Carcano and Gain twist barrels

[Cree]

Hey fellers-
I’ve got the chance to buy a 6.5 Carcano pretty cheap ($50) and while I don’t NEED to load for another oddball round, I’ve got a little “Cheedono” money (as in, She Don’t Know I Got It) and I could use a little project before deer season.

All that said, does anyone know, definitely, when (or if) Italy did away with the gain twist rifling in the 6.5? I’m guessing on the purpose-built carbines, like the 91/28(?) and the 91 Troop Specials, but I also know that some of the guns (maybe the 91/24?) were simply cut down rifles.

Before I lay down my hard-earned shekels, I’d like to have the best chance of decent accuracy on a gun most folks condemn before they ever shoot.

Unfortunately this gun has been sporterized and the barrel length is about 18 inches - within a hair’s breath of what a lot of the carbine barrels were. The other way I’ve heard is by looking at the rear sight - again, in this case, the original rear has been removed. Any “for sure” way of knowing, short of cleaning rods and counting twists?
If it helps, the gun is a Beretta-stamped gun from 1929.
Thanks!

[Ragnarok]

I own an FNA/Brescia carbine from 1941 and I'm about certain it's gain twist rifling. I've never heard or read that they changed the rifling?

I can see the gain in the twist looking down the bore

[swheeler]

I think (KNOW)the 91-41 Rifles went to conventional rifling twist of about 1:8, I checked mine. I don't think you can see the gain twist with the naked eye, although there will be some that will imagine they can after reading their rifle has gain twist! Human nature you know :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:[smilie=l:

[Ragnarok]

Yeh...I can see the change in twist....I just pulled the bolt on my 6.5mm carbine and looked.

Not so apparent looking down the bore from the muzzle....easier to see from the breech end. The rate of twist obviously ramps up towards the front. I can't really tell if the lands/grooves gain at a constant rate from breech to muzzle....but it's obvious by mid-bore the twist is tighter than the chamber end. This a 'cavalry carbine' with attached bayonet approx. 18" barrel

Looking from the muzzle it is noticeable to a degree comparing the angle of the lands from front to back....but at a casual glance looks like any other rifled bore.

On interesting thing I did just notice....this Carcano has a lot of 'free-bore' ahead of the chamber...like maybe 3/4" past the chamber before the rifling starts....never noticed that before!!….probably to accommodate the really long/heavy military bullets

Not all that educated on the Italian Carcanos….so couldn't comment on longer barreled rifles/short rifles/carbines as to just how much or whatever rate of rifling might be whacked off on a Bubb-job. Could always be a re-barrel project if it won't shoot?

[nekshot]

I don't get why you would buy a gun you feel is below par? I personally like these actions because alot of neat cast type cartridges can be worked thru the action . If you don't have a shop and some basic metal work tools I would say pass on the "junk" and hopefully some body with vision for the gun buys it. And at that price that is a naughty steal. Sure hope your not buying it from a widow or such!

[Der Gebirgsjager]

All the pre-World War II 6.5mm weapons have right hand gain twist rifling, 19.25 to 8.25. 7.35mm weapons have constant right hand 10 inch twist rifling. (Source: The Book of Rifles, W.H.B. Smith & Joseph E. Smith).

I have a 1920s 6.5mm carbine, and the gain twist rifling is very noticeable when viewed from the breech with the bolt removed.

[swheeler]

^^^^^^ this here

[junkbug]

If it is a 6.5mm with fixed sights made after 1940 it should have a constant twist rifling. There may be an exception.

[Texas by God]

I'm going to borrow "Cheedono".
And I would buy a working Carcano for $50!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Cree]

Thanks! I actually like the Carcanos, just never had the chance to do anything with them. Yeah, it might be $50, but then, add in brass, dies (even used ones), and the inevitable search for parts and pieces and that $50 turns into $150 real quick.
On the other hand, it will keep me out of trouble for a little while, and the Boss Lady likes that.

I’ll keep you guys posted on what happens, but it might be a bit with the boy home for 10 days before he goes to MCT at Geiger.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Proceed with caution. Cheemayno!

[shaune509]

just a point ive read that carcano's have an over sized bore, so slug and size to match. Hornada makes a special j=word just for them.
Shaune509

[Thin Man]

I acquired a 6.5 Carcano carbine recently, then gathered all the materials needed to handload ammo for it. This included dies, shell holder, brass and j-word bullets. From having read about this caliber having an oversize groove I picked up 2 bags of Prvi Partizan .268" projectiles and started with them first. Poor results, they grouped like buckshot and gave pressure signs with starting powder charge loads. I already had some .263" bullets for another rifle I own and tried them. Instant groups and no pressure signs with starting loads. Increased the powder charges slowly and got the same good groups with only modest pressure signs. These Carcano carbines were built with a normal 200 meter "battle zero" meaning a high point of impact relative to the point of aim. Cured this with a Brownell's replacement (very tall) Mauser front sight. Once installed I fired groups and gradually reduced the sight until aim and impact suited me. Now this Carcano carbine uses common .263" bullets and hits where it looks.

[Pressman]

My first Carcano was a 6.5 carbine with beautiful wood. It was a Terni that I think was 1941. It turned out to be a cut down rifle with gain twist. The sort barrel might hit a target at 25 yards, with the boolit going sideways.
I had it rebarreled to 7.62x39 and converted to single shot.
I ended up selling the gun in Des Moines 16 years ago, I would really like to know what happened to it.

Always check the twist on any carbine purchase.

[JTCoyoté]

Hey fellers-
I’ve got the chance to buy a 6.5 Carcano pretty cheap ($50) and while I don’t NEED to load for another oddball round, I’ve got a little “Cheedono” money (as in, She Don’t Know I Got It) and I could use a little project before deer season.

All that said, does anyone know, definitely, when (or if) Italy did away with the gain twist rifling in the 6.5? I’m guessing on the purpose-built carbines, like the 91/28(?) and the 91 Troop Specials, but I also know that some of the guns (maybe the 91/24?) were simply cut down rifles.

Before I lay down my hard-earned shekels, I’d like to have the best chance of decent accuracy on a gun most folks condemn before they ever shoot.

Unfortunately this gun has been sporterized and the barrel length is about 18 inches - within a hair’s breath of what a lot of the carbine barrels were. The other way I’ve heard is by looking at the rear sight - again, in this case, the original rear has been removed. Any “for sure” way of knowing, short of cleaning rods and counting twists?
If it helps, the gun is a Beretta-stamped gun from 1929.
Thanks!

The M91/24 Italian Carcano carbines weren't merely cut down long rifles. The folks at Italian Ordnance were fully aware of the accuracy and bullet stability problems they would create if they just lopped 13" from the muzzle end of it's gain twist barrel and called it good. This is not to say that in the decades since the rifles were decommissioned a bunch of them were not cut down by back yard gunsmiths who were unaware of the gain twist dilemma.

The REAL thing can be identified very easily by the stampings on the barrel's "Knoch's form" where it threads into the receiver ring. Each flat will be stamped. The left flat will have the rifles serial number, the center flat will show the maker's stamp, Brescia, Beretta, Terni, and so on. The deal breaker is found on the right flat... if your carbine has only the year of manufacture, like 97, 99, 01, 03, etc. you most likely have a "bubba'd" Carcano carbine. If however, there is a conversion stamp, an oval forward of the mfg. date, with FARE in the top of the oval, a number in the middle, 24 to 29 indicating the date of conversion, and at the oval's bottom the word TERNI, and... to the right of the original manufacture date a stamped 5 pointed star, not a 6 pointed asterisk... if all these stampings are there, you likely have an accurate shootin' authentic M91/24 Carcano carbine.

My understanding is that all of the sanctioned 91/24 conversions were done at TERNI between 1924 and '29. How this conversion was done is quite ingenious and I will describe it in detail in an upcoming post, right here, with pictures and stuff. ~JT

[Rouge9457]

I have a carcano stamped 1936 terni that has the 91 adjustable sight. Dont understand how it could be an older cut down rifle with that date stamped on it.

[waksupi]

Harry Pope made a lot of gain twist barrels, as did other barrel makers of the day. Harry determined he couldn't tell a lick of difference in how well they shot.

[samari46]

Buddy did a cast bullet conversion on one of the carcanos. Old U.S. model of 1917 barrel, cut the breech end off and chambered it for the 6.5 carcano-30. Necked up the 6.5 case so it would hold a 30cal cast bullet. Course he had to rework the backend of the 1917 barrel Partway he got disgusted, scrapped the barrel and found a 7.62 nato machine gun barrel cut off the chamber. Then rechambered for his new cartridge. Built up the carcano stock so it kinda sorta looked like an old marksman stock. Side mounted scope and redid the bolt. One day shows up without it and some guy had offered an insane amount of money for it. Never fear soon he was on another quest. Frank

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Not too off the subject, I hope. I sure remember "back in the day" when Carcanos were sold at almost give away prices, through the Shotgun News, ads in gun magazines, and in some unlikely stores like drug stores in hogshead barrels-- "Take your pick--$15". Some appeared unissued. Ammo was cheap and plentiful, for awhile -- but the only soft point hunting ammo was the military ammo than had the bullets pulled and replaced. I knew several teenagers late 1950s that got their first deer with such an arrangement. Of course, GCA'68 changed all that! Eventually Norma came through with new, reloadable ammo, but it was pricy and most of the fellows I knew that used the Carcano allowed them to fall into disuse in favor of something else. It wasn't the gun, it was the ammo supply.

I've got several in my accumulation. The gain twist carbine I mentioned in an earlier post, very short; and a moschetto which is the little carbine with the folding bayonet. One shorty that was converted to 8x57mm by parties unknown and is a single shot for lack of an 8mm clip (an item which may or may not even exist, depending on whom you believe), and two probably unissued WW II short rifles and an M-38. The M-38 came late when I decided I'd like to try the 7.35mm cartridge, so I had to buy a sporterized version and restore it, as all of the as-issued specimens seemed to be gone. This was a surprisingly hard job, because the only stock I could find was an unissued stock from SARCO which required a lot of inletting. The action kept wanting to go in crooked, tilted to one side, but eventually I got it squared away. It has the SA stamp on it, so it visited Finland. J&G Sales seems to have a supply of later model carbines obtained from............? Prices sure went up from the late '50s!

They are good rifles, and the only one I don't have, don't particularly want, and is hard to find anyway is the full length WW I version. Because the clips haven't been made since WW II, they're getting scarce and expensive. It used to be fashionable to criticize the Carcano for this and that, but the only complaint I've got is their peculiar safety. Sometimes when loaded, cocked, safety on, I've turned the safety off and the bolt has opened. All in all, a pretty good rifle. :grin:

DG

[Conditor22]

The 6.5 Carcano I'm working on loading for is a war trophy from the end of WWII, so far it only chambers Norma 6.5 Carcano brass. The sights are terrible, they are set up for shooting people-sized targets between 100 and 400 meters, and finding load data is a pain. I finally found some in Lee's modern reloading the second edition.

If someone has found economical brass that can be easily formed into 6.5 Carcano brass, please PM me.

[junkbug]

Do you have a 91/24 or a 91/28? the later was made until 1937 or 1938.