S&W 940 vs. Illinois LE Handgun Qualification

[Hrfunk]

Here’s one to enjoy on Labor Day!

Howard


https://youtu.be/rHoxTudRzrM

[rintinglen]

As a big J frame fan, I loved this one. I have a 640, a pair of 2 inch model 60's, a model 38, a model 342, and a 5 " 60-18.
And Howard, that was some great shooting.
I also loved the Bianchi 9R. I wore one out back in the 80's with my old back-up, M-37, I could draw and fire in less than a second from that rig as a shoulder holster. I have one for my Colt Agent , but I am now too, uhh, manly? I have a hard time reaching the butt these days. My arm seems to have gotten shorter.:roll:

[35remington]

Entertaining and informative as always.

Also a testimonial as to why I do not believe a revolver using clips is a proper fighting tool. I have always said group linking cartridges together and adding a loose bendable piece of metal or plastic to the headspacing equation does nothing good for revolver reliability.

[tazman]

I am the viewer who sent you the Illinois course. Glad to be of service.
I also see you used another of my suggestion in this course, by using an easily concealed snub nose revolver. Detectives who carry concealed need to qualify as well.
This course was easy compared to some of the others. Still you performed very well.
Nicely done.

[Petrol & Powder]

Kudos, I'm a huge fan of the snubnose revolver as a self-defense tool. I really enjoyed that video.

35remington beat me to the comments on moon clips in revolvers used for combat, but I'll second what he said. A moon clip allows for a very fast reload but a bent clip will tie up the gun and that is unacceptable in a combat role. The moon clip in the gun isn't the problem, it's the spare carried for a reload that is susceptible to damage. Moon clips are good for competition. For the street, the chance of a bent clip poses too much of a risk for me.
HR, your recovery from the empty chamber was exactly how to handle that issue, on a DA (or DAO) revolver you just keep pulling the trigger until it goes bang ! Well Done!

The S&W 940 is an excellent collection of the traits that make a snubnose revolver such a great fighting tool: No exposed hammer spur, DAO, stainless steel construction, very "snag-proof" external contours, rock solid reliability and capable of good accuracy.

Thank You for that video. Well done, good to see a snubnose and good shooting.

[onelight]

This was a perfect course too use the 5 shot j frame on , still an excellent choice for small hide out gun .
Oh and tell your daughter she got two thumbs up for her beautiful job on the piano.:awesome:

[Hrfunk]

I am the viewer who sent you the Illinois course. Glad to be of service.
I also see you used another of my suggestion in this course, by using an easily concealed snub nose revolver. Detectives who carry concealed need to qualify as well.
This course was easy compared to some of the others. Still you performed very well.
Nicely done.

Thank you! I really appreciate your help!

Howard

[Hrfunk]

Kudos, I'm a huge fan of the snubnose revolver as a self-defense tool. I really enjoyed that video.

35remington beat me to the comments on moon clips in revolvers used for combat, but I'll second what he said. A moon clip allows for a very fast reload but a bent clip will tie up the gun and that is unacceptable in a combat role. The moon clip in the gun isn't the problem, it's the spare carried for a reload that is susceptible to damage. Moon clips are good for competition. For the street, the chance of a bent clip poses too much of a risk for me.
HR, your recovery from the empty chamber was exactly how to handle that issue, on a DA (or DAO) revolver you just keep pulling the trigger until it goes bang ! Well Done!

The S&W 940 is an excellent collection of the traits that make a snubnose revolver such a great fighting tool: No exposed hammer spur, DAO, stainless steel construction, very "snag-proof" external contours, rock solid reliability and capable of good accuracy.

Thank You for that video. Well done, good to see a snubnose and good shooting.

You're welcome! One thing I always do is check the clips I'm going to be carrying before I use them. Obviously, I didn't do that with the ones I was using for the video, but I've never had that problem with clips I actually use for defensive carry.

Howard

[Hrfunk]

This was a perfect course too use the 5 shot j frame on , still an excellent choice for small hide out gun .
Oh and tell your daughter she got two thumbs up for her beautiful job on the piano.:awesome:


Will do. thank you!

Howard

[35remington]

One of the other problems with clips is the (hopefully unbent) one already in the gun is not safe from causing misfires.

Should the cartridges shift rearward in the cylinder, like when the user is taking an upward angling shot after being knocked to the ground or some such, the firing pin not only has to move the cartridge to be fired forward, but the adjacent cartridges in the adjacent cylinders. Such leads to a light firing pin strike and, once again, an elevated chance of a misfire.

Said by a guy who has experienced precisely that by modeling it. Ain’t no way no how it is gonna get a chance to replicate itself on my watch when it may matter. No clips for me.

As for carrying clips, I used to carry them in pockets when shooting afield, but bent so many in so doing it soured me on them as any type of reload. In the gun or as a reload a clip makes a reliable revolver less so as compared with the rimmed cartridges they really should be using.

[Hrfunk]

For whatever it might be worth, I don't recall ever having a misfire in any of my revolvers that use a clip.

Howard

[LUCKYDAWG13]

Thank you great video will have to try it with my 637

[Petrol & Powder]

It has been some time since I had a S&W 940 in my hands but I do recall the chambers are cut with the requisite "lip" in the chamber so that the cartridge will headspace on the case mouth just as it does in a semi-auto pistol chambered for 9mm. It is possible to fire the S&W 940 without moonclips but extracting the empty, rimless casings without a moonclip is problematic, to say the least.

Unless the revolver in question had excessive end play or headspace (normally the distance between the rear of the cylinder and the recoil shield when using rimmed casings), it's unlikely the firing pin would be forced to push the cartridge forward, along with the adjacent rounds in the moonclip when firing.
However, 35remmington's scenario of the firing pin being robbed of energy by being required to push the cartridge, and its neighbors, forward is not unheard of. It's less likely to occur in moonclip type revolvers that have the correct chamber profile so that the casing headspaces on the case mouth and not just the moonclip.

The real problem with moonclips is the spare ammunition carried for a potential reload. The potential of bending a moonclip while it's out of the gun is real and as evidenced in the video, does occasionally happen.
I've heard people say that they carry their spare full moonclip in a pill bottle or some other container to protect it from damage but that practice negates the advantage of a speedy reload using a moonclip.

Enough of that:
I REALLY like the S&W Centennial series revolvers ! They are excellent fighting tools. The all stainless 640 (38 Special) and 940 (9mm) are very stout little DAO revolvers. The 9mm loading does provide some extra energy over the 38 Special loading but that advantage was somewhat eclipsed by the later .357 mag versions of the 640.

The early 640 and the 940 models were built with the 1 7/8" barrel while the later 640 models had the 2 1/8" barrel (this coincided with the introduction of 357 mag models of the 640).

The 940 was in production from 1991 to 1998 and it just didn't sell as well as hoped. One must look at the 940 in the context of the time when it was introduced. In 1991 there were very few sub-compact, locked breach pistols chambered in 9mm. (the Kahr didn't come out until a few years later). There was a market for people that carried a primary pistol chambered in 9mm and wanted a back-up chambered in the same round. In addition to being able to use a round common with your primary gun, there was also the economic advantage for some officers that had access to free 9mm ammunition.

Ultimately the 940 was overshadowed by the availability of very small, lightweight pistols chambered in 9mm. Revolver fans that didn't need/want the 9mm loading stuck with the conventional rimmed 38 Special Centennials and other snubnose revolvers. The excellent 940 was just a little too much of a niche revolver.

As a back-up gun that would probably never be reloaded in an emergency, the 940 shines. As a primary gun, the moonclip becomes the Achilles heel of the 940.

Interestingly, there were some Ruger Speed-Six models chambered in 9mm and the SP101 in 9mm was discontinued and then re-introduced a few years ago. The Rugers are not in the same class as the S&W J-frame Centennials but they are interesting models.

HR, Thank You for the video and the discussion. And thank you for sharing that cool S&W 940.

[Hrfunk]

You are most welcome! As proof of what you said about the 940, I originally purchased mine in the early 90's as a back-up gun to my primary 9mm semi-auto. It rode in an ankle holster, and I always felt good about having it there.

Howard

[Petrol & Powder]

You are most welcome! As proof of what you said about the 940, I originally purchased mine in the early 90's as a back-up gun to my primary 9mm semi-auto. It rode in an ankle holster, and I always felt good about having it there.

Howard

And I'm a little envious that you have one and I do not.

I did own an early 640 and wished I had held onto it. I elected to replace it with a lightweight 442 but for a time I owned both the 640 & 442. Those Centennials are great guns.

[Outpost75]

My 940 is chambered differently ala the Ruger India Models and will shoot 9mm with clips and .38 S&W without.

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[Petrol & Powder]

That's neat!

Takes advantage of the rim on the 38 S&W cartridge. I guess if you count the thickness of the rim, those cartridges are pretty close in casing length. Pretty slick.

[35remington]

Actually, P and P, the misfires I spoke of occurred with revolvers having chamber shoulders. It is the slack itself and the accumulated drag placed on the firing pin blow when it must move more than one round that is the problem, and the slack exists either way when the cartridges are rearward.

Heavier rounds and steeper angles and dirty chambers all compound the problem possibly in combination in some instances.



Carrying a moon clipped revolver is problematic enough IMO. Carrying one with dirty chambers and clips is doubly asking for problems.

Said by a guy who’s had gunked up chamber and firing residue buildup cause problems sooner than when the identical revolvers used their rimmed substitutes. Yes, I tend to shoot clipped ammo....a lot.

DA operation with the slightly lesser acceleration of the hammer as opposed to SA operation also increases the problem, and only DA operation is relevant when a revolver is really needed.

[onelight]

Outpost75
Did your gun come chambered like that for 9 and 38S&W or did you modify it ?

[Outpost75]

Outpost75
Did your gun come chambered like that for 9 and 38S&W or did you modify it ?

I modified because I had the appropriate reamer from Dave Manson and had personal knowledge of how the Ruger leftovers from the 9mm French order were refurbed to fill the India order and I have one of the Ruger revolvers from that period, which I purchased as an employee at the time.

VERY simple mod which can be done by hand if you have the correct reamer. PM me with your email address and I can send .pdf of reamer print. Or send your cylinder to John Taylor, as he has the reamer I had done to mod my S&W 940 and to also do a .380-200 rook rifle for me.

[onelight]

Outpost75
Thank you for the kind offer , I would have to find me a 940 first .
That is a great mod. You brought back the 9mm rimed with cases you can actually buy .:2_high5:
Do you reload with the appropriate dies for each cartridge ?

[tazman]

Now you guys have me wondering if something similar will work for my 929. The cylinder on this revolver doesn't have a ledge for the cartridge mouth to headspace. Just a long tapered throat.
I might be able to use a shortened 38 special case in there. I will have to check and see how far a 38 case will go into the chambers.

[Outpost75]

Outpost75
Thank you for the kind offer , I would have to find me a 940 first .
That is a great mod. You brought back the 9mm rimed with cases you can actually buy .:2_high5:
Do you reload with the appropriate dies for each cartridge ?

I use RCBS 9mm dies for both.

[Piedmont]

Outpost 75, The reamer I take it allows a .360 ish bullet loaded in the case to chamber? I have a Security Six that I put a Speed Six 9mm cylinder on. The cylinder throats were extremely tight. They were .351" if memory serves and I started a thread on here years back and two more owners of Ruger 9mm revolvers, all DA revolvers, verified that theirs were similarly tight throated. This leads me believe Ruger had experienced a problem with bullet creep and this was their solution.

Do you have any inside information on this? I subsequently had mine honed to .357 for cast bullet use since the accuracy to that point had been poor. What I am wondering is if I can just reload .38 S&W cases with 9mm Luger dies and .357" bullets and have it all work out or whether it will take something else like trimming the .38 S&W brass.

[Outpost75]

Outpost 75, The reamer I take it allows a .360 ish bullet loaded in the case to chamber? I have a Security Six that I put a Speed Six 9mm cylinder on. The cylinder throats were extremely tight. They were .351" if memory serves and I started a thread on here years back and two more owners of Ruger 9mm revolvers, all DA revolvers, verified that theirs were similarly tight throated. This leads me believe Ruger had experienced a problem with bullet creep and this was their solution.

Do you have any inside information on this? I subsequently had mine honed to .357 for cast bullet use since the accuracy to that point had been poor. What I am wondering is if I can just reload .38 S&W cases with 9mm Luger dies and .357" bullets and have it all work out or whether it will take something else like trimming the .38 S&W brass.

Yes, I was QA Manager for Ruger's Newport, NH operations during the French 9mm revolver order and also the India and Royal Hong Kong Police revolvers in .380 Rimmed. The 9mm revolvers were designed to shoot factory jacketed ammo, PERIOD! Not lead bullets. The cylinder throats run tight .3510+0.003/-0.000". Barrels were .343 bore/.353 groove +0.003/-0.000". 9mm revolver barrels made for US commercial sales would be of normal .38/.357 rifling specs .355-.358 groove.

Inertial dislodgement of bullets in factory 9mm ammo was never a problem, but accuracy is much improved with jacketed ammunition when the cylinder throats are about 0.0005 to 0.001" SMALLER than the bullet, to force positive alignment when the short bearing length 9mm bullet transitions the revolver cylinder throat. It also maintains velocity by reducing gas loss when the base of a short bullet exits the case mouth before the bullet has left the cylinder.

The square stop surface which the 9mm case mouth headspaces on causes problems with cast bullets because the bullet base upsets as it leaves the case, scraping off lead, depositing it in the chambers, affecting headspace.

The first 10,000 India revolvers were done by rechambering leftover French 9mm cylinders to .38 S&W. Because the 9mm cylinders had a clip clearance machined on their outer circumference, you can still shoot clipped 9mm ammo in the rechambered cylinder, and the .38 S&W rims headspace on the extractor. The .380 British (.38 S&W) chamber is 0.775" long vs. .754 for the 9mm. Instead of having a square mouth shoulder like the 9mm, it has a normal conical transition to a .362" diameter ball seat to permit the larger diameter bullets to chamber freely, then a 6 degree rifle-type forcing cone to transition to the tight cylinder throat, which is left unmodified. Firing .380 Mk2z 178-grain FMJ cartridges in the rechambered 9mm cylinder produces about 100 fps higher velocity in my S&W 940 than you measure firing the same ammo in my S&W Model 32-1 of the same barrel length. When pressure tested at Ruger, this boosted chamber pressure from 13,700 psi to about 19,000 psi, like a .38 Special +P. Well within safe design limits for the S&W 940, as the 9mm is lots hotter than that.

If you PM me with an email address which can accept the .pdf file, I can send you the chamber print, if interested.

[Piedmont]

Thank you Outpost, I'm not really interested in rechambering, just curious if I would have to trim cases if I went to .38 S&W brass. I'll probably just use 9mm cases since I hate to trim brass!