Casting: Drop in water or air-cool???

[srk]

Hi Everyone
I have been casting for quite awhile and for the most part, I have usually dropped my cast's in water, and rarely air cool.
I started out air-cooling, but read somewhere or saw someone cooling in water.
I guess because the harder they are they may/or may not lead up the bore as easily.
I always try to keep the loads around 1200-1400fps.
Is air better than water?
OR
Is water cooling better than air?
I was wondering what others are doing and why?
Is one better than the other?
Thanks!

[Cast_outlaw]

It all depends on you alloy you are casting with pure lead will make no appropriable difference with coww will make a huge difference as they have arsenic witch allows the quenching to work better ( depending on water temperature) I ice water dropped my last batch of boolits and my coww went from 13 hardness to 30 bh bit that may have no bearing on wether or not you get leading as the boolits fit is more important in this aspect but at the velocities you are pushing them to air cooled should be fine as my 303 is not leading at 1765fps

[Winger Ed.]

I understand water quenching puts a hardened shell on them, like case hardening steel.

In the old days, it was popular to air cool, heat a oven until one 'slumped'.
Back off the temp several degrees, the bake the entire batch for awhile.
THEN dump them all at once in a pan of cold water.

About the time I joined here, a few people were dropping straight out of the mold, into cold water.
The principle sounded good, it was faster with less work to get to the same place.
So I've been doing that myself ever since.

To have less chance of a visit from the tinsel fairy-
My pot is on a higher than normal workbench, and my bucket with floating sponges on it is sort of behind me and a few feet from the bench.
I have to rotate to drop the boolits in the water even though it has a poor man's splash guard.

[FLINTNFIRE]

I read about water dropping back late 97 , I did it more for cooling then for hardness , most of those bullets sit in tubs till 5-6 years ago all were scrap mixed with wheel weights , now I have a slide I drop on cushioned with old towels every few casts I push them on down where they lay in a old fridge drawer till I remove and powder coat , fit is more important then hard or soft , I find that standing at my bench dropping on slide and not messing with water pails works for me , others use water in buckets and it works for them , today I took out some air cooled powder coated 45-70 50 grains of some old imr 4895 no leading and little residue .

[srk]

I just wasn't sure if air cooling would create a better "bump-up" factor as they wouldn't be as hard. It's been so long since I have air cooled, I can't remember if the results on paper were better or not.
Thanks

[Outpost75]

Elmer Keith’s book Sixgun Cartridges and Loads (1936) on pgs. 69-70 states:

“For most revolver cartridges, including all light and normal pressure loads, there is no use to having the bullets harder than one part tin to twenty parts lead for really heavy loads a one to fifteen mixture is hard enough… For automatic pistols, the bullets should be very hard, consisting of about one part tin to ten parts of lead, in order for them to slide up easily out of the magazine into the chamber… A mixture of part tin and part antimony works very well for some heavy loads, but such very hard, brittle bullets are not needed for any revolver load except in the case of extreme penetration, where no upsettage or expansion is wanted.”

I have found Keith's suggestions to be right on the money in my last 50 years experience following them. I use 1:30 tin-lead for standard pressure loads in the .32-20, .38 Special, .44 Special, .44-40 and .45 Colt. In the 9mm Parabellum, .357 Magnum, .40 S&W, 10mm, .44 Magnum and .45 ACP as well as for gaschecked rifle loads up to 1800 fps in cartridges such as the .30-30 Winchester and .303 British, I find wheelweights + 2% tin quite hard enough.

The ONLY time I use harder bullets, is for full-charge loads over 2000 fps in the .30-'06 to function the M1 Garand. In that case the same WW+2% tin alloy I use for most rifle loads works very well, when quenched from the mold.

[gwpercle]

Elmer Keith’s book Sixgun Cartridges and Loads (1936) on pgs. 69-70 states:

“For most revolver cartridges, including all light and normal pressure loads, there is no use to having the bullets harder than one part tin to twenty parts lead for really heavy loads a one to fifteen mixture is hard enough… For automatic pistols, the bullets should be very hard, consisting of about one part tin to ten parts of lead, in order for them to slide up easily out of the magazine into the chamber… A mixture of part tin and part antimony works very well for some heavy loads, but such very hard, brittle bullets are not needed for any revolver load except in the case of extreme penetration, where no upsettage or expansion is wanted.”

I have found Keith's suggestions to be right on the money in my last 50 years experience following them. I use 1:30 tin-lead for standard pressure loads in the .32-20, .38 Special, .44 Special, .44-40 and .45 Colt. In the 9mm Parabellum, .357 Magnum, .40 S&W, 10mm, .44 Magnum and .45 ACP as well as for gaschecked rifle loads up to 1800 fps in cartridges such as the .30-30 Winchester and .303 British, I find wheelweights + 2% tin quite hard enough.

The ONLY time I use harder bullets, is for full-charge loads over 2000 fps in the .30-'06 to function the M1 Garand. In that case the same WW+2% tin alloy I use for most rifle loads works very well, when quenched from the mold.

Agree 100% .
It's a shame more people aren't aware of all the wisdom contained in that book. More should read it and ignore a lot of misinformation thrown around like the gospel truth .

This book , Sixgun Cartridges & Loads by Elmer Keith , has been reprinted and is available in hardcover $19.99 or soft cover $9.99 from Amazon and Barnes & Nobel . This information has been expert tested and you can bank on it .

I air cool my boolits . If I want harder boolits I use a harder alloy . I have done heat treating , with a oven and then cold water quenching ...but that's a lot of work when lineotype is so readily
available .
I've been doing this 50+ years also...learned a thing or two the hard way .
Read Elmer and pay attention .
Gary

[rockrat]

For over about 1500fps, I water drop and usually air cool for slower speeds

[lightman]

I'm an air cool guy! I've never had the need to water cool my boolits.

[Dieselhorses]

I'm an air cool guy! I've never had the need to water cool my boolits.



^^^What HE said^^^

PC'ing makes it all better, never a issue with leading.

[Bookworm]

I tried water quenching CWW for 41 Mag loads. The barrel leaded badly.
I took the entire batch of quenched boolits, stood them on a tray and heated them to 425 for 30 minutes. Turned off the oven and let the whole thing cool slowly.

No more leading in the 41 Mag.

No more water quenching for me.

[ShooterAZ]

I'm in the air cooled camp too. If I want a harder alloy, I will blend it to match my needs. As Outpost75 mentioned, really hard alloys aren't needed and most of the time not even wanted for pistol calibers. BHN 8-10 works perfectly for me in handguns. For HV rifles, BHN 15 has been adequate for my needs. Either Lyman #2, or 75% WW to 25% Linotype will get you to that hardness without water dropping. Oven quenching will get me to BHN 22-24 with these same rifle alloys, but there really isn't much of a need for it IMHO. For a rifle hunting alloy, I follow Larry Gibson's advice of 50/50 WW/PB +2% tin. It hangs together well, even if hitting bone.

[winelover]

I air cool every bullet I cast. When I want a harder alloy, for semi-auto rifles/carbines, I heat treat them. This is done after installing the gas check and running through the sizer.

Lube is applied, with an oversize die, after bullets are cool (ice water quench) and dried.


Winelover

[DonH]

The only thing I disagree with Elmer Kieth on here is required hardness of bullets for semiautomatic pistols. Really hard (lino-hard) bullets won't hurt and may be necessary in some milsurp semi auto pistols but I have fired many thousands of .45 swc bullets from 1911s that were coww and softer with no problems or leading. A large percentage of those have been coww/range lead mix no harder than 8-9 gun. Admittedly all were fired in bullseye comp or practice, at mid-range velocity and accuracy good enough to clean targets handily.
I will concede that for hardball loads in rough unturned pistols linotype might be cheap insurance.

[OS OK]

One of your fellow Canucksters has done a lot of testing regarding water quenching...I found this video interesting...

Does Cast Bullet Hardness change after Powder Coating?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fbjs-lErL0

This is his YouTube channel, there are several more videos along these lines too...
https://www.youtube.com/user/TATVCanada/videos

[mdi]

One thought; Harder ain't necessarily better. The hardest alloy normally use is Lyman #2, and that's mostly for a coupe molds that like it better than my "mystery metal" (roughly 10 BHN). I rarely quote celebrities but I have read and used some of Keith's methods, and 20-1 and 16-1 (approx. 10-11 BHN) have worked well in most of my casting.

[srk]

I have read Elmers book. I cast mostly, 90% for rifle. I am going to try and go back to air cooling as a lot of this is starting to jog my memory. My lead I get is from a friend of mine, who has his own buisness selling cast bullets amungst other reloading supplies, and has been around for over 40years. So I know the lead is good, as he does rifle and pistol bullets. He once referred to water quenching, now that I think of it, but I believe he was referring to pistol bullets only. Cant remember.
Anyways thanks for all your in-put guys!
Cheers
Sean

[fredj338]

I am an air cool guy. For most handgun apps, air cooled range scrap is fine. If I want to run harder, water dropping is an option to adding more tin/antimony. Mostly though, just not needed.

[Kraschenbirn]

Once upon a time, I water-quenched straight COWW +2% Sn for heavy 'magnum' loads but, over the years, I've drifted away from the "more powder, bigger bullets" thing and, now, air-cool and powder coat everything except the 30-1 boolits cast for my BPCRs.

Bill

[gnoahhh]

I agree with Outpost's recommendations also. I haven't water dropped or heat treated a bullet since the early 90's. What a waste of time and effort, IMO. Especially at the OP's stated velocity level of 1200-1400fps, a hard bullet may well be a detriment compared to a soft one.

When casting for "high velocity" use, ie: for in the Garand or somesuch, I simply up the game with type metal to create a hard bullet alloy. With the burgeoning disappearance of COWW's from the "Take 'em just gettem outta here" level of cheapness, it's no longer as expedient as it once was to use that alloy and water quench/heat treat for hardness- it's almost as cheap (and less hassle) to just concoct an alloy with expensive type metal and soft lead.

[Cherokee]

In 40 years of casting, I've never water cooled. Air cooled bullets from 25 ACP to 30/06, rifles, pistols, revolvers. Never saw the need, fit is most important.

[gnostic]

I WD my all of my cast bullets, because less expensive range scrap dropped in cold water, shoots as well as more expensive harder metal. Also, I get fewer damaged bullets when WD, in a shorter period of time...

[44Blam]

I like to PC my boolits. So, I water drop from the PC tray while the boolits are still hot.
But, I do not water drop from the mold. It creates contaminants that interfere with the PC process...
After PCing, I usually wait for a week or so at least before shooting.

[Walks]

I water drop, always have.

55+yrs. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[RMc]

The article linked below contains a detailed guide to heat treating various lead alloys, as well as a discussion of the effect of direct from the mold water quenching.


Heat Treating Lead/Antimony/Arsenic Alloys

http://www.lasc.us/heattreat.htm

[fredj338]

I like to PC my boolits. So, I water drop from the PC tray while the boolits are still hot.
But, I do not water drop from the mold. It creates contaminants that interfere with the PC process...
After PCing, I usually wait for a week or so at least before shooting.
This is what I do as well with PC. It gives a little BHN bump, like 2-3, probably mostly at the surface, which is fine, where my rifling hits. Those that water drop out of the mold then PC for 15-20m & aircool are probably negating the water drop out of the mold??