4227 or 3031 for .308win and .223 cast loads?

[emt1581]

When it comes to loading .308win (16" and 18" barrels) and .223 (16" barrel)... someone suggested using either 4227 or 3031. Was that decent advice? Which is going to perform better for the round itself and for a Lee auto-drum?

Thanks!

[quilbilly]

I use 3031 in both but only for higher velocity CB loads (over 2000 fps). For lower velocity loads I have used 4227 but have had slightly better results with other fast burning powders such as Unique, Red Dot, or 2400. Every barrel has a personality and likes different powders so you should try the 4227 in both for an mv of about 1600 and see what happens. In the case of my 308 16" bolt rifle, it either likes heavy for caliber CB's launched at 1200 fps by Red Dot or 2100 fps by 3031 but not much in between.
In case no-one else has, welcome to this website.

[WRideout]

For years I thought that the only two powder companies in world were Dupont and Hercules, and the only powders made were Red Dot and IMR3031. In my experience, 3031 shines in medium sized case like the 308 Win. I used it in a 300 Sav which is very similar. Since I have recently acquired a stockpile of powder to experiment with, I found that 3031 was not so good for cast boolits in my 30-06 bolt gun, but H4895 was the ticket.

4227 is considered a magnum pistol powder, and somewhat fast burning. It might do well in your .223, depending on all the variables involved; barrel twist, gas operated vs. bolt, etc.

Wayne

[emt1581]

Seems like 3031 might be the way to go.

I actually have a bunch of Unique but I was told and came to believe it wasn't a good choice for .223 or .308.

Thanks!

[leadhead 500]

From my experience with many different 223’s is with cast bullet weights from 50-60 grains 4227 is a outstanding powder. I have seen many many 3 shot groups around 1” at 100 yards out of a couple different rifles

[cpy911]

Franken AR-15 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HM4d8iIjXblLaBR5ARh4SbkYjhx8mhPM/view?usp=sharing) with cheap AR Stoner 16" 1:9 barrel, PSA BCG and other PSA parts.
20.2 gr of IMR 3031 @ 2300 FPS
RCBS 22-055-SP WW boolits with gas check with (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1I1DHHSpCBord1MgUUab8LMsf8kKraHwm/view?usp=sharing)
Yields me about 2" to 2.5" MOA with cheap red dot. I use it for cheap fun plinking.
Have not experimented with tightening the group up, but could be possible for 1"-2" MOA with a scope and not a 3 MOA red dot! Nevertheless, happy to plink with it.

[emt1581]

Wanted to come back to this...

Thanks for the replies. Still on the fence as to which I'll go with. But I noticed that no one addressed the issue of the Lee Auto Drum functioning. Any thoughts/experience??

Thanks!

[RickinTN]

I don't have the Lee Auto drum so I can't really comment on that. I have used both powders mentioned and my bet would be the 4227 would meter better than 3031. The 4227 is finer/shorter grained. I have used 4227 in 223 bolt rifles with jacketed bullets for reduced loads (+/- 2,600 fps) with excellent results.
Why not give both a try as both will probably perform well for you.
Good Luck,
Rick

[emt1581]

Thanks for the reply Rick. I do know that the rod/cylinder-type powders can get bound up in the auto drum where the disk and granular powders seems to do well. Not sure which the 4227 is.

In regard to trying it...I have to place an order with my dealer and I like to buy in bulk because it's so much cheaper than the little 1lb jugs. So I can't really sample the loads and that's where I'm relying on the expertise of those with experience to help me decide what to go with.

Thanks again!

[Kraschenbirn]

Never had any real success with 3031 in anything but .30-30 and .35 Rem. Don't shoot .223 but both my .308s prefer 4895 (either IMR or H) for CBs; the heavy-barrel Savage M10 consistently printing MOA (or better) @ 200 yds. using an Arsenal 309-188PC. Also found that AA2015 will produce essentially same accuracy at slightly lower MV and works equally well in straight-wall cases at BP levels.

Bill

[emt1581]

Never had any real success with 3031 in anything but .30-30 and .35 Rem. Don't shoot .223 but both my .308s prefer 4895 (either IMR or H) for CBs; the heavy-barrel Savage M10 consistently printing MOA (or better) @ 200 yds. using an Arsenal 309-188PC. Also found that AA2015 will produce essentially same accuracy at slightly lower MV and works equally well in straight-wall cases at BP levels.

Bill

4895....I think I might have a jug of that at home and it'd be easy enough to roll a few and see how they do in .308 and .223. Now the bullets are going to be pc & gc cast.....is that what yours were?

Thanks

[Kraschenbirn]

4895....I think I might have a jug of that at home and it'd be easy enough to roll a few and see how they do in .308 and .223. Now the bullets are going to be pc & gc cast.....is that what yours were?

Thanks

The boolit I'm currently using is a gas-checked bore-rider designed for PC...no lube grooves and slightly (.001-.0015 undersize to allow for thickness of coating. Another good possibility is the RCBS 30-165SIL. This boolit shot very well over a moderate charge of H4895 in my old M700 but must be seated deeper than I prefer for the M10 due to it's tight chamber and short throat.

As a side note, while I don't shoot .223/5.56, I've burned a lot of H4895 in 6mm TCUs - .223 case necked up to .243 - using jacketed bullets, mostly 75 gr. HPBTs

Bill

[emt1581]

The boolit I'm currently using is a gas-checked bore-rider designed for PC...no lube grooves and slightly (.001-.0015 undersize to allow for thickness of coating. Another good possibility is the RCBS 30-165SIL. This boolit shot very well over a moderate charge of H4895 in my old M700 but must be seated deeper than I prefer for the M10 due to it's tight chamber and short throat.

As a side note, while I don't shoot .223/5.56, I've burned a lot of H4895 in 6mm TCUs - .223 case necked up to .243 - using jacketed bullets, mostly 75 gr. HPBTs

Bill

Thanks for the info. I already have the molds for both bullets. But I'm going to have to look into this 4895. I forgot to check to see if I have any. For some reason I'm thinking I used it for my .460 S&W Mag. But that was close to 10 years ago. But I'll see what the general consensus is on this 4895.

Thanks

[303Guy]

Thanks for the info. I already have the molds for both bullets. But I'm going to have to look into this 4895. I forgot to check to see if I have any. For some reason I'm thinking I used it for my .460 S&W Mag. But that was close to 10 years ago. But I'll see what the general consensus is on this 4895.

Thanks
Hodgdon recommend H4895 for reduced loads because it burns consistently at low pressure. I have some to try but haven't had a chance to try it.

I have used H4227 and achieved near MOA ten shot groups with open sights with one particular very worn bore rifle using paper patch and filler. The filler pushed the pressure up while keeping the velocity moderate so that may not be a general indication.