.45-70 too short?

[iwottopq]

Hello go all.
Today I was reloading some .45-70 ammo wigh 60 grains of FFg Chdddite BP. When inserted the bullets the ammo appears to shorts, about 63 millimeters. The bullet is Lee C457-500-F that weights about 491 our of the mold and then PC.
Questions:
This ammo is too short?
The BP in the case (Hornady) is too compressed?
Is it dangerous to shoot?
Thanks in advance for your help...
Ciao
Nino

[Butler Ford]

I would not shoot that load.

[rfd]

that lee bullet is a gas check, correct? is that real black powder or a substitute? i'm not sure what you've built but have you first created a dummy cartridge to check the OAL and where the bullet sits at or before the lands? once that's been created, and the dummy chambers well, build your real cartridges.

[iwottopq]

that lee bullet is a gas check, correct? Yes, it is a gas check bullet is that real black powder or a substitute? It is a real black powder i'm not sure what you've built but have you first created a dummy cartridge to check the OAL and where the bullet sits at or before the lands? once that's been created, and the dummy chambers well, build your real cartridges.
Hello...in bold characters some answers...and of I made a cartridge more long it don't enter in the chamber. The rifle is a Pedersoli 1873 Sharps...

[iwottopq]

I would not shoot that load.

Why???

[rfd]

Hello...in bold characters some answers...and of I made a cartridge more long it don't enter in the chamber. The rifle is a Pedersoli 1873 Sharps...

have you ever reloaded cartridges before? if so, you MUST at least make up a dummy cartridge that will chamber well in your gun. that you built a cartridge that is too long and will not chamber, means at least take that cartridge back to your seating die and push in the bullet a scant amount more until it chambers in your gun. that will be a cartridge OAL that will allow real cartridges to chamber and fire.

[iwottopq]

have you ever reloaded cartridges before? if so, you MUST at least make up a dummy cartridge that will chamber well in your gun. that you built a cartridge that is too long and will not chamber, means at least take that cartridge back to your seating die and push in the bullet a scant amount more until it chambers in your gun. that will be a cartridge OAL that will allow real cartridges to chamber and fire.

Hello.
Are about 35 years that I reload all calibers that I shoot...but I have little experience with the black powder in metallic case. I shoot also with muzzleloader...
The question is not the COL but the fact that the BP is, I think, too compressed...and this is my pain...

[Edward]

Hello.
Are about 35 years that I reload all calibers that I shoot...but I have little experience with the black powder in metallic case. I shoot also with muzzleloader...
The question is not the COL but the fact that the BP is, I think, too compressed...and this is my pain...

The fact is loading black powder is a whole different program having some major differences with your experience muzzle loaders do not apply. Get a good book on loading cartridge with black and your problem goes away ,seriously/Ed

[rfd]

what ed said. you're thinking about white powder when indeed it's black.

YES, THE PROBLEM IS OAL.

the easy cheap way is to incrementally seat a bullet in a case until the cartridge chambers well. measure the depth the bullet went into the case. the rest of the case space is how much room there is to add powder and a wad - you are using a wad? all of this is because we don't want any black powder air space, which means adding at least a little bit of powder compression. so your first poster was right - i wouldn't shoot the cartridge you just built, it's probably all wrong.

[oldred]

Maybe I'm all wrong but I seem to have a different take on the original post? Are we talking about a cartridge that is over-all too long or is it about those too short HORNADY cases? Is the OP aware that Hornady cases are shorter than "normal" 45/70 cases? I didn't see anywhere he said the round would not chamber but rather my take is that he can't get the bullet to seat properly on the 60 grain charge.

[RedlegEd]

Hello Nino!
Please understand the posters here are not being difficult or critical, rather they are concerned for your safety. Perhaps you could provide us with more detail such as the length of the Hornady cases you are using, the length of your bullet, the amount of compression, are you using a drop tube, are you using an over-powder wad or grease wad? Also, in your OP, you mentioned PC. Are you Powder Coating these bullets? Oldred is correct in that Hornady cases tend to be shorter than normal. The standard trimmed length of a .45-70 case should be 2.105 inches (53.5 mm), and the overall cartridge length 2.550 inches (64.8 mm) (SAAMI spec - yours might be longer depending on the throat of your rifle.) I also agree with Edward to get a book on Black Powder Cartridge Rifle loading, or you can start by reading this from the BPCR.net website. (https://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/bp_cartridge_reloading_dick_trenk.htm) Until then, I would agree with the other posters not to shoot this ammunition. Ed

[FLINTNFIRE]

oldred is right the hornady brass is short and there is your biggest problem , they are pushing there bullet that needs a shorter case , buy starline brass or reduce powder to the right compression .

[Larry Gibson]

Yes, oldred is correct. Hornady cases are too short as they are made for use with the flex tip jacketed bullet.

[iwottopq]

The fact is loading black powder is a whole different program having some major differences with your experience muzzle loaders do not apply. Get a good book on loading cartridge with black and your problem goes away ,seriously/Ed

Hello.
Thanks for your advice but...but...in my home language, Italian, there are not good books on loading black powder and again less on the BPCR...and the best titles are made by you Americans but are so hard to find in my country. And this is a great problem for me...
I have find some on the web but I am a slow reader because my English is a scholastic English and I have some experience as a ham radio operator...
Sorry for the long thread...
Ciao
Nino

[iwottopq]

The fact is loading black powder is a whole different program having some major differences with your experience muzzle loaders do not apply. (for this reason I asked on this forum that I consider the best on the web Get a good book on loading cartridge with black and your problem goes away ,seriously/Ed

Hello...in bold characters a little reply...

[iwottopq]

...and this is the only ammo that I loaded and below a bullet...
You can note how the bullet is in the case...

[Dan Cash]

...and this is the only ammo that I loaded and below a bullet...
You can note how the bullet is in the case...

Even with a short case, you can make ammo. More of the bullet will be sticking out and you may have leading. As long as the base of the bullet is seated firmly on the powder charge, even if the black powder is highly compressed, there is no danger, especially not from 60 grains of black powder. I note that your bullet is powder coated, a condition which will give bad results with black powder. The bullet must be greased or a grease wad placed under the bullet but over the powder to keep the residue of firing soft.

[rfd]

as long as the case itself will chamber well, there is no pressing concern with its length, other than consistent performance accuracy.

the precepts of loading black powder cartridges starts and ends with no appreciable air space in the case. the rest will dictate performance and not safety to the gun or its shooter. for a groove loaded lubed bullet, this demands identifying the completed cartridge's max OAL. this is why we build a dummy cartridge, or use a hornady OAL comparatof, or one of many other OAL determining methods. when a dummy cartridge chambers well, simple measurements will dictate the case space available under the bullet. fill the case to that predetermined measurement, add a wad, compress back to that predetermined measurement, seat the lubed bullet. then load development can begin (if need be).

[Don McDowell]

Yes, oldred is correct. Hornady cases are too short as they are made for use with the flex tip jacketed bullet.

If he is purchasing Hornady component cases they are NOT to short, they are 2.1 inches long, and probably the best cases available for blackpowder loading the 45-70.

[oldred]

If he is purchasing Hornady component cases they are NOT to short, they are 2.1 inches long, and probably the best cases available for blackpowder loading the 45-70.

I have some Hornady 45/70 brass that is indeed full length and several boxes of empties I was recently given that are too short, the short ones are fired flex tip rounds that were given to me by a friend who does not reload and the full length were also previously fired rounds of unknown origin (other than being Hornady) that were purchased at a gun show. So yes there are indeed two very different case lengths manufactured by Hornady and apparently the only noticeable difference is the length, even the head stamps appear to be the same. I probably should have mentioned this in my reply, I didn't mean to imply that all Hornady 45/70 brass was short just that from his description of the problem and the fact he mentioned using Hornady brass I "assumed" that the very common short version of the brass could very well be the problem.

[Don McDowell]

The lever evolution factory brass is indeed shorter than the standard saami spec 45-70 brass

[mazo kid]

You will not be happy shooting PC boolits with black powder!

[Carrier]

...and this is the only ammo that I loaded and below a bullet...
You can note how the bullet is in the case...

I shoot powder coated bullets out of my Trapdoor with smokeless and with Goex. But you have to lube them if using black powder.

[mazo kid]

Nino, in my opinion, if the cartridges you loaded will chamber in your rifle, they will be safe to shoot. 60 grains of ffg black powder is 60 grains whether it is heavily compressed or only slightly compressed. Not like smokeless powder where pressures will be greatly increased.

[Wayne Smith]

1) you cannot compress black powder too much - you will bulge the case first, i.e. push the sides out from the pressure.

2) if you can get the cartridge in your chamber it will safely fire. If you can't chamber it find out why and change that.

[mehavey]

That 187(4) Sharps will eat any (true) Black Powder load you can fill/stuff/compress into the case.

[Tom Herman]

Today I was reloading some .45-70 ammo wigh 60 grains of FFg Chdddite BP.
Ciao
Nino

Nino,

Are you using a true Black Powder (an old formula powder as used in the 1800's and before, made of Potassium Nitrate, Sulfur, and charcoal), or a newer SMOKELESS powder that is derived from Nitrocellulose/Nitroglycerine?
I looked up the Cheddite page, and couldn't see any black powder offered, only modern smokeless.
If you are using a smokeless powder, and 60 grains of it, you most likely have a very dangerous load.
I would NOT shoot anything until you have read up or studied a bit more to make SURE that what you are using is safe.
Best of Luck!

-Tom

[greenjoytj]

The OP obviously wasn’t following a published load recipe for 45-70.
A simple google search for an image of a loaded 45-70 cartridge shows more bullet outside the case. And powder coated, with BP? Well maybe for one shot.

[TaylorS]

The bullet seated in the picture looks short to me but as others have said if it will chamber then it’s safe with real black powder. I run a 405gr Lyman bullet on 56 gr of ffg at whatever the max OAL is for that bullet is. I also use .060” of card wad between bullet and powder. It’s a nice accurate round that doesn’t kick the poo out of me. I think the only problem you’ll have is fouling from your powder coat.


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[Washington1331]

I've never heard of Cheddite making black powder. First I'd make sure that the powder that you're using is real black powder and not a subsitute.

If it is real black powder, I wouldn't worry about shooting it as Pedersoli proofs the gun with smokeless powder.

I'll post script that statement with if the powder is indeed FFG and not FFFFG. FFFFG will cause significant pressure issues, and may result in you or others enjoying a long visit with Saint Peter.

I would recomend that you invest in some good lube for those powder coated bullets. You can make a pretty good basic lube with about 50% bee's wax, and 50% olive oil by volume.

Good luck.

BT

I'll try my hand at translation into Italian... all be it probably totally incorrectly. Thanks Google Translate.

--------------------------------

Non ho mai sentito parlare di Cheddite che produce polvere nera. In primo luogo mi assicurerei che la polvere che stai usando sia vera polvere nera e non un subsitute.

Se fosse vera polvere nera, non mi preoccuperei di spararla come Pedersoli prova la pistola con polvere senza fumo.

Io posto script che dichiarazione con se la polvere è davvero FFG e non FFFFG. FFFFG causerà notevoli problemi di pressione e potrebbe comportare una lunga visita con San Pietro.

Vi consiglio di investire in qualche buon lubrificante per quei proiettili rivestiti in polvere. Si può fare un lubrificante di base abbastanza buono con circa 50% cera d'api, e 50% di olio d'oliva per volume.

Buona Fortuna.