What's a better deer rifle? .357 Magnum or 45 Long Colt?

[huntersdog]

What's a better deer rifle? .357 Magnum or 45 Long Colt?
What bullet would you recommend?
Thanks

[MT Chambers]

If it's a gun that can take warm .45 Colt loads then it's the .45 for sure, neither is my first choice for deer.

[huntersdog]

If it's a gun that can take warm .45 Colt loads then it's the .45 for sure, neither is my first choice for deer.
They are both Rossi rifles.

[osteodoc08]

Whichever the shooter is most accurate and has confidence with. I’d personally choose 45 Colt.

[Greg S]

Distance dependant with 357. Run with a 170+ in the 357 and your good. As above, shot placement trumps alot. The 45 can be pushed pretty hard in an 1892 action but if ya can't hit the barn door...

I consider both brush guns and i'm only confident with the irons to about 80 yards.

[Tracy]

Either of the two would be great. I chose .45 Colt, but if range extends beyond 100 to about 150 yards .357 would be better. The Rossi .357 is greatly underestimated by those who haven't loaded for one. It will do just about anything a .30-30 will do, with the same bullet weights.

[NSB]

I've taken over fifty deer with the .357mag with just the handgun alone. Another nine or ten with a Marlin lever gun and a Low Wall. I have yet to lose even one deer with the .357mag and only lost one with the handgun and that was with a full power 44mag load.....just made a bad shot. It's all about shot placement, not power. FWIW, my longest shot with the .357mag was 167 yards (not recommended, too much velocity loss and virtually no expansion). Either would be equally effective if the bullet is put in the vitals. I prefer the .357mag simply because I own several guns in that caliber and they shoot fantastic. It's just my favorite handgun cartridge.

[buckshotshoey]

Either of the two would be great. I chose .45 Colt, but if range extends beyond 100 to about 150 yards .357 would be better. The Rossi .357 is greatly underestimated by those who haven't loaded for one. It will do just about anything a .30-30 will do, with the same bullet weights.
Sorry but have to disagree. The .357 and the .45LC are both adequate deer cartridges, but when you look at the energy retention of the. 357 at 100 yards, I wouldn't consider a .357 beyond 100yards for deer. For the same reason I wouldn't try to drive a fence post with a 6 oz ball peen hammer.

A 287 gr Ranch Dog still retains over 1000 ft lbs at 150 yards. So I think the .45LC the better choice.

[NSB]

Sorry but have to disagree. The .357 and the .45LC are both adequate deer cartridges, but when you look at the energy retention of the. 357 at 100 yards, I wouldn't consider a .357 beyond 100yards for deer. For the same reason I wouldn't try to drive a fence post with a 6 oz ball peen hammer.

A 287 gr Ranch Dog still retains over 1000 ft lbs at 150 yards. So I think the .45LC the better choice.
EXPERIENCE will show that it's where the bullet hits that kills. Neither cartridge is a long range cartridge....or shouldn't be. If you're making a choice on which to use, look at how well the gun shoots, how well you can shoot the gun, and don't count on energy to get the job where poor marksmanship is a possibility, or the shots to far for the gun.

[GhostHawk]

I agree with NSB on both his posts.

That being said I voted .45 for one reason. All else being equal, larger bore = larger bullet = bigger hole and more likely to go straight through both sides.

Bullet placement is king, bullet size is prince.

[Ramjet-SS]

Great advice bullet placement first. Both will cleanly take deer but I would prefer the 45 colt as it can be loaded pretty good in a lever action other than the original or replicas. That said wider meplat and heavier boolits can make up for a shot slightly off its mark in that penetration is king.

[buckshotshoey]

EXPERIENCE will show that it's where the bullet hits that kills. Neither cartridge is a long range cartridge....or shouldn't be. If you're making a choice on which to use, look at how well the gun shoots, how well you can shoot the gun, and don't count on energy to get the job where poor marksmanship is a possibility, or the shots to far for the gun.

Really? When did this become an accuracy issue? Both are inherently accurate. OF COURSE shot placement is primary. No matter WHAT cartridges you are using. That is fact. All I am saying is the 45LC is better in a cross wind and at ranges of 100 to 150 yards. And I wouldn't consider either one of these a heavy kicker (recoil). But someone else might.

I've been doing this for 45 years. There is no need to talk to me about experience. And my experience tells me limit the .357 to 100 yards, and the 45 LC to 150 yards. The chances of wounding go up substantially beyond these parameters.

[dverna]

Regrettably, marksmanship is sorely lacking in general...so touting shot placement is moot. A lot of folks think they are good shots until they need to prove it.

My opinion WRT pistol calibers, is that most "hunters" (as opposed to shooters) are best served with a large bullet that expands and will still go through a deer. Practice shooting from field positions. Your effective range is that distance at which you can hit a 6" target every shot. Most people will shoot far worse in the field under stress and groups will be twice the size...so a hit in the 12" kill area of a deer is highly likely at "their" effective range. (The effective range of the caliber will generally be longer)

For a shooter, (aka marksman) caliber is less important and effective range is greater.

To answer the question, in my environment, I would select the .357 for its higher velocity as it is more forgiving of errors in range estimation. If I was shooting from a blind or stand, where range will be short, I would go with the .45LC.

I have no need to use a pistol caliber (straight wall cartridge restriction) or to prove my marksmanship abilities (plenty of trinkets already). So it makes no sense to use a pistol caliber lever action to hunt deer. A .308 is not necessary but what I use. Lever action pistol caliber rifles are my fun guns and HAR's (Hillbilly Assault Rifles) if/when AR's are banned.

[pertnear]

.45 LC - punches a bigger hole.

[brass410]

which ever one you have, the old adage is, that beware the owner of one gun he will definitely know how to use it. This would apply, learn the limits and stay within them you'll do fine. The only thoughts relative are buy the firearm that best fits the occasion, meaning if your going to shoot across a 200yard beanfield neither of the two are going to cut the mustard, however if its dense growth where you hunt and shots will be rarely 50-100 yards they will work. Marksmanship also scores high here as well.

[sac]

I use a marlin 1894 in 45 and use the RCBS 45-270 saa. Used it the first time last year with very good results.

[frogleg]

I get more Ring and Movement from my 8" steel plate at 80yrds with the 45 colt than the 357 mag :popcorn: but I use my 30/30 for Deer:coffee:
But feel both would work within their limitations but I would use the 45. with 250gr to 80yrds JMHO.

[OutHuntn84]

I've dropped plenty of deer with a 357 Mag and that would be my personal preference. Both would make excellent brush guns.

[sac]

Here is a good read on this topic, http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm

[pworley1]

I have both, and both do a good job as a brush gun. I feel that the 45 lc has a little edge over all.

[Randy Bohannon]

Are we shooting little W.V. Whitetails or big North woods Whitetails ? Little Blacktail deer or big Mule Deer ? .357 is not even in the conversation for big deer in my selection of a 'Deer Rifle'.

[cwlongshot]

I have used both for decades. Handguns and rifles. I like the 45 Colt & feel 150 is a very long distance for either one!

CW

[Preacher Jim]

I just found out my old 92in 44-40 that I killed many deer with as a youth should not have done as well as it did. Never lost one longest one went was 43 paces. But we were taught to not shoot unless we had a good shot.

[Bazoo]

Personally, I'd look not at the result on deer, as both have been used enough to verify both are effective, but rather I'd ask a series of peripheral questions.

Will it be a reloading only gun? 357 is much cheaper to buy than 45 colt. Is money an issue? 38/357 is cheaper to reload for. Is there any known issues with the gun in either chambering? Are you set to load for either caliber already? Do you just want one caliber over the other?

[psweigle]

I use a ruger 77/357 for deer from 40-75 yards. Within that I use a Blackhawk. My load is a jacketed soft point of 158gr, or a rnfp cast boolit of the same weight. Both with a stiff charge of h110/296.

[M-Tecs]

I've shot deer with both and they both worked. That being said of the two I prefer the 45 Colt for deer.

[FergusonTO35]

If there is the possibility of having to use factory ammo, I would go with the .357. Most .45 Colt ammo is sedate cowboy type stuff. Not to say it couldn't work, but you would be negating much of the advantage of the larger cartridge. Of course, you can also use cheap and plentiful .38 Special for practice and small game in the .357.

[Jeff Michel]

If you do your part, it won't matter which one to 100 yards. Never had either stay in a deer NOE 360-180 or the NOE 454-280 both WFN and neither a hot load.

[jonp]

I've taken deer with both using a handgun and both work well within a reasonable distance. If I owned both I'd go with the 45LC. As I have Blackhawks in both calibers and I like to carry a pistol with a rifle when hunting that wouldn't really factor in unless I was worried about bear

[jonp]

Are we shooting little W.V. Whitetails or big North woods Whitetails ? Little Blacktail deer or big Mule Deer ? .357 is not even in the conversation for big deer in my selection of a 'Deer Rifle'.

How big? I took a 175lb whitetail with one shot using a 357Mag pistol at 35yrds. Broke the shoulder and penetrated both lungs. 200lb plus I'd be very, very careful with shot selection.

[Beagle333]

.........I voted .45 for one reason. All else being equal, larger bore = larger bullet = bigger hole and more likely to go straight through both sides.

Bullet placement is king, bullet size is prince.



Yep, this ^^^^^. 100%

[megasupermagnum]

Putting up comparisons like this always lack one crucial proponent. What loads are you looking to use? Are we talking SAMMI 357 magnum vs SAMMI 45 colt? If so it's not even a competition, the 357 magnum has the 45 colt beat and then some. Standard pressure 45 colt, with a 200 grain bullet, you would be looking at 1100-1200 fps or so in a rifle. With a 357 magnum you would be able to push into 1400-1500 fps, maybe even a tiny bit more. The 45 colt does have a diameter advantage, but I'm not convinced that directly translates to bigger holes without other compromises.

Of course if we are talking about "45 colt" loaded to 30,000+ PSI, then all bets are off.

[OverMax]

45 Colt will garner less blood shot tissue. Can't say the same about the 357. Keep in mind with such cartridges the hunter must know his shooting limits. Not knowing such limits he'd best prepare to carry a compass a roll of florescent tape and a flashlight with fresh battery's.
In this instance as far as my deer close range lever preference? 32 Special.

[Tracy]

Sorry but have to disagree. The .357 and the .45LC are both adequate deer cartridges, but when you look at the energy retention of the. 357 at 100 yards, I wouldn't consider a .357 beyond 100yards for deer. For the same reason I wouldn't try to drive a fence post with a 6 oz ball peen hammer.

A 287 gr Ranch Dog still retains over 1000 ft lbs at 150 yards. So I think the .45LC the better choice.

I'm not a fan of kinetic energy as an indicator of killing power. Let's look at some numbers for the .357. Buffalo Bore sells a load consisting of a 180 grain flat nose, gas checked bullet with a bc of .21 and muzzle velocity of 1851 fps from a Marlin with 18.5" barrel. Here it is: https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=100

I ran the numbers with an online ballistic calculator. The numbers agree with BB's published numbers. I just wanted more information with smaller steps. So here it is: http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php?t=52584be6

With a starting velocity of 1851 fps, it is still doing 1388 fps at 150 yards. I also noticed that with a 150 yard zero, the point of impact is within 3.15" from the muzzle to 175 yards, with 5 yard steps. At that range it is still doing 1324 fps. A 180 grain bullet at 1300+ fps will definitely kill a deer just fine.

I used that load as an example because the actual specs are published, but there are several 170+ grain cast bullets that can provide similar results.

[Tracy]

Here is a good read on this topic, http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm

Here's another good one, also by Paco: http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/357_magnum_and_the_literature.htm

[white eagle]

my personal take would be the 45 colt
long history,bigger hole whats not to like
45 colt baby!

[Drm50]

The 357mg is on the minimum end of deer cartridges no matter how you slice it. I have killed deer only with 357 and 45 revolvers. Never shot one with rifle in these calibers. All under 60 yds. I could have killed them with a 22 but that doesn't make a 22 a deer gun. Out of the two the 45 has the advantage. I have shot most of my handgun deer with a 44mg at same distances. I haven't killed a deer with 44 carbine either. I have a 1894 Marlin 44 but don't carry it for deer. If I'm going to carry a long gun I want the advantage of rifle calibers.

[Froogal]

EXPERIENCE will show that it's where the bullet hits that kills. Neither cartridge is a long range cartridge....or shouldn't be. If you're making a choice on which to use, look at how well the gun shoots, how well you can shoot the gun, and don't count on energy to get the job where poor marksmanship is a possibility, or the shots to far for the gun.

We can discuss this all day long, but basically you should use what suits you. I personally have witnessed a deer being taken with a simple, single shot, bolt action, 22. One shot, and the deer dropped.

[buckshotshoey]

I'm not a fan of kinetic energy as an indicator of killing power. Let's look at some numbers for the .357. Buffalo Bore sells a load consisting of a 180 grain flat nose, gas checked bullet with a bc of .21 and muzzle velocity of 1851 fps from a Marlin with 18.5" barrel. Here it is: https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=100

I ran the numbers with an online ballistic calculator. The numbers agree with BB's published numbers. I just wanted more information with smaller steps. So here it is: http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php?t=52584be6

With a starting velocity of 1851 fps, it is still doing 1388 fps at 150 yards. I also noticed that with a 150 yard zero, the point of impact is within 3.15" from the muzzle to 175 yards, with 5 yard steps. At that range it is still doing 1324 fps. A 180 grain bullet at 1300+ fps will definitely kill a deer just fine.

I used that load as an example because the actual specs are published, but there are several 170+ grain cast bullets that can provide similar results.

Not a fan of kinetic energy? Then what does the higher velocity give you? When you double the velocity of a mass, the energy increases 4 times.

Ok... now be fair. You have chosen high end .357 ammo to make your point. Do the same with high end Buffalo Bore .45 colt +P Deer Granades. Or some of the other offerings they have. Like the BUFFALO-BARNES LEAD-FREE .45 Colt +P Pistol and Handgun Ammo.

[444ttd]

well, since i can't have the 44 mag, i'll go with the 45 colt.

big holes lets the blood gushes out while the air goes in.

not a fan of kinetic energy- read my signature

[megasupermagnum]

Not a fan of kinetic energy? Then what does the higher velocity give you? When you double the velocity of a mass, the energy increases 4 times.

Ok... now be fair. You have chosen high end .357 ammo to make your point. Do the same with high end Buffalo Bore .45 colt +P Deer Granades. Or some of the other offerings they have. Like the BUFFALO-BARNES LEAD-FREE .45 Colt +P Pistol and Handgun Ammo.

How is comparing standard pressure 357 magnum to +P 45 colt fair? This is assuming Buffalo Bore is loading that load within SAMMI spec of 35,000 PSI. What if we load the 357 magnum to the old standard, or CIP standards of about 43,000 PSI?

45 colt can and has been loaded all the way up to 454 casull levels at 60,000 PSI as far as I know, although I do not consider even the magnum 35,000+ PSI loads a good idea. So where are we going to draw the line? Standard pressure 45 colt, as set by SAMMI is right at 45 ACP levels. 357 magnum smokes both of those cartridges in all categories, except you could have a slightly larger meplat on a solid bullet in a 45.

[M-Tecs]

The OP stated these are Rossi rifles. He didn't state if they are single shot or 92 Lever Guns but it is posted under lever guns so I am going with that.. Either way what is fair is to compare safe loads in the OPs firearm's for both he 357 and 45 Colt.

SAAMI for 45 Colt is 14,000PSI and 45 ACP is 21,000 PSI. SAAMI pressure is determined by the weakest firearms that will be commonly encountered.

In a Rossi 92 14,000 PSI is not even close to max.

CIP is a European Standard and pressures are given in bars. A bar is 100,000 Pascals or 0.1 Megapascals (MPa), which is 0.987 standard atmospheres, or 14.504 psi. So, multiply bars by that number to convert to psi.

If you are referring to CUP the method of testing changed the actual pressure did not.

Some interesting and informative discussion on 357 pressure changes here.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?386576-S-amp-W-Model-19-(K-frame-magnum)-longevity

On a side note the 2 deer I took with a 1873 Cattlemen in 45 Colt with a Lyman 454190 at around 800 FPS didn't make it 40 yards.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I would jump 'outside the box'...and choose a 41 Mag.
some folks like the 43 mag, but if you are considering a Levergun, the 43 just has so many issues that are solved with the 41.

[Tracy]

Not a fan of kinetic energy? Then what does the higher velocity give you? When you double the velocity of a mass, the energy increases 4 times.

Ok... now be fair. You have chosen high end .357 ammo to make your point. Do the same with high end Buffalo Bore .45 colt +P Deer Granades. Or some of the other offerings they have. Like the BUFFALO-BARNES LEAD-FREE .45 Colt +P Pistol and Handgun Ammo.

So, when you quoted 1000 fpe remaining energy at 150 yards (with no further data given) you were not using top-end loads?
If you recall my original post, I said that I chose the .45 Colt, but was also defending the .357 especially at longer range. So what is your point?

Over the years I have seen many people denigrate the .357 Magnum carbine by assuming handgun velocities, and with current low pressure SAAMI spec ammo at that. That Buffalo Bore ammo is not +P ammo; it is just loaded to original .357 pressures. I used it because there are actual published numbers from a carbine that I can point to; not because it's a special load. I've been loading .357 that way for decades for rifles, single and double action revolvers.

You don't have to convince me that .45 Colt is a good round; it's one of my favorites. But I just posted up some actual numbers to show that .357 Mag works extremely well in a rifle. All you've done is say "nuh-uh! .45 Colt does 1000 fpe at 150 yards!" No velocity, no load listed, no trajectory numbers, no real data.

[Cast_outlaw]

Ok so let’s look at it this way both 45, and 357 will take dear out to 100 yards no problem, providing if you do your part. Just remember you are the one carrying the gun and ammo in the bush, and have to comfortable with shooting it. the 357 will probably be a little lighter rifle, and lighter ammo for each round carried. as your hunting you probably won’t be carrying much ammo. So whatever one your more confident with is probably the best if you hit your mark.
Happy hunting
Cast outlaw

[buckshotshoey]

Read my first post.... both are good within their own limits. And its completely fair to quote +P loads. The Rossi will digest them and ask for more.

As for data, I have this, and can come up with more if you want it....

248549

Unfortunately it doesn't show the powder used. I will research that. And this one shows 1300 fps, and over 1000 fpe at 150. And take note it drops less then 6 inches. Bullet path... not bullet drop. I'm sure you know the difference.

I copied and pasted this from another forum. But the guy said it well...

"I have 4 5/8" and 7 1/2" Blackhawks in .45 Colt as well as a 20" Rossi Model 92 carbine, an Armi Sport Model 1892 take down rifle, and a Model 94 Trapper all in .45 Colt.

The Model 1892 is a very strong action. It was based on the Model 1886, but with a shorter bolt and shorter receiver, it's much stronger. In fact, it's been chambered in the .454 Casull which operates at 50,000 CUP - about 60,000 psi.

On the other hand, the 1873 Winchester uses a toggle design that works fine with the .44-40, .38-40 which operated at 13,000 and 14,000 CUP respectively. It, like the Model 1892, was never chambered in the .45 Colt, at least until the modern smokeless powder era, but the 1873 is strong enough to accommodate standard .45 Colt loads operating at 14,000 psi, as well as the 38 Special operating at 17,000 psi and the .38+P at 18,500 psi. The 1873 is chambered in .357 Magnum (35,000 psi) as well, but higher round counts will start to stretch the pin in the toggle and increase headspace. Given the larger case head of the .45 Colt, 23,000 psi Tier 2 .45 Colt loads would not be healthy for an 1873 and 32,000 psi Tier 3 loads would probably break one in a hurry.

You'll find rifle data for the .357 Magnum operating at 35,000 psi - with velocities around 1800 fps for 158 gr bullets and 2200 fps for 125 gr bullets in 20" barrels.

However, you won't find rifle data for the .45 Colt, due to the weakness of the 1873 rifles chambered for it. Published .45 Colt rifle data tends to use the same medium burning powders as non Ruger .45 Colt revolver data, with 255 gr bullet velocities around 1100 fps - about 200 fps faster than in a revolver.

In contrast, Ruger only revolver data uses slower powders like IMR 4227, Win 296 and 2400, and 250 gr velocities in the 1350-1450 fps range.

Given the strength of the Model 92 action, I use the same "Ruger Only" loads in my Model 92 rifles and carbines. 1800 fps in a 20" barrel is achievable with a 200 grain bullet, but the recoil is pretty fierce.

Long story short, you need to be very careful about Tier 2 and 3 loads in .45 Colt rifles, in large part because not all of them are created equal."

[DougGuy]

Nobody has much mentioned twist rate. Heavy boolits in the 45 NEED spin to stabilize. I wouldn't pick a slow spin barrel for a 45 Colt. Chiappa makes a levergun in 45 Colt with 1:20 twist, this would be a huge improvement over a slower twist IMHO. All of the Rossi barrels are 1:30 except for the 30-30 which is 1:12.

[megasupermagnum]

If you are willing to load to the Ruger/TC loads, then absolutely the 45 colt will beat the 357 magnum in all ways except ammo availability. Being reloaders this is no concern, and the rifles should be the same size/weight.

That's all I was asking as old cartridges like 45 colt, 44 special, 32-20, etc. were never intended to be loaded to what they are now. Other than the headstamp, I can hardly call a 45 colt loaded to 35K PSI or higher still a 45 colt. That is a wildcat in a 45 case.

I can get on board with +P, 23,000 psi. In that case it looks like that put it on par with 357 magnum with 200 grain bullets, plus has the diameter advantage. If you use heavier bullets, even better.

[sac]

If you are willing to load to the Ruger/TC loads, then absolutely the 45 colt will beat the 357 magnum in all ways except ammo availability. Being reloaders this is no concern, and the rifles should be the same size/weight.

That's all I was asking as old cartridges like 45 colt, 44 special, 32-20, etc. were never intended to be loaded to what they are now. Other than the headstamp, I can hardly call a 45 colt loaded to 35K PSI or higher still a 45 colt. That is a wildcat in a 45 case.

I can get on board with +P, 23,000 psi. In that case it looks like that put it on par with 357 magnum with 200 grain bullets, plus has the diameter advantage. If you use heavier bullets, even better.

This is from the hunting part of the board, try this if you think the 45 colt of back in the day is like the 44 spl. or 32-20. Fellers ... if in doubt about your 45 Colts, do yourselves a favor ... load the original Colt load;

... 40 grains of 2Fg Ol E powder or Swiss ( I have never used Swiss powder but have it on good authority that Swiss and Old E ste neck n neck for cleanliness and power )
... compressed so as to be able to seat your 255 grain cast boolit
... crimp them in the crimp groove so as to get the most and best ignition and burn from your powder
... primed with CCI or Federal large pistol primers ( magnum primers not needed )
... load 5 of these in a Colts or Ruger 45 Colt
... after squezzing off these first 5 rounds ... gently lay down yer shootin iron and recall that those loads were the FIRST 45 Colt loads circa 1873.

If these do not impress, maybe you do need those 500 S&W magnums ... but I think you will be very impressed and prolly be tellin the storie many times over!

[Drm50]

I have a S&W m25-5 83/8" tuned for cast 250gr RNFP original load duplication with Unique. Very accurate and as powerful as needed for most earth based creatures.

[beltfed]

I will stick with my Orig M92 Win, first yr production, cal 44WCF
Shot my second last buck with it at about 65 yds. One shot one kill.
bullet went thru heart/chest cavity. Deer went about 60-70yds and fell dead.
200gr cast HP/ 1330fps.
Energy is "whatever"
beltfed/arnie

[jonp]

I would jump 'outside the box'...and choose a 41 Mag.
some folks like the 43 mag, but if you are considering a Levergun, the 43 just has so many issues that are solved with the 41.

My favorite mag caliber. I'm with you on this one

[jonp]

Nobody has much mentioned twist rate. Heavy boolits in the 45 NEED spin to stabilize. I wouldn't pick a slow spin barrel for a 45 Colt. Chiappa makes a levergun in 45 Colt with 1:20 twist, this would be a huge improvement over a slower twist IMHO. All of the Rossi barrels are 1:30 except for the 30-30 which is 1:12.

You don't think you could get acceptable accuracy for a reasonable hunting distance with a 1:30 @ that velocity with a 45lc?

[megasupermagnum]

Well a 1:28 twist muzzleloader will stabilize a 45 caliber 255 grain bullet.

@sac, Even the wimpiest of 45 colts are still adequate deer rounds. If I had a 45 colt, it would see nothing but Goex! That said, the classic load of 250 grain bullet and 40 grain blackpowder produces just over 900 fps from a handgun. If ballistics by the inch is any standard, that puts it ballpark 1050-1100 fps from a rifle.

45 colt has never in it's history been the most powerful handgun. I believe the Colt Walker held that designation all the way up to the 357 magnum. Other than wildcats, the 357 magnum was the most powerful handgun in the world until the 44 magnum in 1955. The rest of the "magnum" craze is history.

Both are fine deer cartridges, especially in a carbine.

357 magnum is more powerful than 45 colt. 357 magnum is on par with 45 colt +P. If you need more power, I'll go with the rest and say get the 41 magnum.

[M-Tecs]

The most common high performance ammunition that is widely carried is Buffalo Bore. Using their data it's easy to compare.

Their most potent 357 load is BUFFALO BORE HEAVY 357 MAG 180 gr. JHP (1,500fps/M.E. 899 ft. lbs.)
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=541

Their most potent 45 Colt load is Heavy .45 Colt +P OUTDOORSMAN 325 gr. L.B.T.-L.F.N. @ 1,325 fps/M.E. 1,267 ft.lbs.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=38

On a different note I grew up in a small town. A couple of the LE were national level PPC shooters. I shot with them a lot. They had a lot of confiscated beer to use as targets. This was in the 70's so they still used 357's as a duty firearm. Generic beer was just out. It was really bad but it made good targets and they had a seemingly endless supply. I had purchase 500 of the Speer 200 grain hollow point. Most of them were used to slay full generic cans of beer.

For beer I used Speer 200 grain hollow points out of Ruger 7 1/2 Blackhawk. When we started doing this they used their standard issue 357 Mag ammo. The 45 Colt with the Speer recommend loads was very impressive. Their duty loads not so much. This started an arms race. They tried all sorts of loads including Super Vel. Nothing in the 357 came close to the explosiveness of the 200 grain Speers out of the 45 Colt.

For actual deer experience both worked, but I don't ever remember recovering a 45 bullet from a deer. I do remember recovering several 357 bullets but I shot more deer with the 357 Herrett than a standard 357.

[jlchucker]

30-30 Winchester, Model 94. 'Nuff said, unless you'd prefer a 35 Remington in qnd old Marlin. Both did the job back in the day, and the projectiles from neither one has a history of bouncing off deer.

[megasupermagnum]

30-30 Winchester, Model 94. 'Nuff said, unless you'd prefer a 35 Remington in qnd old Marlin. Both did the job back in the day, and the projectiles from neither one has a history of bouncing off deer.

Oh yes, the infamous "bounced off a deer". Not quite as great an excuse as "shot bounced off the duck". It's almost scary when people underestimate firearms this bad.

[tazman]

I have to vote for the 357 mag due to the fact that I do not own a 45 colt.
Illinois doesn't, currently, allow rifles for deer other than muzzle loaders anyway so the choice is moot for me.

[Texas by God]

I would be happy with either one under 100 yards. There are no degrees of dead and both will let the air out of deer. Put the boolit in the correct spot and get ready to gut.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Drm50]

I don't agree with 357 as a 150yd deer gun. Yea if you make a classic shot it will kill it just as dead as anything else. That's a big if that isn't taken into consideration. Second in the real world to kill a deer you have to shoot inside 6" at 100yds off hand. Rifle, load and shooter have to be capable of doing this. What a rifle doesn't off the rest means nothing as to a practical deer rifle. I don't know any cartridge that doesn't drop the instant it leaves the muzzle. To avoid hold over you would have to be sighted in at the distance or that would be the optimum range for the bullet to pass through the line of sight on descent. Any ballistics table will show this. I've taken stupid shots mostly at varmits and every once in a while I connect, but it's luck and not the norm.

[Life Member]

Which ever one you can hit the deer with:-|

[shdwlkr]

I have been reading this thread and I have yet to see where depending on the individual, the ability to hit what you aim at, the size of the bullet really makes any real difference. I bad hit is a bad hit no matter the size of the hole. One has to also consider the individual and their ability to hit what they aim at, the age, the physical abilities or lack of when deciding on what caliber is best. Oh and don't for get the normal distance at which deer or any game animal is taken at where the hunt is going to be. IF I were choosing I would pick the .357 mag as I know my normal range I like to shoot at, rifle and just where it hits and it is a round I am confident with.

[1Papalote]

I've killed deer with both. More with the 45 rifle.
357 bullet, RanchDog 359190 made for 35 Remington.
45 bullet, Lee 452255RF. Modest charge of unique.

WTD, Axis, bobcat, turkey fell from a 45 colt boolit. Exceptionally accurate.

1Papalote

[Hamish]

"What's a better deer rifle? .357 Magnum or 45 Long Colt?"

IMO, the question is patently simplistic. If a person knows anything about the subject, they know that the question is loaded like a pair of crooked dice. Yes, it's guaranteed to start a conversation, most certainly a little fighting, and possibly a little learning.

I shoot a 235 grain cast bullet with a huge meplat with a nice sharp corner on it at 1450 fps in the 357 magnum. Pretty sure I can give the typical 45 LC loading a run for its money.

Would I automatically pick the Mag over the Long Colt? Nope. Would I pick either one of them with a suitable cast load of sufficient weight and velocity to make two holes and pull the trigger on a broadside deer, inside of a distance that experience has shown capable of achieving the aforementioned innie and outie? Every time.

I could kill any deer on the planet, with any factory loading with the 357 Mag or 45 LC head stamp, inside of twenty yards, guaranteed.

I am a little puzzled over the assertion that KE is intellectually dishonest. But that's ok, I personally don't like shooting a round nose at any meat animal. Doesn't mean it's wrong, been lots killed with them, I just prefer slamming the living snot out of an animal with a flat faced chunk of lead, the heavier the better.

Put a hole through both lungs. Do that and I don't care what you shoot them with, that's a dead deer.

I am pleased to see many posts in this thread making much the same arguments that I am

[tazman]

Hamish--- Would you please give some details about that heavy boolit load for the 357 mag? Which mold, powder, OAL and such?
I find that very interesting.

[poppy42]

Whichever the shooter is most accurate and has confidence with. I’d personally choose 45 Colt.

My feelings exactly. Although neither one would be my ideal choice for a deer rifle in either caliber would be adequate under the right conditions . Years ago I had a Rossi lever action 357 I love the way to gun look I just couldn’t warm up the way it shot all the way it felt so I wound up selling it but that’s just me

[smkummer]

I have both in the safe. I have not yet killed deer with either but recently Lyman’s 358430 195 grain bullet is so dang accurate out of my marlin 1894C, if I used that gun, it would be the combination. I have killed deer with both handgun and rifle in 44 magnum. Hearing the “whomp” of the 44 240 grain bullet as it hits the deer would make me grab the 45 colt. Even standard pressure factory loadings offer about 1150 FPS in a rifle. My neighbor and son don’t even think twice about using their Win. 94 in 45 colt with Winchester 255 grain factory loads. That combination is Indiana approved I don’t believe any of the shots we’re beyond 75 yards out of a tree stand.

[megasupermagnum]

I have both in the safe. I have not yet killed deer with either but recently Lyman’s 358430 195 grain bullet is so dang accurate out of my marlin 1894C, if I used that gun, it would be the combination. I have killed deer with both handgun and rifle in 44 magnum. Hearing the “whomp” of the 44 240 grain bullet as it hits the deer would make me grab the 45 colt. Even standard pressure factory loadings offer about 1150 FPS in a rifle. My neighbor and son don’t even think twice about using their Win. 94 in 45 colt with Winchester 255 grain factory loads. That combination is Indiana approved I don’t believe any of the shots we’re beyond 75 yards out of a tree stand.

Unless that 358430 has a hollow point, that is a bullet that will disappoint. You might get away with a round nose on 45 and bigger calibers, but anything smaller is disappointing. Smaller wounds, and a bullet that tends to glance around bones. I wouldn't recommend a round nose for 45 colt either.

[bigted]

I voted for the 45 Colt. Big flat nose gets er done.

Having said this, gotta add that maybe Deer have somehow gotten tougher then they were when I was feeding my young family. Venison was the mainstay and they mostly succumbed to a well placed 22 LR. I would consistantly shoot 22 empty cases off a 2x4 at 25 yards back then. Eyesight and young nerves got it done. AND NO I did NOT lose a single deer ... EVER! Fact is they all layed rite down and with a couple nerve kicks ... passed onto my dinner table rite where they stood.

Reason I bring this up ??? Well it is like muzzleloader hunting ... gotta know how to accurately judge distance, know your distance where you can deliver an accurate shot with your nerves jangled, AND know your weapon AND game sought.

Within their limits, either can, have and will harvest humanely any deer on the planet.

Just gotta know your limitations and your weapons as well

[curioushooter]

To answer the question. 357 without even the slightest hesitation.
It's faster, flatter, ordinary factory loads can be bought off a shelf, minimum recoil, no BS with twist rates being off (nearly all 357s are 1:16 or close which stablizes the 158-180 grain weights optimal for deer). A pocket full of 357 isn't like a bunch of door knobs, while colt is. Yea you can habdload something that will approach the velocity of 357...just don't put it into some old revolver. My Remlin spits out a 158 grain XTPFP at 1900 FPS with 35kpsi book loads. It launches the 180 XTP at 1700. And I just shot some 170 grain Mihec Hammer bullets at 1800. All with accuracy surpassing my ability offhand.
Getting a Colt that fast will have some recoil in a light carbine. My preliminary gel testing has shown that the XTPs open up to at least .6" and they sailed through my 18" blocks. Deer are just not that tough. I am a deer processor during the Indiana season and see them shot with just about anything. 357 magnum is about the perfect round for deer at Midwest woodland ranges where minimum meat damage is a goal. My shooting buddy has a couple Rossi 92s in 45 colt, one with this ponderously long and heavy octagon barrel and another that is typical. They are heavier, have more recoil with an acceptable deer load, have lousy sights, and do not shoot well except with carefully prepared ammo and with all sorts of tinkering. I've made zero accuracy improvements to my remlin. I wouldn't trade it for any two of those rossis.

[Savvy Jack]

Screw firearms, use a bow and arrow!

[mule1]

I've used a .45, and it does well. Dropped a doe at around 60 yards with a pistol. I use a 260gr 1200fps hollow point from Georgia arms. They are accurate, and don't have a lot of recoil.

[superior]

Lee 300gr . 18 gr. 2400. 1202fps in 7.5 RBH
1350fps in 20 Rossi
45colt.
Enough for anything in North America and most critters in Africa. The US government originally specified that it must be capable of penetrating a horse and Killing the Indian on the other side of it. That was with the original black powder load. In cases where brush becomes a factor, I favor the bigger, heavier 45. I have Muleys, Elk, and Moose on my new Idaho property and shots won’t be over 100 yards. But even at 150, my load retains awesome energy and will completely wreck the skeletal structure of an animal if the best shot isn’t presented. A white tail in Texas found that out when a 300 grainer removed 4 inches of vertebrae. As far as I know, the boolit is still going. The 45 doesn’t need to rely on expansion. It’s 45 right now. I recovered one that hit a rock and it’s almost as wide as a lee 1 oz. slug. ( 50/50 ww a/c )

[Savvy Jack]

Lee 300gr . 18 gr. 2400. 1202fps in 7.5 RBH
1350fps in 20 Rossi
45colt.
Enough for anything in North America and most critters in Africa. The US government originally specified that it must be capable of penetrating a horse and Killing the Indian on the other side of it. That was with the original black powder load. In cases where brush becomes a factor, I favor the bigger, heavier 45. I have Muleys, Elk, and Moose on my new Idaho property and shots won’t be over 100 yards. But even at 150, my load retains awesome energy and will completely wreck the skeletal structure of an animal if the best shot isn’t presented. A white tail in Texas found that out when a 300 grainer removed 4 inches of vertebrae. As far as I know, the boolit is still going. The 45 doesn’t need to rely on expansion. It’s 45 right now. I recovered one that hit a rock and it’s almost as wide as a lee 1 oz. slug. ( 50/50 ww a/c )

Some folks just don't "get it" when it comes to a large meplat followed by heavy hard lead....performs better than a hollowpoint

[pls1911]

Have both, and have used both.
Daylight transfer means big thump... the 357 will do the job, but the 45 will do it with more authority.
Thump!!! works well on big pigs.
THUMP!!! Works better.

[LeftyDon]

Hunting in the north east USA is often very sight limited and a 150 yd shoot would be a an impossible dream in many of our woods. A now gone to happier hunting grounds friend of mine took one heck of a lot of CT deer with his .357 Rossi.

[Gaterskiner]

I voted .45 colt. ill take the larger caliber every time

[Good Cheer]

Mom used a 32-20 to kill big bad deer.

[barefooter175]

I'm not sure what a .45 LONG Colt is. Are you asking about the .45 Colt?

Anyhow, I do not load the .45 Colt in a rifle. It is strictly a pistol cartridge.

On the other hand, the .357 Magnum is a very good rifle cartridge. Personally, I like to use the Keith bullet. Cast very hard, and with a stout powder charge behind it, it will take a deer with authority. Any 158 gr., or heavier, jacketed bullet will work well too.

My $.02 worth...

[M-Tecs]

I'm not sure what a .45 LONG Colt is. Are you asking about the .45 Colt?



The 45 Colt verse the 45 Long Colt nomenclator has be going on for over a hundred years. While the term Long Colt has never been an official designation it is helpful for the masses to ensure they get the proper ammo. That was true in the day when the Schofield was common and even more true today with non-gun types have confusion over the 45 ACP verse the other 45 Cal options.

https://www.ammoland.com/2016/09/45-colt-vs-45-long-colt/#axzz64pASHVlX

[Loudenboomer]

If other was a choice I'd have mentioned several. That being said I've shot many whitetails with the .357. As mentioned earlier shot placement is paramount. Stay away from ultra lite j bullets. 110 and 125 gr bullets cant offer consistent penetration. I have had good results with the 140 gr XTP on about a dozen deer. A wide nose cast 158 to 180 will penetrate deeper. just my 2 cents.

[John Barleycorn]

45 with a heavy cast bullet.

[Savvy Jack]

357/45 Colt......Whichever one can place a bullet in this 8" x 8" area and perform at least with the same ballistics as a generic hunting arrow.
253615

[00buck]

Big slow boolits kill them deader

But what do I know

I live in a shotgun only state :(

[RP]

Something I have not noticed is how big are the deer where you hunt ? If I was hunting up north where the deer are almost twice the size of deer in the south and only had a week of hunting season a 45 would really matter to me. I live in the south small deer long season 357 is what I use main reason I own one along with a 44 both have taken deer without a issue. The 357 is light weight and easy for a kid to use so when my boys were young they both used it as their starter deer rifle.

[Drm50]

I don’t like 357 for deer and I don’t like 45/70 either. 357 is minimum that is practical and 45/70 is over kill. Not that either one won’t get the job done. I’ve never killed a deer with pistol cartridge in carbine but have killed several with handguns. It has always seemed funny to me that the pistol cartridges in carbines are considered marginal by the gun scribes. In handgun it’s just short of atomic.

I’ve done a lot of deer hunting in eastern states and run into many other non residents. The common thing where I hunt is the mountain terrain. A 100 yd shot is a long one. Having said that and having hunted with dozens of parties I can only remember a few guys hunting with pistol cartridges or straight cases. When it gets right down to it they are toys compared to bottle neck cartridges. That’s the reason for the millions of 30-30s in the deer woods. Can pistol cartridges kill deer? Yes, but there are much better choices.

[Conditor22]

Open sightlines -- 357
Brushy woods -- 45 (heavier boolit)

[bigdog454]

Killed deer with 45 colt in both revolver and rossi lever gun, all were dead with little trailing them, also a few with 44 mag rossi, missed a couple with 357 revolver now I stick to the 45 or 44. I used 255 gr flat nose in the 45 big hole in bigger hole out except for one big doe that I shot that was facing me. 255 gr went in under chin and found the bullet in the hind qtr. expanded to the size of a half dollar. It tok out the heart lungs etc. on the way. I like the 45.
BD

[Savvy Jack]

What people don't understand is that it is not only about shot placement but about bullet design and impact velocity. No matter what bullet one uses, funny how they all expand to about a 1/2" ay? Then there is speed, weight etc.

Funny, folks been killing deer for 1,000 years and for some reason we keep trying to improve death! Geeesh guys, it is a marketing scheme and the sheeple fall for it!

Pick the rifle, caliber you like and then perfect your skills shooting it. In order to get perfection, you may need to spend thousands finding that sweet load!!! Like I said, just accurate enough to hit the 8 x 8 area, velocity per bullet weight/design....will bring'm down.

If you are a good hunter, you should be able to get close enough to knock'em over the head with a club like the caveman did.....that's HUNTING!!! Shooting a deer at 1,000 yards is not hunting, that's a SNIPER!

Here is a vintage 1880's 44-40 (44WCF). 50 yards with an impact velocity of about 1,300fps

253666


Here is a replicated example of the above, killing game for over 140 years

253668

[Hickory]

8x8 square? At what distance? And is this anywhere on a deer or maybe you would like to place your shots in the kill zone.
Most people have a higher standard, say 3"x3" @100 yards.
But, a person happy slopping shots into a deer without regard to shot placement will loose a lot of deer.

[Savvy Jack]

8x8 square? At what distance? And is this anywhere on a deer or maybe you would like to place your shots in the kill zone.
Most people have a higher standard, say 3"x3" @100 yards.
But, a person happy slopping shots into a deer without regard to shot placement will loose a lot of deer.

If you think for one second the millions of just deer hunters in the eastern USA shoot 3" x 3" groups, you are highly kidding yourself. We are talking reality here....but if you will ease up to post #83....that should work pretty good at a 100 yards....but we all know that was from a bench rest looking at paper and not some monster buck with our hearts pounding out of our bodies like Bugs Bunny on Saturday morning comics!!!

I guess I am on double secret probation cause I am not allowed to upload any more photos.

[jimb16]

I've used slug guns on deer for many years. Only in the last few years has the State of Ohio allowed the use of pistol caliber (.357 and larger) rifles for deer. So far, I haven't noticed any real difference in the efficiency between a shotgun slug and a slow moving 230 gr. bullet from a .45 Colt. They still drop in their tracks "iff'n ya hits dem rite".

[Savvy Jack]

I've used slug guns on deer for many years. Only in the last few years has the State of Ohio allowed the use of pistol caliber (.357 and larger) rifles for deer. So far, I haven't noticed any real difference in the efficiency between a shotgun slug and a slow moving 230 gr. bullet from a .45 Colt. They still drop in their tracks "iff'n ya hits dem rite".

:goodpost:

[Savvy Jack]

Here is a funny one for ya. Winchester doesn't even list the 357 "Super-X" as a "Deer" cartridge on the box but it lists it as a "deer" cartridge on the website. Winchester does not list the 45 Colt as a "deer" cartridge on the box nor on their website. Buffalo Bore has some nice factory hunting loads when used in the correct weapons. Best thing to do is open up a Lyman's #49th, turn to the rifle data...find what works best in your rifle and enjoy. You don't have to blow a deer's guts out in order to be an ethical kill, ask any bow hunter!!

Winchester's so called "Deer Rifle" Calibers,

350 Leg
223
22-250
243
25
25-06
25-35
257 Rob +P
264
270 series
280
284
30-06
30-30
30-40
300 series
303
307
308
32 Win
384
35 Rem
356
357
375
38-40
38-55
41 Rem Mag
44 Rem Mag
44-40
45-70
450
6.4
6.5x55
6mm
7.62x39
7.62x54
7mm series

Interesting list!!

[sharps4590]

When it comes to engines, there is no substitute for cubic inches. When it comes to cartridges, there is no substitute for caliber.

Jack, the list mentions "450". 450 what? There's a LOT of 450's out there!!

[Hickory]

What people don't understand is that it is not only about shot placement but about bullet design and impact velocity.

I think you put too much faith in bullet design and not enough in shot placement.

An 8x8 square is not good enough!

In the 70's & 80's I shot at Camp Perry and could keep ten shots in the 8-9-10 and X ring at 200 yards off hand with open sights.

You said its "not about shot placement" well, it is about shot placement.
An expanding bullet will kill a deer even if you shoot it in the guts or shoot its lower jaw off, but will you find it or will the Coyotes?
Shot placement is paramount in any hunting endeavor!
You said practice, practice, practice but, I say never be satisfied with just keeping your shots in an 8x8" square. Have higher standards!

[Jedman]

About the 8 X 8 kill area I feel the same that I shoot for a small spot like 2-3" and also don't believe in maximum point blank range where the yardage given is based on a 8" circle.
I hunt with a lot of calibers that have a rainbow trajectory and if I have it sighted at 100 yards and get a 60 yard shot I aim 5" low to hit that 2-3" spot.
Giving a MPBR of some long distance such as 173 yards and telling someone to hold dead on at any range in from point blank to that maximum is just wrong for me. You will be wounding much more game than killing !

Jedman

[Savvy Jack]

You said its "not about shot placement" well, it is about shot placement.

Where did I say that?

[Hickory]

Where did I say that?

Did I get that wrong?
Well, you know what you meant.

[Savvy Jack]

Did I get that wrong?
Well, you know what you meant.

Yeah, here is exactly what I said, and I meant it exactly the way I said it.


What people don't understand is that it is not only about shot placement but about bullet design and impact velocity.

[Savvy Jack]

450 what? There's a LOT of 450's out there!!

Here is Winchester's "Deer" Rifle cartridge list - https://winchester.com/Products/Ammunition/Rifle?filters=%7B%22ids%22%3A%5B%22%23u-h-6%22%5D%7D
Here is Winchester's "Deer" HandGun cartridge list - https://winchester.com/Products/Ammunition/Handgun?filters=%7B%22ids%22%3A%5B%22%23u-h-6%22%5D%7D

[Savvy Jack]

What's a better deer rifle? .357 Magnum or 45 Long Colt?
What bullet would you recommend?
Thanks

Here is a few 357 deer kill videos - https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=deer+with+357

[If1Hitu]

I voted .45 long Colt.:cbpour:

[Terminatorret]

No question...at short range (about 50-75 yards?) the .45 is boss. And the .50 cal beats the .45...and the 20mm beats the .50 cal...and the 105mm beats the 20mm.
The question is, how much killing power do you need? The .357 at ranges around 100 meters is plenty powerful to take deer. Do we need to discuss price per round, ammo availability, recoil, noise, total weight...etc?
What other calibers do you own? For deer hunting, I wouldn't start buying .45 Long Colts if many of my other firearms were .38/.357. "The better deer rifle" in this case is the one that uses the same caliber as your other firearms.
JMHO

[Savvy Jack]

For long distance shots, use the 45 Long Colt
For short distance shots, use the 45 Short Colt

That's what they were designed for.

[RoyEllis]

JMHO but those aren't rifles, they're pistol caliber carbines. But they'll kill a deer "shore 'nuf" as long as you hit what ya aim at, and alot farther than most folks think they will do the job at.

[jonp]

Something I have not noticed is how big are the deer where you hunt ? If I was hunting up north where the deer are almost twice the size of deer in the south and only had a week of hunting season a 45 would really matter to me. I live in the south small deer long season 357 is what I use main reason I own one along with a 44 both have taken deer without a issue. The 357 is light weight and easy for a kid to use so when my boys were young they both used it as their starter deer rifle.

Every year someone within a few miles of my camp bags a 300lb whitetail. Last fall my buddy shot one across the dirt logging road across from my place that went 275lb. No way would I feel good going after something like that with a 357 Mag. With deer that size I'd go with a very healthy load of 2400, Unique or H110 under a 250 gr or heavier 45LC

[roadie]

For long distance shots, use the 45 Long Colt
For short distance shots, use the 45 Short Colt

That's what they were designed for.



Not disputing this in any way, but I'm wondering if you know of places on the Web that I can find info on it. I know some guys who will almost go to blows if you mention the .45 Long Colt, cause everyone knows there ain't no such animal.

As for hunting deer and .357 vs .45 Colt, I'd take the .45 every time, that big slug has a much better knock em down factor for me.

[jonp]

Not disputing this in any way, but I'm wondering if you know of places on the Web that I can find info on it. I know some guys who will almost go to blows if you mention the .45 Long Colt, cause everyone knows there ain't no such animal.

As for hunting deer and .357 vs .45 Colt, I'd take the .45 every time, that big slug has a much better knock em down factor for me.

I think he was making a joke. The history behind the 45LC designation is well known.

[roadie]

I think he was making a joke. The history behind the 45LC designation is well known.




Well, there ya go, nobody has ever accused me of being quick on the uptake.

[Chad5005]

if youre not in a straight wall case state buy a bottle neck case rifle so youre not limited to 100 or 150 yards

[mickbr]

Well in a Rossi 92 the 45 colt knocks at the door of 454 casull, so it gets the vote, but depending on what type of deer as well. Our smallest, Chital( axis) and fallow are only 100 -200pounds and the largest red deer and Sambar are 400-600+. Id probably give the vote to the 357 except for the larger deer species.

[Texas by God]

I vote 44-40. Wait, What?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Savvy Jack]

if youre not in a straight wall case state buy a bottle neck case rifle so youre not limited to 100 or 150 yards

That's correct, get a 44-40 so you can shoot 300 yards...or get a 30-30, even a caveman can hit a deer at 300 yards with a 30-06

[jonp]

That's correct, get a 44-40 so you can shoot 300 yards...or get a 30-30, even a caveman can hit a deer at 300 yards with a 30-06

or just limit your shots to a shorter distance. This is why some of use use a handgun, that and much of the area I hunt has no 300yrd shot opportunities.

[Savvy Jack]

or just limit your shots to a shorter distance. This is why some of use use a handgun, that and much of the area I hunt has no 300yrd shot opportunities.

Oh well in that case, get the rifle that shoots .38 specials

[Static line]

I voted 45 Colt because I have one in a rifle. The 357 is just a little bitty thing.

[oldsalt444]

When the 45LC was first invented as a martial cartridge (1870's), it was reputed to take down an indian war pony at 100 yards. That was with black powder. 'Nuff said'.

[Thunder Stick]

The original 30WCF loading was a 160 grain projectile that left the muzzle at 1,900 FPS. My Marlin 1894C in 357 magnum launches a 158 grain projectile at 1,860 FPS. It is a 30-30 class cartridge. At 100 yards, the velocity and energy is roughly equal to that from a handgun at the muzzle.

I voted 357. :D

[psweigle]

I have a dog in this fight. I own and hunt with a ruger blackhawk and a ruger 77 in 357 magnum. I shoot 158 grain and limit pistol shots to bow range and rifle shots to 100 yards. I am very proficient with both weapons and shot placement is paramount in my opinion for a clean ethical kill. My vote is .357 magnum.

[Tripplebeards]

If it's a gun that can take warm .45 Colt loads then it's the .45 for sure, neither is my first choice for deer.

Bingo. I’d rather at least step up to something with a muzzle velocity of 2100 to 2300 FPS like a 35 rem. I like to watch my deer go down in sight. Been there, did it, done it, with pistol caliber rifles. I don’t like long trailing with zero to little blood trails with heart & double lung shots. These calibers will definitely kill a deer it’s just how long and hard you want to look for them after the shot. I get way shorter tracking and better blood trails with broad heads. All the reading I’ve done here that no expansion is needed because a 44 cal or 45 cal diameter makes a big exit hole is complete horse pucky unless your braking back bones and or bones on the way in so they shatter and do the damage an expanding boolit would do. Otherwise a non expanding hard cast sails right though like a FMJ. I’m sure PC, GC, and close to pure lead alloy would make all the difference in the world in pistol calibers when deer hunting.

[Static line]

Bingo. I’d rather at least step up to something with a muzzle velocity of 2100 to 2300 FPS like a 35 rem. I like to watch my deer go down in sight. Been there, did it, done it, with pistol caliber rifles. I don’t like long trailing with zero to little blood trails with heart & double lung shots. These calibers will definitely kill a deer it’s just how long and hard you want to look for them after the shot. I get way shorter tracking and better blood trails with broad heads. All the reading I’ve done here that no expansion is needed because a 44 cal or 45 cal diameter makes a big exit hole is complete horse pucky unless your braking back bones and or bones on the way in so they shatter and do the damage an expanding boolit would do. Otherwise a non expanding hard cast sails right though like a FMJ. I’m sure PC, GC, and close to pure lead alloy would make all the difference in the world in pistol calibers when deer hunting.

You are fortunate to live in a State that doesn't require straight walled cartridges, only, for deer hunting.

[Tripplebeards]

I do have a 450BM that I bought for IA deer hunting. Haven’t used it on deer yet though. My buddies in IA claim the factory Hornady 250 grain FTX loads drop deer like lightning. But yes, here in WI I normally use my 30-06 with hand loaded 180 grain Core Locts and use cast for anterless only and holiday hunts so if/when I get a long track with zero blood to follow from a slow, non expanding cast boolit on a meat doe I don’t have an ulcer over it.

[Static line]

I do have a 450BM that I bought for IA deer hunting. Haven’t used it on deer yet though. My buddies in IA claim the factory Hornady 250 grain FTX loads drop deer like lightning. But yes, here in WI I normally use my 30-06 with hand loaded 180 grain Core Locts and use cast for anterless only and holiday hunts so if/when I get a long track with zero blood to follow from a slow, non expanding cast boolit on a meat doe I don’t have an ulcer over it.

lol, There isn't a like button on here but I cracked up over your last sentence about the ulcer.
Reminds me,after I came back from Vietnam,I bought my first deer rifle,a Rem. 700 in 30-06 and used 180 grain CoreLocts when I hunted Pa.for deer. Everybody in our camp of 7 guys had either 308's or the 0-6

[rjathon]

My favorite woods deer cartridge is the venerable 35 Remington. Bang flop. However, I often let friends and family use it and end up using my backup, a 357 lever loaded with Lil’Gun and a cast 180 gr Ranch Dog. While it does not reliably bang flop every time it gets the job done. They rarely go more than about 30 yards and if you shoot through big bones they drop where they are. Complete penetration without much meat damage is the norm. Shots are all under 75 yards and usually under 50.

At the ranges that I shoot just about any cartridge should work fine.

[Static line]

Another guy that likes the Ranch Dog cast bullets huh? Me too. My go to bullet for my 45-70 Guide Gun is my cast 350 gr. Ranch Dog. So far all my deer have dropped right there or just wondered for 20 yards then fell over dead .No bones hit and complete pass throughs with lots of blood loss. Done the same with my 44 magnum rifle too with my 275 gr. WFNGC bullets. This year I am going to try and get my Marlin 1894 ,45 Colt bloodied with a 255 gr. WFN cast bullet. All my shots have been up to 90 yards from 15 yards. Guide Gun like Varget, 44 mag like Lil Gun but I am going to quite using that since it eats away at barrels ,so I hear and so far, the 45 Colt seems to like Unique the best out of all that I have tried.

[farmbif]

I want to hear more about lilgun eating rifle barrel. I have an unopened 4lb jug and have been hesitant to work up loads not wanting to cause damage to any gun. plus I have other powders that work great for now. This is one of the first times ive heard of lilgun causing damage in rifle. Most of what I have read about it are people using it in wheel guns and the gap between cylinder and barrel has something to do with it.

[Static line]

I want to hear more about lilgun eating rifle barrel. I have an unopened 4lb jug and have been hesitant to work up loads not wanting to cause damage to any gun. plus I have other powders that work great for now. This is one of the first times ive heard of lilgun causing damage in rifle. Most of what I have read about it are people using it in wheel guns and the gap between cylinder and barrel has something to do with it.

Pretty much of what I have heard also but on a few occasions have run across some saying that it burns real hot and in time eats at the bore but this is just hear say, of course and comes from, you guessed it, the internet. I just know my can is about out and I won't buy anymore until I hear facts. I have a 296 load that shoots just as well.

[farmbif]

if gun shows ever come back on a regular basis and I can get a table, ill put the lilgun up for sale and put the money into 2400

[Tripplebeards]

I use lil gun in my 77/44 with a mid range book load. I’m sure I’ll never shoot it enough to ever hurt my gun.

[Static line]

I use lil gun in my 77/44 with a mid range book load. I’m sure I’ll never shoot it enough to ever hurt my gun.

It was sort of depressing when I read that about Lil Gun because after many changes in components and beating my head on the wall to get my 77/44 to shoot good groups, it was only after I came up with a load using Lil Gun that I was made happy. That same load works very well in my Henry 44 magnum also. This load is all boxed up and is always set aside for deer hunting and in the field bag.

[Tripplebeards]

Yep, here’s a 21.1 grain lil gun load out of my 77/44 at 1750 FPS with 15.4 Bh alloy.

https://i.imgur.com/eCYnRPB.jpg

I’ve since changed to a softer alloy (7.8 BH) and to 21 grains of h110 with the same bullet. It shoots just as about as tight (.8” on average at 100 yards). It also dropped the velocity to just about 1600 FPS. So H110 definitely pushes my boolit a little slower then lil gun. I don’t really shoot the gun much anymore since imo it doesn’t have enough horsepower for instant kills on whitetails and have been working with 2100 FPS loads in my 35 Rems lately.

I acraglass bedded the 77/44, free floated the barrel, installed a trigger kit, and polished the kit up along with a few other mods till I got it to shoot. I’ve put enough lil gun through it ladder testing and it still shoots lights out. I just won’t buy anymore of that powder Now that I’ve checked my current load and realized I switched over to H110. I’ve tried lil gun in my Long gone 450BM Ruger American with very accurate results as well.

[Static line]

Yep, here’s a 21.1 grain lil gun load out of my 77/44 at 1750 FPS with 15.4 Bh alloy.

https://i.imgur.com/eCYnRPB.jpg

I’ve since changed to a softer alloy (7.8 BH) and to 21 grains of h110 with the same bullet. It shoots just as about as tight (.8” on average at 100 yards). It also dropped the velocity to just about 1600 FPS. So H110 definitely pushes my boolit a little slower then lil gun. I don’t really shoot the gun much anymore since imo it doesn’t have enough horsepower for instant kills on whitetails and have been working with 2100 FPS loads in my 35 Rems lately.

I acraglass bedded the 77/44, free floated the barrel, installed a trigger kit, and polished the kit up along with a few other mods till I got it to shoot. I’ve put enough lil gun through it ladder testing and it still shoots lights out. I just won’t buy anymore of that powder Now that I’ve checked my current load and realized I switched over to H110. I’ve tried lil gun in my Long gone 450BM Ruger American with very accurate results as well.

I've done everything to my 77/44 that you have except glass bed the action. I think my best groups at 100 yards if I remember is 2-1.2 inches but before Lil Gun we were looking at 3-1/2 and 4 inch groups. I never tried a " J" bullet to see what it would do but I have no interest in a shiny bullet anyhow. A deer might see it coming at him and duck. Just kidding!
If only I could, a 35 Remington would be my pick of the littler. I have a nice Marlin Lever in my safe right now that I had planned to use in Canada on bear. A friend offered my a good deal on it and I was crazy to refuse and on top of that, the wife wanted it for herself.
So far the 44 on deer has done me good but if I see bad things starting to happen, I'll go back to my 45-70 in a heart beat. I know what it can do.

[Tripplebeards]

Here’s my post showing how I glassed the action...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?362842-More-testing-with-the-Lyman-devistator-and-my-ruger-77-44

[Static line]

Here’s my post showing how I glassed the action...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?362842-More-testing-with-the-Lyman-devistator-and-my-ruger-77-44

Thanks for the link. That was a great thread. I'll be reading it again just to make sure I hit on everything.

[Mr. Crumbly]

I've never needed more than .44wcf on deer or hogs of any size, but that being said, I would never ever go with a .357, it just doesn't have the ooomph. Most of the time, the .44 boolet is caught under the hide on the offside of a large hog. On deer they punch through great. On larger than normal monster hogs, I load 240's over RL7 for same velocity as original 200 grain loads.

[Savvy Jack]

I've never needed more than .44wcf on deer or hogs of any size, but that being said, I would never ever go with a .357, it just doesn't have the ooomph. Most of the time, the .44 boolet is caught under the hide on the offside of a large hog. On deer they punch through great. On larger than normal monster hogs, I load 240's over RL7 for same velocity as original 200 grain loads.

I whole heartedly agree!

[Kosh75287]

At 100 yards or less, I'D want the .45 Colt with the "Elmer Keith" load in it, for reasons stated above (bigger hole, lotsa penetration). It won't shoot as flat as a maxed out .357, but within 100 yards, no shooter who can't hit a 6" plate 9 out of 10 times with either carbine has any business going afield.

[CTI1USNRET]

I think you are all underestimating what can be done with a pistol caliber lever action. With load development and practice I think the 45 Colt, even with factory sights, can reach out to 175 yards, maybe even 200 yards. I think it all depends on the ability to measure or estimate range. I carry a Bushnell rangefinder with me. I place a couple 10 inch gongs at random ranges, go back to my shooting spot, laser the target, check my range card and then take the shot. I'm good out to 200 yards.

[Drm50]

I have this to say about pistol caliber carbines. Unless you have no choice they are the least useful of long guns. They can be very useful 100yds and under. Shooting game at 200yds with one is not the same as shooting from a bench at known distances. A plain old 30/30 is much better and useful rifle. I’ve only killed one deer with pistol caliber carbine, 32/22 at 40yds. It’s not a question of accuracy or killing power. It’s practical range. All straight case cartridges have similar ballistics. When you have to hold 4 feet above a target shooting offhand it’s not a responsible shot.

[CTI1USNRET]

... When you have to hold 4 feet above a target shooting offhand it’s not a responsible shot.

That's a ridiculous thing to say. I haven't had to hold 4 ft over the target with my Rossi 45 Colt to hit a target at 200 yards. I hold dead on. I put in quite a bit of the time at the range to develop my range card in 10 yard increments. It tells me which step on the rear sight I need to use at various distances out to 200 yards. I haven't even used the highest step on the buckhorn sights.

[Drm50]

With 45 Colt zeroed at 50’ put up a target at 100yds on large cardboard. Note the hold over to hit bullseye. I really don’t know what hold over is a 200yds or how it relates to steps on back sight but it’s substantial. The point I was trying to make. Shooting targets of bench at known distance is not same as shooting random offhand at game. With irons at 200yds you may hit the deer , but where?
I have buddies that play off the bench and sight in guns for long range. They can shoot some really good groups. When you look at a deer and it’s at a range it’s running back and forth on width of your front sight and you’re offhand, your going to tell me you can make a kill shot with a 45 carbine. Not a easy task with a 30/06 and irons. It really doesn’t make a difference other than hold over. Sight picture will be the same.

[David LaPell]

As much as I would like a .357 Lever action, the .45 Colt is a bigger and heavier bullet. Range will be about the same when it comes to the limits, 100 yards or less, both are brush cartridges. I'm all for letting in more air in and blood out with a bigger round like the .45 Colt. A good hard cast SWC with a wide meplat in the .45 Colt in something like 255 grains will do great. The .357 is great too, but the .45 Colt is just the best of both worlds.

[Prairie Cowboy]

Currently I own a Miroku 1873 in .44-40, a couple of .45-70 Marlin 1895s, a JM Marlin 336C in .30-30, an 1894C in .357 Magnum, and an 1894 Cowboy with a 20" tapered octagon barrel in .45 Colt.

Comparing them all, the Marlin Cowboy in .45 Colt is the best of the bunch combining handling, balance, weight, aim-ability with open sights, and esthetic appeal. So, given the two choices of cartridge, it would easily be my first choice.

However, the 1894C with it's 18 1/2" barrel is lighter and handier and has similar attributes. And the .357 Magnum can deliver 1750 FPS with a 158 grain JSP boolit, so it's my second choice.

[leadeye]

My go to bullet for the Henry BB in 45 Colt is the 325 grain Lyman. I feel very secure at woods ranges with this as it never fails to drop deer quickly.

[Warhawk]

I'm not a fan of kinetic energy as an indicator of killing power. Let's look at some numbers for the .357. Buffalo Bore sells a load consisting of a 180 grain flat nose, gas checked bullet with a bc of .21 and muzzle velocity of 1851 fps from a Marlin with 18.5" barrel. Here it is: https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=100

I ran the numbers with an online ballistic calculator. The numbers agree with BB's published numbers. I just wanted more information with smaller steps. So here it is: http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php?t=52584be6

With a starting velocity of 1851 fps, it is still doing 1388 fps at 150 yards. I also noticed that with a 150 yard zero, the point of impact is within 3.15" from the muzzle to 175 yards, with 5 yard steps. At that range it is still doing 1324 fps. A 180 grain bullet at 1300+ fps will definitely kill a deer just fine.

I used that load as an example because the actual specs are published, but there are several 170+ grain cast bullets that can provide similar results.

I’m with you on kinetic energy, all things being equal, a bigger diameter bullet kills better than the smaller bullet. Kinetic energy formulas completely ignore bullet diameter. Looking at strictly kinetic energy at the muzzle, a .243 has more kinetic energy than a 45-70. Which one would you choose to shoot a Buffalo?

[freakonaleash]

Get with in 50 yards and it doesn't make any difference. All the deer I have killed were with a flintlock, except for on which I used a 1860 Army C&B revolver.

[warren5421]

A lot depends on where you hunt. I lived around Lake George, NY where deer hunting you could run into a black bear. I got a real good S&W in .357 given to me by a guy who was hunting deer when a bear came at him. He emptied the gun hitting the bear 6 times not stopping it. His hunting buddy dropped it with a .30-30. The bear would have died but the guy shooting would have also or been hurt bad before it happened. The .357 didn't hit any bone so the bear had full motion. The guy was shooting Pb RNFP reloads that never damaged any organs bad enough to stop the bear. All rounds stopped inside the bear. Helping skin and cut the meat looking at the bullet tracks I would not use .357 mag to hunt with. My $0.02 worth. By the way I'm 75 and ran first trap line at 8 years old carrying a Rimington Rand .45 ACP as dad didn't have a .22 at that time, .45 ACP or 16 ga double only.

[Prairie Cowboy]

There is a significant difference between shooting an angry large black bear and a whitetail deer.
There is also a significant difference between the velocity of a .357 magnum bullet from a 6" revolver and from an 18 1/2" or 20" carbine.

With a revolver you can expect maybe 1350 FPS with 158 grain/H110 Loads.
The same load from a carbine will deliver 1840 FPS.
About 500 FPS more than with a revolver.
Since that is approaching the standard 150 grain .30-30 load at 2150 FPS, I think that the .357 magnum carbine is certainly adequate for whitetail deer with the right bullet.

But I would not advise using a .357 magnum revolver to hunt bear with either. :smile:

[Savvy Jack]

https://gundigest.com/handguns/hunting-guns/hunting-hard-hitting-45-cartridges


Enough said!

[rickt300]

I like both rounds but my truck gun has been a Rossi levergun in 45 LC for a while now. Runniing a 255 gr. bullet at 1300 fps it seems to do everything well but I won't use it past 100 yrds.

[wc870]

Good read Savvy jack, I agree as well. The 45 colt gets my nod.

[ogre]

Use the one that matches your revolver caliber.

[beltfed]

38-55 or 45-70
beltfed/arnie

[KWK]

I recall a comment John Linebaugh made on his web site years ago: "My wife has taken around 6 antelope and 5 mule deer with her .45 Colt. She uses a 4 3/4" Seville and the handload is a 260 Keith cast at 900 fps. This load will shoot lengthwise of antelope and mule deer at 100 yards."

While I've read many reports the 357 rifle works fine (and would offer a better trajectory), Linebaugh's observations plus a desire for lower muzzle blast would have me giving the nod to the Colt.

[missionary5155]

The 50 Alaskan

[megasupermagnum]

I recall a comment John Linebaugh made on his web site years ago: "My wife has taken around 6 antelope and 5 mule deer with her .45 Colt. She uses a 4 3/4" Seville and the handload is a 260 Keith cast at 900 fps. This load will shoot lengthwise of antelope and mule deer at 100 yards."

While I've read many reports the 357 rifle works fine (and would offer a better trajectory), Linebaugh's observations plus a desire for lower muzzle blast would have me giving the nod to the Colt.

Don't knock it till you try it. The 357 magnum has very little muzzle blast in a rifle length barrel.

[KWK]

My son has a 357 carbine with an 18.5 inch barrel which we find surprisingly loud. I'd like to try a 357 in a much longer barrel, but I'm certain a Colt launching at Linebaugh's 900 fps from 24" would easily best it in this one regard.

[BIGOX]

45lc for sure but it depends on where one would be hunting

[T.R.]

276369

I downed this cow elk with my .357 MAG at a distance of about 50 feet. Two quick shots into the chest did the job.

TR

[missionary5155]

Bully for you !!!

[Point452]

I can hand load my 45 Colt R92 with Lee 300gr cast to 1620fps, and 230-250 much faster. You can’t do that with 357. Of course, both are good for hunting at appropriate ranges.

[drac0nic]

A lot depends on where you hunt. I lived around Lake George, NY where deer hunting you could run into a black bear. I got a real good S&W in .357 given to me by a guy who was hunting deer when a bear came at him. He emptied the gun hitting the bear 6 times not stopping it. His hunting buddy dropped it with a .30-30. The bear would have died but the guy shooting would have also or been hurt bad before it happened. The .357 didn't hit any bone so the bear had full motion. The guy was shooting Pb RNFP reloads that never damaged any organs bad enough to stop the bear. All rounds stopped inside the bear. Helping skin and cut the meat looking at the bullet tracks I would not use .357 mag to hunt with. My $0.02 worth. By the way I'm 75 and ran first trap line at 8 years old carrying a Rimington Rand .45 ACP as dad didn't have a .22 at that time, .45 ACP or 16 ga double only.

Why would you carry a .357 mag for hunting or bear protection loaded with PB? Compared to H110 in a 125gr loading you're talking 600+ ft-lbs less energy and you're talking a 170gr bullet w/H110 having 300fps more velocity than a 158gr bullet W/PB. It's certainly a good load for lighter rounds in pistol but it's a big stretch IMO for serious business like a bear gun.

I wouldn't feel under armed with either although I'd say I would bias towards the flatter shooting .357 IF I was running loads that weren't BH only in the .45. At that point the round is a whole other animal.

[nhithaca]

I think the reference to Pb was for lead bullets, not powder. Just a guess.

[badguybuster]

Id say those were heavily under powered loads. I know from personal experience that a 357 mag, 158 graim XTP will from a 5" barrel.will completely transect a 300# black bear at 20 yards. The bullet entered at the tracheal notch and lodged in the right side hip joint. It passed thru the heart, one lung, the liver and stomach. It made an awful mess. This was a full power load btw.

[Biggfoot44]

Yes , this discussion is relevant , particularly with the plethora of jurisdictions ( or portions of states ) now allowing straight wall rifles in previous shotgun only . Additionally , there are areas and terrain where even seeing deer beyond 100-125 yds can't happen , and an metallic sight lever carbine is handy .

I have had 20in .357 in hand with deer intent , but deer didn't cooperate . Buy I Have shot Boar with .357 .

In the 9 pages of discussion , there is a major factor not yet discussed ; your beliefs and philosophy regarding expansion , either generally , or bore size specific .

Regular factory load 158gr JSP .357 gives 1700- ish from 20 inch early Rossi M92 . Said generic 158 JSP will penetrate +/- 3 Feet lengthwise into a Boar ( including passing thru the skull) . BUT , with no expansion .
IF you think .35 caliber is Big Enough to not " need " expansion , you're in high clover ! A JSP or cast bullet from .357 rifle will penetrate more than enough for " mere " deer .

If you prefer controlled expansion , such as expected from " normal " deer cartridges , it gets tricky Most factory load and component bullet JHP are designed for revolver velocities . ( They exist , but it's a very short list).

Personally , I've never reached a firm conclusion on this question regarding .357 .

* To Me * , .452 in is definitely big enough to be hunting effective with non expanding . Even with moderate velocity . Even at levels that would be conservative hunting loads from a long bbl revolver .

If low recoil is a factor , for youth , new shooters , or physical ailments , I'd rather have a .45 @ 900- 1,000 than a reduced .357 rifle .

Flatter trajectory ?Neither would be " flat" by big picture standards . You could crunch the numbers , and consult tables and ballistic software , and determine that .357 was comparitively flatter . But with either within typical or expected distances of not much over 100yds , and usually less , neither one is trajectory a limiting factor .

**************

Separately , the discussion about expected / adaquate grouping seems to be using different criteria .

Hitting within an 8in paper plate ( ie hitting @ desired POA), for a fast-ish offhand shot(s) , is respectable , and sufficient for Bambi's heart/ lung area .

For a scoped bolt or single shot from bench , or rest or sitting position with tight sling , 8 in group would be abysmal .

[echo154]

Never used one of them for deer....but I know my 1873 Uberti border rifle (18"0) has been much more accurate than the 45 colt Rossi I had. 1/2" at 50 and 3 3/4 at 100, 5 shots with factory sights. I've taken a couple hogs with it (HC lead SWC). I got a Marbles tang sight I need to get mounted for 100 yards.
I remember a cartoon showing a group of cave men around a dead mammoth with a single spear in it. One looks to the rest and tells em to "write that spot down". If you can't hit it in a kill spot, yes it may die......EVENTUALLY!
I use a bow for deer here in Illinois so shot placement is extremely vital! Given the choices of the two calibers I would say both will get the job done as long as you shoot within you comfort zone.

[megasupermagnum]

I wouldn't be so sure on that trajectory. A 45 colt say 1000 fps, sighted in 2 1/2" high at 50 yards, is 4" low at 100 yards. For an absolute maximum 100 yards, you could make it work. Compare that with a 357 magnum which with a 158 gr can easily break 2000 fps, lets say 1800 fps because someone might like heavy bullets. You can zero at 125 yards, only be 2" high at 50 yards, and only be 2 1/2" low at 150 yards.

As a 75 yard, open sighted carbine, I guess I can kinda-sorta understand why someone might choose a 45 colt. As a general use deer rifle, then I just don't see it. the 357 magnum is a world ahead of anything 45 colt can do, and the recoil is minimal. No need to reduce for kids.

[CTI1USNRET]

I wouldn't be so sure on that trajectory. A 45 colt say 1000 fps, sighted in 2 1/2" high at 50 yards, is 4" low at 100 yards. For an absolute maximum 100 yards, you could make it work. Compare that with a 357 magnum which with a 158 gr can easily break 2000 fps, lets say 1800 fps because someone might like heavy bullets. You can zero at 125 yards, only be 2" high at 50 yards, and only be 2 1/2" low at 150 yards.

As a 75 yard, open sighted carbine, I guess I can kinda-sorta understand why someone might choose a 45 colt. As a general use deer rifle, then I just don't see it. the 357 magnum is a world ahead of anything 45 colt can do, and the recoil is minimal. No need to reduce for kids.

With my 45 Colt 255 gr copper plated flat nose handload, which chronos at 1730 fps from a 20 inch Rossi 92, I have no trouble hitting a deer's shoulder (life size steel target) at 200 yards with the factory sights. And the recoil isn't bad either. Your 1000 fps assumption severely understated the flat trajectory of Colt 45 +P loads.

With my load and rifle the point blank range on a 7 inch target (3.5" max above or below point of aim) is 160 yds. With a good rest a 200 yard shot in open country would not be difficult. But here in the New Hampshire woods you can't even see that far. 75 yards is probably the max shot anyone takes.

This is a cast bullet site, which means everyone here is a handloader and not limited to what's available on the shelves. Why did you use 1000 fps for the 45 Colt?

[ElCheapo]

Back in the early 2000's I shot quite a few deer with my Marlin 1894C and 180 grain WFN GC's going around 1750 fps. None moved more than 30 yards after being hit, with most of them going down where they stood. Holes were thumb sized all the way through. Put a hole that big through the vitals and they expire quickly.

[RayF]

What's a better deer rifle? .357 Magnum or 45 Long Colt?
What bullet would you recommend?
Thanks

My humble opinion: They’re close enough in performance and range to pick whichever one talks to you.

[OverMax]

Don't take much bullet to kill a thin skin animal. I'd put my money down for a 357 shooter verses a 45 long colt.

[missionary5155]

A .357 reaches it's limits with 200+ pound whitetails. But it will do the job with good shot placement of a Wide FN 180+grain slug cast of softer side lead going fast.
While a 45 Colt can be loaded with a mere roundball cast of 40-1 and do the same job. If the deer are 200+ pounds up to 250 grains cast soft with a WFN and easy to do. Or jump to a 300 grain and go shoot bears, big pigs, .... far beyond the league of the .357.
Big holes are always better.

[megasupermagnum]

A .357 reaches it's limits with 200+ pound whitetails. But it will do the job with good shot placement of a Wide FN 180+grain slug cast of softer side lead going fast.
While a 45 Colt can be loaded with a mere roundball cast of 40-1 and do the same job. If the deer are 200+ pounds up to 250 grains cast soft with a WFN and easy to do. Or jump to a 300 grain and go shoot bears, big pigs, .... far beyond the league of the .357.
Big holes are always better.

I'd take you on that bet. If you are loading real 45 colt, not some super hotrod 454 in a 45 case, you are talking 255gr at about 1200 fps, and maybe 1100 tops with a 300 grain. That vs a 357 magnum, a 158 gr at around 2000 fps (Buffalo bore gets up to 2150 fps) or 180 gr at 1850 fps.

The 357 magnum is WAY more gun than a 45 colt. I don't care what kind of bullet you put in that 45 colt, a 357 magnum is going to make a far bigger hole unless you somehow make one hard enough that it doesn't expand. At the kinds of speeds they get in a rifle, it's going to expand. I'm not guessing, I can prove it on demand. My 327 federal rifle is more impressive than a 45 colt rifle, just go look in the hunting section to what it did to a full grown deer. When you can find a picture of a 45 colt (again, super hotroding to 454 levels does not count) that does that, you let me know. A 357 magnum is another step above that.

[TMB]

In a new model Ruger Blackhawk or Rossi 92, you can look at the 45 Colt the same way you would look at a 44 magnum. The Rossi 92 has been chambered in 44 mag and also 454 Casull I believe.

[mnewcomb59]

Even with 45 Colt +p it isn't nearly as flat shooting as a 357. Bullets with equal SD and BC will be about 300 fps slower in the 45 colt. For example a 255 is roughly equal to a 158 grain in sectional density but the 357 is at least 300 fps faster in that bullet weight.

The 45 Colt is an absolute hammer though, with muzzle energy exceeding a 30-30 and still more energy at 200 yards when shooting a 315 gr at 1600 fps. Too bad the 200 yard energy doesn't matter because it is 21" low. Maybe if I had a scope with turrets or drop lines. My peep can't be adjusted on the fly so I have it to shooting 1 inch high at 50 yards, zeroed at 85 yards and 1 inch low at 100. The rootinest tootinest 45 loads will only shoot flat for a max of 100 yards.

I use the 45 rifle on rainy or foggy days when deer driving. My 357 has a 3 MOA dot and gets used on fair days. The 357 is much easier to make hits at 150 and 200 yards, making it more ethical since 2 inches high at 75 is dead on at 135 and 2 inches low at 160. Literally no drop compensation at 150 - just hold dead on. 200 yard drop is only 8.5 inches and is still hitting as hard as a 4" 357 at the muzzle , 1297 fps 587 fpe.

I have killed a few deer with the 45 colt and have been impressed. 2 out of 3 deer were at full run and it rolled them. I have killed about 15 with the 357 rifle.

The hardest part about the 357 is making a tough ductile bullet that will withstand 1800-2000 fps impact velocity and give you controlled expansion. Many alloys will want to mushroom at those velocities and they will either fragment or mushroom huge and lose all the penetration. Compared to a 30-30 which might be fired with lead alloy bullets at similar weight and velocity, the 357 has low sectional density. You can let your 30-30 mushroom huge and run soft alloy if it is accurate and you will still get decent penetration. The 357 is low sectional density to start with, so it can only mushroom a small amount before penetration is sacrificed.

I like to use 2-2-96 water dropped for my deer drive bullets. This will mushroom anywhere from 60 cal at 5 yards to 45 cal at 100 yards and penetrates deep. Get it dialled in just right and you can get 5 water jugs penetration just like a 30-30 core lokt and a beautiful mushroom 55 caliber or so. I also use 2.5-2.5-95 AC for when we are not driving. This bullet mushrooms a little too much up close, but continues to mushroom all the way to 200 yards in the rifle. I like higher penetration bullets for drives because shots are close and never perfectly broadside. 5 jugs penetration is enough for a texas heart shot or break both shoulders of a buck and exit.

[outdoorfan]

I use lil gun in my 77/44 with a mid range book load. I’m sure I’ll never shoot it enough to ever hurt my gun.


Totally agree!

[outdoorfan]

I want to hear more about lilgun eating rifle barrel. I have an unopened 4lb jug and have been hesitant to work up loads not wanting to cause damage to any gun. plus I have other powders that work great for now. This is one of the first times ive heard of lilgun causing damage in rifle. Most of what I have read about it are people using it in wheel guns and the gap between cylinder and barrel has something to do with it.


I would not worry about it one bit. In a revolver, maybe. But for the few full power loads you're going to be shooting in the rifle (I'm assuming), you won't have an issue. Ranch Dog uses Lilgun in I think all his pistol carbines, and I don't think he's had an issue at all.

My .357 Rossi has had quite a few of them through it and still shoots lights out.

Just my opinion...

[mnewcomb59]

I also want to add that I am interested in your 45 +p data in long barrels if you have it.

Some of the loads in the new Western manual look really interesting. They have some loads with slower powders like AA 11FS and 1680 that have high charge weights and still make decent pressure. I know my 357 loads with Lil' Gun are full below the bullet and my 45 Colt loads with Lil' Gun have a decent amount of air space, telling me that the 45 colt could benefit from a slower powder that doesn't hit 30k psi as soon and makes more gas.

Anybody load any 45 colt with AA 11FS or 1680? If you can really get that much powder in there at those kind of pressures you might be able to get the 45 Colt 250 gr up around 2000 fps and 300 gr around 1800 fps without exceeding 30k psi.

[outdoorfan]

Even with 45 Colt +p it isn't nearly as flat shooting as a 357. Bullets with equal SD and BC will be about 300 fps slower in the 45 colt. For example a 255 is roughly equal to a 158 grain in sectional density but the 357 is at least 300 fps faster in that bullet weight.

The 45 Colt is an absolute hammer though, with muzzle energy exceeding a 30-30 and still more energy at 200 yards when shooting a 315 gr at 1600 fps. Too bad the 200 yard energy doesn't matter because it is 21" low. Maybe if I had a scope with turrets or drop lines. My peep can't be adjusted on the fly so I have it to shooting 1 inch high at 50 yards, zeroed at 85 yards and 1 inch low at 100. The rootinest tootinest 45 loads will only shoot flat for a max of 100 yards.

I use the 45 rifle on rainy or foggy days when deer driving. My 357 has a 3 MOA dot and gets used on fair days. The 357 is much easier to make hits at 150 and 200 yards, making it more ethical since 2 inches high at 75 is dead on at 135 and 2 inches low at 160. Literally no drop compensation at 150 - just hold dead on. 200 yard drop is only 8.5 inches and is still hitting as hard as a 4" 357 at the muzzle , 1297 fps 587 fpe.

I have killed a few deer with the 45 colt and have been impressed. 2 out of 3 deer were at full run and it rolled them. I have killed about 15 with the 357 rifle.

The hardest part about the 357 is making a tough ductile bullet that will withstand 1800-2000 fps impact velocity and give you controlled expansion. Many alloys will want to mushroom at those velocities and they will either fragment or mushroom huge and lose all the penetration. Compared to a 30-30 which might be fired with lead alloy bullets at similar weight and velocity, the 357 has low sectional density. You can let your 30-30 mushroom huge and run soft alloy if it is accurate and you will still get decent penetration. The 357 is low sectional density to start with, so it can only mushroom a small amount before penetration is sacrificed.

I like to use 2-2-96 water dropped for my deer drive bullets. This will mushroom anywhere from 60 cal at 5 yards to 45 cal at 100 yards and penetrates deep. Get it dialled in just right and you can get 5 water jugs penetration just like a 30-30 core lokt and a beautiful mushroom 55 caliber or so. I also use 2.5-2.5-95 AC for when we are not driving. This bullet mushrooms a little too much up close, but continues to mushroom all the way to 200 yards in the rifle. I like higher penetration bullets for drives because shots are close and never perfectly broadside. 5 jugs penetration is enough for a texas heart shot or break both shoulders of a buck and exit.


Which 158 gain lead bullet are you using in the .357?

I've had very similar results (in testing on milk jugs) with the 360640 cup HP (153 grains) with 50/50 HTed for ~20 bhn. The nose blows off, but the penetration is still very good, even at 2000 fps impact velocity. I haven't hunted with it.

[Lloyd Smale]

Sorry but have to disagree. The .357 and the .45LC are both adequate deer cartridges, but when you look at the energy retention of the. 357 at 100 yards, I wouldn't consider a .357 beyond 100yards for deer. For the same reason I wouldn't try to drive a fence post with a 6 oz ball peen hammer.

A 287 gr Ranch Dog still retains over 1000 ft lbs at 150 yards. So I think the .45LC the better choice.

i agree. Lots of hopla posted about 357s thats just bs. its not a 3030 and never will be. ESPECIALLY if your talking out past a 100yards. Now 45vs357. This is a cast bullet forum so im assuming your taking cast bullets. If so bullet diameter means more then velocity and so does weight. Ask yourself if youd rather have a 357 shooting a 158 at 1800 or a 45 colt shooting a 300 at 1400 if a big bear was after you. Ya deer arent bear. You dont have to point that out but is sure shows which is more powerful Now if you loading your 357 with good jacketed bullets and im talking deer not bear, the 357 can at a 100 yards or less give the 3030 a run for its money. Truth be told id take the good old 3030 with some 150 corelocks over either of them. It does as well at close range and better out past a 100 yards. I dont know what loading manual some look at but a 158 at 1800 with a much poorer bc then a 150 out of a 3030 at 2200 sure doesnt look like an even match tom. Thats 400 fps. twice the difference between a 3006 and a 300 mag and with a bc that as bad as a piece of 2x4. comparing the 357 to the 3030 is about as silly as comparing the 357 to the 45 colt. Dont know if the original poster really didnt know or if he just wanted to start a discussion but if youve actually used cast bullets to kill things we all know what the answer is. numbers dont kill bullets do.

[JoeJames]

i agree. Lots of hopla posted about 357s thats just bs. its not a 3030 and never will be. ESPECIALLY if your talking out past a 100yards. Now 45vs357. This is a cast bullet forum so im assuming your taking cast bullets. If so bullet diameter means more then velocity and so does weight. Ask yourself if youd rather have a 357 shooting a 158 at 1800 or a 45 colt shooting a 300 at 1400 if a big bear was after you. Ya deer arent bear. You dont have to point that out but is sure shows which is more powerful Now if you loading your 357 with good jacketed bullets and im talking deer not bear, the 357 can at a 100 yards or less give the 3030 a run for its money. Truth be told id take the good old 3030 with some 150 corelocks over either of them. It does as well at close range and better out past a 100 yards. I dont know what loading manual some look at but a 158 at 1800 with a much poorer bc then a 150 out of a 3030 at 2200 sure doesnt look like an even match tom. Thats 400 fps. twice the difference between a 3006 and a 300 mag and with a bc that as bad as a piece of 2x4. comparing the 357 to the 3030 is about as silly as comparing the 357 to the 45 colt. Dont know if the original poster really didnt know or if he just wanted to start a discussion but if youve actually used cast bullets to kill things we all know what the answer is. numbers dont kill bullets do.

All in all, that is one reason I carry a Ruger BH 41/2" in 44 Special with .430" 240 grain cast swc's running @894 fps when I am walking around my place. Another reason is because it is so dern accurate.

[mnewcomb59]

Truth be told id take the good old 3030 with some 150 corelocks over either of them. It does as well at close range and better out past a 100 yards. I dont know what loading manual some look at but a 158 at 1800 with a much poorer bc then a 150 out of a 3030 at 2200 sure doesnt look like an even match tom. Thats 400 fps.

Just a couple things to add : The difference is more like 100 fps between 30-30 and 357. 158 gr with 19 gr Lil' Gun goes 2050 fps. Our old stack of 150 Core Lokts go 2160 fps in the 20 inch carbine. My bullet has a BC very similar to the 30-30 because it is a LFN BC .18, not a SWC which is dramatically less aerodynamic bc .11. The 30-30 BC is .21. The 30-30 has about 5% more energy at the muzzle and 10% more energy at 200 yards than the 357. But, like you pointed out above, bullet diameter dramatically affects killing power. For a hypothetical 200 yard shot, would you rather be hit by a round nose 30 cal at 1400 fps or a flat meplat from a 36 cal at 1300 fps? One is going to make a wider wound and the other will make a narrow wound smaller than a pencil.

Also like you pointed out above, bullet diameter and weight mean more than velocity. Why would you want the 30-30 over the 45 Colt for things bigger than deer? The 45 doesn't shoot as flat but it has way more killing power than the 30-30. The bullet is more than twice as heavy, wider and has more energy. Any way you slice it, TKO, FPE, Momentum- the 45 Colt is more gun than the 30-30. 1500 fpe 30 cal vs 1700 fpe 45 cal is no brainer for killing power.

Outdoorfan - I use the NOE 154 WFN with the small meplat and long ogive. This bullet loads longer than 1.59" but it feeds in multiple Rossis that I have tried it in. NOE lists the BC as .21 but I think it is a little optimistic. It is definitely the most aerodynamic 158 that I have found and it shoots great.

https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/358/360-154-wfn-an1/360-154-wfn-an1-5-cavity-gc/

One final thing to add - pretty much nobody is able to get full power loads in the 30-30 unless they are running a pretty hard alloy. Most guys on here are using 30 grains of powder to shoot a hard, skinny 150-170 grain bullet at less than 2000 fps. The average 30-30 cast load uses 50% more powder to shoot a bullet 100-200 fps slower than my 357 hunting loads. The 357 rifle compares very favorably to 30-30 jacketed loads but in general shoots 200 fps faster than 30-30 lead loads while using less powder and having a mild muzzle blast.

[outdoorfan]

Outdoorfan - I use the NOE 154 WFN with the small meplat and long ogive. This bullet loads longer than 1.59" but it feeds in multiple Rossis that I have tried it in. NOE lists the BC as .21 but I think it is a little optimistic. It is definitely the most aerodynamic 158 that I have found and it shoots great.

https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/358/360-154-wfn-an1/360-154-wfn-an1-5-cavity-gc/




That's the same, pretty much, as the 360-640 that I use. I've tested BC at .16. The C358-180 (Lars design) is also .16 due to the wider meplat.

[mnewcomb59]

That's the same, pretty much, as the 360-640 that I use. I've tested BC at .16. The C358-180 (Lars design) is also .16 due to the wider meplat.

You should try this one! I will send you some if you want. This meplat is smaller than the 360640 and the ogive is longer so the BC has to be a little better.

[outdoorfan]

You should try this one! I will send you some if you want. This meplat is smaller than the 360640 and the ogive is longer so the BC has to be a little better.


I'll pm you. Thanks

[Lloyd Smale]

tko does little and neither does energy. A cast 45 colt will put most of its energy in the dirt on the other side of the deer. If you are one that believes in energy or shocking power do the old trick i was told about many years ago. Hang a 100 lb sack of corn on your clothes line pole and shoot it with a 300 wby and what will you see? A bag that barely moves. THe 3030 kills better then it should because it is the only round (that i know of) that has a bullet specificaly made for its velocity. It expands every time and causes massive internal damage. Ive shot deer with a 500 linebaugh and had them walk away like they werent hit. Why? Because it punched a clean hole through the deer and probably the tree behind it. Ask John Linebaugh his experience with bison with a 500. He shot one and it kept eating grass for a couple minutes and tipped over dead. It didnt even walk let alone run. Ive shot MANY deer with cast bullets out of 44s 45s 475s and 500s. I know exactly what happens when i shoot. Ive also probably shot more deer with high powered rifles using jacketed bullets then anyone here and pretty much know what they do. MATH DOES NOT KILL. Ive never shot a deer with a 357 anything and probably never will. But have shot deer with the 358 and 356 at much higher velocity using both cast and jacketed and I was never impressed with those using cast bullets. Now talk a 44 or 45 and you have an argument as long as your talking out to a 100 yards. those bullets just cause more damage. But even they if i was honest a jacketed bullet works better for deer sized game. Cast comes into its own when DEAP penetration is an advantage. Not saying a cast bullet wont kill a deer. Ive shot many deer bear and pigs myself with them and even a number of bison. 357 lever guns are fun. I have a marlin myself and its a ball to shoot. Especially with 38s but if im going to kill an animal i feel i owe it to the animal to leave the marginal stuff at home. Ive got nothing to prove to anyone.

[outdoorfan]

But have shot deer with the 358 and 356 at much higher velocity using both cast and jacketed and I was never impressed with those using cast bullets.


Lloyd, I don't understand how you were displeased with the 358 and 356. Can you expound? Velocity, bullet weight, alloy/bhn, etc?

I thought these were great, and I have had good limited success with the Whelen with a 250 grain cast bullet at 2350 fps.

[Lloyd Smale]

they are great rounds outdoors. Couple of the best deer bear and pig slappers ever made. But with jacketed bullets. Ive killed quite a few animals with cast bullets. So i wont tell you what some internet expert said or what some gun writer said. ill tell you what ive seen with my own two eyes and that is that i always preach that cast bullets for big game start at 35 cal and even at 35 are marginal. Real killing cast bullets start with the first number being a 4. Yup there will always be some guy that will claim he killed one or two just fine with a 357 but kill 25 and come back to me and give me your opinion. Some will say that 2000 fps makes up the differnce between a 44 mag at 1300. I say thats complete bs. We have done LOTS of penetration testing and if anything penetration suffers at anything over 1200 and goes to hell in a handbasket at over 1400. Ive seen bullets dive right out of the penetration box after only a couple inches of penetration. Jacketed kill with shorter wider wound channels. Cast doesnt give the wider wound channel so it relys more on a smaller longer wound channel to do its damage. If cast bullets were superior in rifles wed see factory ammo switching to cast bullets because there cheaper to make. I dont fool much with cast in rifles anymore. Other then plinking ammo in the 357 and hunting ammo in the 44mag and 45 colt, 4570 444 ect. But i dont roar any of them. All are kept under 1400 fps. Only long guns under 35 cal i cast for are the 300 bo, 300hamr plinking loads and i do have a stash of 223 bullets that i never really had any luck with for accuracy but i guess if shtf theyd allow my guns to go bang.

[outdoorfan]

Lloyd, with the 35's, did you try all sorts of different combinations, or was it mostly medium hard or harder?

My limited results were with a hard shank, soft nose. 35 Whelen kills at 25-300 yards were really good. But only killed maybe 6-8 deer, although I don't really remember exactly how many.

Just trying to learn from other people's experience in what in this case didn't work for them (you).

I also have seen how penetration really is decreased as velocity goes up.

Thanks

[boommer]

45 LC hands down in modern guns with hand loads it will smoke a 357 mag all day long !! apples to apples modern guns and loads

[Lloyd Smale]

Lloyd, with the 35's, did you try all sorts of different combinations, or was it mostly medium hard or harder?

My limited results were with a hard shank, soft nose. 35 Whelen kills at 25-300 yards were really good. But only killed maybe 6-8 deer, although I don't really remember exactly how many.

Just trying to learn from other people's experience in what in this case didn't work for them (you).

I also have seen how penetration really is decreased as velocity goes up.

Thanks

Problem with soft alloys is accuracy goes south when velocity get high. Now a two part bullet might work but its hard to get consistant performance out of them. I guess i think of it like this. Ive been a caster for almost 50 years. Ive tried about all of it. Ive shot game with about all of it. I dont need to experiment or prove my bullets are effective. I about know what works and what doesnt on deer. Personaly if im going to harvest a living animal that might suffer if my bullet doesnt perform ive lost that need to brag i used my own cast bullet. A box of jacketed bullets costs what? Maybe 40 bucks. For 40 bucks you get a 100 bullets so lets just say the ability to kill 40 deer. So a buck a pop. Thats nothing. There are times that cast bullets just make sense. They in my opinion are superior to cast if your going after something bigger then say 500 lbs with larger bone but im not doing that with my 356 anyway. Those are the once in a lifetime big dollar hunts that im going to take the proper tool to the battle with. I want to KNOW that if a big elk or moose steps out at 300 yards i have enough gun and a proper bullet for the job. Like i said cast bullets work great on deer pigs black bear ect too if you follow the rule "first number should at least be a 4" Ive killed rabbits and turkeys and grouse with my 357s. But ive got better guns for big game. So why would i bother trying to make one into something it isnt when i can enjoy it for what it is.

[CTI1USNRET]

45 LC hands down in modern guns with hand loads it will smoke a 357 mag all day long !! apples to apples modern guns and loads

357 mag vs 45 Colt. I'll go with the 45 Colt. ... but ...

Dead is dead. I have nothing bad to say about the 357 Mag in a lever gun.

The 45 Colt can be loaded almost to the level of a lite 45-70 Govt. It can easily take an American Bison and anything less.

Love my 20" Rossi R92 'El Jefe' lever action in 45 Colt. Using the factory buckhorn sights it's easy to hit the steel deer at 200 yards with my handloads.

[farmbif]

that 45 colt load your after 255gr at 2000 fps, I'm not sure but maybe if you had a modern 1892 with a 24" and 24 grains of #9 or 27 grains of 4100/enforcer. is about as fast as you might get that slug going. I have no idea what velocity you might get. I called it quits at 21 grains of 4227 in my Rossi 92 45colt with a 265 grain 454360 right at 1200fps and figured if I want a 250 grain slug to go faster I'd do it with a 44 mag rifle or get 2000fps accomplished with no problem in the 444

[r80rt]

Deer are thin skinned, light boned and easy to kill. A .357 does the job just fine, a.45 works just fine too. People kill them with bows and arrows all the time, jeeze.

[mnewcomb59]

that 45 colt load your after 255gr at 2000 fps, I'm not sure but maybe if you had a modern 1892 with a 24" and 24 grains of #9 or 27 grains of 4100/enforcer. is about as fast as you might get that slug going. I have no idea what velocity you might get. I called it quits at 21 grains of 4227 in my Rossi 92 45colt with a 265 grain 454360 right at 1200fps and figured if I want a 250 grain slug to go faster I'd do it with a 44 mag rifle or get 2000fps accomplished with no problem in the 444

I got two pounds of AA 11FS and worked up some loads with it. No chrono yet but 28.5 gr with a 454190 GC was the hardest kicking thing I ever shot through my Marlin. After about 50 rounds of that my forearm tip tenon was bent and pulling out of the dovetail and the magazine tube pin near the muzzle beat its dovetail until the dovetail deformed. I had to scrounge some used parts on ebay and just got the gun reassembled. I am still curious but I haven't decided if I am gonna load some more because Marlin parts are sold out everywhere. I bet I was shooting that 260 grain bullet at 2000 fps.

[jreidthompson1]

11 FS ruger load data 7.26 inch barrel from

https://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/load_data_11FS.pdf


45 COLT 30,000 PSI - HIGH PRESSURE LOADS
Barrel: 7.26” ¦ Twist: 1-16” ¦ Primer: REM 2 ½ ¦ Bullet Diameter: 0.452”
Case: REM ¦ Max Case Length: 1.285” ¦ Trim Length: 1.275”
ACCURATE NO. 11FS
255 (L) LC SWC 24.2 1,287 28.4 1,549 29,041 1.604
300 (L) LC FP 19.4 1,146 22.8 1,353 29,387 1.566
325 (L) MBW SWCGCDC 17.1 1,031 20.2 1,223 28,984 1.570
335 (L) CP WLNGC 19.7 1,124 23.2 1,317 29,976 1.665
360 (L) CP WLNGC 17.9 1,059 21.1 1,231 29,751 1.670
395 (L) CP WLNGC 15.5 954 18.2 1,120 29,897 1.670

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk

[Good Cheer]

Just another .45 Colt load.
Touching up the nose with the Forster hollow pointer would make it pop open further away than I could shoot with it.
https://i.imgur.com/29sKfYR.jpg

[Jeff Michel]

Nice looking bullet, what rifle are you using it in? OAL?
Thanks,
Jeff

[pmer]

I'd say mnewcomb59 has really nailed it for getting the most out of a 357 in a carbine. I have one in a 16" Rossi but don't have anything cast hard enough to take that level of impact velocity.

Would the people who are poo - pooing the 357 In a long barrel also be critical of the 300 Blackout?

I've seen Lloyd sing praise of a all copper 125 grain hp in the BO.

[gwpercle]

Lets clarify a few things :
We talking modern rifles like Winchester model 92 or 94 .
Handloads not limited to 45 Colt black powder low pressure loads .
Not limited to factory ammo but using ammo we handload .
If yes ... Then 45 Colt !
Bullet of choice - Lyman #454424 - 255 gr. SWC

Being a graduate of the Elmer Keith school of thought ...
A big heavy slug will kill deer better than a smaller lighter faster one .
Gary

[Wireman134]

What's a better deer rifle? .357 Magnum or 45 Long Colt?
What bullet would you recommend?
Thanks

310gr Lee RF

[Griff]

The 45 Colt verse the 45 Long Colt nomenclator has be going on for over a hundred years. While the term Long Colt has never been an official designation it is helpful for the masses to ensure they get the proper ammo. That was true in the day when the Schofield was common and even more true today with non-gun types have confusion over the 45 ACP verse the other 45 Cal options.

https://www.ammoland.com/2016/09/45-colt-vs-45-long-colt/#axzz64pASHVlXNot quite the whole story. There was a round that was called the 45 Colt Government. Shorter than the 45 Colt and loaded with 28 grains of BP using the same 250 grain round nose. Discontinued well before WWII, and not seen since... except:
The Long & Short of the .45 Colt (https://leverguns.com/articles/taylor/45_short_colt.htm). But even that does nothing to alter the fact that 45 Colt is the name of the cartridge under discussion. No "long" about it.

As for a bullet in the 45 Colt? I happen to like the ~228 grain TC I get from the RCBS 45-225-CAV. It has a nice wide meplat (wide enough), a good sized grease groove suitable for smokeless or BP, a crimp groove... and feeds like a champ thru any of the 5 - 45 Colt leverguns I have. 1 - Rossi, 2 - Ubertis, & 1 Marlin. With 37 or so grains of 3F or Goex "Cartridge" in modern cases, it smacks with authority. None of the critters I've shot so far have gotten up and laughed. 311853

[Seeker]

I honestly can't speak for the 357 mag. but I shot a big doe that was quartered to me left to right at about 70 yds. with my Henry BB .45 colt and a Lee 255 RF. The not a hot load of Unique entered just left of the breast bone and went clear through and exited just in front of the deer's left hind quarter. She was dead and didn't even know it.

[Good Cheer]

Not quite the whole story. There was a round that was called the 45 Colt Government. Shorter than the 45 Colt and loaded with 28 grains of BP using the same 250 grain round nose. Discontinued well before WWII, and not seen since... except:
The Long & Short of the .45 Colt (https://leverguns.com/articles/taylor/45_short_colt.htm). But even that does nothing to alter the fact that 45 Colt is the name of the cartridge under discussion. No "long" about it.

As for a bullet in the 45 Colt? I happen to like the ~228 grain TC I get from the RCBS 45-225-CAV. It has a nice wide meplat (wide enough), a good sized grease groove suitable for smokeless or BP, a crimp groove... and feeds like a champ thru any of the 5 - 45 Colt leverguns I have. 1 - Rossi, 2 - Ubertis, & 1 Marlin. With 37 or so grains of 3F or Goex "Cartridge" in modern cases, it smacks with authority. None of the critters I've shot so far have gotten up and laughed. 311853

45-225-CAV works well in a Walker. Being basically a short maxi maybe it would be good in a percussion rifle.

[Jedman]

On the survey I answered the 45 Colt is better but after thinking on it maybe not better for everyone.
I have taken deer with both calibers actually more with the 357 but like the saying , put the bullet where it should go and the deer wount know.
I’m pretty sure that there are many thousands of hunters that would say that the 357 is their favorite deer caliber. To someone who has a 357 they like and have had no problems killing everything they used it for they would gain nothing switching to a 45 Colt.
By hand loading your hunting ammunition both give you many options so I am now more convinced that it’s a draw between the two in a rifle.
Jedman

[Rapier]

Properly loaded the 357 mag w a 200 gr cast is very accurate and quite effective. I have watched many folks shoot 45 and 44sn matches out to 200 and a watched the 357s with heavy bullets beat the pants off the competition. Accuracy is not one thing or is everything. The was a match director for 40+ years. My Martini will kill a deer like a lightning bolt.

[freakonaleash]

I'm sure you can kill deer with both but I wouldn't choose either. 38 55 would be my choice. The last deer I killed i used an 1860 army C&B revolver with a .44 round ball and 30gr black powder. No big deal.

[hawkeye1]

I go with the 45 Colt, my personal favorite for plinking, steel, and not too distant deer. 270 SAA with W231. Like it’s always said, if I do my part, the 45 Colt will do it’s.

[9mmskng]

I'm going with 44mag😉

[vonfilm]

I believe that the .45 Colt is a better caliber for deer hunting and I hope to take one with my Rossi R92 one day.

That being said, my only deer with a pistol caliber was with my Marlin 1894 .357 and 158 JSP-a heart lung shot at 20 yards and it didn’t run 10 feet.

[BB57]

I have:

- a 20” Rossi 92 carbine in .45 Colt;
- a 24” Armi Sport 1892 rifle in .45 Colt;
- a 20” Rossi 92 short rifle in .357 Mag; and
- a 24” Rossi 92 rifle in .357 Mag.


The .45 Colt arguably has more punch, when loaded to 30,000-32,000 psi .44 magnum levels of performance. But with those loads it also has a lot more recoil and accuracy also isn’t nearly as good as the .357 Magnum rifles.

The .357 Mag rifles will launch a 158 gr bullet at a bit over 1800 fps, and retain 640 ft pounds and 1350 fps at 150 yards. That’s a bit better than the performance of a 4” .357 Mag revolver at the muzzle.

Both my .357 Mag Rossi 92s are also 2 MOA accurate. That combination makes them a credible deer taking tool out to 150 yards.

My .45 Colt carbine, launching a 250 gr bullet at 1500 fps has about 25 yards less range in terms of point blank trajectory, and hits the 640 ft pound mark about 5 yards sooner than the .357 Mag. But it wins when it comes to momentum and bullet diameter. But it’s also down around the 4 MOA mark when it comes to accuracy, so it’s really a 100 yard cartridge.

—-

Both are comparable to a .38-55 loaded to black powder performance levels.

However, both come in a distant second and third to the 38-55, when it’s loaded to “old” smokeless powder levels with a 255 gr bullet at 1500 or so fps. With a 150 yard zero the 5” point blank range is 180 yards and it delivers 1190 fps and 800 ft pounds with both excellent momentum and sectional density.

At “modern” smokeless powder performance levels a .38-55 with a 255 gr bullet at 1725 fps and a 170 yard zero has a 5” point blank range of 200 yards where it delivers 1310 fps and 972 ft pounds.

—-

The .30-30 with a 150 gr RN fired from a .20” barrel falls below that 972 ft pound threshold at just 135 yards but holds on to the 640 ft pound threshold to 230 yards.


Consequently, owning lever actions in all of them, I rank them as follows based on power, accuracy and range from best to worst.

.38-55
.30-30
.357 Mag
.45 Colt

[mnewcomb59]

The .357 Mag rifles will launch a 158 gr bullet at a bit over 1800 fps, and retain 640 ft pounds and 1350 fps at 150 yards. That’s a bit better than the performance of a 4” .357 Mag revolver at the muzzle.



Lil' Gun shoots a 158 at 2050 fps in a 20" barrel. Try your calculator with a 158 at 2050 fps with .17 BC. Our old lot of 30-30 Core Lokt 150s go 2150 in the 20" barrel with a BC of .19.


It is so close to a 30-30 but it has a better diameter and more accuracy with a cast bullet. A 10" twist 30-30 will lose accuracy around 1800 fps with a 10 BHN bullet. AND it takes 30 grains of powder to shoot a mild load. The 357 with cast bullets is comparable to a 30-30 with jacketed bullets. Comparing cast bullet to cast bullet, the 357 has more power, TKO, FPE than the 30-30 when holding both to 10 BHN and 2 MOA accuracy standards. I will take the quieter, more effecient 357 every day with the short lever throw, short action, short overall length of rifle, lighter weight and 40% less gun powder for equal bullet weight and more velocity and softer lead.

Seriously guys, show me ANY 2050 fps 10 BHN 30-30 load that is accurate. It pretty much can't be done. Guys on here are shooting rock hard, skinny 30 cals with 28-30 grains of powder at 1800 fps and claiming it is better than a 357 rifle that has equal bullet weight, larger diameter and 200 fps more velocity; for years and years with their head in the sand and their thumb in their butt.

[r80rt]

Agreed.

[BB57]

Lil' Gun shoots a 158 at 2050 fps in a 20" barrel. Try your calculator with a 158 at 2050 fps with .17 BC. Our old lot of 30-30 Core Lokt 150s go 2150 in 20" barrel with a BC of .19.


It is so close to a 30-30 but it has a better diameter and more accuracy with a cast bullet. A 10" twist 30-30 will lose accuracy around 1800 fps with a 10 BHN bullet. AND it takes 30 grains of powder to shoot a mild load. The 357 with cast bullets is comparable to a 30-30 with jacketed bullets. Comparing cast bullet to cast bullet, the 357 has more power, TKO, FPE than the 30-30 when holding both to 10 BHN and 2 MOA accuracy standards. I will take the quieter, more effecient 357 every day with the short lever throw, short action, short overall length of rifle, lighter weight and 40% less gun powder for equal bullet weight and more velocity and softer lead.

Seriously guys, show me ANY 2050 fps 10 BHN 30-30 load that is accurate. It pretty much can't be done. Guys on here are shooting rock hard, skinny 30 cals with 28-30 grains of powder at 1800 fps and claiming it is better than a 357 rifle that has equal bullet weight, larger diameter and 200 fps more velocity; for years and years with their head in the sand and their thumb in their butt.

I based my numbers to some extent on what the average guy can obtain without going to extra ordinary casting and hand loading efforts. The 158 gr jacketed load mentioned above is a standard Federal load that can be found in both American Eagle and Champion boxes pretty much everywhere, even now.

Similarly, people can still find Buffalo Bore’s excellent 38-55 “heavy” load with some more intensive looking and there are a few different companies making cowboy loads for the .38-55.

And while the .350 Legend is taking up a lot of shelf space and production capacity that used to belong to the .30-30, .30-30 is once again back on store shelves with reasonable availability.

That said, I’m guilty of some of the same. The .38-55 tops my list as I’m a big fan of a 255 gr cast bullet with a soft 1:20 or 1:40 alloy at “old” smokeless powder velocities. IMHO it’s the sweet spot between accuracy, power, trajectory and frankly just plain fun.

I’m also partial to hunting with an old school 26” octagon barrel Model 94 rifle that weighs 8 pounds empty. My Model 92s are lighter and shorter, but I like the balance and shootability of the larger rifle.

[mnewcomb59]

I based my numbers to some extent on what the average guy can obtain without going to extra ordinary casting and hand loading efforts.

uhh ... We are on a casting and handloading site.... polling casters and handloaders... I am talking about book loads of Lil' Gun and range scrap BHN bullets- very ordinary, not extraordinary.

[Daekar]

uhh ... We are on a casting and handloading site.... polling casters and handloaders... I am talking about book loads of Lil' Gun and range scrap BHN bullets- very ordinary, not extraordinary.

I was gobsmacked when I saw the numbers that Lil'Gun put up in my Henry and Encore. Freaking magic, that stuff is. I don't load lead bullets to those velocities much anymore, but by golly it will do the job.

[Fauquier]

I prefer the 44 magnum also !

[BoBSavage]

As far as accuracy for older cartridges....

Townsand Whelen, 1920 (some shots, unknown which ones, used a scope)

CLASS A

2 INCHES AT 100 YARDS
4 INCHES AT 200 YARDS

280 Ross
30 cal Model 1906
30-40 Krag and Winchester
30 cal Model 1903
256 Mannlicher Schoenauer
25-35 WCF (in single shot)

CLASS B

2 1/2 INCHES AT 100 YARDS
6 INCHES AT 200 YARDS

7 mm Mauser
8 mm Mauser
32 Ideal
303 British
303 Savage
25-35 Rem Auto
25-35 Marlin
25-30 WCF Low pressure smokeless
25-20 Single Shot
25-21 Stevens
25-25 Stevens
28-30 Stevens
22 Long Rifle (in target rifle)

CLASS C

3 INCHES AT 100 YARDS
8 INCHES AT 200 YARDS

30-30 WCF
35 Rem Auto
35 WCF 405 WCF
45-70 Black and Smokeless
32-40 Low pressure smokeless
33 WCF
32 Winchester Self Loading
32-20
25 Rimfire
38-55 (does not specify which loads i.e. Black Powder, Low pressure smokeless, H.V. or H.P.)
22-15 Stevens

CLASS D

3 1/2 INCHES AT 100 YARDS
12 INCHES AT 200 YARDS

32 Win Special
351 Win Self Loading
351 Self Loading
32 Rem Auto
45-70 (did not specify which load)
45 90 HV
25-20 HV and Black powder
32-20 HV
38 WCF
44 WCF
401 Win Self Loading

I feel confident that both the 357 and 45 Colt will hang in there at the bottom of Class D or less? Would be interesting to see some targets.

[WILCO]

Distance dependant with 357. Run with a 170+ in the 357 and your good. As above, shot placement trumps alot. The 45 can be pushed pretty hard in an 1892 action but if ya can't hit the barn door...

I consider both brush guns and i'm only confident with the irons to about 80 yards.

Agreed!

[jimb16]

And what precisely does all this have to do with the original question, .357 vs .45 colt?

[T.R.]

I have zero experience with the 45 but have taken game as large as elk with my .357 revolver. This cow was shot at a distance of about 60 feet. My 158 grain hollow tip penetrated the chest organs. My second shot was taken at about 30 yards as the animal trotted away at a slight angle and badly ruptured the liver. But after travelling about 100 yards or so, this elk lay down and I cleared out so it would not get up and run. An hour later I returned to find it dead. - TR

317903

[jonp]

I have zero experience with the 45 but have taken game as large as elk with my .357 revolver. This cow was shot at a distance of about 60 feet. My 158 grain hollow tip penetrated the chest organs. My second shot was taken at about 30 yards as the animal trotted away at a slight angle and badly ruptured the liver. But after travelling about 100 yards or so, this elk lay down and I cleared out so it would not get up and run. An hour later I returned to find it dead. - TR

317903

Sweet. I took a 180lb whitetail at 35yrds with a Ruger GP100 and iron sights using Corelokt factory. Broke the shoulder and went into both lungs