Like handwork?

[madcaster]

This is a cut & paste of a message I posted on the Muzzleloader Magazine forums,let's get responses here as well please.
My mind is working overtime lately!

I had a discussion with a guy in Alabama this evening,never thought quite so much of the matter before today,just knew I appreciated workmanship.
Consider this-in a factory and on a production line a person just sees a product for a couple of minutes mOSYT of the time before it is passed onto the next operation.
NEVER any time to see the fruits of their individual labor.
The item is sold and the business owner makes the transaction,thus our employee is not the one who is handed the money.
I think all of these things are contributing to our appreciation for things handmade,such as our BELOVED flintlocks!
Don't you?

[13Echo]

I think many modern firearms, but especially the in line muzzle loader, lacks a soul, so to speak. They are stamped out of sheet metal, die cast, formed from plastic and assembled on automated lines. They are all the same no matter who makes them or what kind of camo pattern is printed on the plastic stock and almost no one has even had to touch them. They leave me totally cold no matter how fast they can launch a bullet. They are just too much like a disposable cigarette lighter.

I've come to the point where I can't stand stainless, plastic, 209 primers, fake powders, or saboted bullets. When I buy a rifle I want it to be one I'll be proud to leave to my son who will leave it to his son. I just don't see that happening with the inlines.

My opinion. Yours may be different. Doesn't make either of us right or wrong.

Jerry Liles

[jackley]

Nothing better then the feeling of fine curly maple that's you've used for the last 20 years,as smooth as silk, or for that matter, the feel from an original so warm and comfortable When admiring it you think of the stories it could tell. You look at the scratch you put on yours and cussed under your breath on your last deer hunt. But you will always remember that hunt when you look at that old flintlock with that new scratch. But no matter how much you use it plastic feels like plastic. There is no romance with plastic, stainless and 209's they just bang that's it.

Just my take on it.

Jerry

[waksupi]

When I go to gun shows, the modern production guns hold no interest for me. I am charmed by old single shots and lever actions from 100+ years ago, as they were put together by craftsmen. The same holds true for a good custom rifle, be they muzzleloaders, or modern arms. I am also enamored of nice old military rifles.
I find when I go to gun shows looking for a rifle, I am actually looking for a donor action, to make INTO a rifle. And most that I find, tend to be older production.

[northmn]

As one who has spent a few years researching and building reproduction muzzle loaders I have always had my patience tried with the newer "modern" muzzleloaders. They have carried the "modern" theme so far as to makes them pale in comparison to the better modern rifles. Many have a misunderstanding of originals and think that all were made by hand by one person. Jacob Dickert sold locks to other gunsmiths. The English Manton's were said to have been manufactured or touched by up to 28 different people. They were all mostly skilled artisens however. The English military weapons were assembled in a somewhat production manner, however, parts were not interchangeable and each weapon was hand fitted. The famed Hawkens had employees to help production. All this being said, the better muzzleloaders were often made to order. Wood has its own character and no two pieces are really alike in the finer cuts. Were one to buy one of the better kits from Chambers or Track of the Wolf, the finished product would have a personal touch all its own. Also as a studetn of origianls I am both amused and frustrated at how marketers have succeeded in convincing their targets that "modern" is so much better. They brag that shots can be made at 200 yards. The Irish rifle team in the 1870's only lost to the Americans by one shot in a 1000 yard competition. The Irish were shooting muzzleloaders. A modern muzzleloader using modern components would have lost by much more.

Northmn

[FL-Flinter]

Won't see this coming off an assembly line...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/markkw/Pistol/pistol1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/markkw/Pistol/rightgripwalnut.2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/markkw/Pistol/forecarving.walnut.jpg

[madcaster]

Great carving in the stock FL-Flinter!

[FL-Flinter]

Thanks for the compliment. I do all my carving by hand with chisels, knives & scrapers - forge work too.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/markkw/Accounterments/P1030146.jpg

[missionary5155]

Nice hawks ! Nice pistol !

[Sven]

Were one to buy one of the better kits from Chambers or Track of the Wolf, the finished product would have a personal touch all its own.
Northmn

I am seriously concidering buying one of their kits -- a full stock Hawkin flinter! Been drooling for about 6 months, now. I should really make a road trip down to Elk River some day and give them a visit.

I'd ask my wife for one for Christmas, but I bet I'd only be able to "look" at it until after I build her a master bedroom suit in the basement. Might be worth it, though!

[northmn]

When I build a gun I usually pick away at it a little at a time. May inlet a thimble one night another later and so forth. They make good winter projects. Another good project is a "Tennessee" rifle. Although if a Hawken is the itch you should scratch it. A few suggestions since we hunt in the same region. Longrifles look nice but are a b---h to handle in tree stands and closed stands. A shorter barrel like about 32-34 inches is much nicer to carry and handle. I have been carrying a 42 inch tennessee and have decided to make a short English styled gun with about a 30 inch barrel in 58. Since a Hawken uses double throw triggers work on the single trigger pull. If a deer is close you can silence the CLICK of the lock by depressing the sear with the trigger until it reaches full cock. A few have been spooked by that CLICK. 50's have killed a lot of deer but I haven't heard anything bad about a 54 which is a little lighter in a one inch barrel. As I learned the hard way this season, target sights and hunting sight are two different animals. Hunting sights are coarser with a wider V or U in the rear notch. Good luck good shooting.

DP

[FL-Flinter]

missionary5155 - Thank You for the compliments!

northmn is correct, if you're hunting in thick brush or otherwise confined areas, you're better off going with a shorter bbl and overall length. This halfstock has a 33" long .54cal bbl 15/16" across the flats - lighter weight and the balance is perfect, this one I built for my wife, it was supposed to be her hog & deer rifle done in range style until a couple money-grubbing alleged "doctors" crippled her right arm with a botched carpal tunnel operation. (sorry I'm still angry over it)

I cannot stress enough how important it is to correctly fit the gun to the user and it's a whole lot more than just LOP. It's also important to point out that one need not sacrifice bbl length in exchange for obtaining a lighter overall weight or preventing the muzzle from being too-heavy. The amount of options available in ML's is almost endless and you're not limited to a set style, length or shape. Tapered octagon and octagon to round barrels as well as all-round bbls are all options as are bbl length of 44" or any shorter length.

Weight distribution plays a roll in the body type of the shooter, where some need more weight toward the muzzle, others need more weight on the butt end but that doesn't mean the gun need be unbalanced, it's just a matter of laying out the weight distribution so it's most beneficial to the user. And, of course you have all the other variables as well, heel drop, cast, ect...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/markkw/Cracker54cal/cracker54right.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/markkw/Cracker54cal/Cracker18.jpg

[Sven]

Very nice, FL Flinter! I didn't remember the barrel length on my Lyman Great Plains, so I just measured -- 33". I agree that a 38" to 42" barrel is going to get pretty long to still hunt in the brush, which is usually how I hunt during muzzleloader season! As a matter of fact, I love my Rem. Model Seven carbine for that very reason! I'll have to concider that extra 9" of length next week as I sneak through the woods( or attempt to). I'm sure I sound like a white man!

Sven

[northmn]

I too like your work Flinter. I get luke warm looking at any pistol anymore but like the rifle a lot. I have done a couple like it. I cannot place its historical design and do not mean that to be a critisizm as we can get too hung up on that stuff. I have built a couple to my own specs that I have enjoyed. I also agree on the fit. For a hunting rifle in Northern MN it's hard as you can encounter miserable weather like we have had this year where heavier coats are needed to sweatshirt weather other years. Minnesota has been called the state where you can appreciate all four seasons, some say in one day. I ahve shot a few deer by walking slowly through the woods, but it is tough sledding. I really have found in a lot of cases that I just need to stay out of too heavy of brush as you cannot walk softly anyway. The fresh snow on ice made sneaking pretty hard this year also. One reason we sound like a white man is that we walk too fast. I am really guilty of that. The Ojibwe were and are also smart enough to wait out deer or drive them. I would still keep the barrel length down and really pay attention to the sights.

Northmn

[FL-Flinter]

Sven,

Thank You for the compliment!

Rifles, even the longrifles with a 42" - 44" bbl, if they're balanced and fit properly, will handle very well as far as the user-gun interface is concerned but the issue at hand is how well the gun interfaces with the environmental conditions it'll be used in.

If we look at the Jaeger design, we find heavy-built big bores generally with a 28" - 32" bbl, the heavier build stock is what keeps things in balance - if one was to put a dainty little longrifle stock on a Jaeger bbl it would be a hideously muzzle-heavy gun .... much like most of the modern in-lines :groner:

Throughout history we can readily pull examples of the extremes from both ends of the bbl length spectrum from the stubby little 14.5" to 17" bbl close cavalry combat flintlocks from Russia to those sporting 60"+ bbl from various regions - all developed based on specific needs but one thing remains no matter what regional area you look at and that's the general pattern of "average" barrel lengths evolving to fall within the 32" - 38" range which held over through most of the BPCR days as well. Once the basic design of a shoulder weapon was agreed upon, no matter what the style or barrel length, balance & handling were for the most part a major consideration in the muzzleloader days when guns were built one at a time.

I'm going to throw out another point that often gets me in hot water on these forums and that's the "length of pull" issue. Without a doubt, 99.99% of American made guns are built with a LoP that is far too long and I don't care if we're talking ML's, BPCR or the most modern composite mounted gas-auto's. I can't tell you how many times I hear the comments made about the mil-surp Mosin-Nagant rifles LoP being "too-short" and how many times I've argued the point about short being far superior a condition than "too-long". Go into any gunshop in the summertime or early fall and just stand around the counter and watch customers for a few hours. They come in wearing a tee shirt to pick out the deer rifle they'll be hunting with in November & December when it's snowing & nasty cold. I'll bet you can stand there watching the customer for a week you'll be lucky to see just one show up with three or four layers of clothes and their heavy hunting jacket to check the "fit" of their gun in the condition under which they'll be using it.

Now, consider this.... think about the handling issues you've encountered while hunting in thick scrubs, briar patches, palmetto patches or swamps. How many times has the muzzle getting hung-up been as much of an issue as the butt getting hung-up on your clothing? If you really think about this, you'll see what I'm getting at here. How many times have you missed a shot on a thunder chicken not because the 28" bbl on your shotgun got hung-up but because the 14" LoP caused the buttpad to catch on you jacket sleeve or under your shoulder?

Another thing is the comb, most are too-straight and this combined with having the LoP too-long and an insufficient amount of cast-off is a recipe for creating a gun that is not user-friendly. I've proven it time and again, people can teach their bodies to shoot a gun with a LoP that is a little short far more easily than they can compensate for a LoP that is too-long. 98% of serious sport shooters will spend a lot of time developing loads and trying to print those pretty "ragged hole" groups yet while these shooters will readily invest the time and effort fine tuning loads, few, if any, will even consider the relationship of how well they interact with the gun. How many times have you heard people with the latest loudenboomer mega-magnum complain about sore shoulders and cheeks? Ever wonder why they choose to inflict such punishment upon themselves when the majority of it can be alleviated by simply building the stock correctly and obtaining the proper fit to the user? How well the gun and user interface is just as important as how well the gun shoots.

The problem is that consumers as a whole are simply stuck in a rut, they blindly accept whatever is on the rack and go with it even if it beats the crap out of them or they miss that trophy buck because the soft rubber buttpad they need to try and limit the beating got hung-up on their jacket sleeve. Now consider the difference when you eliminate the beating issue with proper stock design which means changing out the rubber buttpad that gets stuck on everything for a nice no-snag buttplate and shortening the LoP so you further eliminate the "hung butt" issue completely. Just some of the thoughts I put into fitting someone for a stock, then there's the matter of fitting the rest of the gun not only to the user but to the conditions in which it will be used as well......and people wonder why I can't sleep at night. :coffee:

[FL-Flinter]

I too like your work Flinter. I get luke warm looking at any pistol anymore but like the rifle a lot. I have done a couple like it. I cannot place its historical design and do not mean that to be a critisizm as we can get too hung up on that stuff.
Northmn

No offense taken in any way - absolutely legitimate question.

The rifle is what I call a "cracker" style, "cracker" being the term used for a native-born Floridian that came about more in recent history long after the time period of these rifles. There is no set design standards for these as you would find with a Lancaster or Tennessee from a particular builder, it's definitely a generalized design based upon the type of rifles carried by the original "cow hunters" of Florida long before it was part of the US. Cow hunter was the term used to identify those folks who free-ranged cattle and had to go hunting them down to round them up for market. While the longrifle builders in the colonies were producing decorated guns in their shop, these guns were built for function rather than beauty and were later personalized by the owner. True representation of these guns means not having the molding lines perfectly symmetrical, the carving not highly finished and the engraving being in the style of what is now commonly called "folk art". Florida has always been a very cultural diverse place as many people found there way here for many reasons and among them was escaping hardships of their homelands, hiding from the law and of course pirates and legitimate trade business. While there is considerable recorded history about the American colonies, there is actually very little about pre-America Florida and especially the southern regions. Thus I make no claims on these rifles as being "historically correct". Of course I lovingly argue that point with anything considering that not everyone had the money to shell-out a year's pay or more for a fancy colonial longrifle - there were plenty enough pieced together by the common folks using whatever parts and wood were handy at the time. Function wins out over fancy when it could very well mean the difference between life and death.

I have no argument of staying historically correct to the letter when someone wants a particular reproduction of XYZ gun from ABC time or a specific builder, that's only proper to do so. When it comes to someone wanting X gun with Y options, unless they are looking to relate to a specific time period, I take no issue with and actually encourage people build/buy what they want that makes them happy as long as they don't try passing it off as anything other than "theirs". Same with the pistol above, it's somewhat based on a long barrel pistol carried by some Spanish guy but likeness ends at "somewhat" and I don't claim it as being anything other than my own design. :bigsmyl2:

[Russell James]

Beautiful work fellas, well done!
you are truly craftsmen.
RJ

[northmn]

As to rifle fit, LOP is one aspect. The drop at the comb is also important. The 03 Springfield had a reputation of nailing people if they did not put the thumb parrallel with the stock instead of wrapping the thumb around it in a normal manner. Some longer armed guys probably had that problem. While it is all personal I can agree that too long a stock just does not work, to short can be accomodated. When I build a heavy recoiling gun such as the light 12 I just finished, I shoot the thing before finishing to see to it that it fits. Too high a comb can give acorns on the cheek as can design. I put a slip on recoil pad on a 45-70 with a steel butt to shoot it in the summer and had to remove it to see the sights during November deer season. There have been several variations of ML's built. Even in the East they had Shimmels, some of which resembled a long rifle but had no buttplate or some variation, and a strap trigger guard. Even some had no trigger guard. Another shorter barreled rifle I like is the English game gun. They used lighter barrels of good steel and balanced out well. The comb parrallel to the bore and nice straight wide buttplates to absorb recoil as they tended to be big bore. A little 60 was fine for deer. As we are original builders, building a rifle to our specs that could have been made is great. We only know about what was made by the surviving specimens. How many have been lost that have seen heavy use? One individual found a Hawken barrel being used for a fence post.

Northmn

[FL-Flinter]

James,

Thank You for the compliment!


Northmn,

Have you taken a look at the shortened Russian cavalry carbine? Bores were in the 0.670" - 0.760" range and the bbl length being 14.5" - 17" and LoP around 12.5" I've got other projects in the works right now, underhammer and some knives I need to get out to customers but when I get a little time I'm going to build one.

Good historically accurate information is definitely hard to find and as you said, most original guns have lost to time and of those examples that do remain, a profile of a true "custom" builder could never be established with just a small sampling of the gun or accouterments he/she built because many were "built to order" rather than purchased off a rack. This is the way it was in many coastal areas. Even if you look at well known knife/sword smiths, all may have had a "signature" series but not a one would turn down making one "to order" if the money was there. That's why I often take issue with those who claim "it was done this way and only this way" - unless they were there every minute of the day 200 or however many years ago, they are simply blind to the reality that money talks and BS walks.

[northmn]

One sees an awe if you will of the original "masters" such as JP Beck or Rupp and their work. They also attribute to them a craftsmanship ethic that may be more imaginary than real. They made mistakes as any handbuilder will and some are obvious. Some of the guns show it. They had to eat and had to produce. The surviving rifles made by these masters often equal less than one a year they were in business. They were also ones that likely were not used much. I have been involved in discussions concerning the smooth rifles, bore sizes and whatever as there were records of a lot of freshening of bores. In the end they built what customers wanted and that likely varied. There are surviving specimens with barrels 50" long or greater. I think that is why they survived, they were too clumsy to use.

DP

[Sven]

Thanks for the reminider about LOP. I agree that shorter is better than longer. I bought a cut down stock for my Model Seven and loaned it to my wife's BIL for our niece to use. I got it back and after shooting it a bit with the short stock noticed two things. One is the short stock worked just fine. I'm bearly 5'8" and 32" sleeves on a shirt are almost long, so the short stock was fine. The other thing is I found a long crack in the wood! Don't know if it was from shooting it with loose screws or something else. Someday I need to see about fixing it.

Looking a bit closer at that full stock Hawkin flinter at Track of the Wolf, I see they offer a barrel length of 36" as well as 42", so that's something to concider. Trigger reach is 13 3/4", so I'll have to do some comparing there, too. Doesn't sound too terribly long, but. . .

Northmn, I suppose what was found in our neck of the woods about the early 1800's was more of a French Trade rifle. I'm not sure I necessarily want to go that route, but it's interesting to think about. The more I see the in-line guns (I hate to even call them a muzzleloader) the more I want to go back to what the ML season was intended for. It's starting tomorrow, but between work and wife's doc appt. in Duluth on Tues, the soonest I'll get out is Wed. afternoon. Oh, well. . .

[Mike Brooks]

Here's some of my stuff. I've been building flint guns for 28 years now and still enjoy it. click on the pictures for more pictures....if that makes sense....:veryconfu
www.fowlingguns.com

[waksupi]

Here's some of my stuff. I've been building flint guns for 28 years now and still enjoy it. click on the pictures for more pictures....if that makes sense....:veryconfu
www.fowlingguns.com (http://www.fowlingguns.com)

Mike, good to see your posts here. I had seen your page before, and you do fine work. Keep it up!

[northmn]

Never seen a Russian carbine but sounds interesting. I have seen a few NW Trade Guns show up. The Great Lakes were a primary highway for the Voyageurs and a lot of trading went on in our area. There have been a few found in the rivers like Rainy River. Many were found loaded with shot. I personally think that shot may have been used more than some think as heavy shot like about 2-BB size can be used on a lot of critters including deer up close. I also think it was handy for lining up on waterfowl. The Red River Road was a major artery from Winnepeg to Minneapolis in the fur trade days. Its intersting that a lot of history of the "West" is in the midwest. Northfield can take credit for eliminating the Younger/James gang. I was at the local sporting goods store yeaterday watching people fondle the new inlines. While that is a matter of choice its too bad there aren't any traditional rifles for them to see anymore. As to the seasons. I am old enough to have attended some meetings with the DNR to get ML seasons. Many clubs were involved. I do not think we would have bothered had we known inlines would take over. Most wanted to rondezvoux out in the deer woods. Many now hunt during the regular season with their traditional guns. Its nice to see pictures of well made guns, my camera is supposed to be coming for Christmas.

Northmn

[Mike Brooks]

Mike, good to see your posts here. I had seen your page before, and you do fine work. Keep it up!
Hey thanks, nice to be here. I've fallen down the rabbit hole and discovered BPCR's, that is what brought me over here. It's all big brass cases and big lead bullets these days. Which is good, since I haven't been able to keep a muzzleloader since 1996!:roll:

[FL-Flinter]

Good to see you here Mike!

Northmn,

Shot in the trade guns is interesting. I know there are surviving examples of gang-molds for shot in many different geographical areas, sizes being roughly from about #5 @ 0.120" to #1BUCK @ 0.300" One reference to the use of shot in battle was in the 1820's when a French merchant ship was pirated in the Caribbean. A French warship captain reported the merchant ship appeared abandoned at anchor and when they came alongside to board it, the pirate crew cut them to shreds with loads of small shot. IIRC the French had losses around 90%, 40% killed and 50% seriously wounded. Another account is from the Florida keys area in the late 1840's where a Spanish ship captain wrote a comment about how the long-range rifle fire from the brigands is to be respected for its accuracy but most feared by his crew is the fate of being cut and blinded in the hail of small shot.