Load Development For Sharps?

[Michael J. Spangler]

Hello

So I have a Pedersoli Long Range Express. in 45/70 that I would like to work up a load for.

I have a Lyman 457132 and also the Lyman 457658

I hear the 457648 can be finicky and I'm better off shooting the 457132.

I was paper patching the bullets and have had accuracy results consistent with the greasers I shoot. No load development done really just picking a load from the middle of the data and shooting it.

I have a few of powders suggested for this bullet (H4198, RL7X, IMR30301, Varget) and I'm wondering If I should bother working with them or to move on to accurate 5744 which seems to be the cats meow for most of these straight walled old cartridges?
Am I wasting time loading up a bunch of test loads with these other powders or not?

Oh and I'm shooting the rifle off of bags using Pedersoli mid range Soule rear and a Lyman globe front with a post insert.

Thanks guys!

[Guy La Pourqe]

I’m no expert, but I am burning 3031 in mine and it leaves a lot of half-burned powder behind, and that is with Dacron filler. I’d go straight to 5744 before stocking up on 3031.

[Michael J. Spangler]

What weight bullet are you using?

[Boz330]

How about BP that is what the rifle was designed for in the first place. It works for thousands of shooters nation wide. I just got back from a thousand yard match where that was all that was used. The winning score was almost 400 out of a possible 500. That doesn't sound like much of handicap.

Bob

[Michael J. Spangler]

How about BP that is what the rifle was designed for in the first place. It works for thousands of shooters nation wide. I just got back from a thousand yard match where that was all that was used. The winning score was almost 400 out of a possible 500. That doesn't sound like much of handicap.

Bob

Nah I'm not going to mess with BP

[Chill Wills]

Nice try Bob! They think it is a mess - like changing diapers.

AA-5744 is a good choice but pricey.

The 45-70 is a great cartridge. It will eat most anything. Try a few.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Nice try Bob! They think it is a mess - like changing diapers.

AA-5744 is a good choice but pricey.

The 45-70 is a great cartridge. It will eat most anything. Try a few.

Hahaha. Yeah I just don’t have a desire which would make it seem like a chore I think.
I shoot a muzzleloader from time to time and have BP sitting around.
Just prefer smokeless.

[Guy La Pourqe]

Hahaha. Yeah I just don’t have a desire which would make it seem like a chore I think.
I shoot a muzzleloader from time to time and have BP sitting around.
Just prefer smokeless.

Well it sure smells like changing diapers! :) I dabble with The Holy Black in summer but in winter it is just too much of a pain. There are no other BPCR geeks in my neck of the woods either so it makes it kinda tough to learn the ropes. Everything I learn about it has to come from here for the most part.

[RedlegEd]

Hi Michael,
In addition to AA5744, you can also try Shooter's World Buffalo Rifle. I've used both and find no difference between the two, even using the exact same load recipes. If it's not available at your LGS, you can buy it online at Grafs & Sons (https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/77194). By the way, it's significantly less expensive than AA5744. Hope this helps. Ed

[Michael J. Spangler]

Hi Michael,
In addition to AA5744, you can also try Shooter's World Buffalo Rifle. I've used both and find no difference between the two, even using the exact same load recipes. If it's not available at your LGS, you can buy it online at Grafs & Sons (https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/77194). By the way, it's significantly less expensive than AA5744. Hope this helps. Ed
Thank you!!

I totally forgot about this stuff..... I'm going to have my LGS order some this week. He orders from Graf's on the regular.

[smithnframe]

Go with the Holy black if you want the best accuracy! If mediocrity is what you want then go with smokeless! Very easy cleanup with the BP also.
P.S. You're gonna need a blow tube!

[oldred]

Nah I'm not going to mess with BP

That was me until a couple of years ago when curiosity got the best of me and I tried a few rounds! :mrgreen:

Seriously I understand why you don't want to mess with black because it is more trouble than smokeless despite the "easy" to clean up that so often gets thrown in with the suggestions to use it. The fact is it's dirty, messy and requires immediate through cleaning of both the rifle and the brass plus blow tubes (optional), wiping the bore between shots, etc but it's a heck of a lot of fun and well worth the effort to some of us, the "extras" are just part of the sport.

Still BP is not for everyone and I only indulge on occasion, most of my big bore shooting (45/70-90) is with Varget. I personally prefer Varget over 5744 because of the case fill and lower extreme spreads plus slightly lower pressure at a given velocity and what seems to me to be better accuracy, but that just may be me. Both Varget and 5744 leave a lot of unburned powder but again the Varget leaves little or no air space vs a half empty case for the 5744 which is important to me whether it's justified or not. As far as accuracy I don't shoot competition and only out to about 600 yards max with most of my shooting being 100 to 200 yards at my home range so the accuracy advantage of the Varget vs 5744 may be more due to my bias toward it but it sure seems to work better for me.

Give BP a try you just might be surprised!

[marlinman93]

Go with the Holy black if you want the best accuracy! If mediocrity is what you want then go with smokeless! Very easy cleanup with the BP also.
P.S. You're gonna need a blow tube!

I would agree with BP being more accurate. I would also agree that it's not that hard to clean up......after a match. But watch anyone shooting BP during a match and you'll quickly appreciate how much more work it takes to shoot well during the match. Not just the blow tube, but the wiping, and cleaning. You might not do all those steps, but the best BP shooters in the country spend a lot of time between shots to ensure every shot is as good as possible.
So shooting smokeless is a heck of a lot easier; just not as accurate.

[MT Chambers]

I'd go with real BP as well, but for anything over 300 yds. I'd go for a heavier bullet like Saeco # 745 or the std. Lyman 457125, both shoot great for me with a compressed charge of Swiss 1 1/2fg.

[Guy La Pourqe]

Why do you guys use blow tubes? Wouldn’t it be better to wipe between the shots?

[Don McDowell]

Why do you guys use blow tubes? Wouldn’t it be better to wipe between the shots?

Sometimes maybe, sometimes not. The thing with wiping, when done correctly is faster and leaves a much more consistant bore condition in all atmospheric conditions than blow tubing.
For a hunting load it's completely possible to develop a load that will maintain minute of critter accuracy for way more shots than most folks would consider to still be called "hunting" without blow tubing or wiping.

[Boz330]

Why do you guys use blow tubes? Wouldn’t it be better to wipe between the shots?

In our area the blow tube works pretty good but we have a lot of humidity. Personally I have gone to wiping, I think it is more consistent from shot to shot. I saw some home made bore pigs this past weekend that I'm going to give a try. Much faster than 1 wet and 1 dry and the guy that showed them to me won the aggregate going away.
BP is definitely easier clean up but you have to clean within a reasonable amount of time. Much of the other stuff is extra compared to smokeless but I personally enjoy the whole process so isn't that much of a chore. As far as cleaning the brass I do that regardless on my smokeless loads anyway.

Nice try Bob! They think it is a mess - like changing diapers.

AA-5744 is a good choice but pricey.

The 45-70 is a great cartridge. It will eat most anything. Try a few.

Chill, I believe that my 45-70 Pedersoli Sharps is the easiest BPC rifle I've ever worked a load up for. No wait my C-Sharps 38-55 with a Badger barrel was pretty easy with both BP and smokeless.
If you want dirty and messy The Gibbs long range ML rifle gets my nod. It takes me 3 days to get my hands clean after those LR matches. Cleaning the gun isn't bad just my hands.

Bob

[ian45662]

Bob was that me that showed you the brushes? Brent Danielson came up with those and he was nice enough to show me how to make them. They work great.


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[MT Chambers]

Sometimes the bore is too dry to just use a patch and a cleaning rod, and you need to blowtube it anyways, or use a wet patch every shot but that means 2 patches.

[marlinman93]

Bore pigs and wiping between each round is more consistent than blow tubing. Since blow tube can be different even if you do a certain number of breaths. Too many variables to be consistent.
BACO sells bore pigs that can be cleaned and reused if you don't want to make them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysyE0BI1dz4

[oldred]

Reading the last few posts gives ample reason why some folks don't want to mess with BP and while to some of us those things are just part of the sport and not a nuisance at all it is just too much of a hassle for others or they had just simply rather not bother and we need to respect that. While obviously folks have been polite in their replies and no one in this thread has chided anyone for not using BP we see it all the time and that's just not fair, encouraging folks to try BP is a great idea but unfortunately too many tend to take it a lot further than that! If all replies to the BP issue were as polite as has been here it would be a lot better for all concerned. I have noticed that lately on this forum at least the attitude has improved a lot and it's been a long time since we have seen anyone trying to chastise someone for not wanting to use BP in a particular caliber, I wish it was like that everywhere but unfortunately it could be a lot better on some sites.

[KCSO]

With P/P I would use a 450 bullet patched to 456 or so and seated well intothe rifling with the patch over the ogive. Let the bullet slug up into the bore. For a naked slug either will work just try and seat into the rfiling a tad.

[rfd]

i started .45-70 loading/shooting with aa5744 lyman postel greasers. a good way to start but that was too complicated and messy (bullet lube). there had to be a better way - the paper patch way! just how these guns were loaded back in their day - real black powder under patched slick bullets. all the trepidation about black powder is nonsense, it's a piece of cake. wow, this is great! i ain't never going back to them greasers, no sir-eee.

easier than a greaser black powder .45-70 load is the same cartridge but with a bore rider PPB slick. far less muss 'n' fuss with a case full load of bp, under a wad that's pushed in about .1" past the case mouth, under a bore rider dry patched slick. no OAL to be concerned about. greaser chambers with all their freebore work fine enuf. just wipe between shots (one damp patch, one dry patch) and immediately water jug the fired brass. clean up is easy peasy for both the gun (no leading, no fouling, just a few patches with oil needed, bore is always bright and shiny) and the brass (ultra-sonic, tumble, vibratory, whatever). now that the brass is fire formed, no brass working press dies needed, either. just prime, charge, wad, compress, push in the PPB. life is good. :)

[Boz330]

Bob was that me that showed you the brushes? Brent Danielson came up with those and he was nice enough to show me how to make them. They work great.


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Ian, yes it was and thanks.
Went to Friendship yesterday and shot the Creedmoor targets for a little practice for Oak Ridge. Going by Ace today and see if They have those washers.

Bob

[Boz330]

I would never denigrate anyone for wanting to use smokeless. At one time I felt the same way. Deer hunting was what changed me over back in the early 90s, I was looking for more of a challenge than a laser flat 264 mag. Long shots are possible on the farm I hunt on but keeping shots close with irons and BP is more satisfying. I even went the next step and have been using my home made BP for the last couple years to hunt with.
Anyway that was how I got into BPCR competition. I'm not all that good but I have fun and try to spread the word.

Bob

[Washington1331]

It all depends what your final goal is there. Are you looking for plinking, casual shooting or are you looking to get into long range competition?

For plinking: I usually recommend using a boolit and powder combination that minimizes the amount of lead and powder you're using. Lyman makes a 130 grain collar button mold that which can be used to duplicate gallery loads from the old days. You're looking at around 1500 fps muzzle velocity, so probably good out to about 100 yards.

For Casual Shooting: I usually recommend the 405 grain lee 459HB. Personally I like to stuff that over 53 grains of 3Fg black powder to simulate the old trapdoor carbine rounds. You get all the boom, and smoke without the recoil. Since you don't want to use BP you can substitute AA-5744.

For long range: I'm going to have to defer to the others. It's been too long since my last Silhouette Match. If I remember correctly I was using a Lyman 500 grain grease boolit over 70 grains of black powder. You can again substitute AA-5744 and still keep your pressures down to around 16,000 psi at 1200ish fps.

AA-5744 can be a little pricey, but it was specifically designed to fill large volumes with a small weight of powder which makes it a very good choice to avoid hang fires and accuracy issues due to powder position.

Good luck with your endeavors. If you do decide to go to the dark side with black powder (all the cool kids are doing it), I highly recommend that you stay away from pyrodex and go with real black powder. I've seen pyrodex rust a gun to hell and gone in a relatively short time even after what was considered by the owner to be a through cleaning.

[rfd]

the materials i use to make brent's bore gophers, makes 'em perfect ...

https://i.imgur.com/Mr0OvRO.jpg

[Michael J. Spangler]

It all depends what your final goal is there. Are you looking for plinking, casual shooting or are you looking to get into long range competition?

For plinking: I usually recommend using a boolit and powder combination that minimizes the amount of lead and powder you're using. Lyman makes a 130 grain collar button mold that which can be used to duplicate gallery loads from the old days. You're looking at around 1500 fps muzzle velocity, so probably good out to about 100 yards.

For Casual Shooting: I usually recommend the 405 grain lee 459HB. Personally I like to stuff that over 53 grains of 3Fg black powder to simulate the old trapdoor carbine rounds. You get all the boom, and smoke without the recoil. Since you don't want to use BP you can substitute AA-5744.

For long range: I'm going to have to defer to the others. It's been too long since my last Silhouette Match. If I remember correctly I was using a Lyman 500 grain grease boolit over 70 grains of black powder. You can again substitute AA-5744 and still keep your pressures down to around 16,000 psi at 1200ish fps.

AA-5744 can be a little pricey, but it was specifically designed to fill large volumes with a small weight of powder which makes it a very good choice to avoid hang fires and accuracy issues due to powder position.

Good luck with your endeavors. If you do decide to go to the dark side with black powder (all the cool kids are doing it), I highly recommend that you stay away from pyrodex and go with real black powder. I've seen pyrodex rust a gun to hell and gone in a relatively short time even after what was considered by the owner to be a through cleaning.


I'm never going to see any competition in this part of the US. No ranges long enough and no interest in it as far as I can see.
I have a 500 yard range with some steel and my main goal would be to hit that consistently. I believe it's about 18"
The 200 and 300 yard steels aren't a big deal to hit. I think they're both about 12"

[rfd]

MJS - self imposed gun goals are fun and interesting, and always a challenge of sorts, which is a good thing. you would do well to begin a righteous 500 yard journey with paper patched bullets pushed by real black powder. it's not a drop dead complicated, frustrating proposition, it just takes understanding first and foremost. nor is the holy black worrisome about cleaning; it's too easy, and easier yet with a PPB bore rider. we're all now rediscovering the late 19th century principles of BP PPB cartridges that had been long lost, and how to apply them today. the bottom line is that you can easily make good cartridges right from the get-go and improve as time and shooting continues. much of the "paper patched bullet way" info can only be found in threads like this, from posts by folks who've put the time and toil in to figuring out the details. this specific info is not so prevalent in the current media, though there are a few good ones for ballpark starters. enjoy the journey and good luck.

[oldred]

I would never denigrate anyone for wanting to use smokeless. At one time I felt the same way. Deer hunting was what changed me over back in the early 90s, I was looking for more of a challenge than a laser flat 264 mag. Long shots are possible on the farm I hunt on but keeping shots close with irons and BP is more satisfying. I even went the next step and have been using my home made BP for the last couple years to hunt with.
Anyway that was how I got into BPCR competition. I'm not all that good but I have fun and try to spread the word.

Bob

Yep that's how it happens!

Also those who do denigrate or just criticize someone for wanting to use smokeless only drive folks away from BP and tend more to alienate the sport more than promote it. Personally I don't get to shoot BP nearly as much as some of the folks here because I will never be able to shoot competition for a variety of reasons but I still enjoy it all the same. Until not long ago I would never have thought I would even consider loading cartridges with BP but as I said earlier curiosity got the best of me and I got smitten with the first few rounds! Instead of criticizing folks for frowning on BP I like to get them to touch off a few rounds of 45-90 with a full load of FFG under a 500 grain bullet and watch the reactions, the "shock and awe" is just plain comical at times and while I always warn that recoil is a bit smart in the lighter rifle they most times seem quite surprised at just how powerful BP can be. The flash, boom and all that smoke has yet to fail bringing out the grins and chuckles followed by a multitude of questions, I pass on what I have learned about it but also point out there's a lot more and getting there is almost too much fun. Most everyone who has been introduced to my rifles and BP has left with a new interest and while not everyone will try it on their own they have all left with a new respect and point of view, I seriously doubt if anyone has been shamed or forcibly goaded into trying BP and I doubt anyone will.

[Boz330]

Yep that's how it happens!

Also those who do denigrate or just criticize someone for wanting to use smokeless only drive folks away from BP and tend more to alienate the sport more than promote it. Personally I don't get to shoot BP nearly as much as some of the folks here because I will never be able to shoot competition for a variety of reasons but I still enjoy it all the same. Until not long ago I would never have thought I would even consider loading cartridges with BP but as I said earlier curiosity got the best of me and I got smitten with the first few rounds! Instead of criticizing folks for frowning on BP I like to get them to touch off a few rounds of 45-90 with a full load of FFG under a 500 grain bullet and watch the reactions, the "shock and awe" is just plain comical at times and while I always warn that recoil is a bit smart in the lighter rifle they most times seem quite surprised at just how powerful BP can be. The flash, boom and all that smoke has yet to fail bringing out the grins and chuckles followed by a multitude of questions, I pass on what I have learned about it but also point out there's a lot more and getting there is almost too much fun. Most everyone who has been introduced to my rifles and BP has left with a new interest and while not everyone will try it on their own they have all left with a new respect and point of view, I seriously doubt if anyone has been shamed or forcibly goaded into trying BP and I doubt anyone will.

Ditto here.
I took a guy I fly for on the weekends to Friendship yesterday and we spent time blazing away at the Creedmoor targets. He had never used iron sights before, just scopes or barrel sights. He hit more than 50% of his shots at 500yds. He had never shot BP in a cartridge rifle before. Problem is that he makes his living on the weekends when everyone else is having fun. I'm not sure that he is hooked but he was looking up 77 Sharps rifles on his phone on the way back. He can shoot at my place anytime during the week and I've got a 300yd range. I could maybe get to 500 with the selective removal of some trees.


Bob