30 WCF Die

[jimkim]

Have any of you used a body die to load 30WCF? I'm trying to get a bit more life out of my cases. I have a 70 model 336, and it likes 0.311" or slightly larger 0.3115" bullets. I anneal my brass and I'm only getting three loadings per case. I believe the problem is from the amount the neck is worked with each loading.

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[Der Gebirgsjager]

Since no one else has answered, I'll take a chance at displaying my ignorance. I'm not sure what you mean by a "body die". Dies all have bodies, the main cylindrical portion of the die. Could you mean a "neck sizing only die"? If so, I use them on several of my rifles where over stressing brass is a problem, notably Lee Enfields, and yes, a couple of lever actions that have springy lock-ups. It's not really necessary to full length resize a cartridge case each time if it is reused in the same rifle.

Since you mention that you believe your brass is failing after three loadings, and you cite the amount the neck is worked as being the possible cause, and the use of .311 bullets when the .30-30 is nominally .308, I follow your logic. But .003 isn't much of a stretch, and you could make it less stressful by using a .311 expander ball in your sizing die. Easy to buy ready made from the company that made your die set, or you can borrow one from one of your other die sets if you happen to have a set for .303 British, 7.65 Argentine, or 7.7 Japanese -- and there are others. Also, lube the inside of the case necks when sizing. Forcing a .311 bullet into a neck sized .308 does the case neck little good.

The possibility also exists that your rifle's chamber neck is somehow oversized and allows the brass to expand more than normal when fired. About the only way to really determine this is to make a chamber cast and measure the resulting cast. It's not uncommon for .30-30 lever actions to shoot their best with cast bullets of .310 or .311 diameter, but less common for jacketed bullets. If we're talking jacketed bullets, then I would have to suspect and oversized or worn chamber.

DG

[rockrat]

I have had some dies that size the ID of a 30-30 case to about .298" and then you have to expand it alot with the factory .306 expander. Other caliber too, that overwork the brass necks. If that is happening to you, get a good, cheap 30-30 size die and cut off the top to where you get rid of the neck size part, so you just have a body die. Then you can use a 7.62 x 54R size die(I think it uses .311" bullets) to size the neck and expand. Should stop that overworking of your neck.

[Bazoo]

DG, a body die is a die that doesn't size the neck, but sets the shoulder back and sizes the body.

Not knowing anything else about the issue, it sounds like it might be a bad batch of brass to me. Unless of course you've tried other brands or lots. Where is the brass failing exactly? An oversized chamber is certainly a possible suspect. I'd expect no less than 10 loadings at full power on the 30-30, provided your chamber isn't oversized.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

That's news to me, Bazoo -- like I said, a good chance to display my ignorance. Never heard of a body die before, just a die body. Kind of makes sense, though -- I just never ran up against that particular problem. Thanks for the lesson. I'm guessing that since this went 4 hours without an answer, I'm not the only one! :grin:

[Bazoo]

I believe Redding offers them, but I have no personal experience.

[Taterhead]

Body dies are commonly used, like mentioned above, to bump the shoulder. Typically a bushing neck sizer is also used to set neck tension.

[cwtebay]

I have used Redding body dies for the same. I don't know how neck life can suffer unless oversize jacketed projectiles are used - I've used them for 10+ reloads now on Winchester brass. I do size to bullet diameter using lanolin in the neck and use Lee factory crimp dies after seating.

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[Char-Gar]

Never had a body die. 3 reloadings is awful few for the 30-30 case. Did the necks split or was there some other case failure?

[pworley1]

I neck size with a file trim die and it works good for me.

[woody1]

Do you NEED to resize the body each time? Just asking. I've been reloading 30-30 for about 60 years which only makes me know what works for me and my rifles. When I started I only had a set of Lyman tongs and 310 dies. Only neck sizing there and of course I was loading to about book max. Still no problem in MY Winchester Model 94 which dates to the 1930's. I was not having to expand the necks to fit .311 boolits but I got many reloads from my brass. (I assume your problem lies with neck splits since you've referenced neck expanding) In fact I still have some of the same brass to this day. Have you measured your fired necks against the size they're sized down to? That might give you a clue as to what's happening as in is your chamber neck large and your sizer small or whatever?

I currently load boolits for at least a half dozen lever action 30-30's. If I keep my brass separate I almost never full length size and usually use the same Lyman 310 neck size die I started with back when and expand for .310 or .311 boolits. If you have a .32 pistol size die, try using that and neck size with that and see if that works for you. It may shrink the neck sufficient for your needs.

You're not using Federal brass are you? I've had many problems with it including splits.

Just food for thought. Good luck and regards, Woody

[cwtebay]

At the time I was reloading for 14 - 30-30 firearms. I had difficulty with neck sizing due to the variety, and asked Redding what I should do. They suggested the body die and I came with the crimp die because the bullets started moving with recoil.

Cheers

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[jimkim]

DG, a body die is a die that doesn't size the neck, but sets the shoulder back and sizes the body.

Not knowing anything else about the issue, it sounds like it might be a bad batch of brass to me. Unless of course you've tried other brands or lots. Where is the brass failing exactly? An oversized chamber is certainly a possible suspect. I'd expect no less than 10 loadings at full power on the 30-30, provided your chamber isn't oversized.

It's happening with Win, Fed, and Rem(four loadings) brass. The necks split.


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[jimkim]

Do you NEED to resize the body each time? Just asking. I've been reloading 30-30 for about 60 years which only makes me know what works for me and my rifles. When I started I only had a set of Lyman tongs and 310 dies. Only neck sizing there and of course I was loading to about book max. Still no problem in MY Winchester Model 94 which dates to the 1930's. I was not having to expand the necks to fit .311 boolits but I got many reloads from my brass. (I assume your problem lies with neck splits since you've referenced neck expanding) In fact I still have some of the same brass to this day. Have you measured your fired necks against the size they're sized down to? That might give you a clue as to what's happening as in is your chamber neck large and your sizer small or whatever?

I currently load boolits for at least a half dozen lever action 30-30's. If I keep my brass separate I almost never full length size and usually use the same Lyman 310 neck size die I started with back when and expand for .310 or .311 boolits. If you have a .32 pistol size die, try using that and neck size with that and see if that works for you. It may shrink the neck sufficient for your needs.

You're not using Federal brass are you? I've had many problems with it including splits.

Just food for thought. Good luck and regards, Woody
I have loaded some with a Lee Loader. It neck sizes only. I only used the loader when I seated the bullets. They fed and chambered fine. I then used a Lee FCD to crimp. I'm hoping I'll get more life with them. It has happened with Fed, Win, and Rem brass. I get four loadings with Rem. I have considered swapping barrels if I could find an inexpensive one.

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[Der Gebirgsjager]

Hey-- it's me again! After having read through the entire thread I think I gave you some pretty good advice on your problem. You can full length resize your cases or not, as you wish. Use a .311 expander ball in the sizing die. Lube the inside of the case necks. Load the .311 bullets. Crimp them with the Lee Factory Crimp die. If you continue to get brass failures I'd really suspect something is wrong with the chamber. Think about it this way: the neck of the case is inside a tube (the neck of the chamber), and if it is oversized your brass has to stretch to fill the tube, and if it's too much it will split. On top of which, you are already exercising the neck somewhat by loading oversized bullets, so the brass is getting a double workout. You have said that you're only getting 3-4 reloadings out of the brass, and I'm assuming that you started with new or once fired brass, not something that had an unknown history and maybe a dozen previous loadings. If the loading method I've outlined won't solve your problem, then you should have your rifle's chamber examined by a gunsmith. A chamber cast will tell if there is a problem.

[Three44s]

Body die or not, you will still need to deal with how much you are possibly over resizing your necks. I think a bushing style neck sizing die might be in order.

My favorite neck die is the Lee Collet sizer but it seems you may have a hard time ordering a mandrel from Lee large enough to solve your problem.

Three44s

[jimkim]

Body die or not, you will still need to deal with how much you are possibly over resizing your necks. I think a bushing style neck sizing die might be in order.

My favorite neck die is the Lee Collet sizer but it seems you may have a hard time ordering a mandrel from Lee large enough to solve your problem.

Three44sI was thinking of lapping one of my sizing dies to get an oversized neck, that gave me good tension. I thought about just using the seating and crimping die and skipping the sizing altogether, since it seemed to work with the whack-a-mole. The loader still sizes a little, but only during seating.

I do think the neck in the chamber may be a little large. I have also considered reaming the chamber with a 308 reamer and stamping the barrel with 30 Winkleberry or some other oddball name so after I'm gone they won't try shooting 308 Win in it.

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[Bazoo]

I have a 30-30 sizing die body if you want to experiment on it. It's Lyman, and it leaves a mark on the shoulder at the vent hole. It still sizes and chambers but I replaced it anyways. No guts in it, just the body. PM me if you want it and I'll send it your way.

[toallmy]

Just a thought , but just looking at a case fired out of your rifle not resized . What diameter boollit would fit snugly in the neck ?
I recently opened up a full length sizing dies neck for a 7.65 mauser so I wouldn't over work the brass , it seams to help . At least in my situation .

[Larry Gibson]

jimkim

What is the diameter if the sized neck?

Then, what is the diameter of the neck after the bullet is seated?

What id the make of the die you are using?

[EDG]

Why not make a chamber cast or measure the neck with a set of .001" increment gauge pins? Then you will know what the neck diameter is.

A RCBS trim die has a neck diameter that is .010" larger than a RCBS FL die.
The RCBS trim die would serve as a body die.
To size the neck you could use a Wilson hand die with a bushing that is exactly the size you want.
Other than that you could use a Lee collet neck sizer die or a lapped out conventional neck sizing die.



I do think the neck in the chamber may be a little large.

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[kywoodwrkr]

You might find this link useful.
https://rickaverill.com/projects-past-and-present/lapping-reloading-dies/
Lot of other 'things' as well.
Thanks.

[jimkim]

I'd like to thank all of you for your help.

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