, seem to have some slop. If I take the tang out, it fits the barrel pretty well. Maybe the tiniest bit of side to side play, but I can't imagine getting it better and still having it removable. The problem is that the tang is inlet in the stock at a slight upward angle. The barrel by comparison is slightly down. The barrel fits the stock channel quite well. This creates a sliver of a gap at the top between the tang and barrel. That can't be helping accuracy, or be doing my stock any favors.

My thinking is to take some wood near the front of the tang channel to bring that inline with the back of the barrel. My question is what is the best way to do this? I am no wood worker, but I think this is minor enough of a job I can tackle it. I have some wood chisels, as well as plenty of power tools to work with. After all is aligned, I plan to bed both the tang and barrel with devcon. Besides creating a perfect fit, I believe this should make the stock more stout for the heavy loads I intend on shooting.

[LAGS]

I Crazy Glue the Tang to the barrel, then Bed the barrel and tang as one unit.
The Tang can be removed later to make the barrel removable.
Use Red Lipstick on the barrel and Tang to see there any high spots are on the wood.
Bedding the two parts as one will guarantee proper and consistent alignment.
Be careful when you bed the Barrel at the point of the Barrel LUG.
You don't want to lock the barrel and lug onto the stock, or let Epoxy run into the cleaning rod hole.

[megasupermagnum]

I'm sure it would, but giving up a removable barrel? I have a peep sight bracket on my tang that has to be removed to remove the tang. I like how simple everything is now. To clean I pull the wedge and put the barrel in a bucket of water. I'm not sure I'm willing to give that up. I'll try the lipstick trick, thanks.

[LAGS]

You are not Following me.
You glue the Tang to the barrel for Fitting Only.
After the stock is bedded , you remove the Tang from the barrel.
Then when installed into the stock , the parts are in perfect alignment , and the barrel is again removable like it was meant to be.

[fiberoptik]

Liberal amounts of release applied to barrel & tang so the are removable.


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[megasupermagnum]

You are not Following me.
You glue the Tang to the barrel for Fitting Only.
After the stock is bedded , you remove the Tang from the barrel.
Then when installed into the stock , the parts are in perfect alignment , and the barrel is again removable like it was meant to be.

Thanks, that makes better sense. You use super glue so that you can get it apart again when done. That's sounds like a very good idea.

[LAGS]

That method works great.
I have done more than a dozen rifles or Kits this way.
If your barrel seems fit the barrel channel right now, glue the Tang to the barrel and check the bedding in the Tang area.
If you have high spots that keep the Tang from sitting down square , then just shave them down.
If you have gaps under the Tang or on the sides , then you put release on the Tang and barrel so they can be bedded with Epoxy.
The Devcon can be used for that .

[Edward]

This is a continuation of my previous posts. I've found that my TC Renegade 54 caliber definitely prefers a conical, either a maxi ball or the custom great plains bullet I made. For no particular reason I decided it might be a good idea to look the gun over to prevent possible stock damage. I started with the lock. Both that and the trigger was inlet quite well, so I'm going to leave those be. The tang and barrel, however, seem to have some slop. If I take the tang out, it fits the barrel pretty well. Maybe the tiniest bit of side to side play, but I can't imagine getting it better and still having it removable. The problem is that the tang is inlet in the stock at a slight upward angle. The barrel by comparison is slightly down. The barrel fits the stock channel quite well. This creates a sliver of a gap at the top between the tang and barrel. That can't be helping accuracy, or be doing my stock any favors.

My thinking is to take some wood near the front of the tang channel to bring that inline with the back of the barrel. My question is what is the best way to do this? I am no wood worker, but I think this is minor enough of a job I can tackle it. I have some wood chisels, as well as plenty of power tools to work with. After all is aligned, I plan to bed both the tang and barrel with devcon. Besides creating a perfect fit, I believe this should make the stock more stout for the heavy loads I intend on shooting.
The good news for you is ebay has replacement stocks (at reasonable costs)for no longer made stocks/just sayin Ed

[Markopolo]

hmmmmm LAGS... sounds like a perfect situation for a thread How To step by Step or perhaps a short video????

[LAGS]

I was discussing with my wife about getting my camera working again so I could post a Tutorial on Bedding the three TC rifles that I am going to rebuild.
I am not a computer guy, but my wife can help me get things posted.
I do not have some Fancy Shop, and what I will be doing could be done by the average guy with simple hand tools.
I am sure it could be of help to many.
Thanks for the support.

[Mr Peabody]

Hmmm, My T/C has the same gap as MSM's. Now I see how to correct that issue, good answer LAGS!

[LAGS]

@ Mr. Peabody.
I am glad you like my suggestion, and I know it will work for what you need to do.
Keep us posted on if you start working on the Fix.
If you need further help, or have more Questions, don't be shy about asking, either in the Forum or by PM.

[koger]

Lags you give some good advice. I have glass bedded around 60 ML's over the years, some that had cracks starting to form behind the tang. I use Brownells acra glass, I coud mix it thin and get it into the cracks, or thicken it with the flock provided. Also, I inlet the wood around the bottom of where the tang/barrel meet, and put some extra thick glass on the bottom, sides and around the whole tang. Never had any issues with a stock that was fixed this way, and I have a .54 slug gun that has been shot for around 20 years. The reason I use acraglass, is that it works the same every time. With Devcon, not so much. I have had issues with it not setting up in our humid area here in southern KY, even though mixed to the tee. Never had any issues with acraglass. I have bedded over 200 centerfire rifles and every one turned out good. On my target guns built on Renegades, I have glass bedded the entire barrel channel and the tang recess. It has helped everyone of them to some degree. I also bedded my hunting Renegade too.

[LAGS]

@Koger.
I fully agree with you on the use of Acraglass.
But For most people on this Forum , they have limited gunsmithing experience.
By using the Materials they have on hand or that fit into their Budget makes it more friendly to encourage others to use what they have , and get that " One Project Complete "
They don't want to become Gunsmiths.
Nor do they have funds , or Availabity to take it to a Gunsmith.
So simple fixes ( though they may seem Bubba Fixes to others ) do work in a pinch or on a limited basis.
By teaching others the Basics , I feel I can encourage others to have faith in their abilities and take a step UP on their next project.

[Good Cheer]

It's easy to experiment with shimming also. If it works it works and if it doesn't help not a problem.
By the way, bedding the tang on a Renegade can do wonderful things. It all depends upon which way the manufacturing tolerances added up.

[LAGS]

There are many ways to correct bedding issues.
I even used Cardboard or brown Grocery bags soaked in Shelac sticks disolved in Alcohol for Rifles shot in competition that were not allowed to be bedded with Epoxy or by modern methods.
Shimming the 100 year old way was still permissable.

[Good Cheer]

The Renegades turned out to be a really nice "platform" from .40 to .62.
I'm really partial to them and the New Englanders.

[LAGS]

I like the Hawkens , but prefer the Renegade.
One thing is the Butt Plate.
I can remove it and add a recoil pad to the stock.
Not to soften the recoil , but more to adjust the length of pull to fit my neck and arm length better.

[fiberoptik]

I find the New Englanders to be ugly and out of proportion with its huge trigger guard and trigger. I much prefer the Renegade & Hawken.


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[megasupermagnum]

I like the Hawkens , but prefer the Renegade.
One thing is the Butt Plate.
I can remove it and add a recoil pad to the stock.
Not to soften the recoil , but more to adjust the length of pull to fit my neck and arm length better.

That's one thing I'm adding to mine is a recoil pad. I don't like the negative pitch of the stock. I'll probably cut that a neutral pitch, or slightly positive, then fit a kickeez recoil pad.

I've got a new englander, and I don't find it ugly. I do know it is not as good as the renegade. The renegade can be had in both single and double triggers, plus has a handful of peep sights that can be used on it. The only aftermarket sight for the NE I'm aware of is a Williams dovetail sight, just a fiber optic version of the original sight. I wouldn't call the trigger guard huge on the NE. The Renegade has the goofy trigger guard. I plan to cut that brush snagger off at some point.

[LAGS]

I have two trigger guards for my Renagade stocks.
I prefer the one that doesn't have the hook like the original one.
But the one without the hook is Brass.
I intend to brown the metal when I rebuild the rifle.
The brass guard won't look right.
But I haven't decided which stock is going on my 61 Cal. Or if I am going to build a new Full Length stock out of maple.


But like you said , I can always cut the hook off the steel guard since I am refinishing the rifle.
I have also inletted one stock for installation on a steel patch box.
The stock that gets the brass guard will be done up with brass tack decorations and other brass furniture like the ram rod pipes, and maybe a Brass patch box.

[nicholst55]

I have two trigger guards for my Renagade stocks.
I prefer the one that doesn't have the hook like the original one.
But the one without the hook is Brass.
I intend to brown the metal when I rebuild the rifle.
The brass guard won't look right.
But I haven't decided which stock is going on my 61 Cal. Or if I am going to build a new Full Length stock out of maple.


But like you said , I can always cut the hook off the steel guard since I am refinishing the rifle.
I have also inletted one stock for installation on a steel patch box.
The stock that gets the brass guard will be done up with brass tack decorations and other brass furniture like the ram rod pipes, and maybe a Brass patch box.

You could apply Birchwood Casey Brass Black to the brass TG, too.

[Good Cheer]

The New Englander has the 1 1/16" diameter back at the breach where thickness can be needed rather than down the full length of the barrel, a trait which lends itself to some applications. I've taken advantage of that on one to have a left hand rifle set up for as-cast 45-70 molds and also shooting paper patched then sized to .457. The original barrel length was preserved and the TC tang peep provides sufficient sight radius. I'm really tempted to set up another barrel for target shooting in .577 caliber but not on that stock as resetting the peep is a pain.

[LAGS]

I do have some Brass Black around here somewhere.
But Black is Not " Brown " to match all the other Furniture.
Otherwise I would just use the original trigger guard that is basically Black.
But I can make a trigger guard out if steel to any shape and finish I want.
I use to cast ones out of brass too.

[Fly]

Check the past posts Hotrod Renagade. Ron made the most accurate Renagade I have ever heard of. I named it Hotrod renegade. I took his advice
& copied much the same on my Lyman GPR into GPH. It shoots WAY better than me. Maybe Ron will chime in. Have not heard from him in some time.

Fly

[LAGS]

Since I have two Renagade stocks , I may be looking for another complete Renagade barrel to build on the spare stock since the stock is pretty much complete.
If possible , I would rather find one that is not in Pristine condition , but still be able to Re Bored by Hoyt., And of course at a decent price.
Thanks for the info on the Hotrod Renagade, I will look it up.
I also have a GPR kit to build with a spare GPH barrel for it

[Buzzard II]

Good info here. Please keep it up. Thanks
Bob

[Good Cheer]

LAGS,
Along those lines, one of my projects still ongoing is two .52 bore fast twist Renegades, 26" and 38".
They're set up to use off the shelf fifty molds paper patched and sized .519" diameter. But I need time to do stuff.

Another gee golly maybe some day project is another New Englander, using the barrel hardware for a longer replacement tube. And I gots some wild ideas about a scope...

[megasupermagnum]

Check the past posts Hotrod Renagade. Ron made the most accurate Renagade I have ever heard of. I named it Hotrod renegade. I took his advice
& copied much the same on my Lyman GPR into GPH. It shoots WAY better than me. Maybe Ron will chime in. Have not heard from him in some time.

Fly

I see lots on lots of references to this gun, which appears to be a Hawken made by Idahorod. It looks to be a custom Green Mountain 45 caliber barrel in 1:30" twist. I take it he also bedded the tang and barrel, although I do not see it mentioned. I must be doing something right, as I am not far off from what he did. I've seen some impressive groups with paper patch, but I do not want to go that route. If my gun is "limited" to 3" groups at 100 yards with aperture sights, I'm tickled pink. I simply want to make my stock solid, and make sure everything fits good so it will remain consistent well into the future.

[Fly]

If I remember right Ron barrel was 50 cal 1 in 24 twist. He used a 50 cal PP S&W conical. I bought a GPH barrel in 1 in 28 twist & a Lee mold 50 cal
S&W.
Fly

[Fly]

Here you go! You are right it was a Hawkins but some Renegades were made like it. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?287660-Shooting-today-with-the-Hot-Rod-Hawken

Fly

[Good Cheer]

Nobody has shown their Renegades using the .476/.480 diameter molds. Been wondering when we'd see some. A tapered 30"-32" barrel on a slimmed down New Englander could be pretty nice. I went with .458 instead only because of the many available mold designs and being able to paper patch pistol and revolver molds up to bore diameter as well as shoot .451 round ball.
Picked up a pyrodexed New Englander barrel to make a project gun with. I'll be figgerin' out what to do with it.

Thoughts after breakfast; a New Englander could make a really nice rifle with a .577 bore and progressive depth groove rifling like the P58's were made with. But would your grooves cut into that deep dove tail that TC used for their front sights where the barrel diameter is only about 15/16"? Better look at that!

[LAGS]

Don't forget about the deep dovetail on the bottom of the barrel or the holes Tapped for mounting the ramrod pipes.
There are lots of Factors you have to consider when you Re Bore a barrel .
Bob Hoyt will talk you thru it from what I have seen. But if you want a Barrel that is Truly Custom , and to your " Special Specs".
Then I suggest you start with a New barrel from the get go.
Re-Boring can have it's "Limitations".

[megasupermagnum]

I just got my barrel/tang into the bedding today. It will be ready to remove by morning. I've thought about a 58 caliber a few times for the renegade. I can't detect any pitting or other problem with my barrel. It just plain does not shoot a PRB well. It is VERY sensitive to patches and often blows them to pieces. Now my new Englander has a pitted bore, not bad, but you can see it. That gun has never had a problem with a PRB. It never shot great, but better than the renegade. The only limiting factor for me with the NE is the sights.

[LAGS]

If the barrel is 1" you will not have a problem boring the barrels out to .58.
I went to .61 cal. on mine with Deep Rifling and had no issues..
The groove diameter is actually .640.
I would have to do the math to see how thick the barrel walls will end up if I took a 15/16 out that far.
But I have seen .54's with 15/16 barrels.
But never looked at the dovetail depths in the barrel for either the sights or the barrel lug.
If you have the barrel re-bored by Hoyt , he will talk you thru recommended twists for what ever projectal you want to shoot on a regular basis.
I opted for slow twist for a Round ball.

[Drm50]

I'm not a BP nut but have had a 50 and 45 Hawken bought when they were first out. Only have them for Ohio ML season. Some years they aren't shot because my tags are already filled. I shoot balls in both of mine, maxi and such wasn't made yet. Both shot better than I can hold them and only thing I did to them was change the sights. Replaced front with marble bead and modified rear to take Marble inserts. Later Marble came out with replacement rear that mounts in original rear sight screws, and I bought them. I've shot a couple deer at 125yds plus with the 50 cal. Since I'm not target shooting I can't see the point in bedding them. I've bedded several BA rifles with Accra Glass and I would think a TC would be a lot less trouble to bed.

[megasupermagnum]

I'm not a BP nut but have had a 50 and 45 Hawken bought when they were first out. Only have them for Ohio ML season. Some years they aren't shot because my tags are already filled. I shoot balls in both of mine, maxi and such wasn't made yet. Both shot better than I can hold them and only thing I did to them was change the sights. Replaced front with marble bead and modified rear to take Marble inserts. Later Marble came out with replacement rear that mounts in original rear sight screws, and I bought them. I've shot a couple deer at 125yds plus with the 50 cal. Since I'm not target shooting I can't see the point in bedding them. I've bedded several BA rifles with Accra Glass and I would think a TC would be a lot less trouble to bed.

If mine shot a round ball hunting accurate (sub 4") out to 125 yards, I wouldn't be touching it. Mine didn't. It was hunting accurate to 75 yards at best, after a whole summers worth of load development. Maybe the bedding will be the best thing I ever did, or not. It will at least help the stock hold up to the recoil of 440 grain bullets.

I do know I could tell how humid it was based on how hard it was to put the wedge key back in. That tells me the stock was a variable. I also know the tang and barrel were not a perfect fit. Being as my rear sight was mounted to the tang, that is a huge variable if the barrel shifts in the tang shot to shot.

[Good Cheer]

I have one Renegade stock that you can slide a barrel forwards and back before the wedge is inserted. How much depends upon which barrel. It currently has a Green Mountain drop-in .40 bore in it for fairly short range stability key holing tests. Some day it will get a barrel permanently selected for it and everything adjusted to be rock solid. Meanwhile it is what it is, an unfortunate collection of how manufacturing tolerances added up.

[LAGS]

I had a barrel and Tang set up that was loose.
I took the Tang , and built it up inside the connection point with Brass Brazing Rod.
Then filed it to fit the barrel breech plug tab so there was less Slop , but the barrel was still removable.
I just used a Maple Gas torch to do the Brazing on the Tang.
But once both parts were fitted and then glass bedded into the stock they were totally solid and couldn't shift at all till the wedge was removed.
But even if there is slop in the breech plug to Tang set up ,once the Tang and Barrel are glass bedded the two parts can't shift.

[megasupermagnum]

I got it all done and together. Hopefully the weather turns out decent next week to try and shoot it. The bedding turned out good. The super glue was the biggest problem. The barrel pulled out of the tang easy enough, but even soaking in acetone wasn't cleaning it off. I had to resort to a wire brush, and touch up with cold blue.

249265



It's nothing special to look at, but it is a nice rifle. I did end up cutting that dang finger buster off the trigger guard. There is nothing like something you put together yourself.

249266

[LAGS]

Pride in ownership is one good thing.
Pride in things you made or improved with your own two hands is even a better feeling.

[LAGS]

I forgot to mention the fact , that when I glue tangs to the barrel for bedding , I am usually rebuilding the entire rifle .
So I am never worried about messing up the bluing.
But I have broken apart the super glue by heating it up with a propane or mapp gas torch.
That doesn't mess up the bluing if you don't get it too hot.

[megasupermagnum]

I forgot to mention the fact , that when I glue tangs to the barrel for bedding , I am usually rebuilding the entire rifle .
So I am never worried about messing up the bluing.
But I have broken apart the super glue by heating it up with a propane or mapp gas torch.
That doesn't mess up the bluing if you don't get it too hot.

Doh! I didn't even think of a torch. Acetone would get it kind of loose, but you only had about 10 seconds before the glue hardened again. The wire brush worked fine, and all I had to do was touch up the bluing on the hook and inside tang, you can't see it anyway.

[LAGS]

You can use Epoxy to glue the Tang to the barrel also.
But you have to wait till it fully cures to assure a good bond. Like 24 hours.
Epoxy softens with heat when you want to pull it apart once cured. I use a heat gun
Or it disbondes from metal if you freeze epoxy.
Good things to know if you ever have a Failure on your release agent , or as I did one time , forget to put the release agent on the barrel.

[megasupermagnum]

Boy, what a day! I finished up this renegade, helped out with an old CVA, and learned something. Now I just received notification that I have won an auction. I am now the owner of another 54 caliber TC Renegade... a flintlock. This will be my first flintlock.