Two species of humanity

[wmitty]

This will not make sense to non-believers, but it becomes more obvious with each passing day to me. The apostle Paul (2 Cor 2 v 17) describes the one believing in Christ as being a new creature. Jesus Himself in John 3 v 3 states that unless a man is born from above he cannot see the kingdom of God ( he cannot discern things of a spiritual nature). This is why the non- believers can’t understand us and we can barely understand them. To look on the magnificent creation of Almighty God with it’s incredible complexity and conclude that it is simply a cosmic accident is a telltale indication that their minds are blinded to the truth. I was there. By the Father’s mercy I was given Life through His Son’s righteousness and perfect obedience!

[Newboy]

wmitty, I agree completely!

But it is born of a Calvinistic theology: there are the elect in whom dwells the Spirit of God, and the non-elect, who are controlled by Satan.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[wv109323]

I don't think when you become a Christian, your DNA changes. You are still just a human. By learning and following Gods plan your outlook changes. From no hope to complete hope, from condemnation as a nonbeliever to a believer who will be glorified when you die.
The bible says preaching is foolishness to the nonbeliever. The nonbeliever usually changes the channel or tunes in a different radio station when they land on a Christian broadcast. They do not want to hear it. And most of all , many nonbelievers do not know what the truth is or can not discern riscern right from wrong. A believer SHOULD obey all moral and civil law while the nonbeliver settles on his own beliefs. One may justify parking beside a fire hydrant or like Hitler wants to control the world.
The real confusion is when a person says he is a Christian but acts like a sinner. Physical we are the same but spiriually we are worlds apart.

[dtknowles]

This will not make sense to non-believers, but it becomes more obvious with each passing day to me. The apostle Paul (2 Cor 2 v 17) describes the one believing in Christ as being a new creature. Jesus Himself in John 3 v 3 states that unless a man is born from above he cannot see the kingdom of God ( he cannot discern things of a spiritual nature). This is why the non- believers can’t understand us and we can barely understand them. To look on the magnificent creation of Almighty God with it’s incredible complexity and conclude that it is simply a cosmic accident is a telltale indication that their minds are blinded to the truth. I was there. By the Father’s mercy I was given Life through His Son’s righteousness and perfect obedience!

All persons are created equal. If you believe that we (you and I) are of two different species do you consider my species inferior to yours.

Tim

[EDG]

Sorry but humans existed without your Bible for many thousands of years longer than the Bible has existed.
Even today there are billions (billions with a B) of people that get a long fine without it.
There is nothing else in existence that provides any physical proof that what you feel is true.
You cannot believe life is an accident. I interpret that as you are unable to accept that you and the rest of the human race are so insignificant. But if you look at the size of the rest of the universe both you and your god really are insignificant. Burn all your bibles and in 200 years your faith will totally be forgotten yet the rest of the universe will be unchanged. The laws governing the universe will go on as they always have whether man exists or not. Man is not the center of the universe.

[wmitty]

Sorry but humans existed without your Bible for many thousands of years longer than the Bible has existed.
Even today there are billions (billions with a B) of people that get a long fine without it.
There is nothing else in existence that provides any physical proof that what you feel is true.
You cannot believe life is an accident. I interpret that as you are unable to accept that you and the rest of the human race are so insignificant. But if you look at the size of the rest of the universe both you and your god really are insignificant. Burn all your bibles and in 200 years your faith will totally be forgotten yet the rest of the universe will be unchanged. The laws governing the universe will go on as they always have whether man exists or not. Man is not the center of the universe.



Guys; I will have to wait a bit to reply; we are bouncing along I35 between Austin and Dallas and I can barely restrain myself from bailing out due to the Bosse’s driving.

[EDG]

Where is your faith that your god will protect you from the hazards of the highway?


Guys; I will have to wait a bit to reply; we are bouncing along I35 between Austin and Dallas and I can barely restrain myself from bailing out due to the Bosse’s driving.

[1hole]

Well said mitty and the counter responses are simply examples of what you've observed.

None are as blind as those who will not see. Spiritual things are spiritually perceived; spiritually blind eyes are determined to not see the vivid proofs of God's hand all around them. Sad.

[Bigslug]

Interesting. . .

Have you ever stopped to consider that in your scenario, your god would have created both species: the suckers who will blindly accept the used car salesman's pitch that it's solid, in perfect shape, and only driven by grandma once a week to buy groceries vs. those of us who will kick the tires, pull the dipstick, and study the body panels before deciding that this Bondo-encrusted junker is not for us, going instead to seek out a different ride elsewhere?

#1. I would ask you just why would your god make these two species?

#2. I would point out to you that you're typing on a computer; probably in an air conditioned building; probably with a TV in it that can receive signals from space; probably with a car in the garage that can rocket you down an engineered roadbed at over 100 MPH, burning refined fuels made of creatures that died 150 million years ago (not 6,000); that you are not dead of disease or malnutrition before age 40; and that you would have NONE of that without members of your "alien species", or at least hybrids, who's every actions are NOT driven by "because the Bible says...", that expressed some doubts about how the universe was presented to them and weren't afraid to either call B.S. on the Man Behind The Curtain, or at least seriously reconsider his nature or motives. Would you be happier with your burlap underwear, your torchlight, and your tuberculosis?

[Char-Gar]

Species is a biological/scientific term and has no relevance to theology or faith. It means two creatures that are able to mate and whoes offspring is fertile. There is only one species of human. Now if you want to draw other distinctions between peoples, on the basis of what they believe, the have at it, but difference species is a no go.

It helps to understand that Biblical writers often used metaphor to express their intent.

[Blackwater]

Sorry but humans existed without your Bible for many thousands of years longer than the Bible has existed.
Even today there are billions (billions with a B) of people that get a long fine without it.
There is nothing else in existence that provides any physical proof that what you feel is true.
You cannot believe life is an accident. I interpret that as you are unable to accept that you and the rest of the human race are so insignificant. But if you look at the size of the rest of the universe both you and your god really are insignificant. Burn all your bibles and in 200 years your faith will totally be forgotten yet the rest of the universe will be unchanged. The laws governing the universe will go on as they always have whether man exists or not. Man is not the center of the universe.

Well, EDG, just as usual, you disbelievers always see language in whatever way suits your disbelief. You won't even consider the use of the word "species" to mean something of a symbolic nature. Why not? You disbelievers always have an argument for every statement a believer ever utters. But the content and nature of those arguments are as revealing as a literal confession from you. You don't want to believe, so ...... you won't. Note I said "won't," and not "can't." You are pre-disposed to disbelieve, and to defend your disbelief to the death - both physical and spiritual. OK. But it's God Himself who gave you that prerogative, and no man can take that from you. It's YOUR choice, and not His, so when you try to blame damnation on God, you're talking with a double tongue - just like Satan would have you do.

Bob Dylan wrote a song some years back entitled "You Gotta' Serve Somebody," and it was based on the simplest of facts. We all DO have to serve somebody, either it'll be God or Satan, and those who think of themselves as serving themselves, are really serving everything that's anti-Christ. That can only be Satan, but no believer expects you to own up to it.

So be it, then. But why do you persist in parading your disbelief in front of all us believers, and trying to foist off your doubts as "rationality" and "reason," when in fact, it's YOU who defies all rationality and reason when you deny the more clear and fundamental facts of our reasons to believe? What is it that you're so unduly proud of??? Doubt is really a noghingness. It's not even a "something!" And for THIS, you have chosen to be hostile to belief in the Lord and God and the Bible???? And you call that "rational" and "reason????" HA! It's nothing of the sort, and you can't not know it. You continue to try to be provocative in hopes of angering us believers, and getting one or more of us to lose our temper. But really, EDG, don't you think you've gone WAY beyond the point where you can anger us any more? Now, all we have for you is pity, mixed with a bit of distaste because of your antagonistic manner. But we've seen and suffered a LOT worse, both in our lives and in history. So your futile efforts to convert any of us, or affect our faith in the least sort of way, are a very sad comment on your disbeliefs, and the desperation with which you seem to feel is necessary to defend your illogical and unreasoning point of view. What you have is not a real faith in anything. It's just an attitude that's hostile to the Lord Jesus Christ, and anything that'd honestly Holy. OK. Your option. Your choice. But when damnation comes to you, don't even try to blame it on God's decision. He only gave you an option. YOU did the choosing, even when informed of the consequences. You make it easier and easier to see why God must eventually separate the holy from the unholy. It judy makes more and more sense, every time you post, sir. And I'm very sorry to have to say that, but that's just the way it is. God be with you. You need Him now more than you ever have.

[Blackwater]

Sorry but humans existed without your Bible for many thousands of years longer than the Bible has existed.
Even today there are billions (billions with a B) of people that get a long fine without it.
There is nothing else in existence that provides any physical proof that what you feel is true.
You cannot believe life is an accident. I interpret that as you are unable to accept that you and the rest of the human race are so insignificant. But if you look at the size of the rest of the universe both you and your god really are insignificant. Burn all your bibles and in 200 years your faith will totally be forgotten yet the rest of the universe will be unchanged. The laws governing the universe will go on as they always have whether man exists or not. Man is not the center of the universe.

Well, EDG, just as usual, you disbelievers always see language in whatever way suits your disbelief. You won't even consider the use of the word "species" to mean something of a symbolic nature. Why not? You disbelievers always have an argument for every statement a believer ever utters. But the content and nature of those arguments are as revealing as a literal confession from you. You don't want to believe, so ...... you won't. Note I said "won't," and not "can't." You are pre-disposed to disbelieve, and to defend your disbelief to the death - both physical and spiritual. OK. But it's God Himself who gave you that prerogative, and no man can take that from you. It's YOUR choice, and not His, so when you try to blame damnation on God, you're talking with a double tongue - just like Satan would have you do.

Bob Dylan wrote a song some years back entitled "You Gotta' Serve Somebody," and it was based on the simplest of facts. We all DO have to serve somebody, either it'll be God or Satan, and those who think of themselves as serving themselves, are really serving everything that's anti-Christ. That can only be Satan, but no believer expects you to own up to it.

So be it, then. But why do you persist in parading your disbelief in front of all us believers, and trying to foist off your doubts as "rationality" and "reason," when in fact, it's YOU who defies all rationality and reason when you deny the more clear and fundamental facts of our reasons to believe? What is it that you're so unduly proud of??? Doubt is really a noghingness. It's not even a "something!" And for THIS, you have chosen to be hostile to belief in the Lord and God and the Bible???? And you call that "rational" and "reason????" HA! It's nothing of the sort, and you can't not know it. You continue to try to be provocative in hopes of angering us believers, and getting one or more of us to lose our temper. But really, EDG, don't you think you've gone WAY beyond the point where you can anger us any more? Now, all we have for you is pity, mixed with a bit of distaste because of your antagonistic manner. But we've seen and suffered a LOT worse, both in our lives and in history. So your futile efforts to convert any of us, or affect our faith in the least sort of way, are a very sad comment on your disbeliefs, and the desperation with which you seem to feel is necessary to defend your illogical and unreasoning point of view. What you have is not a real faith in anything. It's just an attitude that's hostile to the Lord Jesus Christ, and anything that'd honestly Holy. OK. Your option. Your choice. But when damnation comes to you, don't even try to blame it on God's decision. He only gave you an option. YOU did the choosing, even when informed of the consequences. You make it easier and easier to see why God must eventually separate the holy from the unholy. It judy makes more and more sense, every time you post, sir. And I'm very sorry to have to say that, but that's just the way it is. God be with you. You need Him now more than you ever have.

[Blackwater]

Where is your faith that your god will protect you from the hazards of the highway?

Real faith, and "concern" are separate and unequal things. We have faith that whenever we die, we'll go to Heaven. We do NOT have "faith" that the Lord is some "sugar daddy in the sky" who protects us from the consequences of our own actions and mistakes. But then, one who can't believe in Christ, with all the evidence of Him all around us if we honestly looked, I guess it's no big surprise that you can't differentiate between "faith" and "concern," either. You're really not a lot of fun to play with, sir. You always have a very different dictionary and very different definitions than the rest of us have. But if you make the error of disbelief, I guess it's no big surprise that you'd make other elemental errors as well?

[Blackwater]

Interesting. . .

Have you ever stopped to consider that in your scenario, your god would have created both species: the suckers who will blindly accept the used car salesman's pitch that it's solid, in perfect shape, and only driven by grandma once a week to buy groceries vs. those of us who will kick the tires, pull the dipstick, and study the body panels before deciding that this Bondo-encrusted junker is not for us, going instead to seek out a different ride elsewhere?

#1. I would ask you just why would your god make these two species?

#2. I would point out to you that you're typing on a computer; probably in an air conditioned building; probably with a TV in it that can receive signals from space; probably with a car in the garage that can rocket you down an engineered roadbed at over 100 MPH, burning refined fuels made of creatures that died 150 million years ago (not 6,000); that you are not dead of disease or malnutrition before age 40; and that you would have NONE of that without members of your "alien species", or at least hybrids, who's every actions are NOT driven by "because the Bible says...", that expressed some doubts about how the universe was presented to them and weren't afraid to either call B.S. on the Man Behind The Curtain, or at least seriously reconsider his nature or motives. Would you be happier with your burlap underwear, your torchlight, and your tuberculosis?

Gee whiz, Slug! Stop being so silly! You excel at the art of "missing the point." He never really meant species, as in the scientific sense, but two quite different creatures, based on the content of what lies within them. It may or may not have been the best of all possible ways to state his premise, but if one WANTS to understand the content of his post, it's not really very difficult. And if there's no real will to understand the premise, why do you interrupt a serious discussion with your silliness???? If you just want to argue, why not seek a better realm within which to practice your chosen approach????

[Battis]

"There are those that believe as I do, and those that don't. I am right, you are wrong."
Geez, where have I heard that before?
Oh yeah...everywhere.
North vs south
Liberal vs conservative
Christian vs Jew
Red Sox fan vs Yankees fan
antigun vs pro gun
male vs female
straight vs gay
righty vs lefty

It goes on and on and on. One thing I noticed is that people who make such statements are usually the ones on shaky ground as far as their belief system. To reassure themselves, and make themselves feel better, they must tear down others. Just because I do not kneel next to you at your altar doesn't mean that my belief systems aren't as good as yours. I was raised Catholic, then I started thinking for myself when the Church's teachings conflicted with what I saw in the real world. Did I abandon the Church? No, I tailored what they taught me to my reality. Instead of wasting this precious life that God gave me worrying about what comes next, I am thankful for each day.
Am I going to "hell?" I am going exactly where I was meant to go. You have faith, I have faith in fate. What happened, what happens, what will happen has all been determined. That's what gets me through the day. If I am a different species, which I often think I am, then it's a more intelligent, thoughtful, considering species, as I was meant to be.

There is one question that I ask of a "true believer" to which their usual answer validates my belief system, and that is, "Does a dog have a soul?" Their usual answer is "no." That's when I know I'm right.

[Blackwater]

BW, Mitty asked a serious question, I gave him a serious answer, and it appears that maybe I understood his post better than you did. His interpretation of scripture is that we are incompatible beings - NO S*** he means in terms of thought, outlook, etc... If you want to quibble over the minutiae of the word "species" to appear that you have some traction, by all means, carry on with making a fool of yourself.

But he's probably right - I'll continue to add one to one and get two, and you'll continue to insist it's somehow 325 - and the question I posted still stands: what is your "perfect being's" game in creating us spiritually stunted cripples?

God never made any man a "spiritually stunted cripple." Men make themselves into those things, and they do it by choice, and by despising anything to do with Christianity. If my Down's Syndrome cousin can "get" and receive Christ, and have a true spiritual experience and revelation, then you could too, if only you allowed yourself to receive it. But you've rejected it in favor of creating your own concept of religion, and drumming up silly questions about those who do have true faith. So be it. That's YOUR choice. I and many others have made a different choice, and you'll never be able, much less admit, that you've CHOSEN to not believe - you've rejected Christ, and all that has to do with Him. Again, so be it. That's YOUR choice, and there are consequences and rewards for our decisions in this matter, and you well know them. God be with you, and I sincerely hope something happens that will open your eyes, your mind, and your heart.

[wmitty]

Guys, sorry I took so long to get back to the discussion. Jesus Christ is Creator God who walked among men. I and the others here who believe know this. He has said "no man can come to Me unless My Father has enabled him". John 6 v. 44 & 65. The Father and His Son give spiritual life to whoever they are pleased to give it. Spiritual life is a gift given to some; no one deserves or earns it. Those who do not believe are blinded by Satan to the point that they can't see spiritual matters and they can't see that The Father and His Son and His Spirit are worthy of our adoration and obedience and praise. My question is can a believer effectively pray and request that these who are deceived and blinded by Satan be "born from above"? I have no anger or resentment for these guys who don't believe - guys, they can't believe! They can't see what we see!

[wmitty]

Some men are deceived by Satan and can be brought into the Light. Some men are children of their father and they will not. (John 8 v.44) Guys, I beg you to read the Gospel of John.

[Thundarstick]

Matthew 22:35-40

Mark 12:28-34

Luke 10:27

Absolutely! You (I) may be the ONLY Jesus someone sees today. It's our (Christians) inconsistencies that give others doubt, NOT Jesus. He is faithful and true for ever amen!

wmitty, Jesus has the knowledge and power to make this pronouncement, we don't. Our calling is to love, not judge intent, however we are not called to condone, ignore, or accept evil. Sometimes loving our neighbour does mean warning them, but seek to do even that in a humble spirit of love and not condemnation least you (I) close their ears to reason.

[Thundarstick]

Some men are deceived by Satan and can be brought into the Light. Some men are children of their father and they will not. (John 8 v.44) Guys, I beg you to read the Gospel of John.

Have you ever given up on someone, only to see God turn their lives to his will? I have!

[Sig556r]

There is one question that I ask of a "true believer" to which their usual answer validates my belief system, and that is, "Does a dog have a soul?" Their usual answer is "no." That's when I know I'm right.
That's quite deep right there...

[Thundarstick]

That's quite deep right there...

What's deep about it?

[Char-Gar]

C.S. Lewis in "Mere Christianity" tackled the question of whether a dog will be in heaven head on. He reasoned that dogs/cats and many other creatures are "sentient beings" and as such will be in heaven because of attatchment to humans.

I cleared this with my Pekinese Whitman and he says "Amen". I personally can't conceive of heaven being a place I would want to be without my critter friends.

[Char-Gar]

Have you ever given up on someone, only to see God turn their lives to his will? I have!

Shure, there are many people I can't reach, but God never gives up. Best for me to move on and let God deal with them another day, through another person. I ain't the be all and end all of God's tools.

[Blackwater]

Char-Gar, you always impress me with your wisdom. Anyone can learn facts, but it takes a real MAN to develop wisdom!

[Battis]

C.S. Lewis in "Mere Christianity" tackled the question of whether a dog will be in heaven head on. He reasoned that dogs/cats and many other creatures are "sentient beings" and as such will be in heaven because of attatchment to humans.

That's it? Settled by C.S. Lewis? No Biblical reference? How many "sentient beings" can you bring with you? And why would you need a dog in heaven? It's heaven...

[dtknowles]

That's it? Settled by C.S. Lewis? No Biblical reference? How many "sentient beings" can you bring with you? And why would you need a dog in heaven? It's heaven...

I guess in "heaven" you would need nothing but God. Sad kind of place, no dogs. Some visions of "heaven" have no attraction for me.

Tim

[1hole]

I've been interested in people's arguments for and against animals being in heaven for a long time. What's most odd is what I've seen as the two primary reasons for saying there won't be.

First, some don't see any Biblical mention of animals in heaven so they reason there will be none. I think that's a weak argument. There is likely to be many things in heaven we aren't told about. Maybe because it won't mean a thing to us yet?

Second, some say animals have no "immortal souls" so they can't be "resurrected". I ask, maybe animals have immortal souls, maybe they don't, maybe some do and some don't, but how can the lack of evidence make some folk so sure of either position?

What I KNOW from scripture is there will at least be white horses in heaven (Rev 19:11). I know the final heaven will be on earth (Rev 21:1-7) and I know God declared his original creation, including animals, to be "Good" and there's no logical argument suggesting He will concede any part of his original handiwork to Satan and leave it out of his final resurrection plans. From all that I know there will certainly be horses and almost certainly there will be many other animals on the new earth BUT I have no clue if they will be old animals resurrected or an entirely new batch or a mixture of old and new. ???

Bottom line, it's an interesting topic to discuss but it makes no difference because no one really knows and no one will go to heaven or hell on the animals in heaven question anyway.

[snowwolfe]

Since humans have been on this earth for millions of years I ask this question. How did they get to heaven before Christianity was even invented?

[1hole]

... I ask this question. How did they get to heaven before Christianity was even invented?

Good question. Short answer is, "By faith (trust) in God." Long answer is, "We aren't told in detail so we really don't know anything other than salvation is by faith/trust in God."

The historical flow of scripture is the record of what would become the Jews from which Messiah Jesus would come. The Old Testament records Jewish history up to the birth and sacrifice of Jesus (as the son of man) and the New Testament church in his name. It was the physical resurrection of Jesus that completed the old rules and founded Christianity by the heart (faith) of believers. As you know, faith in Jesus (as the Son of God) has been the only means of salvation since that time.

Now, I wonder, what do you understand to be "heaven"? I ask because there are two heavenly states (Sheol/Hades and Paradise - there's NO Purgatory!) for the storage of departed souls before anyone sees the REAL heaven on earth. The REAL (final) heaven won't come until after the seven years of hell on earth we call the Tribulation period AND after the following 1,000 year kingdom of God of God on earth AND then not until after the following Great White Throne judgements. So, no one is in the real heaven or hell at this time. And no one can honestly tell you any more than that because that's all there is in the Book.

There's a lot we don't yet know but I trust that God has things worked out so the saved of all history are secure and they too will all be fully restored with us - in the flesh - right here, for eternity, on this very earth that we were all made from.

:)

[Char-Gar]

Since humans have been on this earth for millions of years I ask this question. How did they get to heaven before Christianity was even invented?

The nature of God is revealed in his creation/nature. Those who correctly discerned His nature, worshiped him and followed in faith are heaven bound. Christanity was not "invented" it was revealed.

The operative concept here, is the peoples response to God revelation/revealing through out the history of humankind.

[Char-Gar]

I do not believe that a loving creator God would create a world made rich by our love for family, friends and pets and then say..."Well you can forgit all of that, in heaven all you need is me". God did not create us as loving beings, give us people and critters to love and then jerk it all away from us at death. That is not my notion of a loving creating God.

[snowwolfe]

So, you can get to heaven then without accepting God?

[Char-Gar]

So, you can get to heaven then accepting God?

No you can not.

[snowwolfe]

No you can not.

Interesting, all the people born before Christianity had no god to accept and went to hell.

[dangitgriff]

Remember: God didn’t create religion...mankind did.
Also: the meaning of life, the universe and everything is:
42

R/Griff

[Char-Gar]

Interesting, all the people born before Christianity had no god to accept and went to hell.

Total nonsense....God existed before man and created man. Man did not create God. Christianity is God's final statement to man, but certainly not the first.

[Battis]

What about aborted babies that had a heartbeat, brainwaves and fingerprints when they were murdered? Where do they end up? I'm not trying to stir the crap. I would like to know that they have a place, and those that killed them will be punished.

[tinhorn97062]

What about aborted babies that had a heartbeat, brainwaves and fingerprints when they were murdered? Where do they end up? I'm not trying to stir the crap. I would like to know that they have a place, and those that killed them will be punished.

Both of your concerns are true. They DO have a place, and those responsible WILL stand before the judgment seat of Christ and give an account. So you will you. And so will I.

[snowwolfe]

Total nonsense....God existed before man and created man. Man did not create God. Christianity is God's final statement to man, but certainly not the first.

Your answer is nonsense. People existed on earth well before organized religions and no one knew they had to accept anyone, so therefore they all went to hell.

Organized religion is the opiate for the masses.

[Char-Gar]

Your answer is nonsense. People existed on earth well before organized religions and no one knew they had to accept anyone, so therefore they all went to hell.

Organized religion is the opiate for the masses.

Thank you, that helped me allot. I was trying to decide if you are:

A. Totally ignorant, with zero knowledge of the Judeo/Christian faith history and tradition.
B. A anti-religion troll, just one of many, that come to this forum to entertain themselves at the expense of the faithful with their pseudo intellectual comments and challenges.

You are B. and that explains your 3rd Grade Class Clown responses to the serious matters of faith. I now know what to do with you. Thank you again for revealing who you are. The Karl Marx quote put the cap on it.

[snowwolfe]

Thank you, that helped me allot. I was trying to decide if you are:

A. Totally ignorant, with zero knowledge of the Judeo/Christian faith history and tradition.
B. A anti-religion troll, just one of many, that come to this forum to entertain themselves at the expense of the faithful with their pseudo intellectual comments and challenges.

You are B. and that explains your 3rd Grade Class Clown responses to the serious matters of faith. I now know what to do with you. Thank you again for revealing who you are. The Karl Marx quote put the cap on it.

And we thank you for showing your true "Christian" character. Which is so typical of people of your class.

[popper]

"Does a dog have a soul?" Their usual answer is "no." That's when I know I'm right. Interesting but totally irrational thought.
1) if dogs have a 'soul', they, being 'innocent' would be in Heaven!
2) If dogs have a 'soul', why not spiders, rattlesnakes and grain have one also?
3) We are NOT in charge, no matter how we love our pets ( and non-believer friends).
Believers are told to spread the word to the world so that the Spirit will convince. Does Satan give the same command? Why do non-believers fight so hard to convince believers they are wrong? If it in reality doesn't make a difference, why argue the point? Nothing lost, nothing gained!

[1hole]

And we thank you for showing your true "Christian" character. Which is so typical of people of your class.

I'm puzzled; just what did he say that jerked your anti-"Christian" character chain so hard?

Or, is this post just another example of how deeply ingrained the snarky attitude is embedded in your supposed superior innerlecshul class (ROFL! :lol:) is to take any disagreement from is personal and just plain MEAN? I mean, do you think we Christians are, you know, like, really mean to you, as contrasted to the way you and your class are always so mild, courteous, and respectful of others - i.e., us.

[snowwolfe]

I'm puzzled; just what did he say that jerked your anti-"Christian" character chain so hard?

Or, is this post just another example of how deeply ingrained the snarky attitude is embedded in your supposed superior innerlecshul class (ROFL! :lol:) is to take any disagreement from is personal and just plain MEAN? I mean, do you think we Christians are, you know, like, really mean to you, as contrasted to the way you and your class are always so mild, courteous, and respectful of others - i.e., us.

Being called ignorant, troll, 3rd grade, class clown, reference to being a communist. I used to consider myself a Christian, but then people around me who considered themselves Christians showed me it was not a path I wanted to follow. I’ll continue my search for a higher power elsewhere.

[Char-Gar]

Being called ignorant, troll, 3rd grade, class clown, reference to being a communist.

Well, I didn't call you a communist, I just mentioned you quoted from Karl Marx. You made the rest of the connection yourself. Your questions were very shallow and did display great ignorance of the Christian faith and Christian theology. Your comments were the childish gotcha type. You and your ilk come to this forum to make sport of the faith and the faithful and that makes you a troll. I just calls em the way I sees em! You be what you be!

I can respect a man with honest questions and will do my best to give him honest answers. I am not offended by questions and those who seek to understand. You on the other hand are not honest in your questions, but only seek to scoff, trap and play with people. I can't respect people who do that, they lack essential intellectual honesty. I recall that Jesus was very harsh with those who tried to subvert and undermine the faith of others. I see no reason to handle you with kid gloves and pretend you are something you are not.

It is sad, that you and folks like you infest this forum. It prevents real honest discussion of Christian theology and thought and subverts the purpose of the forum. It is time to change the name of the forum from "Deep Theology" to "Faithless Scoffers"

[Thundarstick]

Your answer is nonsense. People existed on earth well before organized religions and no one knew they had to accept anyone, so therefore they all went to hell.

Organized religion is the opiate for the masses.

If you care to read it.

Rom 1:18-32

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

[snowwolfe]

Well, I didn't call you a communist, I just mentioned you quoted from Karl Marx. You made the rest of the connection yourself. Your questions were very shallow and did display great ignorance of the Christian faith and Christian theology. Your comments were the childish gotcha type. You and your ilk come to this forum to make sport of the faith and the faithful and that makes you a troll. I just calls em the way I sees em! You be what you be!

I can respect a man with honest questions and will do my best to give him honest answers. I am not offended by questions and those who seek to understand. You on the other hand are not honest in your questions, but only seek to scoff, trap and play with people. I can't respect people who do that, they lack essential intellectual honesty. I recall that Jesus was very harsh with those who tried to subvert and undermine the faith of others. I see no reason to handle you with kid gloves and pretend you are something you are not.

It is sad, that you and folks like you infest this forum. It prevents real honest discussion of Christian theology and thought and subverts the purpose of the forum. It is time to change the name of the forum from "Deep Theology" to "Faithless Scoffers"

Why answer any of my questions or thoughts? After all, you claim I am here only to infest. So if I am then you are childish to entertain my thoughts with a response.
Your not here to discuss anything, you just want people to believe what you do.

[Char-Gar]

Why answer any of my questions or thoughts? After all, you claim I am here only to infest. So if I am then you are childish to entertain my thoughts with a response.
Your not here to discuss anything, you just want people to believe what you do.

You are not here to discuss. You are here to deny, challenge and scoff. Once you revealed yourself, I stop answering your questions. I an OK with honest questions, even if they are childish, but you were not asking honest questions.

[Battis]

"Does a dog have a soul?" Their usual answer is "no." That's when I know I'm right. Interesting but totally irrational thought.
Totally irrational thought? Wow. Talk about arrogance. Why not other living things? Do you really believe, because you "believe," that you have a corner on existence, and only you matter? If we're talking "irrational thought," and I did not bring it up, let's talk about that which you preach, that which goes against all known science and common sense. Religion as you preach is, to me, lazy, based on fear. "I don't know what's out there, and I don't want to rationalize it, so I'll plug in other people's irrational beliefs." I was completely willing to leave it alone, to leave you to wallow in your faith, then you had to attack my belief system, which is a rational, well thought out belief system; not the same as yours, but just as valid.

[snowwolfe]

You are not here to discuss. You are here to deny, challenge and scoff. Once you revealed yourself, I stop answering your questions. I an OK with honest questions, even if they are childish, but you were not asking honest questions.

If you were able to answer my original question you would of. Instead of deflecting and going on with your immature bantering. You act like the spoiled bully in the playground. By now the intent of my original question is long lost to you.

[1hole]

Char and Thunder, et al, isn't it interesting that those who aren't believers try so hard to convince us we're mental cases even tho they have no interest in us at all.

I often wonder what drives them, what do they hope to accomplish? If we are "wrong" then we lose nothing and have lived happier lives than they. But, if they are wrong ....

Seems our self styled intellectuals have convinced themselves we are wrong and we can't possibly know anything they don't know so they won't listen! Instead, they have chosen to believe "scientists" who are equally ignorant of spiritual things rather than seeing what is before them while insisting we can't possibly know or have experienced things of which they know nothing at all. And, in their massive ignorance of all things spiritual, they have the gall to presume themselves to be the most intelligent; that's weird!

Being proud of one's ignorance really isn't very scientific is it?

[Battis]

in their massive ignorance of all things spiritual, they have the gall to presume themselves to be the most intelligent; that's weird!


I made no claims to be "the most intelligent". In fact, I respect your faith. But, when I'm called irrational because of my views, I get a little ticked off.

[snowwolfe]

Char and Thunder, et al, isn't it interesting that those who aren't believers try so hard to convince us we're mental cases even tho they have no interest in us at all.

I often wonder what drives them, what do they hope to accomplish? If we are "wrong" then we lose nothing and have lived happier lives than they. But, if they are wrong ....

Seems our self styled intellectuals have convinced themselves we are wrong and we can't possibly know anything they don't know so they won't listen! Instead, they have chosen to believe "scientists" who are equally ignorant of spiritual things rather than seeing what is before them while insisting we can't possibly know or have experienced things of which they know nothing at all. And, in their massive ignorance of all things spiritual, they have the gall to presume themselves to be the most intelligent; that's weird!

Being proud of one's ignorance really isn't very scientific is it?

I have no desire to convince anyone they are mental cases. I thought my question was sincere and valid so I'll repeat it and add to it.


I believe in evolution. If evolution is true then man existed before Christianity was a solid belief. I often hear Christians state you can't get to heaven unless you accept god.

So, did every person on this earth who died before Christianity was a belief go to hell since they knew nothing of a god they must accept?

[wv109323]

Snowwolfe
The answer to your question is in the Bible. The Bible tells us that Cain slew Abel because of a jealous of sacrifices to God. Abel was the son of Adam. So God had a sacrificial system from day one.
I believe in creation because I can not grasp the reasoning of evolution.
By looking at nature, i have to determine that all the design had to have a designer. I believe that God created all things from nothing. I will pray for you instead of critizing.

[1hole]

... So, did every person on this earth who died before Christianity was a belief go to hell since they knew nothing of a god they must accept?

I doubt it but that's way above my pay grade. I really don't know, nor does anyone else and I think you know it so why do you even ask? And it's a specious "pot stirring" question, not worth a discussion anyway. All that really matters is that each of us has to decide where we stand, not where anyone else in human history has stood.

[dangitgriff]

Think I read somewhere recently that the number of atheists in America are neck-and-neck with the number of Christians...about 25 percent each.
Nope, not even close! Check this Pew Research poll out:
https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/

[Char-Gar]

Char and Thunder, et al, isn't it interesting that those who aren't believers try so hard to convince us we're mental cases even tho they have no interest in us at all.

I often wonder what drives them, what do they hope to accomplish? If we are "wrong" then we lose nothing and have lived happier lives than they. But, if they are wrong ....

Seems our self styled intellectuals have convinced themselves we are wrong and we can't possibly know anything they don't know so they won't listen! Instead, they have chosen to believe "scientists" who are equally ignorant of spiritual things rather than seeing what is before them while insisting we can't possibly know or have experienced things of which they know nothing at all. And, in their massive ignorance of all things spiritual, they have the gall to presume themselves to be the most intelligent; that's weird!

Being proud of one's ignorance really isn't very scientific is it?

What drives them is an easy question to answer. All folks who resist Faith, do so for one reason; They don't want a moral supreme being that holds them accountable for their actions and lives in general. They want be their own gods, and determind good and evil for themselves, thereby being accountable only to themselves. Where have you heard that before? (hint, try Genesis 1) In order to do this, they must find ways to dismiss those who believe otherwise. There are many ways they do this, but claiming the intellectual high ground over those ignorant and superstitious religionists, is probably the most common.

Despite their claims to superior intellect, they really are a very transparent and rather simple bunch of folks. Nothing much complex about them. I have been dealing with and observing them for 50+ years and their standard talking points are repeated over and over and over. That is why these guys are so easy to spot. They are as plain as rat poop in the sugar bowl, as the old saying goes.

It is a waste of time to argue, discuss and try to convince them of the reality of God and His son Jesus. It is best to just identify them and go around them and proceed down the trail. If life drives them to their knees and destroys their self reliance, they might be open to rethinking the whole issue. Absent that, they have little chance of being nothing more that fuel for the fires of hell. A sad assessment indeed, but that is the way it is.

[Thundarstick]

I have no desire to convince anyone they are mental cases. I thought my question was sincere and valid so I'll repeat it and add to it.


I believe in evolution. If evolution is true then man existed before Christianity was a solid belief. I often hear Christians state you can't get to heaven unless you accept god.

So, did every person on this earth who died before Christianity was a belief go to hell since they knew nothing of a god they must accept?

Did you happen to read post #52? The answer you claim to seek is there. How About a paraphrased version?

Romans
18-23 But God’s angry displeasure erupts as acts of human mistrust and wrongdoing and lying accumulate, as people try to put a shroud over truth. But the basic reality of God is plain enough. Open your eyes and there it is! By taking a long and thoughtful look at what God has created, people have always been able to see what their eyes as such can’t see: eternal power, for instance, and the mystery of his divine being. So nobody has a good excuse. What happened was this: People knew God perfectly well, but when they didn’t treat him like God, refusing to worship him, they trivialized themselves into silliness and confusion so that there was neither sense nor direction left in their lives. They pretended to know it all, but were illiterate regarding life. They traded the glory of God who holds the whole world in his hands for cheap figurines you can buy at any roadside stand.

24-25 So God said, in effect, “If that’s what you want, that’s what you get.” It wasn’t long before they were living in a pigpen, smeared with filth, filthy inside and out. And all this because they traded the true God for a fake god, and worshiped the god they made instead of the God who made them—the God we bless, the God who blesses us. Oh, yes!

26-27 Worse followed. Refusing to know God, they soon didn’t know how to be human either—women didn’t know how to be women, men didn’t know how to be men. Sexually confused, they abused and defiled one another, women with women, men with men—all lust, no love. And then they paid for it, oh, how they paid for it—emptied of God and love, godless and loveless wretches.

28-32 Since they didn’t bother to acknowledge God, God quit bothering them and let them run loose. And then all hell broke loose: rampant evil, grabbing and grasping, vicious backstabbing. They made life hell on earth with their envy, wanton killing, bickering, and cheating. Look at them: mean-spirited, venomous, fork-tongued God-bashers. Bullies, swaggerers, insufferable windbags! They keep inventing new ways of wrecking lives. They ditch their parents when they get in the way. Stupid, slimy, cruel, cold-blooded. And it’s not as if they don’t know better. They know perfectly well they’re spitting in God’s face. And they don’t care—worse, they hand out prizes to those who do the worst things best!

As always you are free to believe what you wish.

[Battis]

Despite their claims to superior intellect, they really are a very transparent and rather simple bunch of folks. Nothing much complex about them. I have been dealing with and observing them for 50+ years and their standard talking points are repeated over and over and over. That is why these guys are so easy to spot. They are as plain as rat poop in the sugar bowl, as the old saying goes.

Pretty much what I was thinking. Back at ya...

[wv109323]

As far as animals in heaven, there is a good likelihood there will be animals there. There is a verse in Psalms that goes something like this: God will preserve the beast and man
I don"t think present animals have souls and will be resurected.
Animals were present in the Garden of Eden and probably will be present in the world to come.

[rbuck351]

Interesting banter. Can anyone prove their point? Is there a God? If so, prove it. Is there no Supreme creator? If so prove that. I don't have the answer nor have I found anyone than that can positively prove their point. Oh, and don't bother trying to prove anything without proof of references

[1hole]

Do some folks think being "Catholic" is synonymous with "Christian" now? :rolleyes:

[nekshot]

Yup, the good ole original question. "Did God really say....?"

[Char-Gar]

Do some folks think being "Catholic" is synonymous with "Christian" now? :rolleyes:


Well if depends on whether you are talking at Catholic (Roman Catholic) or catholic (universal). All Christians are part of the catholic church, but only some of them are part of the Catholic church.

BTW: I have no quarrel with any branch of the Christian tree. Lots of hairs to split, but I try and avoid that.

[Char-Gar]

Yup, the good ole original question. "Did God really say....?"

The Creation story is Genesis 1 tells that "God said" and "God called", so yes God really does say. Now, what He says and to whom He says it, can be a matter of difference, discussion and at times argumentation.

[Rizzo]

Do some folks think being "Catholic" is synonymous with "Christian" now? :rolleyes:
Now?
Yes, but not just now.
I have always felt that way.

Cheesh!, of course Catholics are Christian.
Why wouldn't they be?

The Bible (mainly the New Testament) is their core belief.
Jesus is the Messiah, Savior.
They mimic the Last Supper with communion of bread and wine like Jesus instructed.

Out of curiosity, does your Sunday service do that?

[nekshot]

Yup, the good ole original question. "Did God really say....?"

I should have been more detailed. When satan came to eve and asked concerning Gods command of the tree of knowledge this was the original question. No need for man to question God's details of how to live until satan as a serpent posed this question to eve. The question came as "Has God indeed said, You shall not eat of every tree in the garden but this one? This question demands an answer and the answer only has two options; one God did not mean what He said, Or He did mean it. The fruit to those who disregard the correct answer is obvious thru out the generations of man. For me, I choose He did say it and I willingly embrace His provision to live on His side of the question!

[semtav]

Regardless of your beliefs, it is really hard, while sitting on a hilltop enjoying a lush Green valley below while thinking with the most incredible computer imaginable, having gotten there using the most sophisticated machine imaginable, to think it was all an accident???

Sent from my E6910 using Tapatalk

[Char-Gar]

Regardless of your beliefs, it is really hard, while sitting on a hilltop enjoying a lush Green valley below while thinking with the most incredible computer imaginable, having gotten there using the most sophisticated machine imaginable, and think it was all an accident???

Sent from my E6910 using Tapatalk

Like most wise guy teenagers I rejected the notion of God. However in 1960 I entered college and in Biology studied the Scientific Theory of Classification. I saw how orderly all of creation was and certainly not random. It was then I accepted the idea that there was a God who creates, as the vast and complex world was to well ordered to have been accident. So, one might say I discovered God through science and not in spite of science.

[dangitgriff]

Chaos Theory: Order out of chaos.
That’ll be 5 cents, please!

[semtav]

Chaos Theory: Order out of chaos.
That’ll be 5 cents, please!Yea. Put 5 3 year olds in a cluttered room for a million years and it will still be cluttered. Put 5 3 year olds in a very organized room for a million years and it will be cluttered for 999999 years 364 days, 23 hrs and 59 minutes.

Sent from my E6910 using Tapatalk

[1hole]

Now?
Yes, but not just now.
I have always felt that way.

Cheesh!, of course Catholics are Christian.
Why wouldn't they be?

The Bible (mainly the New Testament) is their core belief.
Jesus is the Messiah, Savior.
They mimic the Last Supper with communion of bread and wine like Jesus instructed.

Out of curiosity, does your Sunday service do that?

I'm unsure what you think "Christian" and "Catholic" means so I asked and you missed my point. I did not ask you if Catholics are Christians, I asked if you think being Catholic is synonymous with being a Christian. Your question about the ratio of atheists to Catholics suggests you suppose Catholic and Christian are interchangeable words; they are not. Catholic is simply a denomination, one of many; that's a BIG difference!

Christians can be Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopal, Church of Christ, etc., etc. or be unaffiliated with any organized group. Thus, your (questionable) statement about the supposed numbers of atheists equalling the number of "Catholics" means nothing in the big picture.

Now, you need to understand that the foundation of ALL Christianity is entirely found in the New Testament. In fact, the New Testament is what the gospel of salvation by grace through a life changing faith in Lord Jesus (not a denomination) for the eternal security of believers is all about!

I haven't a clue why you're asking a totally disconnected question about my congregation observing communion but, yes, we do it on a monthly basis. ??? (Doing it weekly, or even more, IS only a Roman Catholic thing.)

[Thundarstick]

Quote "(Doing it weekly, or even more, IS only a Roman Catholic thing.)"

Not so brother!

[wv109323]

For an unbeliever, it is impossible "to prove" there is a God. There is nothing tanigable that you can grab on to that tells you there is a God. You must observe nature and decide if design and order can come from choas and an explosion. Big Bang.Theory.
I can not grasp the "science" of evolution. The chances of evolution are as slim as wining the lottery every time for the next 10000 years.

[EDG]

Humans have very little ability to comprehend a million years much less many millions of years.
And the earth is an estimated 4.5 billion years old - that is billions with a B.
If you cannot grasp a lot of things it may just be a reflection of your inability to get past your religious programming. You really have to be self deceiving to believe that you should or can know and understand everything that has happened in the history of the planet. Your bible and your "grasp" cannot compare to the knowledge gained by science in the last 400 years. Try reading real science books for the next 40 years or as long as you have had the bible drilled into your head. If you cannot do that then you really do not want to know the truth about the universe.



For an unbeliever, it is impossible "to prove" there is a God. There is nothing tanigable that you can grab on to that tells you there is a God. You must observe nature and decide if design and order can come from choas and an explosion. Big Bang.Theory.
I can not grasp the "science" of evolution. The chances of evolution are as slim as wining the lottery every time for the next 10000 years.

[1hole]

Quote "(Doing it weekly, or even more, IS only a Roman Catholic thing.)"

Not so brother!

Okay Thunder, I know I don't know everything so I accept that. Guess I should have said is Catholics are the only denomination I know of that practices communion weekly or more.

[Rizzo]

...... Your question about the ratio of atheists to Catholics suggests you suppose Catholic and Christian are interchangeable words; they are not. Catholic is simply a denomination, one of many; that's a BIG difference!
You are confused.
I did not ask about atheist issues.


I haven't a clue why you're asking a totally disconnected question about my congregation observing communion but, yes, we do it on a monthly basis. ??? (Doing it weekly, or even more, IS only a Roman Catholic thing.)
Because like I mentioned "Out of curiosity".

[Char-Gar]

Okay Thunder, I know I don't know everything so I accept that. Guess I should have said is Catholics are the only denomination I know of that practices communion weekly or more.

Catholics, Episcopal, Church of Christ, First Christian and many more do it once a week. At the "Last Supper" Jesus told his followers to "Do this as often as you shall in rememberance of me. ". For centuries the church followed this injunction and based it's weekly worship around the Eucharist/Communion. That tradition is still followed by many branches of the Christian faith around the world. It is not just a Catholic thing.

Various churches build their worship around different things. In some churchs, the sermon/preaching is the center pivot of worship, others have music and for others the Eucharistic litergy is the main thing. None are right and none are wrong, they just follow different worship traditions. All have music, preaching and communion, they just have different emphasis.

[Char-Gar]

For an unbeliever, it is impossible "to prove" there is a God. There is nothing tanigable that you can grab on to that tells you there is a God. You must observe nature and decide if design and order can come from choas and an explosion. Big Bang.Theory.
I can not grasp the "science" of evolution. The chances of evolution are as slim as wining the lottery every time for the next 10000 years.

Scripture, both Old and New Testaments do not seek to prove the existance of God. It starts with the existance of God and moves forward from that point. Folks who seek proof that God exists will never be satisfied with any such "proof". It is a matter of the heart and soul and if folks lack that kind of heart and soul, they will forever wander seeking proof, for that which is all around them. They are like fish seeking proof that water exists.

As I said in previous post, they don't want God to exist. A supreme moral being calling balls and strikes on their lives, is odious to them. They want to play life by their own rules and be their own umpire. The bottom line is they want to be their own god. The ancient Jewish metaphor of Eve, Adam and the snake/temptor laid this all out. It has been true for as long as humans have been on this planet.The core/essence of sin is self deification.

All wisdom begins with God. Everything else is just human blathering and noise. Being intelligent does make a person wise, neither does education. I have spent considerable time among the Quechua people of the Andes and tribes of the Amazon rain forest and I have found more wisdom there, than any university in the world. A connection to God starts with being able to learn from life and the world around us. We should be open to the collective wisdom of the generations that have gone before.

[sparky45]

AMEN Bro Char-Gar; AMEN!!

[Char-Gar]

Old Texas saying..."Throw a rock into a pack of dogs and the one that howls is the one that got hit."

[rbuck351]

I see, feel, smell, taste, hear, measure, weigh, test and study things I know to exist to learn about them and how they work. I have failed to find any of these things work on God, just everything else, so I conclude that there is no God. But, that still does not prove or disprove the existence of God. The Bible is a book and many people write books so it proves nothing. I would very much like to prove there is a God as He offers everlasting life but I find no reason to believe other than I want to. This is not good enough for me as I know there are a lot of things I want that are not going to happen. So for all that say they know God does or does not exist, prove it. I Know that I KNOW very little but I try not to state that I know things I cannot prove. I believe that if something does exist it should be possible to prove it.

[Thundarstick]

You really think you have a different “heart and soul” than unbelievers?? Get off your high horse and turn to scripture. All have sinned and fall short... that means you too. Your beliefs do not change your worthiness, you still fail as hard as the rest of us.

When you pull your head out of your backside, you will realize you are not helping your cause. I do not desire to be my own god, and yet I still search for proof. You have created a false dichotomy.

So much is wrong with your core understanding of biblical tenets. I would suggest less church and more Bible.

Friend, since your a master of scripture, prove by scripture, that one can be saved outside of Christ and his church! If you are going to quote scripture, put it into context.

Romans 3

But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Rom 5:12-

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come. But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Yes, we all sin, are sinners, but in Christ we are justified. If your not follwing Christ, then, no, your hearts not in the same. You must have faith....

[Char-Gar]

For the record: I do not think I am better than anyone else, but I do think I am different from many folks. I am a believer and they are not. My faith tells me I am Heaven bound and they are not. Different yes, but better no. I am just a sinner saved by Grace.

"Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, I once was lost but now am found". I wish all humanity would accept the saving GRace of our Lord Jesus Christ, but that is their choice, not mine. I can only hope.

Brothers, do not let unbelievers, scoffers and enemies of Christ, intimidate you with false accusations of arrogance, pride, elitism and the like. They will use any low and underhanded approach to shake your faith and pull you down. They very often masquerade as folks seeking answers to questions in order to draw you in. Do not be fooled by their charade. They are the wolves among us.

[Thundarstick]

I again submit that just because you were given a gift does not make you better than any unbeliever...

If I gift you 2 million dollars, does that change your ability to manage money?? NO, you simply received a gift. So what makes you think you are able to give spiritual advice? You are a wretch like the rest of us, quit acting like a pompous fool.

You are not “justified” by any actions you have taken. You do not deserve any gift you have received. Further any gift you received does not change your sinful nature

It is indeed a heart issue, but it takes humility to realize your heart is no different than mine.

I'll gladly be counted a fool for Christ sake all day, any day. Thank you. Yes, hearts are all the same in the respect that all sin and fail and have the same opportunity, but they are not the same in the ability to accept the proof and believe the word, and follow Christ. I'll refer you to Jesus parable of the sower. The believers in Christ "saved" are still sinners, but will be justified through Christ, unbelievers will be lost. If you gift me 2 million dollars and I use it to start fires, wipe my rear, or build a compost heap, what good did the gift do? ALL are offered the gift, few receive it!

ps. You failed to provide the sculptural references for salvation outside of Christ.

[Char-Gar]

I see, feel, smell, taste, hear, measure, weigh, test and study things I know to exist to learn about them and how they work. I have failed to find any of these things work on God, just everything else, so I conclude that there is no God. But, that still does not prove or disprove the existence of God. The Bible is a book and many people write books so it proves nothing. I would very much like to prove there is a God as He offers everlasting life but I find no reason to believe other than I want to. This is not good enough for me as I know there are a lot of things I want that are not going to happen. So for all that say they know God does or does not exist, prove it. I Know that I KNOW very little but I try not to state that I know things I cannot prove. I believe that if something does exist it should be possible to prove it.

In interesting statement, a very clear repudiaton of concept of faith. I appreciate honesty, even if I do not agree with what is said.

[Char-Gar]

Let me see if I have this right. If you hold a firm Christian belief, you are supposed to pretend you do not, in order to not alienate those who do not believe. If you are convinced that you know what you know, then that is offensive to others. "Don't offend me and I might believe you" seems to be the mantra.

If Jesus and the Apostles followed that train of thought, then there would be no Christian faith to offend anybody. Jesus offended a WHOLE bunch of people and that is what put him on the Cross. The Christian faith by it's very nature, is offensive to many,many people. Being inoffensive, should never be the goal of any faithful follower of Christ.

"If my preaching offends you, maybe you need to be offended". It matters not if I am liked by the faithless or are offensive to the same bunch of folks. What matters to me is the faithful proclamaton of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. My evangelistic ministry on three continents has born to much fruit, to believe I am ineffective, because some unbelivers on a rinky-dink gun board think I am to strong in my belief for their taste.

[wv109323]

EDG
Would you please give me the title /author of some "real scientific books" that prove the theory of evolution. I would like to read them.
In my comments I wrote "I can not grasp" the theory of evolution. I feel I have to do what I believe is right for my life. But you imply that I should believe like you to be correct. Isn't that self righteous?
I ask, if I live my life according to the Bible how will that hurt you?
I will add one comment that I hope makes you think about your position. The brilliant minds of 500 years ago thought the the world was flat. Could evolutionists be wrong? Could the Bible be wrong? Both are possibilities but I must go with what "I" believe. You may do the same. I will pray for you.

[Battis]

I am not criticizing anyone's beliefs when I ask this question - I just have to know. If you don't believe in evolution, then do you believe that everything that exists today was created exactly as it is today?

[dverna]

Friend, since your a master of scripture, prove by scripture, that one can be saved outside of Christ and his church! If you are going to quote scripture, put it into context.


Rom 5:12-

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come. .

I question that sin entered the world through one man.

It seems to me the "original" sin occurred in Heaven. And many were involved... In some of the things I have studied, the stars may have been both stars and angels, and they were created on the same day....the fourth day.

Now, on the 6th day, "God saw all He had made, and it was very good." By this, I assume that God was not aware of any discord within in His creation.

Satan and one third (not an insignificant number) of angels were cast from Heaven onto the earth sometime after the 6th day....or at least that seems logical. And they were cast out because they had sinned...pride...the first sin.

Interestingly, some have concluded that eating of the forbidden fruit occurred a few days after the sixth day. So, within a few days, evil had been manifest in Heaven and Satan (and his fallen angels) were cast onto the earth to tempt Adam and Eve.

An archangel and his following of angels committed the first sin and those sinners were cast onto the earth. Sin did not start with man, but in Heaven.

If I have interpreted this chain of events incorrectly please guide me.

[Thundarstick]

I question that sin entered the world through one man.

It seems to me the "original" sin occurred in Heaven. And many were involved... In some of the things I have studied, the stars may have been both stars and angels, and they were created on the same day....the fourth day.

Now, on the 6th day, "God saw all He had made, and it was very good." By this, I assume that God was not aware of any discord within in His creation.

Satan and one third (not an insignificant number) of angels were cast from Heaven onto the earth sometime after the 6th day....or at least that seems logical. And they were cast out because they had sinned...pride...the first sin.

Interestingly, some have concluded that eating of the forbidden fruit occurred a few days after the sixth day. So, within a few days, evil had been manifest in Heaven and Satan (and his fallen angels) were cast onto the earth to tempt Adam and Eve.

An archangel and his following of angels committed the first sin and those sinners were cast onto the earth. Sin did not start with man, but in Heaven.

If I have interpreted this chain of events incorrectly please guide me.

In the scriptures I posted, is the author speaking of ALL sin, or THE sin that lead to mankind paying the price of a physical death, and possibly an eternal one? Ask yourself, is the author addressing all of creation, or men who might be saved?

[Thundarstick]

Your response was expected. It is also a reason why I do not adhere to the “Christian” label. I don’t want to be mistakenly associated with your rhetoric.

I don't think your being mistaken for anything you aren't. Friend, my prayer is God bless you with an understanding heart.

[wv109323]

Battis
To your question,Is everything that exists today the same as when it was created.
My answer is no. After the sin in the garden, thorns and thisiel ,pain in child birth,and man would labor to feed himself.
Before the flood,the earth did not know rain. The earth was moistened from the ground.
The tower of Babel introduced different languages.
At the time of Pelag the Bible says something like " the nations were divided". This may indicate that at some time all land was connected and broke up into our present continents.
In Genesis "giants" are spoken of and the ages of mankind was in the hundreds of years.
So there has been several changes since creation. The first 12 chapters of the Bible covers about 2000 years of which we are not given much detail. Most creationist consider the earth to be 6,000 to 6500 years old.

[dtknowles]

I have no desire to convince anyone they are mental cases. I thought my question was sincere and valid so I'll repeat it and add to it.


I believe in evolution. If evolution is true then man existed before Christianity was a solid belief. I often hear Christians state you can't get to heaven unless you accept god.

So, did every person on this earth who died before Christianity was a belief go to hell since they knew nothing of a god they must accept?

Christians believe that those that died before Christ was born could go to Heaven under a different set of rules. With Christ a new set of rules was established and they believe we must give up the old way for the new way. In this I believe they are wrong, the old way is still valid as are other ways. While Christians believe that the only salvation is thru Christ. Some of them even know that that means or are learning. Some will come to a bad end because they don't really want to know what sacrifices are required if you love Jesus.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Interesting banter. Can anyone prove their point? Is there a God? If so, prove it. Is there no Supreme creator? If so prove that. I don't have the answer nor have I found anyone than that can positively prove their point. Oh, and don't bother trying to prove anything without proof of references

It might not prove the point but there is God the creator of the Universe. Why, because there is a universe, if the universe spontaneously appeared out of nothing then the Universe is God.

Tim

[dtknowles]

To me that shows they are rather close. For every Catholic, there is an "unbeliever". They are popular and also your target audience, why the condescension?

It looks like the numbers are 70% Christian, 30% other for the U.S. sort of 2 to 1.

For the world the numbers are more like, 47% Christian, 53% other more like 1 to 1.

Breaking it down more 47% Christian, 25% Muslim, 19% Hindu and 7% Buddhist if you ignore all the nonbelievers.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Humans have very little ability to comprehend a million years much less many millions of years.
And the earth is an estimated 4.5 billion years old - that is billions with a B.
If you cannot grasp a lot of things it may just be a reflection of your inability to get past your religious programming. You really have to be self deceiving to believe that you should or can know and understand everything that has happened in the history of the planet. Your bible and your "grasp" cannot compare to the knowledge gained by science in the last 400 years. Try reading real science books for the next 40 years or as long as you have had the bible drilled into your head. If you cannot do that then you really do not want to know the truth about the universe.

I believe that Humans do have the capacity understand and appreciate millions or even billions of years. You just have to create a mental frame of reference. We can understand the difference between Millionaires and Billionaires or even budget deficits of trillions of dollars. Humans can understand but most don't try and aren't interested in learning.

Tim

[Ickisrulz]

Christians believe that those that died before Christ was born could go to Heaven under a different set of rules. With Christ a new set of rules was established and they believe we must give up the old way for the new way. In this I believe they are wrong, the old way is still valid as are other ways. While Christians believe that the only salvation is thru Christ. Some of them even know that that means or are learning. Some will come to a bad end because they don't really want to know what sacrifices are required if you love Jesus.

Tim

The New Testament is clear that the faithful in the Old Testament were "saved" through faith resulting in appropriate behavior (not perfect, but a live not characterized by sin)---see Hebrews. This is exactly the same for New Testament believers. Everyone that has or will be saved is because of Christ's death and resurrection. The difference is that New Testament saints know the mechanism of their salvation while the Old Testament saints did not. The "rules" never changed and no one was ever saved by following The Law or offering animal sacrifices--see Romans and Hebrews.

[dtknowles]

[QUOTE=Thundarstick;4726236]Friend, since your a master of scripture, prove by scripture, that one can be saved outside of Christ and his church! If you are going to quote scripture, put it into context.
.……….QUOTE]

How about Deuteronomy? You don't believe that Moses was saved outside of Christ and his Church?

"Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face, who did all those signs and wonders the Lord sent him to do in Egypt-to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to his whole land. For no one has ever shown the mighty power or performed the awesome deeds that Moses did in the sight of all Israel"

Tim

[dtknowles]

EDG
Would you please give me the title /author of some "real scientific books" that prove the theory of evolution. I would like to read them.
In my comments I wrote "I can not grasp" the theory of evolution. I feel I have to do what I believe is right for my life. But you imply that I should believe like you to be correct. Isn't that self righteous?
I ask, if I live my life according to the Bible how will that hurt you?
I will add one comment that I hope makes you think about your position. The brilliant minds of 500 years ago thought the the world was flat. Could evolutionists be wrong? Could the Bible be wrong? Both are possibilities but I must go with what "I" believe. You may do the same. I will pray for you.

I can help you understand the Theory of Evolution. What part of the theory do you not understand? Where do you think the evidence is lacking? What standard of evidence do you require. The "preponderance of evidence," "evidence beyond a reasonable doubt," or "beyond a shadow of a doubt?"

There is no smoking gun. The evidence for the evolution of species is pretty much beyond the shadow of a doubt. The evidence that Homo Sapiens Sapiens evolved from Homo Sapiens who evolved from Homo Erectus, who evolved from Homo Habilis who probably evolved from from Australopithecus, this evidence is beyond a reasonable doubt or at least the preponderance of the evidence. There is not even an accepted consensus theory for the origin of life on Earth.

Tim

[dtknowles]

The New Testament is clear that the faithful in the Old Testament were "saved" through faith resulting in appropriate behavior (not perfect, but a live not characterized by sin)---see Hebrews. This is exactly the same for New Testament believers. Everyone that has or will be saved is because of Christ's death and resurrection. The difference is that New Testament saints know the mechanism of their salvation while the Old Testament saints did not. The "rules" never changed and no one was ever saved by following The Law or offering animal sacrifices--see Romans and Hebrews.

You might be right, the rules maybe did not change and todays Jews are on the right path and Christianity is a hoax.

Tim

[Ickisrulz]

You might be right, the rules maybe did not change and todays Jews are on the right path and Christianity is a hoax.

Tim

God's covenant with Israel had to do with obedience to The Law in exchange for his blessing on the Nation as a whole and their continued occupation of their land. Israelites were not promised eternal life in exchange for keeping The Law.

When the nation rejected Christ, they lost their land and temple worship within a few decades as he predicted. If the New Testament can be believed, Israel remains outside God's family until she (or individuals) accept Jesus as the Messiah.

[dtknowles]

God's covenant with Israel had to do with obedience to The Law in exchange for his blessing on the Nation as a whole and their continued occupation of their land. Israelites were not promised eternal life in exchange for keeping The Law.

When the nation rejected Christ, they lost their land and temple worship within a few decades as he predicted. If the New Testament can be believed, Israel remains outside God's family until she (or individuals) accept Jesus as the Messiah.

It was not just the Israelis who got thrown out of Palestine but also the Christians. Bethlehem, Jerusalem, Jericho, Galilee all came to be ruled by Arab Muslims. Now they are ruled by the Jews again, lost are the Christians.

Tim

[rbuck351]

dtknowles

I don't believe God created the universe nor that the universe was created nor that God is the universe. I believe the universe has always existed but is not a being or alive. It just is. I don't know what created life but I believe that under the right conditions life is spontaneous. Doesn't happen very often but every few billion years somewhere in the universe new life happens.
If everything in the universe had to be created, who created God?

[Ickisrulz]

It was not just the Israelis who got thrown out of Palestine but also the Christians. Bethlehem, Jerusalem, Jericho, Galilee all came to be ruled by Arab Muslims. Now they are ruled by the Jews again, lost are the Christians.

Tim

The Christian Church was never tied to the Promised Land.

Christians look forward to what happens after their life here on earth. Old Testament Jews looked for God's material blessing during their natural lives and keeping the Promised Land (in peace). Old Testament prophets warned of wars and losing the land for not adhering to The Law; not of eternal death and punishments in the afterlife.

My point being, is that the ancient Jews (at least in Old Testament writings) did not think following The Law was a path to eternal life. Do they think that now? I don't know.

So, at least during Bible times, there were not competing paths to salvation. There were, however, differing ideas on how to please God; these being strict adherence to The Law (and laws supposedly based on The Law) versus faith as evidenced by love directed toward God and your fellow man. Jesus taught the latter which he backed up with Old Testament teachings.

[Char-Gar]

The New Testament is clear that the faithful in the Old Testament were "saved" through faith resulting in appropriate behavior (not perfect, but a live not characterized by sin)---see Hebrews. This is exactly the same for New Testament believers. Everyone that has or will be saved is because of Christ's death and resurrection. The difference is that New Testament saints know the mechanism of their salvation while the Old Testament saints did not. The "rules" never changed and no one was ever saved by following The Law or offering animal sacrifices--see Romans and Hebrews.

You are correct, I was working up a study of Romans today and Paul asserts that Abraham was Justified (made righteous) by his radical faith/trust. Even though he and his wife Sarah were of an advanced age, he trusted/believed in God to make him the father of a huge multi-cultural family. It was his faith/trust that caused this.

Among other things (salvation from the consequences of sin by faith/true in Jesus as God's true Messiah), Jesus was the mechanism through which God fullfilled his promise to Abraham, i.e. create large multi-cultural family around the world. Paul referenced this huge global family as a "new humanity". A new humanity and not another species which, is a biological term and not a theological concept.

This new humanity, like Abraham was justified (made righteous) again by faith/trust, but this time in Jesus as Lord and savior. Note, that being made just/righteous does not make Christian any less human, but God does not hold their guilt against them. They are not innocent, but are declared to be innocent by God's soverign will. This is what we call "grace", i.e. God's unmerited favor.

Romans is a fantastic piece of Biblical literature and most certainly Paul's longest and most through treatise on the Christian faith. I truly enjoy teaching Romans and am blessed all over again, every time I do the prep.

From first to last, a postive relationship with God is keyed by faith/trust. This is the constant. Desires to have proof before faith/trust wil be granted is antithetical to Biblical faith. Have faith/trust and then a person will have all the proof and more that is needed. People who reqire proof first, sadly will never experience the joys of being God's child on this earth and in the life to come.

[Battis]

Most creationist consider the earth to be 6,000 to 6500 years old.

And that is accepted as the truth?

[Thundarstick]

You are correct, I was working up a study of Romans today and Paul asserts that Abraham was Justified (made righteous) by his radical faith/trust. Even though he and his wife Sarah were of an advanced age, he trusted/believed in God to make him the father of a huge multi-cultural family. It was his faith/trust that caused this.

Among other things (salvation from the consequences of sin by faith/true in Jesus as God's true Messiah), Jesus was the mechanism through which God fullfilled his promise to Abraham, i.e. create large multi-cultural family around the world. Paul referenced this huge global family as a "new humanity". A new humanity and not another species which, is a biological term and not a theological concept.

This new humanity, like Abraham was justified (made righteous) again by faith/trust, but this time in Jesus as Lord and savior. Note, that being made just/righteous does not make Christian any less human, but God does not hold their guilt against them. They are not innocent, but are declared to be innocent by God's soverign will. This is what we call "grace", i.e. God's unmerited favor.

Romans is a fantastic piece of Biblical literature and most certainly Paul's longest and most through treatise on the Christian faith. I truly enjoy teaching Romans and am blessed all over again, every time I do the prep.

From first to last, a postive relationship with God is keyed by faith/trust. This is the constant. Desires to have proof before faith/trust wil be granted is antithetical to Biblical faith. Have faith/trust and then a person will have all the proof and more that is needed. People who reqire proof first, sadly will never experience the joys of being God's child on this earth and in the life to come.

Amen!

[dtknowles]

......From first to last, a postive relationship with God is keyed by faith/trust. This is the constant. Desires to have proof before faith/trust wil be granted is antithetical to Biblical faith. Have faith/trust and then a person will have all the proof and more that is needed. People who reqire proof first, sadly will never experience the joys of being God's child on this earth and in the life to come.

Many Christians of faith/trust will never experience the joys of being God's child on the Earth but at least they can hope for joy in the life to come. Many Christians lead lives of deprivation and persecution. Desperate for a better life they flee their homes to avoid rape and murder and starvation and try to move to the U.S. and elsewhere.

Yep, Biblical faith is the idea that you need to believe without proof. Biblical faith is the acceptance of the idea that the books of the Bible are the word of God and the only words of God and accept no other religious teachings.

The Bible does not bring joy to everyone who reads and accepts it but maybe it gives them the strength to live another day.

Tim

[dtknowles]

...……….. Most creationist consider the earth to be 6,000 to 6500 years old.

Do we have any Creationists here. Does anyone reading these post believe the Earth is less than many billions of years old and has not had a biosphere for many Millions of years.

Tim

[Char-Gar]

Many Christians of faith/trust will never experience the joys of being God's child on the Earth but at least they can hope for joy in the life to come. Many Christians lead lives of deprivation and persecution. Desperate for a better life they flee their homes to avoid rape and murder and starvation and try to move to the U.S. and elsewhere.

Yep, Biblical faith is the idea that you need to believe without proof. Biblical faith is the acceptance of the idea that the books of the Bible are the word of God and the only words of God and accept no other religious teachings.

The Bible does not bring joy to everyone who reads and accepts it but maybe it gives them the strength to live another day.

Tim

My experience does not validate your position. I spent 4 years of my life living and working among the poorest people of the Andes Mountains of Ecuador and the tribal people of the Rain Forest. I spent many nights around a camp fire exchanging stories and telling of our lives. I found their lives full of humor, laughter and yes even joy. The joy they found in what we would consider a hard and deprived life changed the way I look at life and general. In every way possible, I was blessed by my years among them and was changed for the better.

Around the fires at night, they would ask me "Cuentanos mas en cuando de Tejas, Hermano Carlos" (Tell us more about Texas) I would regale them with Texas tall tales, and laughter would abound. Texan has a never ending supplies of stories and they need not be 100% true. They knew I was "stretching the long bow", but that was part of the fun.

I also spent several months among the very poorest of rural Southern India and again I found joy and laughter. We Americans have stilted notion of what it takes to make people happy. The think the abundance or absence of things, is a key factor. I am here to tell you that is untrue.

[dtknowles]

My experience does not validate your position. I spent 4 years of my life living and working among the poorest people of the Andes Mountains of Ecuador and the tribal people of the Rain Forest. I spent many nights around a camp fire exchanging stories and telling of our lives. I found their lives full of humor, laughter and yes even joy. The joy they found in what we would consider a hard and deprived life changed the way I look at life and general. In every way possible, I was blessed by my years among them and was changed for the better.

Around the fires at night, they would ask me "Cuentanos mas en cuando de Tejas, Hermano Carlos" (Tell us more about Texas) I would regale them with Texas tall tales, and laughter would abound. Texan has a never ending supplies of stories and they need not be 100% true. They knew I was "stretching the long bow", but that was part of the fun.

I also spent several months among the very poorest of rural Southern India and again I found joy and laughter. We Americans have stilted notion of what it takes to make people happy. The think the abundance or absence of things, is a key factor. I am here to tell you that is untrue.

I think I was not clear. Yes, the poor of goods but rich of heart can be very happy. Even missing a meal now and then will not destroy a rich heart. Watching your child die of starvation, watching your sons being taken away and killed or your daughters taken away and raped. Watching your crops and home burned. How many are persecuted by gangs or terrorists or just fervent believers of a different faith.

I was not talking about the happy poor, I am talking about the desperate, the hopeless, persecuted.

Tim

[semtav]

Do we have any Creationists here. Does anyone reading these post believe the Earth is less than many billions of years old and has not had a biosphere for many Millions of years.

TimIf you are asking if I believe we came from a speck of something and out of complete chaos came perfect organization ?? Umm no can't go there !! I'd believe in creation before I believed in evolution. But I don't think at this point the human mind is capable of contemplating infinity. How long do you suppose that speck sat out there before it went bang?? But one could argue the same about God !! What did he do for infinity before he created the heavens and Earth.

All great things to lay out under the stars on a dark night and contemplate!!

Sent from my E6910 using Tapatalk

[Char-Gar]

I am a creationist. I believe the universe was created and did not just happen. The universe and all that is in it, is the product of intelligent design. That is where I stop talking about where the universe, earth and all that came from. I have no idea about the process. Lots of folks have lots of theories, but nobody really knows.

[Char-Gar]

I think I was not clear. Yes, the poor of goods but rich of heart can be very happy. Even missing a meal now and then will not destroy a rich heart. Watching your child die of starvation, watching your sons being taken away and killed or your daughters taken away and raped. Watching your crops and home burned. How many are persecuted by gangs or terrorists or just fervent believers of a different faith.

I was not talking about the happy poor, I am talking about the desperate, the hopeless, persecuted.

Tim

There is a small village in the Ecuadorian Andes named Caliata. It is three hours off the pavement in 4 wheel drive. There was no electricity and no running water. Water was hauled from a community well about a half mile away.

During the week, there are only woman and children there, as the men go into the towns and cities to find work. Most work as Cargadores (carriers of boxes and crates that are little more than beasts of burden). The Christian church there predated my presence, but it became one of my responsibilities.

On one trip there, a village elder took me to a high bluff, where the village dead were burried. He showed me several rows of grave and told me that 8 out of 10 children in the village died over a two month period, of some illness they did not understand. No doctors came, the governent did nothing. He went on to tell me their faith remain strong and the joy of the Lord still reigned in their hearts. That night we have a spirited worship service followed by great conversation around a fire inside a choza. I spent many happy days and nights there and still miss my friends in that place. While my Spanish was good, they worked hard to teach me Quechua. They laughted and told me that Quechua was the language of the angels and I would need to know it when I got to heaven. I did not prove to be an apt pupil.

Clearly you have never spent any time among the destitute Christians of the world. You set up worse case situations, to create the false impression that joy among Christians is confined to the developed world. Either you are doing so intentionaly to undermine the Christian's joy or are "gobbled up with it" and we say in West Texas. Contrary to you assumptions, the Christian faith is a functional faith, that supports a postive life even in the most dire of circumstances. I have never seen a depressed 3rd. world Christian and suicide is unheard of among those folks.The Christian is never without hope, even in the most dire of circumstances, for we know that our true home is not on the earth.

During my time in Ecuador, I acutally had Christian haters try to kill me on several occasions. Bullets, rocks and clubs did not scare me off. Therefore folks like you are small potatoes and do not intimidate me in the least. The only thing that really bothered me, was the cost of having a bullet hole patched in the drivers side door of my IH Scout. I was driving and the bullet was stoped by a cross member in the door. I don't believe the bullet stop was just luck. I know persecution for the faith up close and personal. An Ecuadorian Pastor friend, had non-believers go into this house at night and break both his legs, beating him with a shovel.

I have spent months in rural South India among the Christians there. Often they are attacked and even killed by Muslims and Hindu alike for their faith and just being different.

If nothing else, 50 years as a "soldier of the Cross", will make you fearless in the face of the scoffer and the unbeliever. I know you for what you are, for I have seen you all over the world. I see no purpose in debating you about the belief of Christians, but I will challenge you when you misrepresent how faith in Christ works in human life in difficult circumstances.

I will say that the American variety of Christianity is often weak,shallow and under developed, as the folks have not had to rely on it for bare existance. They always have credit cards and the government to pick up the slack. While America does have many faithful and dedicated Christian, it still is the land of plenty. Even those on welfare are far, far better off, than those I knew in the Andes and the Rain Forest. The Christian faith is a living Faith and a Faith for living.

[Char-Gar]

Clearly there are two species of humanity. And apparently only some are allowed to comment.

Yet still you freely comment and spread your anti-Christian blather. Still another of your falsehoods. You are not a different species, but you are not part of the New Humanity, created through faith in Christ. There are great benefits for being a part of the New Humanity and great consequences for those who are not.

I know you don't like being called out for what you are, for it degrades your fun messing with Christians minds and faith.

[Char-Gar]

Uhh no I don’t get to comment freely. Several posts were removed because weak minds couldn’t handle a discussion.

Careful what you call me, I may whine to a mod about you.

It was not me who dropped a dime on you.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

No one has to "drop a dime" on anyone here. The threads are routinely perused by the moderators who remove exceedingly discourteous and inflamatory posts. I think the procedure is to remove the entire thread, so as not to be appearing to take sides, or just because there is nothing constructive remaining to be said. If threads in which you are involved frequently disappear, that says something...... Personally, I like the system.

So, about two types of humanity: I do believe that two types exist. They are (1) most folks, and (2) those without a conscience. I've discussed the issue of conscience with others before, and believe that it is closely related to possession of a soul (spirit), but that one can have a soul and no conscience. If you do not believe in the existence of a soul, read no farther.

To me it appears obvious that a soul must exist, because a spirit is given by God, and returns to it's giver upon death. As we will be resurrected, the soul must exist to be returned to the new spiritual body. Also, all men will be judged, and there would be little point in judging a body with no soul, as when the body is dead it is dead.

Conscience, if anything, is more demonstrable than is a soul. Most people follow a relatively moral and relatively ethical path, whether due to religious beliefs, training, peer pressure, or fear of penalty of law is debatable, perhaps none of some for some, and some of all for some. That is what I would define as conscience, the inner feeling of what is right and wrong.

But, some have absolutely no conscience. Psychologists and psychiatrists like to refer to them as schizophrenic and anti-social. Some ministers might refer to them as demonically possessed. Whatever and whichever, they have absolutely no compunction or inhibition against performing evil acts. They have absolutely no conscience at all.

A case in point. Several years ago two ex-convicts home invaded a private residence where they found a mother and two daughters. The tied them up, raped them, and then doused them with a flammable liquid and burned them alive. No conscience existed in either of these two monsters, and after apprehension no regret was expressed. Serial murders and rapists seem to abound, and regret or remorse is not in their make up. Such evil actions have become so common that I doubt if any of us don't have at least some knowledge of the occurrence of a similar event. What makes the difference between a common crime and an abomination without conscience is that the act has no purpose discernable to an ordinary person. For example, a thief may steal for a variety of reasons, usually for profit. A rapist may rape for sexual gratification or a desire to inflict harm. But to rape three women and then burn them alive serves no purpose at all, unless it is to see them scream and suffer, in which case it goes to a lack of a conscience.

Day after day such monsters' mug shots are shown on the websites of the various news groups. One can stare at them for a long time trying to see any indication of what lies beneath. My experience has been that you can't tell a book by it's cover. Most of them appear normal in visage, some white, some black, some oriental, some old, some young, some fat, some thin, etc. -- but nothing in their face or eyes that says "I'm different".

What is different is that they can commit unspeakable acts of violence and have no remorse or pity. They do not have a conscience. This is the second type of humanity. Why don't they have a conscience? I do not know. Perhaps any of several reasons, but because it isn't there they can't be rehabilitated. Oh, this or that person found Christ while in prison and became a wonderfully worthwhile person. My contention is that if they did so, it was because they had a suppressed conscience that someone was able to reach and cause to grow. But most of them die as deeply steeped in evil as they lived, because nothing is there to nurture.

Beware of these people. They exist among those of us who do possess a conscience, and are difficult to identify before they commit their acts. Be cognizant of small indications like cruelty to animals and routine fracturing of the small laws, hostile relationships with co-workers, etc. The second type of humanity walks among us.

[dtknowles]

The Christian Church was never tied to the Promised Land.

Christians look forward to what happens after their life here on earth. Old Testament Jews looked for God's material blessing during their natural lives and keeping the Promised Land (in peace). Old Testament prophets warned of wars and losing the land for not adhering to The Law; not of eternal death and punishments in the afterlife.

My point being, is that the ancient Jews (at least in Old Testament writings) did not think following The Law was a path to eternal life. Do they think that now? I don't know.

So, at least during Bible times, there were not competing paths to salvation. There were, however, differing ideas on how to please God; these being strict adherence to The Law (and laws supposedly based on The Law) versus faith as evidenced by love directed toward God and your fellow man. Jesus taught the latter which he backed up with Old Testament teachings.

So Jews wanted to please God for rewards here on Earth but Jesus taught we should please God so we can be rewarded in the after life? I have been researching what Jews believe of life after death without learning much.

"There isn't anything after life, because Jews believe that life never ends. It just goes higher and higher. In the afterlife, the soul is liberated from the body and returns closer to her source than ever before.
The Torah assumes this in its language many times — describing Abraham's death, for example, as going to rest with his fathers and similar phrases."

Certainly God should be pleased with strict adherence to his law but now we should not look to be rewarded in the here and now. I guess that shoots down the prosperity Bible.

I like, "faith as evidenced by love directed toward God and your fellow man." I like it but don't see a lot of it.

Tim

[dtknowles]

If you are asking if I believe we came from a speck of something and out of complete chaos came perfect organization ?? Umm no can't go there !! I'd believe in creation before I believed in evolution. But I don't think at this point the human mind is capable of contemplating infinity. How long do you suppose that speck sat out there before it went bang?? But one could argue the same about God !! What did he do for infinity before he created the heavens and Earth.

All great things to lay out under the stars on a dark night and contemplate!!

Sent from my E6910 using Tapatalk

It was not even a speck. There was nothing, not time, not space, not gravity, not light, nothing what so ever. Nothing cannot last forever so something happened, let there be light and with that we got particles and movement and you can't have particles and movement unless you have space and time. It was that light and those particles that created space and time as they expanded the event horizon as God entered the Universe God created with a Big Bang. This light and particles did organize themselves to a degree but it really is still kind of chaos out there.

We certainly can contemplate infinity, fully understanding it is a greater challenge.

Before the Universe there was nothing no time, no space, no infinity. A void that is probably harder to understand than infinity, a void without substance or time, absolute nothingness not even God. Yes, God has always been but before the Big Bang there was nothing, no time, no God, no space.

Imagine an end to the Universe where everything collapses back to a single point, some unbelievable black hole that swallows up everything so that nothing is left. It would be a return to the Void, no light, no space, no time maybe even no gravity.

Tim

[dtknowles]

…..Clearly you have never spent any time among the destitute Christians of the world. You set up worse case situations, to create the false impression that joy among Christians is confined to the developed world. Either you are doing so intentionaly to undermine the Christian's joy or are "gobbled up with it" and we say in West Texas. Contrary to you assumptions, the Christian faith is a functional faith, that supports a postive life even in the most dire of circumstances. I have never seen a depressed 3rd. world Christian and suicide is unheard of among those folks.The Christian is never without hope, even in the most dire of circumstances, for we know that our true home is not on the earth...…..

I think you know what I was saying and are dodging the issue. I agree that joy among Christians is not confined to the developed world. I actually think that there is probably more joy in the developing world as the complexity of "modern life" causes much distress for Christians in America. They seem to lose track of what is really important.

My point was that being Christian does not guarantee a happy life, like you have pointed out it can actually lead to much persecution and strife. "The Christian is never without hope" but that does not feed the belly or stop the rapist. Of course life on Earth is only a precursor to happiness in Heaven.

Tim

[EDG]

All that you state is nothing but speculation and guess work.
No one can prove any of it and no one can grasp the billions of years that have passed since the universe began.
In time man will learn and know more and may solve many more of the mysteries of the universe.
But that learning will not come from reading the bible.


It was not even a speck. There was nothing, not time, not space, not gravity, not light, nothing what so ever. Nothing cannot last forever so something happened, let there be light and with that we got particles and movement and you can't have particles and movement unless you have space and time. It was that light and those particles that created space and time as they expanded the event horizon as God entered the Universe God created with a Big Bang. This light and particles did organize themselves to a degree but it really is still kind of chaos out there.

We certainly can contemplate infinity, fully understanding it is a greater challenge.

Before the Universe there was nothing no time, no space, no infinity. A void that is probably harder to understand than infinity, a void without substance or time, absolute nothingness not even God. Yes, God has always been but before the Big Bang there was nothing, no time, no God, no space.

Imagine an end to the Universe where everything collapses back to a single point, some unbelievable black hole that swallows up everything so that nothing is left. It would be a return to the Void, no light, no space, no time maybe even no gravity.

Tim

[dtknowles]

All that you state is nothing but speculation and guess work.
No one can prove any of it and no one can grasp the billions of years that have passed since the universe began.
In time man will learn and know more and may solve many more of the mysteries of the universe.
But that learning will not come from reading the bible.

OK, yup

[AK Caster]

I think you know what I was saying and are dodging the issue. I agree that joy among Christians is not confined to the developed world. I actually think that there is probably more joy in the developing world as the complexity of "modern life" causes much distress for Christians in America. They seem to lose track of what is really important.

My point was that being Christian does not guarantee a happy life, like you have pointed out it can actually lead to much persecution and strife. "The Christian is never without hope" but that does not feed the belly or stop the rapist. Of course life on Earth is only a precursor to happiness in Heaven.

Tim

Very true. Look at all the hundreds, if not thousands of Catholic priests who molested many 1,000's of innocent kids.

[Blackwater]

All that you state is nothing but speculation and guess work.
No one can prove any of it and no one can grasp the billions of years that have passed since the universe began.
In time man will learn and know more and may solve many more of the mysteries of the universe.
But that learning will not come from reading the bible.

Well, EDG, you just might be surprised. The Bible is the very FIRST tome to specify the EXACT ORDER in which the world was created. And when we read of Christ passing through a solid, locked door in the upper room after His crucifixion, did you know that quantum physics could explain just how that might happen? You dismiss the Bible as a book of "goat herders' tales," but it is SO much more than that! So stand by, and brace yourself for some surprises ..... IF you're man enough to admit them, of course.

[AK Caster]

I have attended my fair share of management seminars during my short life. At every seminar a simple exercise in communication was conducted. This exercise consisted of gathering 8-12 people in a circle. The first person would be handed a notecard with one sentence on it that was not difficult to remember. Each person in the circle was asked to pass along the sentence to the person sitting next to them by whispering it into their ear.
When the last person heard the sentence they were asked to repeat the words they were told. Every time I experienced this "training" the words from the first person to the last changed so much they were unrecognizable.
To think for a remote second the contents of the bible were not altered in a significant manner during the course of time is impossible to me.

[Ickisrulz]

I have attended my fair share of management seminars during my short life. At every seminar a simple exercise in communication was conducted. This exercise consisted of gathering 8-12 people in a circle. The first person would be handed a notecard with one sentence on it that was not difficult to remember. Each person in the circle was asked to pass along the sentence to the person sitting next to them by whispering it into their ear.
When the last person heard the sentence they were asked to repeat the words they were told. Every time I experienced this "training" the words from the first person to the last changed so much they were unrecognizable.
To think for a remote second the contents of the bible were not altered in a significant manner during the course of time is impossible to me.

That little exercise has been going on for decades. Everyone is familiar with it and many people intentionally screw up the message to be funny. At the very least, few take it seriously. To compare this to something like the copying and transmission of the Bible is not valid. The scribes who copied the originals over the centuries took great care so errors were avoided.

[Thundarstick]

We'll play a different game AK. We'll put 20 people in a loose circle, with the first to write the color of socks he's wearing on a pice of paper. The 2nd in line takes that paper to the copy machine, and makes a copy, returning the original to the 1st. The 2nd continuing likewise around the circle, with the 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th to check their copy against the 2nd, 6th, 13th, and 17th copy for accuracy. Person number one was only involved in the original color of the socks, but what would you think the chances would be that number 20, and everyone else, has the correct answer to, what color is number 1's socks?

This is a much better rendering of the way scripture was recorded!

[Guy La Pourqe]

You are entitled to your disbelief EDG. I used to sound just like you, once upon a time. It took me 53 years before I finally saw my Maker... right under my nose, in plain sight. I cannot be angry with you the same way I can’t be angry at a blind man for not being able to see.

But, absent your Maker, you and your fellows won’t survive to solve any mysteries. You’re falling from grace even as we speak and the consequences are fatal. Your kids can no longer distinguish between the genders, much less mate and parent their own kids. Your women fight for the right to abort their own children, and make war on their men. The blind whitewash perversion and evil and call it “alternative lifestyles”. At this rate you’ll be gone in a few generations at most.

The faith and the faithful will be here when atheists, socialists, and sexual degenerates are in the same historical trash can that now holds the Romans, the communists, the fascists and all its enemies in between.

[EDG]

Not one of the generalized comments you made about me are true.
To say those things without knowing who I am just tells me that you really ARE angry and you ARE afraid.
The hallmark of believers is their fear of death. So they latch on to the belief in the everlasting hereafter promised in exchange for their faithfulness. Fortunately for the world you are not in the majority and as time goes by your version of claiming to not hate will die and be forgotten. Your faith is something you perceive as an insurance policy- just another form of self serving belief. If you did not hope to benefit from the promise of a eternity of bliss I suspect you, like me, would not bother. You are simply rolling the dice at the Las Vegas of eternity hoping to hit the jackpot.
There is really little difference between christians and the others in the trash that you mentioned. If you go look up the statistics on the prison population of the USA you will find that the vast majority of the criminals incarcerated are christians- about 65%. Does that mean a christian is more likely to be a criminal? Apparently christianity is not very effective at keeping its believers from committing crimes and going to jail.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/234653/religious-affiliation-of-us-prisoners/

The drive to survive does not come from some silly religious faith. 1.7 Billion Chinese are proof of that. I can assure you there are perfectly fine people in this world who have never touched a bible and never will. You should get out of your insulated cocoon and see what the big wide world is like.

Quoting Mark Twain.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.”

Your book will not ever change because your god cannot be wrong - right?
In the mean time the world will move on as scientists lift the veil of the universe. The list of mysteries already solved by science is long and distinguished. Science will find the answers to many more mysteries while your faith finds NONE- zero.

Your faith claims it already knows all the answers while science just keeps searching for the truth. If you fear the truth and fear science you are lost.




You are entitled to your disbelief EDG. I used to sound just like you, once upon a time. It took me 53 years before I finally saw my Maker... right under my nose, in plain sight. I cannot be angry with you the same way I can’t be angry at a blind man for not being able to see.

But, absent your Maker, you and your fellows won’t survive to solve any mysteries. You’re falling from grace even as we speak and the consequences are fatal. Your kids can no longer distinguish between the genders, much less mate and parent their own kids. Your women fight for the right to abort their own children, and make war on their men. The blind whitewash perversion and evil and call it “alternative lifestyles”. At this rate you’ll be gone in a few generations at most.

The faith and the faithful will be here when atheists, socialists, and sexual degenerates are in the same historical trash can that now holds the Romans, the communists, the fascists and all its enemies in between.

[EDG]

It is virtually impossible that over the centuries and many transcribers of holy text that not a single one did not have some agenda or ulterior motive. Essentially you are saying that they all had a pure heart when it came to translation and that is a preposterous notion. You can look at the putrid clergy in today's christian churches as an example of how corrupt anything associated with any religion is.


That little exercise has been going on for decades. Everyone is familiar with it and many people intentionally screw up the message to be funny. At the very least, few take it seriously. To compare this to something like the copying and transmission of the Bible is not valid. The scribes who copied the originals over the centuries took great care so errors were avoided.

[EDG]

No I will not be surprised. The only thing telling you the bible is right is the bible itself.
That is known as circular logic. You can keep telling yourself you are right but that does not make you right. You have no external proof that any of your beliefs have any basis in fact.
The bible says a lot of things but why would you believe any of it? You would not believe any other holy book in the same manner? You believe because you have been conditioned to believe without thinking and without logic.

It would be possible for me to write a holy book of my own and make claims just a far fetched. Why would you not believe my version? My version would have more scientific proof than your version because your version has zero - none. Your goat herders were not educated men in the modern sense.
They were the tellers of tall tales. Heck they could not even read, write or speak English. Algebra had not been invented. Your christ certainly did not know any physics -quantum, relativistic or classical.
I know that you pick and chose the parts of the bible that you want to observe and those that you don't want to observe you ignore. Yet it is all supposed to be the word of god...
You would do well to study physics a little more. It tells the story of what really controls and runs the universe. Scientists solve the mysteries of the universe. Religion solves nothing.





Well, EDG, you just might be surprised. The Bible is the very FIRST tome to specify the EXACT ORDER in which the world was created. And when we read of Christ passing through a solid, locked door in the upper room after His crucifixion, did you know that quantum physics could explain just how that might happen? You dismiss the Bible as a book of "goat herders' tales," but it is SO much more than that! So stand by, and brace yourself for some surprises ..... IF you're man enough to admit them, of course.

[dtknowles]

Well, EDG, you just might be surprised. The Bible is the very FIRST tome to specify the EXACT ORDER in which the world was created. And when we read of Christ passing through a solid, locked door in the upper room after His crucifixion, did you know that quantum physics could explain just how that might happen? You dismiss the Bible as a book of "goat herders' tales," but it is SO much more than that! So stand by, and brace yourself for some surprises ..... IF you're man enough to admit them, of course.

Zoroastrianism predates Judaism and actually heavily influenced Judaism. The Bible's "EXACT ORDER" regarding creation is nothing to crow about it is simplistic and not informative to the point of being the basis of "Young Earth" Christian misinformation.

Tim

[Ickisrulz]

Zoroastrianism predates Judaism and actually heavily influenced Judaism. The Bible's "EXACT ORDER" regarding creation is nothing to crow about it is simplistic and not informative to the point of being the basis of "Young Earth" Christian misinformation.

Tim

Do you not allow that the stories in Genesis could have been handed down from one generation to another (written or orally) from the creation of man to the establishment of the Nation of Israel? These stories would have then been consolidated into the form we have now.

[dtknowles]

Do you not allow that the stories in Genesis could have been handed down from one generation to another (written or orally) from the creation of man to the establishment of the Nation of Israel? These stories would have then been consolidated into the form we have now.

I don't know about allow but I don't believe that all of Genesis is true history, I believe it is a few parables spoken first by Moses and then some actual true history of the Jewish people.

Tim

[Guy La Pourqe]

Not one of the generalized comments you made about me are true.
To say those things without knowing who I am just tells me that you really ARE angry and you ARE afraid.
The hallmark of believers is their fear of death. So they latch on to the belief in the everlasting hereafter promised in exchange for their faithfulness. Fortunately for the world you are not in the majority and as time goes by your version of claiming to not hate will die and be forgotten. Your faith is something you perceive as an insurance policy- just another form of self serving belief. If you did not hope to benefit from the promise of a eternity of bliss I suspect you, like me, would not bother. You are simply rolling the dice at the Las Vegas of eternity hoping to hit the jackpot.
There is really little difference between christians and the others in the trash that you mentioned. If you go look up the statistics on the prison population of the USA you will find that the vast majority of the criminals incarcerated are christians- about 65%. Does that mean a christian is more likely to be a criminal? Apparently christianity is not very effective at keeping its believers from committing crimes and going to jail.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/234653/religious-affiliation-of-us-prisoners/

The drive to survive does not come from some silly religious faith. 1.7 Billion Chinese are proof of that. I can assure you there are perfectly fine people in this world who have never touched a bible and never will. You should get out of your insulated cocoon and see what the big wide world is like.

Quoting Mark Twain.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.”

Your book will not ever change because your god cannot be wrong - right?
In the mean time the world will move on as scientists lift the veil of the universe. The list of mysteries already solved by science is long and distinguished. Science will find the answers to many more mysteries while your faith finds NONE- zero.

Your faith claims it already knows all the answers while science just keeps searching for the truth. If you fear the truth and fear science you are lost.

Nah. Like you, I spent most of my life refusing to see the obvious, and believing the absurd because that’s what everyone else did. Like you, I justified my intellectual dishonesty and laziness by wrapping it up in fake pop science and by putting on false airs moral superiority. Like you, I was afraid to read and study the bible because I as afraid of what I might learn, and what the cool kids would think of me. Like you, I thought the bible and faith were invented to control men. It wasn’t until after I started to study it, that I learned that the faith is largely about controlling and improving yourself. Such ideas do not sit well with the Intellectual poseurs so prevalent today. My friend, I know what you’re going to say before you say it. I’ve worn the same shoes you’re walking in now.

At the end of the day, if some homosexual or atheist or greasy hipster idiot wants to think I’m an uncultured and uneducable bigot because I’m a Christian... I suppose there is no harm in it. Whether you fall from this world believing it was Darwin and Murphy cleaning up the gene pool, or your Maker calling you home - it is no concern of mine. Our Maker will deal with each of us as He sees fit.

Best of luck to you.

[wmitty]

Guys, I still believe Jesus is saying in John 3v3 that until a man is born from above ( born of God) he is unable to comprehend matters of a spiritual nature. In Romans 9 v 22 Paul talks about our Creator having authority over the same lump of clay to make one vessel to honor and one to dishonor. All of us are guilty of sin against our Creator - I guess this is where we loose our non-believing guys - but the believers know this and our Creator has chosen to show forth His wrath and make His power known against the vessels fitted out for destruction while He also has chosen to make known the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy which He before prepared for glory. All of us deserve destruction; we are all rebels. By His mercy, some of us are going to be saved. Now the absolutely astonishing thing about this is that it cost our Father His perfect Son's life to satisfy His justice in order to redeem sinful men. Men who will share in the glory of the Father and His Son. It is beyond my grasp to understand His love for us.

Talking to a non-believer is like talking to a man born blind who not only insists that he can see, but that he can see much better than you and that you are the one who is blind.

Some of us will receive mercy; some of us will receive justice. But none of us will receive injustice.

[1hole]

Talking to a non-believer is like talking to a man born blind who not only insists that he can see, but that he can see much better than you and that you are the one who is blind.

Some of us will receive mercy; some of us will receive justice. But none of us will receive injustice.

Very good post. Both points are well and clearly stated.