Shiloh and c sharps shooting into the pool

[ian45662]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190919/b9bfef68f86a8fa3dc80e363ad309a1d.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190919/8fb85ffb0b86030a86b1719d6a5484d7.jpg. Shot the Shiloh and the c sharps into the pool. The standing bullets the one on the far right is the c sharps. The other 2 are Shiloh. The bullet on the c sharps is perfect imo as far as patch length. The Shiloh with its tighter bore is bumping up much farther than the c sharps. We lengthened the patches for the Shiloh and have them where we want them now. Also pictures are bullet bases. All 3 were shot out of the Shiloh. We experimented with fold over. You can see the bullet with the most fold over has the most finning. The bullet with the least amount of fold over has the flattest and most crisp base.


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[Old-Win]

Ian, can you tell us what the lead tin mix is, how much powder and what for wad?

[BrentD]

Who knew pool shooting could be so interesting? Do you need a tag for hunting pools? :)

Those fold under results are really intriguing, and surprising. I would not have expected that. Did you replicate that by any chance?

[LynC2]

Very interesting and informative. It almost makes me wish I had a pool. Maybe make friends with someone in the neighborhood with one. :)

[ian45662]

Brent I had to buy my tag at the West Virginia DNR [emoji12]. We shot a couple different bullets into the pool with the shorter fold over. The bases got better as the amount fold over decreased. The very best base was one with barley any fold over at all but that would be hard to do every time. I am just going to keep the fold over at a minimum from now on.


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[ian45662]

Old-win the lead is 14:1. 83 grains of Swiss 1.5 and a .060 polly wad


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[rfd]

truly interesting, thank you for sharing! 248530

[BrentD]

Ian, remind us (or at least me) of what your chamber is in the Sharps.

I have some snow bank bullet bases to post in comparison.

[ian45662]

My sharps is the standard Shiloh chamber. It has the 45 degree from the case mouth to a freebore that’s .050 long with a diameter of .460. That goes to a 1.5 degree lead


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[ian45662]

Case mouth diameter is .481


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[rfd]

ian, does the bump up before the patching starts cause leading?

248535

[ian45662]

Yes. I have been getting some leading issues. I wasn’t sure if it was patch length or gas cutting. Now I know it was patch length. We shot some of the longer patches and they didn’t lead at all.


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[ian45662]

The shorter ones that my highwall likes so well lead the hell out of the Shiloh. Easy fix though


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[BrentD]

These are 16:1 alloy shot into a snowbank this winter.

https://i.imgur.com/c5Gpl0A.jpg

[ian45662]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190920/1871eda710f44b099ea0ab995004218f.jpg you using about that much overlap? Doesn’t look like your getting much finning at all.


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[BrentD]

yup. About that much overlap on those bullets (usually it's less), and almost zero finning.

[rfd]

Yes. I have been getting some leading issues. I wasn’t sure if it was patch length or gas cutting. Now I know it was patch length. We shot some of the longer patches and they didn’t lead at all.

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how are you patching, dry or wet?

so, the new longer patches are gonna hafta go past the ogive, past the parallel of the bullet's shank and into the nose taper - any issues with that kinda loose front patching (particularly if it's dry)?

[ian45662]

Brent could that have something to do with the different chambers we are using then? Rfd I wet patch. I initially went .080
Longer than my highwall and after the testing we determined they need to go an additional .040. I have a silhouette shoot next weekend. We will see what happens.


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[BrentD]

Might be chamber differences. Yours bumps up pretty large and then swages down a lot as the bullet starts forward. Mine, not so much, if at all.

https://i.imgur.com/hI9fy6c.jpg

[ian45662]

It will be interesting if the shorter overlap equates to better accuracy or no difference


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[BrentD]

Well, whatever you are doing, keep doing it. But I don't think there is any chance that longer overlap will shoot better, so shorter will be at least as good, maybe better, probably not measurably so however.

Do you know about Chase patches?

[Lead pot]

I find the finning is more a diameter problem patched or naked and the alloy temper.
The type of throat/freebore/45 degree or funnel from the case wall into the leads. A generous chamber lets the bullet obturate more then it gets swaged back down is a major cause of finning what I see with recovered bullets.
The amount of under lap of the bullet does not seem to effect the base edges but it does make a difference with accuracy from what I found. I think the patch gets blown off sooner when its just over the edge with a lot of bare lead showing. I tested this shooting in the shed to see the difference with no winds blowing the paper around. It makes a difference from inside 8 feet from the muzzle with bare lead showing under the base to 26-32 feet when the base is covered.

[ian45662]

We shot several rounds into the pool using less and less over lap. The les we used the better the bases kept getting. The best was with just a hair of fold over but I don’t want to try and do that. I am going to try and settle for something around half of what I have now with a .040 taller patch and see what happens. It’s yet to be seen how much of a difference the over lap will have in accuracy but in my Shiloh the less overlap I have the better the base looks. I can say that for sure after seeing the tests we did.


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[BrentD]

Better looking bases can not be bad. THey might not be better, but they can't be worse, so definitely go for it.

But look up a Chase patch - it uses NO fold under the bullet at all.

[ian45662]

I have only heard of chase patch but don’t know much about it.


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[Lead pot]

:) I just reclaimed two 5 gallon buckets full of recovered snow bullets all of those are 10# bricks :)
248539
But I saved some of last winters bullets I haven't taken the time to measure the results yet. Here are some with the bases fully covered and two have a chase wrapped and some with lead showing. The 6 on the left are .50-90 bullets with 1/20 alloy the base covered with the patch.
Then some 1/19 .40/65 bullets. Row #5 are .40-65 1/20 the first two from the bottom was chase patched. Then some .45-70 with 1/16 and 1/13 alloy. I don't see a finning problem with my test rounds unless I have a over wide diameter bullet or soft wads under a bullet. Wads make a difference.
248538

My snow bank shooting is over LOL........Kurt

[ian45662]

I am using polly wads. Are you using a groove diameter chamber or a PP chamber?


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[ian45662]

My main concern is the leading I have been getting. I thought the .080” taller patches fixed it and some groups I shot with them showed real promise. I just won a long range match with the .080” taller patches but I was still getting the leading. Not as bad as it was but it’s still there.


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[rfd]

i did get a tad of leading with PPBs in generous greaser chambers, but in my current PPB chamber i get zero leading. i dry wrap to about .030" past the ogive, and the double wrap of 9# fidelity covers about 1/3rd of the PPB's base. PPBs are in the loaded case .100" total. i have no current way to recover intact slicks, but i should experiment with covering less of the base and see what it does with grouping.

curious about how you did the pool shooting and the water depth.

[ian45662]

My other 2 rifles I get 0 leading and after we made the patches longer the leading seemed to disappear so that is encouraging. The pool is 8’ deep. I have a video of me shooting my cpa into it. I’ll see if I can upload it.


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[Lead pot]

I am using polly wads. Are you using a groove diameter chamber or a PP chamber?


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The .50 and the .45-70 were shot with the standard Shiloh chamber. The .40's were shot with the CPA Douglas barrel that has an undersizes bore and shallow grooves but it was cut with my tight reamer that has a 4 degree/1.5 degree compound funnel type throat. No 45 degree chamber end. It will just chamber a bore diameter PP bullet.

Those three bullets of yours are very good. That little lead exposed to a dry bore might collect on the sharp edges.
The more tin in the mix the better the chances that the bore will pick it up. Lead is sort of a lubricant on it's own but when you add tin it is a solder and it's the tin that does the damage. Stick a nail in a pot of molten lead and see how much sticks on it then stick the nail in the pot of your 1/14 T/L alloy and see what is left on it.

During your next casting session take a bullet you just cast, close the empty mould block and insert the bullet base first back into the mould by it's own weight and let it drop. If the cavity is round it will stop at the point where the shank meets the ogive. Take a sharp knife and scratch a mark on the bullet at the block level. This is where I hold my patch.
I put a very small dimple where the shank meets the ogive and this is where I hold my patch. All bullets are patched identical and will have the same amount of drag in the bore.
The photo I was testing alloy temper with different wads. Soft wads like cork or felt makes a difference with the amount of bullet obturation using the same powder charge.

By the way! warm up the nail before sticking it in the pot :)

Just passing time in the winter :D

248546 248545

[ian45662]

I am using a standard groove diameter chamber in all 3 of the rifles I shoot pp in.


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[Distant Thunder]

I wonder if a 2-diameter PPB would be any different? There is some interesting experiments out there for anyone with time and interest to pursue them. I hope to have more time for that kind of stuff next year, but only time will tell.

I have not been able to picture in my mind why less fold over would cause less finning and vice versa?

All very interesting though. It is clear that each rifle is different and adjustments must be made to achieve the best accuracy from each. I sure noticed that when I change from my Shiloh .45-90 to my Hepburn .45-70. Different barrel makers and different chambers, not to mention different cartridges. In the end both shot very well once I tailored the loads to each.

[Yellowhouse]

Kirk, thanks for that little trick on inserting the bullet back into the mold. I suppose I oughta avoid using bare fingers to do it.:smile:

[BrentD]

Kirk, thanks for that little trick on inserting the bullet back into the mold. I suppose I oughta avoid using bare fingers to do it.:smile:

yellowhouse, you can use a cold bullet. And if you scratch the mould around the base of the reversed bullet, you will have that line captured on each and every bullet thereafter. Makes it very easy to line up the patch.

[Huvius]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190919/b9bfef68f86a8fa3dc80e363ad309a1d.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190919/8fb85ffb0b86030a86b1719d6a5484d7.jpg.

I’ve read this post and pondered over it quite a bit over the last couple years.
Do you have good pics of your boolit before firing?
I’ve been dubious on the subject of nose slump and those projectiles, which have not only been propelled down a barrel but also abruptly slowed in a much more dense environment - water - look to be very well shaped.

[ian45662]

I’ve read this post and pondered over it quite a bit over the last couple years.
Do you have good pics of your boolit before firing?
I’ve been dubious on the subject of nose slump and those projectiles, which have not only been propelled down a barrel but also abruptly slowed in a much more dense environment - water - look to be very well shaped.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221121/8fdd1dfdc5316d83f4a4d5f630583017.jpg


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[stubshaft]

Very interesting!

[Lincoln Creek]

Every time I am wrapping bullets I get to wondering why the base fold over? I ask myself I wonder what happens if there is no food over but I’ve never tried it. Has anyone tried it?

[BrentD]

Every time I am wrapping bullets I get to wondering why the base fold over? I ask myself I wonder what happens if there is no food over but I’ve never tried it. Has anyone tried it?

works fine, but hard to handle. See Chase Patches - which have zero fold over, and are only 1 wrap.