Please help me decide. 38-40 or 44-40?

[sghart3578]

Okay neighbors. I have decided to go with a relining of my Puma 92 in 45 Colt. I thought that I wanted a 44-40 but then I started researching the 38-40 and now I am not so sure. I am turning to you guys for help.

Before I go any further I should note a few things

I don't hunt any longer so any use with the future conversion will be at the range for fun time. I don't compete either.

While I am an experienced caster and reloader I have never cast for or reloaded either caliber. Heck, I've never even fired either caliber.

I would be starting from scratch with either one. I would need molds, dies, brass, etc.

That's where I'm at. If you could have just one which one would it be?

As always I thank you in advance for your time and I know I will get some good info.


Steve in N CA

[NorthMoccasin]

I have both, in original Marlin 94's Both are a lot of fun, but require care when loading. The necks are thin so care is required to avoid crumpling them. you will use a little less lead with the 38-40, but there are a wider variety of moulds available for the 44-40. Starline brass is by far the best for both calibers.

[Outpost75]

If you are just using the rifle for range shooting, consider the 10x25mm. John Taylor has the chambering and die reamers and can do your rifle and a matching revolver in the same caliber. Cases are necked down .44 Russian.

248295248296248297

The .44 Russian case has just the right case capacity, when necked down to .40 having a capacity of 20-21 grains of 3Fg, 4.0-4.5 grains of Trail Boss or 14 grs. of IMR4227 using the RCBS Little Dandy Rotor #18. From our custom 5-inch Ruger Blackhawks, we attained 1000 fps with Accurate 40-182H and 950 fps with 40-220H cast bullets with 5 grains of Bullseye.

Source brass to make the 10x25mm is either .44 Special, which is then necked down and cut off to 1 inch, or Starline .44 Russian, which we neck down and use as-is, resulting in a 0.970-0.975” case. The shoulder angle is 6 degrees, 48 minutes Basic, the same as the .38-40 Winchester. Case body diameter is .454" at the shoulder, the same as the .38-40 and .457" at the base, and the same as the .44 Special.

The maximum black powder charge is 24 grains of Goex 3Fg using a drop tube or compression die. With Trail Boss 4.5 grains is a “full charge” load, because Trail Boss should NOT be compressed. Starting loads using 3.5 grains of Bullseye with 40-220H gave 760 fps with a standard deviation of only 7 fps and an extreme spread of 29 fps over a 12-shot string, producing satisfying 2” groups at 25 yds. I had John build a single-shot rifle in this caliber, but a levergun would be cool and hold lots of these little stubby, short rounds.

[Savvy Jack]

If you are just using the rifle for range shooting, consider the 10x25mm. John Taylor has the chambering and die reamers and can do your rifle and a matching revolver in the same caliber. Cases are necked down .44 Russian.

248295248296248297

The .44 Russian case has just the right case capacity, when necked down to .40 having a capacity of 20-21 grains of 3Fg, 4.0-4.5 grains of Trail Boss or 14 grs. of IMR4227 using the RCBS Little Dandy Rotor #18. From our custom 5-inch Ruger Blackhawks, we attained 1000 fps with Accurate 40-182H and 950 fps with 40-220H cast bullets with 5 grains of Bullseye.

Source brass to make the 10x25mm is either .44 Special, which is then necked down and cut off to 1 inch, or Starline .44 Russian, which we neck down and use as-is, resulting in a 0.970-0.975” case. The shoulder angle is 6 degrees, 48 minutes Basic, the same as the .38-40 Winchester. Case body diameter is .454" at the shoulder, the same as the .38-40 and .457" at the base, and the same as the .44 Special.

The maximum black powder charge is 24 grains of Goex 3Fg using a drop tube or compression die. With Trail Boss 4.5 grains is a “full charge” load, because Trail Boss should NOT be compressed. Starting loads using 3.5 grains of Bullseye with 40-220H gave 760 fps with a standard deviation of only 7 fps and an extreme spread of 29 fps over a 12-shot string, producing satisfying 2” groups at 25 yds. I had John build a single-shot rifle in this caliber, but a levergun would be cool and hold lots of these little stubby, short rounds.

:awesome:

[Cast_outlaw]

I’m a personal fan and bias to the 44-40 as I have a revolver and model 92 in it but haven’t heard any negative things about the 38-40. Although there is limited recently published data for 44-40 and probably for 38-40 there is older data and a wealth of information on this forum I would suggest you talk with some of the people who post on it savvy jack, and outpost75 seam to be a couple of the more well versed members who load 44-40 and possibly the 38-40 on here

[dangitgriff]

44-40, hands-down.
“THE” cartridge that really won the West.
R/Griff
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190914/878867972a28157d3606190770b3c0c3.jpg
(From the Boot Hill cemetery in Tombstone, AZ)

[Outpost75]

IF you want a round which you can buy factory ammo for, the .44-40 has advantages. My experience with the .38-40 in vintage revolvers was that chamber dimensions varied widely and caused problems. I had John Taylor do two .44-40 Ruger revolver cylinders for me and a single-shot rifle, and his reamer cuts chambers with a .448" neck diameter which enables loading .430" bullets in Starline brass and cutting a .4305" cylinder throat which is a good match-up with modern .44 Magnum revolver barrels.

My 1915 Spanish El Tigre and Marlin 1894S from the 1993 production run for Jerry's Sport Shop in PA both have similar dimensions and shoot well with cast bullets of 1:30 tin-lead sized .430" in Starline brass with 6 grains of Bullseye which I also shoot in my 1906 date of manufacture Colt Frontier Six Shooter.

Accurate 43-206H is my Keith Homage bullet optimized for the .44-40 and is the best yet which I have shot in that caliber!

248309248310

[Finster101]

44-40

[cwtebay]

I have 1892's and SAA in both. Pick the one that turns your crank. They're both great cartridges to reload, brass and loaded ammo is available for both. You can't go wrong with your choice!!

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[Piedmont]

.38-40. Reason? Well, the loaded rounds look cooler. One of the coolest looking rounds out there. I keep trying to talk myself into one but the short necked chambers (that blow out brass when fired) and too large case capacity for a revolver round (I want one in a revolver) keep holding me back.

[indian joe]

Piedmont said it ------38-40 is almost the coolest looking round (45-75 is the best!!)
I built a 38-40 a couple years ago on a 92 action, 26 inch half round half octagon barrel
shoots a duplex load, 3 grains of 4227 under a case of black, RCBS cowboy mold --- love it!!

248315

[Bent Ramrod]

I have Low Walls and Single Action revolvers in both calibers. The only practical difference I see between the cartridges is that .38-40 components aren’t as common as .44-40, and that the .38-40 shell is more prone to lube dents when full-length resized.

[Eddie Southgate]

38-40

[smkummer]

Load a 200 grain bullet for your 45 colt and call it good. What ever your shooting won’t know the difference between a 43 cal. and a 45 cal. bullet. After you have mastered loading the bottlenecks with dies that require lube and de-lube the cases, you may tire of the additional steps. Just my .02 cents.

[sghart3578]

Load a 200 grain bullet for your 45 colt and call it good. What ever your shooting won’t know the difference between a 43 cal. and a 45 cal. bullet. After you have mastered loading the bottlenecks with dies that require lube and de-lube the cases, you may tire of the additional steps. Just my .02 cents.

Normally I would take that very good advice. But this is not a vanity project. You say whatever i hit won't know the difference. Again, under normal circumstances, I would agree. But I can't hit anything with this rifle.

The chamber on this rifle is so large that I can chamber .480" bullets. The groups at 50 yards measure 12". I have tried different bullet weights, powder charges, diameters, etc. The normal work up procedure. I can load the bullets that I cast for 45-70 and chamber them one at a time and they group better.

So I am stuck with a decision. Do I sell this rifle or fix it? I could sell it but I would have to tell the prospective buyer that there are problems shooting cast bullets. My conscience wouldn't let me keep that a secret. Or I can convert to another caliber.

I really like the rifle so I think that I will convert it, I just have to decide what i want.

Thanks everyone for your input. I'm leaning towards 44-40.


Steve in N CA

[jonp]

If you are just using the rifle for range shooting, consider the 10x25mm. John Taylor has the chambering and die reamers and can do your rifle and a matching revolver in the same caliber. Cases are necked down .44 Russian.

248295248296248297

The .44 Russian case has just the right case capacity, when necked down to .40 having a capacity of 20-21 grains of 3Fg, 4.0-4.5 grains of Trail Boss or 14 grs. of IMR4227 using the RCBS Little Dandy Rotor #18. From our custom 5-inch Ruger Blackhawks, we attained 1000 fps with Accurate 40-182H and 950 fps with 40-220H cast bullets with 5 grains of Bullseye.

Source brass to make the 10x25mm is either .44 Special, which is then necked down and cut off to 1 inch, or Starline .44 Russian, which we neck down and use as-is, resulting in a 0.970-0.975” case. The shoulder angle is 6 degrees, 48 minutes Basic, the same as the .38-40 Winchester. Case body diameter is .454" at the shoulder, the same as the .38-40 and .457" at the base, and the same as the .44 Special.

The maximum black powder charge is 24 grains of Goex 3Fg using a drop tube or compression die. With Trail Boss 4.5 grains is a “full charge” load, because Trail Boss should NOT be compressed. Starting loads using 3.5 grains of Bullseye with 40-220H gave 760 fps with a standard deviation of only 7 fps and an extreme spread of 29 fps over a 12-shot string, producing satisfying 2” groups at 25 yds. I had John build a single-shot rifle in this caliber, but a levergun would be cool and hold lots of these little stubby, short rounds.

Why do people keeping coming up with this stuff? I'm going broke

[sghart3578]

Why do people keeping coming up with this stuff? I'm going broke


I know what you mean, it's killing me.

[rockrat]

I ended up with a '92 in 38-40. Shoots very well.

[jonp]

If you can chamber 480's can you turn it into a 475 Linebaugh or 480 Ruger? Just load light loads in it

[sghart3578]

If you can chamber 480's can you turn it into a 475 Linebaugh or 480 Ruger? Just load light loads in it

That's an option I guess. But the bore measures .451".


Steve in N CA

[Don McDowell]

I have both the 38wcf and 44wcf, in rifle and handgun, the 38 wcf is a bit softer in recoil than the 44 in the rifle. Neither is particularly difficult to reload for, both are accurate cartridges.
So it basically boils down to which one do you want the most?

[Tracy]

If you can chamber 480's can you turn it into a 475 Linebaugh or 480 Ruger? Just load light loads in it

Or make it the world's first 480 Achilles rifle! The chamber is already correct, and you could have it rebored instead of relined.

[bigted]

Hands down ... 38 WCF!!! Easy on lead. Very easy recoil. 150's and 175's boolits. As Don mentioned ... easy to reload.

I also find the 38's to be a very handsome cartridge. My original '73' is so chambered, and I will say that recoil is like shooting a 22 mag.

Reline it to 38 WCF and never look back! .401 diameter is way easier then building the 44 WCF and trying to figure out .427, .428, or .430 ... then figuring out which die to get. 40 cal is 40 cal.

38 WCF all the way !!!

[sghart3578]

Thanks eveyone for your help.

The rifle is on the way to Mr. Taylor for a 44-40 conversion.


Steve in N CA

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Last reline I did was to 44 Special?

https://i.imgur.com/J2smU8B.jpg

[pworley1]

I have both, and for range work I would go with the 38 40.

[CamoWhamo]

Accurate 43-206H is my Keith Homage bullet optimized for the .44-40 and is the best yet which I have shot in that caliber!

248309248310

Outpost75,

I was curious to try your design so ordered a mold, only i had Tom make it as a plain base.

They look good, dropped from the mold at 209gn (210gn with lube).
Cycle though my 1873 and 1892 just fine.

249761

[Outpost75]

Outpost75,

I was curious to try your design so ordered a mold, only i had Tom make it as a plain base.

They look good, dropped from the mold at 209gn (210gn with lube).
Cycle though my 1873 and 1892 just fine.

249761

Thanks for posting the pic!

I'm sure Tom will sell a bunch of those molds because many traditional shooters don't like the bevel base.

Anxiously waiting for field reports from the Land of Oz.

[enfield]

why wouldn't anyone have suggested having both ( at least one of each ) 38-40 and 44-40 . Don't old BP cartridges have great caliber names, If someone asks "what caliber is that " they don't know what your talking about when you answer them.

[Texas by God]

Hyphenated Cartridges are cool. Of the two, I picked the .44-40 with no regrets.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Walks]

I wish you Luck, .44WCF is a favorite of mine.
And Suggest strongly that you start with a set of RCBS Cowboy dies.

[veeman]

I've been with the 44-40 for 30+ years with the same Lyman die set, only ever had to get a .429 expander plug.

[one-eyed fat man]

Why do people keeping coming up with this stuff? I'm going broke

Because they are trying to get the puniest mouse fart load they can with smokeless powder while pretending to shoot real cowboy guns.

[one-eyed fat man]

I have guns in both chamberings. As a practical matter, they are pretty much a wash. Reloading is not particularly onerous, but can be complicated by the changes in dimensions over the years. My originals in .44-40 pretty much want a .428 bullet. The Uberti and Rossi want a .430. One original Bisley .38-40 has a .406 bore, seeming to support the notion that Colt, at some point, may have used the same cutters to make .41 Colt barrels too. As you are having it done, you get the advantage of specifying what you want.

My sentimental favorite is .44-40.

[bob208]

my first Winchester was a 92 in .38-40. I shot that rifle a lot bought of virgin brass back then. still have that rifle and a lot of the brass just picked up a uberti pistol in .38-40. along the way I also got Winchesters in .44-40 and a Dakota pistol to match them.

right now today I would go with .44-40 just because the brass is easier to find.

[skeettx]

44-40
Easier to reload for
But both are fine.

Another option, reline the 45 Colt chamber only and shoot the 452 bullet.

Mike

[35 Whelen]

I have revolvers and levers in both calibers, but the 38-40 is my favorite. It's slightly easier to load in that the smaller bullet diameter in the 44-40 case centers into dies more easily. And like someone said, it uses less lead. Does everything else just like it should

https://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1873%20Winchester/38-40%20bullets-3_zpsgnpwihbt.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/1873%20Winchester/38-40%20bullets-3_zpsgnpwihbt.jpg.html)

https://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1873%20Winchester/1873%20Winchester-%201886%20Production/200%20yds.%20Herco_zpsg5fcpll0.jpg (https://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/1873%20Winchester/1873%20Winchester-%201886%20Production/200%20yds.%20Herco_zpsg5fcpll0.jpg.html)

https://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/Gobbler_zpschqunhns.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Hunting/Gobbler_zpschqunhns.jpg.html)

https://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/3%20point_zpswtji6qwy.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Hunting/3%20point_zpswtji6qwy.jpg.html)

35W