First results; not so good

[jonk]

So I tried the Lee 185 .312 sized to .308 and double wrapped to .316, then sized back down to .314. No luck, some leading. I mean, these didn't even all hit the cardboard! 3 foot group at 100 yards. This was from a 91 Argy Mauser long rifle. 19 gr of 4759. Figured I'd start with a load that usually does well for me in cast loading.

I think next I'll try them unsized, still at .316, if I can seat them that is.

On the plus side, I did do ok with some condom bullets that day. So it wasn't a wash entirely.

[docone31]

Isn't that rifle a 7.65?
I might have tried .316. It sounds like when I was finding the fit with my Smelly.
With two wraps of Meade tracing paper, I got .3135. I got 3ft groups at 100.
When I sized to .314, I got 1" at 100.
Slug your barrel, and then go .002 over.
Your ogive might be a little tight also. That would explain the leading, unless your patching let go.
I also use start load data for jacketeds. I do not go up from there.
It could be the light load, maybe loose fit, or the light load itself caused issues.
Boy, do I know that frustration. When I first started patching, I was lucky with 1 minute of berm!!!!
Now, I am real relaxed with my patches.

[eka]

Jonk, are the patches over the ogive a little? You also need the patch seated out against the lands, so there's no jump. If you have those bases covered, you may have an abrupt throat that is tearing back the patch. I don't have any experience with those rifles, so I don't know if that's even an issue to consider. I'm starting to see, with my limited experience in paper patch shooting, that my rifles like a pretty tight patch to land fit. What kind of paper?

Stay at it my man.

Keith

[docone31]

Yeah, stay with it!
I found it to be definately worth it.
Where the rifleing engages the casting, just behind that is where I put my patch. I use a roller, which makes them tight. When they shrink down on drying, the lands are distinctly visible. Sizing smoothes them out.
I also use JPW in my sizing.
It took me a while, but I got it.
Had to get Lee to modify my dies.
I sent em two patched castings, and two fired shells.
They done goo.

[jonk]

Perhaps a pic of a properly wrapped bullet? I find it hard to think that the bullet is wrapped to where the rifling engages; that is way up on the nose to begin with, no? I mean even for non bore riders.

Mine were past the bands on the bullet so I think that they were reaching the ogive, but wouldn't swear to it.

I was using some paper from a notepad I had lying around. I just grabbed it and measured it; .004, sounded good to start.

[docone31]

I have used notebook paper with excellent results!
Can you show us a pic?
That way you can hear a mess of opinions.
There are some really good photos in the paper patching threads. I used them to compare mine with. If you do not find any, when I come back I will try to find some threads.
They really helped me out.

[docone31]

Another thought,
With wrapping the .312 casting, how long is the patch?
I find mine are 2 3/16". That is with the base casting sized to .308. The same when I wrap my .30cals also.
I cut my patches with opposite 45* angles. If they are real wet, I do get some overlap. I have not found that to be an issue in my rifles.

[eka]

Jonk, the patch is going to be way up on the boolit. I think a sixteenth of an inch past where the ogive starts is about where you should be shooting for. The lands must engrave the patch and not the lead. If you engrave the lead ahead of the patch, the patch won't survive the trip down the barrel and you get leading and poor accuracy. I'll try to shoot a photo of one of my ugly ducklings this evening. I know Buckshot has posted a bunch of pics of his patching handy work. You're right, a picture does help a bunch. From reading your last post, I'm almost sure if you get that patch on up past the ogive and seat it out so the patch engraves the lands, you'll see some promising results.

Keith

[leftiye]

Da patch has to be fwd far enough that it is in the bore (smokeless) so that the paper slides over the lands instead of tearing off when it encounters them.

[jonk]

I'm gonna guess that at least some of mine weren't long enough then. If that's the case, then unlubed bullet + no gas check+ ripped off patch on at least some +undersized = a right awful mess!

Whether they can be seated out far enough to engrave on closing remains to be seen. If not- Longer bullet! :)

[docone31]

Jonk, I used to load with jacketeds to the canneleure. With paper, especially my .303 British, The base is just in the case. I do not load so the casting contacts the rifleing, I can still use the magazine.
I balance stability in loading with proximity to the rifleing. I do not believe, especially in my rifle, that it makes that much difference.
Slug it!!!!
My bore should be .303, it is .304. That makes a large difference! I also do not crimp the case.
It will take some firing of test loads to find the sweet spot. I probably went through 100rds of different sizes to find the sweet spot on mine.
Definately run the paper high on the casting, put it far enough out to be stable in the case, and play with sizing. I am wondering if .316 might be what the Dr. ordered. I used a drill bit backwards in the case to bell the case to load. I had collet dies, so, I put the shell on top of the shell holder to close the neck down on the patch. I did not crimp.
JPW, is friendly to paper. A dab will do ya.

[jonk]

Well I am doing some of that already; I am not crimping, just 'crimping' enough to take the bell out and straighten the case after expanding. I did use a dab of LLA, not having any JPW, smeared on with my fingers. For now I really don't care as the bore could USE some polishing and some abrasion would actually be welcome.

I think that slugging again to verify diameter and trying this again with patches a bit wider is in order.

[docone31]

Jonk, my Smelly had actuall hammer chatter on the rifleing. I had some unsized at .3135 jackets I made from Meade paper. I got some lapping compound, and lightly smeared on the patch the compound. I did 20 that way. I am not a big one on pulling unless it is dangerous, so I fired them.
Perhaps the extra thickness of the grit made the difference, but those loads were in the black instantly! I fired the next batch of thicker patches, and they were in the black!
I found my numbers.
When I checked the bore, it was amazing! No hammer marks at all. Smooth, shiney and the rifleing was well defined.
From that point on, I got better groups. I used real fine lapping compound, lightly. I did not want to machine the bore, just wipe it.
I was going to retire my Smelly to the fireplace. Now, it is my favourite.
I believe you will find the same things on your Argentine. Probably not the lapping compounc, but, the paper will polish the bore also.
Definately slug the bore, it will tell the tale.

[docone31]

These look about right, scroll down to the images.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=22387
These are from someone who has done them before.
Mine are not quite like these, but I am trying.

[eka]

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii255/donquijote_photos/Shooting%20Photos/DSC_0431.jpg

There you go. Thats the RCBS .375 boolit with two wraps of Premiere' tracing paper, sent through a .379 sizer with some Felix lube.

I told you they were ugly ducklings. Good thing ugly boolits still shoot and ugly flies still catch fish.

Keith

[Buckshot]

..............Jonk, yup something IS happening to the patch somewhere during the process of being chambered, fired and the boolit entering the barrel. The leading edge of the patch HAS to be protected to the point that the lands pass over the leading edge and press it down into the boolit. If it gets rumpled (tech term :-)) or torn it's worse then not being there at all.

"I was using some paper from a notepad I had lying around. I just grabbed it and measured it; .004, sounded good to start."

If you used 2 wraps of .004" paper twice around a .308" boolit it should have been measuring like .321" or so when dry? You SURE it was .004"? Take your mic and go to the arts and crafts store, and then the art dept. Check out some tracing paper. You'd be looking for the .0015" stuff. Drafting supplies are also a good place to investigate. Two wraps of that, stretched on well will add about .005" when dry.

If your rifle will accept a slug of .315" then size the slug .310" and patch it. If .314" is max then size the slug .309" (mic it to be sure your .309" die is doing it's job) then patch it. Once dry, check the OD over the paper. If .314" you're good to go. Lube and load. When you patch, try 2 things with the leading edge of the paper. One is to place the leading edge into the crimp groove. Alternatively, wrap the patch over the front of the crimp groove.

If wrapping OVER the crimp groove, place the leading edge so it is just over the front edge. When it dries, the tiny overhang will shrink and turn down over the edge. There's no reason you should have to patch out onto the nose (bore rider).

..................Buckshot

[arclight]

My 1891 Argentine has a very long lead. In fact, I can't really seat 150gr jacketed bullets out far enough that chambering the round leaves marks.

I'm not sure if they're all that way, but it's basically the opposite of the 1871/84 Mauser's throat.

Arclight