To shoot or not? 357 w/blue dot

[400cor-bon]

Saw a recall saying not to shoot 125 gr 357 magnum due to o.p. loads
http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18318&stc=1&d=1217100233
I have a box of 100 reloads with 125 gr JHP
The box I have are 12.6 grains of blue dot
max in manual is 14.5 grains, but when I tried that load it was too hot!
Went down two sizes in my lee cavity powder measure
and this load seemed to work well back when I reloaded it
shooting in a dan weeson mdl 15
Now I see the recall warnings. . . .
should I shoot these bullets?

[cajun shooter]

Bullet puller is cheaper than medical and firearms cost

[400cor-bon]

yeah, tried that, but hese are heavily crimped
and end up damaging bullet and case
maybe I should just toss them in a campfire . . . . .

j/k:twisted:

[beagle]

Take a .357 Mag sizing die (steel) and FL the loaded cartridge the length of the seated bullet. This will allow the bullets to be pulled with your fingers or a light tap of the inertia puller.

Of course, I wouldn't guarentee the diameter of the bullets. I've done thousands of rounds of pistol stuff this way. Once got a huge box of "stuff" from the gunshop that had been reloaded. Salvaged all the bullets for lead and the primers and brass. Being retired, you have a lot of time and little money./beagle

[felix]

Looks like they are talking about a possible SEE condition. Not likely, in fact hardly likely, being shot in a revolter. With a warning like that, don't use in any closed breech system. No use in break opens, drop downs, levers, bolts, etc. ... felix

[unclebill]

Take a .357 Mag sizing die (steel) and FL the loaded cartridge the length of the seated bullet. This will allow the bullets to be pulled with your fingers or a light tap of the inertia puller.

Of course, I wouldn't guarentee the diameter of the bullets. I've done thousands of rounds of pistol stuff this way. Once got a huge box of "stuff" from the gunshop that had been reloaded. Salvaged all the bullets for lead and the primers and brass. Being retired, you have a lot of time and little money./beagle

i have never heard of that technique before.
thanks!
bill

[leftiye]

Don't castigate my stupidity too much fellows (please), but I once put three rounds through an L-frame S&W that were 10 GRAINS over max using blue dot while testing for pressure in working up a load in .357! The scale had gotten bumped and was in the next higher groove on the 10 grain beam. They kept perforating primers, so I kept reducing them a whole grain. All three were even fired in the same chamber with no measureable deformation resulting. FWIW, that was 22.5, 21.5, and 20.5 grains (instead of 12.5, 11.5, and 10.5grains) of blue dot - almost a double load!. I really liked the added oomph it seemed to have over the usual .357 loads! This was with the older Blue Dot, but I still wonder just how problematic Blue Dot is in cold weather nowadays.

[doghawg]

I've burned a lot of Blue Dot over the years and it will continue to be my favorite .41 Mag powder and one of my favorite .357 powders (although I don't load 125's). There have been some real scary BD loads published in various places and I think that is the primary reason for this warning. I've never thought of BD as a good max load choice....more of an upper mid-range.

Lyman's third edition shows 13.3 gr. as giving 36,700 C.U.P. If it was me 400 cor-bon....I'd shoot 'em rather than pull 'em. JMO

[smkummer]

with blue dot and a 125 grain bullet load. Can't remember the grains but it was over max in some manuals and only under max in 2 books. I fired probably 2 boxes (100) rounds and noticed the damage when I got home. Maybe if I let the barrel cool it might not have happened or only fired a few cylinders at a time. It was a powerful load but the Colt Lawman MK3 is a very strong gun too. I was able to change the barrel myself but still mad that I wrecked a good barrel. The forcing cone was cracked in 2 places.

[400cor-bon]

I am not really worried about cracked forcing cone-
I have a dan wesson model 15 and a spare barrel put back
they swap out in < 5 minutes[smilie=1:
Plus it is the old blue dot, not the new
I think the load will be safe to shoot
but no more 125 blue dot loads!
I have AA 5 and 7 on the shelf for the next batch

[2 dogs]

Blue dot is one of my favorite powders. I dont see any problem with it.....and I use it quite a bit.

[NHlever]

Since you went to the max load, and found it too hot, I think you already found the issue they are concerned about. I think that the data for that load got entered in the manual wrong, and you should be fine with your milder loads. Think about it for a minute, and you will see how unlikely it is that the powder itself not be safe with only one bullet in the .357, and in the .41 Mag loads. Perfectly safe with 135 grain .357 bullets, and all .44 mag stuff though........

[454PB]

Only you can call this one.

I've been using Bluedot for many years in my handguns and I buy it in 5 pound caddies. I've yet to see any of the temperature problems it's supposed to have. I don't use it with boolits as light as 125 grains, but your load sounds reasonable to me. My favorite recipe for .357 is a 160 gr. boolit and 10 grs. of Bluedot. If I were in your shoes, I'd shoot them.

[NHlever]

454PB, I found your load to be very good with the shorter barreled .357's too, except that I was using 158 gr. bullets, and the 358156 cast. Much less muzzle blast, and flash with good velocity.

[leadeye]

When would the change have been between old and new Blue Dot? It has been a good powder for me but my stock is from the 80s.:-?

[Larry Gibson]

There's been no change from "old" to "new". It is the same BlueDot. I also use it and I load it under 125 gr SP/HPs in .357 Magnum. I use and older manual load that pushes the 125s out of my 6' Ruger Security Six at 1600+ fps, just like they're supposed to. Please don't post and tell me about over pressure because I've measured the pressure of this load. It is top end for sure but still within the SAAMI MAP. I also will continue to use Bluedot in several other cartridges including the .41 magnum. BlueDot is not a good powder for reduced loads. In conversations with Alliant regarding this issue they said "pressure spikes were reported to them" so they issued the warning. I believe these are related to reduced loads and the precaution is for the prevention of SEE as felix mentioned.

Larry Gibson

[Limey]

Felix,

Please can you educate me as to what is a SEE condition, many thanks.

Safe shooting

Limey

[felix]

In gun terms, a SEE condition is where/when the primer pushes the projectile out of the pressure range for the continuous burn of the powder as intended for the powder's formulation. The worst SEE condition is when every graunle of the powder catches on fire at once and all at the same instant, and by any means of ignition, be it wave interaction (shock), vibration/friction, or heat/flame. This seldom happens and is therefore hard to produce on demand. The scientific term for this condition is called detonation. Primers are meant to detonate, but not powder. Spotaneous combustion of dust, oily rags, etc. is nothing but detonation in its purest form. The grand-daddy of the SEEs. ... felix

[Limey]

Felix,

Thank you for explaining that SEE = Detonation and not progressive combustion.

....But what does SEE actually stand for?.....

Safe shoting,

Limey

[felix]

Secondary explosion effect = SEE. We have expanded this terminology from its original meaning of multiple explosions to any rapid burn NOT intended (expected), and is not due to a mechanical error like over charging by accident or by the powder bridging in a dump type of measuring device. However, for a powder dump device to make a heavy charge, at least one charge was light, and, if fact, too light in some cases. That too light of a charge in a large case CAN cause a SEE condition, accidentally, or intentionally by loading the wrong charge of a wrong powder speed. ... felix

[Limey]

Felix,

Many thanks for detailing what SEE means.....

Safe shooting,

Limey

[unclebill]

Take a .357 Mag sizing die (steel) and FL the loaded cartridge the length of the seated bullet. This will allow the bullets to be pulled with your fingers or a light tap of the inertia puller.

Of course, I wouldn't guarentee the diameter of the bullets. I've done thousands of rounds of pistol stuff this way. Once got a huge box of "stuff" from the gunshop that had been reloaded. Salvaged all the bullets for lead and the primers and brass. Being retired, you have a lot of time and little money./beagle

i just tried that and all it did was make the boolit REALLY REALLY tight in the case.
i can see the lube channels of the boolit through the case!
you lost me on how this would work.:?:

[unclebill]

.......

[400cor-bon]

went down to the bottom of the hill - my range
and burned up 100 of these. no cratered primers or split cases
my dan wesson came through fine!
a little loud, woke up the neighbors!
antique mdl 15 from ther late 60s:Fire:
4 digit serial number:

http://www.x-h2o.com/photoplog/images/1294/1_Dan_wesson.jpg

[TCLouis]

I had never been around any Dan Wesson except my 14-5 and after seeing this picture realize that all they did was whack some metal out of that rear sight ramp and stick on an adjustable sight.

I have been on a quest for a 6" barrel for mine and can only find the barrel with the new style shroud.

The ergonomics of this gun feel strange at first, but to my taste actually begin to feel better/more comfortable than my S&Ws and Rugers with just a few minutes handling. Just need a new set of grips to reduce the distance from the backstrap to the trigger and I would be good to go.

[400cor-bon]

I had never been around any Dan Wesson except my 14-5 and after seeing this picture realize that all they did was whack some metal out of that rear sight ramp and stick on an adjustable sight.

I have been on a quest for a 6" barrel for mine and can only find the barrel with the new style shroud.

The ergonomics of this gun feel strange at first, but to my taste actually begin to feel better/more comfortable than my S&Ws and Rugers with just a few minutes handling. Just need a new set of grips to reduce the distance from the backstrap to the trigger and I would be good to go.

good luck on that one. I searched for while and gave up.
I took mine back to the factory in 1987 on a lunch break
while working in E longmeadow MA. walk in, no appt.
they replaced the old lockwork with new and fitted a new hand
gave me the old parts, plus a brand new extra barrel
took the smith 20 minutes to rebuild the gun, fired a dozen rounds and had it back to me in the waiting room.
he looked up the gun and told me who it was originally sold to and when.
all for no charge.
the factory said they had a few 6 inch shrouds
but they were reserved for lifetime-warranty work only

[EDK]

Secondary explosion effect = SEE. We have expanded this terminology from its original meaning of multiple explosions to any rapid burn NOT intended (expected), and is not due to a mechanical error like over charging by accident or by the powder bridging in a dump type of measuring device. However, for a powder dump device to make a heavy charge, at least one charge was light, and, if fact, too light in some cases. That too light of a charge in a large case CAN cause a SEE condition, accidentally, or intentionally by loading the wrong charge of a wrong powder speed. ... felix

They had a dust explosion in a coffee plant (Granite City IL) back in the late 50s/early 60s. The damage was unbelievable and you could smell the coffee for a long distance...and there were operating steel mills within a mile or less.

Someone did a book on military operations in industrial areas years ago. You set off a charge to stir up the dust and a second to ignite....KA-BOOM; one less factory for the war effort!

I work in a power plant. They have some stringently enforced rules about smoking in areas where coal dust is a problem. Periodically, we get safety warnings/meetings and they show the results of not following those procedures. It is impressive.

:cbpour::redneck::Fire:

[felix]

Perhaps the most impressive one occurred sometime during the first quarter of 1900s. The potassium/sodium nitrate explosion in the Texas City/Baytown/Freeport area could be seen/heard in Houston, 60 miles away from the coast line. ... felix

[Scrounger]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_City_Disaster

[400cor-bon]

deprimed, cleaned and resized cases
all looked fine, no damaged cases or loose pocjets

BTW deonation would not be a concern in this load,
probably just over pressure on the max load listed in the manual.
with 12.5 grains in a 357 case, no room to go to into suspension
WSPM primer will ignite all the powder immediately

now, if I heard 3 grains bullseye in a 357 case destroyed a pistol
I would suspect detonation

I used to work in a hardboard mill
all that wood dust was dangerous
the baghouses had explosion vents on them[smilie=1:

[454PB]

There's a great article by Ken VanDenburg in the latest Handloader magazine about the events that lead up to this product warning.

The original letter from ATK concerning this warning is accurate, pressure problems were found while retesting older published loads. Part of it due to changes in the way Bluedot is now manufactured, part due to other component changes, and part due to better piezo pressure testing. Older Hercules Bluedot IS NOT included in this warning.

Ken also lists some suggested loading data for .41 magnum, .45 Colt, .44 magnum, .40 S&W, and .357 magnum.